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 Post subject: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:30 pm 



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 13
Location: Mulhouse - FRANCE
Hi all, 8)

after finally get my Baraduke pcb, and wrote a complete review (in french sorry),
and playing nights and nights on it (the more I play, more I love it !) :D

I found a sort of mystery in this game, :shock: and no web site can gave me an answer (non-japanese web):?
so it's time to launch an big investigation 8)
i'll not sleep at night without knowing the answer.

i found 3 "sprites" on the background of the game (you can't interact with them ,tried to shoot ,standing in front of them, nothing). they show always on the same place.
let's call them "artefacts"

here is a "sprite rip" from mame:
Image

-the 1st artefact is on floor 9 - it's a shattered helmet on a gun
-the 2nd artefact is on floor 21 - sort of extraterestrial skull with bones
-the 3rd artefact in on floor 33 - a totem ?


on this japanese page (google translation) you can see all the 3 artefacts in pictures
https://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fkhex.blog42.fc2.com%2Fblog-entry-681.html&edit-text=

so what are they for ?
have they any utility "in-game" ? (i doubt it)
are these artefacts a link to an exterior movie ? or manga ? or book ?
something the programmers wanted to honour when they wrote the game back in 1984 ?
or do they refer other namco games ?


so please help me to find the answer, if anyone knows Namco or Baraduke "experts" in japan... :idea:
(i guess Yukio Takahashi (game design) and Yoshihiro Kishimoto programmer) knows teh truth :roll: )

:) thanks !


Last edited by maldoror68 on Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:48 pm 


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First one looks like it might be a grave marker of sorts. Very cool bit of pixel art either way. :smile:
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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:02 pm 



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
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yup. maybe it's a mark who says "i'm a game programmer and i go this far with 1 coin" ? :roll:
it's surely a sort of grave :)

-------
there's a lead here : a book...explaining 20 namco games...but it's all in japanese and unavailable outside japan (arghh) :evil:

title :
Namco Game no Subete II
ナムコゲームのすべてII
SUPER SOFT MAGAZINE DELUXE Vol.5


pic:
Image

maybe the explaination is inside....or not :?


:x
i'm going back on google translate ,digging japanese web...


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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:17 pm 


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Are they in the PSX port as well?
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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:40 pm 



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
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don't know. i presume yes....
these kind of "port" is generaly an emulator packed with extras....
i don't think they were "loosing time" by reprogramming an old game to make a console port...

if somemone can try (namco collection vol 5) for ps1
there is even the x68000 port ( and the xbox360 port (namco museum virtual arcade [disc] )

still searching :)

edit : there is also a wii port in japan ?

you can see the "artefact n°1"helmet at 7:20 in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgXrjUhdOlk

and here is a pic of the "artefact n°2" in situation:
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/squ ... ke0069.png


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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:38 am 


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Probably inside references/jokes like the hidden panda in Strider.
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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:24 am 


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maldoror68 wrote:
these kind of "port" is generaly an emulator packed with extras....

This kind of statement is usually hearsay.
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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:45 pm 


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maldoror68 wrote:
don't know. i presume yes....
these kind of "port" is generaly an emulator packed with extras....
i don't think they were "loosing time" by reprogramming an old game to make a console port...


Namco Museum has actual ports, nothing is emulated. So yes, everything was redrawn.


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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:29 pm 


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CIT wrote:
maldoror68 wrote:
don't know. i presume yes....
these kind of "port" is generaly an emulator packed with extras....
i don't think they were "loosing time" by reprogramming an old game to make a console port...


Namco Museum has actual ports, nothing is emulated. So yes, everything was redrawn.


Redrawn? That stuff uses the same art as the original arcade games, no?


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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:04 am 


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Yeah, the graphics are the same. I mean "redrawn" in the sense that the game had to be rebuilt from the ground up for PS1, as opposed to simply running it off an emulator.

That's why Pacman enthusiasts for example don't consider the port perfect, because some details are different feom the arcade: http://pacman.wikia.com/wiki/Pac-Man_(game)


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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:19 pm 


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Ah, OK, makes sense now.


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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:10 pm 



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
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if i find some time this week ,i'll try namco museum vol 5 on my ps1 8)
we'll see if the 3 arteafcts are still 'in game" :P


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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:10 am 


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I thought I heard somewhere that the namco museum ports were recompiled from the arcade source codes, but I could be wrong.

Edit: I remember where I read that; the wikipedia article on Namco Museum.
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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:37 pm 



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check done : the 3 "artefacts" are at the same place in "namco museum volume 5"
the game is arcade perfect, plus they ad a "round select" on the psx version

all the rest is exactly the same (dip switchs ,test mode ,difficuklty settings ,patterns ,ennemies....)

i think (my own opinion) that namco museums contains tiny arcade emulators

---
*end of the ps1 digression*
----

that damn 3 cameos are probably internal developpers referrences... but what ? a movie ? an anime ? :roll:
i've checked SF movies and anime from 1980 to 1984 yesterday ,(even the macross anime and crusher joe) but nothing is matching...
the shattered helmet is not outland ,it's not alien (even space suit of the "victim"in the 1st episode is yellow) or maybe it's 2001 for the yellow space suit ?

that type of shatterred helmet ? maybe ?
Image

it's clear (look at the green background of the 1st level or the flyer) that Alien (the 1st movie) has inspired the developpement team of the game
(and the heroin is a woman in fact)

Image

Image

but for the "skull" ? and the "totem" ? :?:
the skull is huge (same size as the player) :wink:

could it be nausicaa skull , the movie was on screen in 1984 in japan... maybe :?: :idea:
Image


...to be continued :)


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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:52 pm 



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 13
Location: Mulhouse - FRANCE
i've got some news.
8) we gonna know the truth....this year.

stay tuned...


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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:00 pm 


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Necrothreading this thread because it's friggin' awesome. One comes here searching "Baraduke" and these gems come out... If the internet disappears tomorrow, shmups.system11.org would be the biggest loss.

who knows if our enthusiast French fellow ever discovered the truth...

Surely there wasn't need of the background graphics to imagine Scott's "Alien" being an huge influence on this game. Alien -> Baraduke -> Metroid.

Quote:
(and the heroin is a woman in fact)


Oh, she's much more than simply an "heroin™". She's an "heroin disguised in a space suit so you can't fathom her gender till the end, lost in an alien setting of mazes, trying to befriend little alien spores which at the right moment come in her aid™" :wink:

The Nausicaa reference though is a little less obvious, but I had the same hunch just fighting the first boss, very "Ohmu-like".

maldoror68 wrote:
in "namco museum volume 5" the game is arcade perfect, plus they ad a "round select" on the psx version


I was under the impression that everything that nm5 lets you do is already in the dip switches of the board, so the stage select should work in mame also? Same as in Pac-Mania (also in nm5)?
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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:18 pm 


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I haven't checked, but some Namco arcade games from the 80s have 'hidden' round selects (or can be activated from dips as I recall). Famously, Tower of Druaga lets you continue from any floor your previous credit reached, if you hold button 1 while hitting the Start button.
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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:14 am 


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Just recognized it's an old post, but I'm interested in claims like this.

cave hermit wrote:
I thought I heard somewhere that the namco museum ports were recompiled from the arcade source codes, but I could be wrong.

Because I'm pretty sure all of these 80s arcade game were written in assembly languages. "Recompiling" them from that kind of code is basically the equivalent of emulation.

I guess what's most likely happened though, if the source code was involved, is that someone followed the original assembly source step by step, and recreated it in a high level language like C. Would be curious to know more, though.


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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:15 am 


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About ports, graphical fidelity and direct use of source code...

CIT wrote:
Yeah, the graphics are the same. I mean "redrawn" in the sense that the game had to be rebuilt from the ground up for PS1, as opposed to simply running it off an emulator.

That's why Pacman enthusiasts for example don't consider the port perfect, because some details are different feom the arcade: http://pacman.wikia.com/wiki/Pac-Man_(game)


At some point even external developers acquired the tech needed to transplant arcade graphics 1:1. What may be trivial for an in-house developed port (direct access to all assets and source code) was an herculean task in the early days of 8bit, which often meant steps like "playing the original game as much as possible in the local arcade", or "beg the softhouse to acquire a cabinet for study". In other words, Japanese coin-ops were "redrawn" by observation before "photography" (access to source code) was a thing.

None of this must concern the Namco volumes on Playstation I guess, which for sure, even if ported, must have had much more than simple access to source code and assets (meaning often: supervision and approval by the original devs).

One would be tempted to think that graphic fidelity 1:1 was a thing of the 32bit era, but actually means to obtain it (barring faithful recreation by observation, that is) were in a little earlier. Two interesting examples:

Pete Andrew of Software Creations about Double Dragon genesis relevant quote:

"The project had boiled down to moments: the moment he figured out where artwork had been on the EPROMs."

Scott Marshall on Frogger Genesis relevant quote:

"I started off with an arcade emulator of Frogger downloaded from the Internet, with images of the original ROM data. [...] I did, however, locate the music and graphics data in the arcade image ROMs. The graphics were converted with a utility I wrote."

Although this Frogger is by no means an "early" example (released in 1998, long after the playstation Namco Museums, the first Digital Eclipse compilations and such), it is nonetheless interesting to see how the mindset was changing. The simultaneous SNES release was still following the old way to simply redraw everything from scratch (the "interpretation" approach).

However, once acquired the 1:1 graphic assets from the ROM, recreating the game was still a different matter. Quoting Marshall again: The game logic was controlled by a new program I wrote in 68000 assembly language. I was able to match the action by studying the video tapes and duplicating the positions, speeds, and sequences of all the sprites. Sometimes I was able to match motions of objects and rows by carefully timing them with a stop watch. Some functions were divined by studying the disassembled Z80 code from the arcade game.
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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:20 am 


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Sumez wrote:
I'm pretty sure all of these 80s arcade game were written in assembly languages. "Recompiling" them from that kind of code is basically the equivalent of emulation.


Isn't that the well kept secret of many "astounding" X68000 "ports"?
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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:52 am 


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X68000 has the advantage that it, as the name implies, is based on a 68k CPU which was very common in especially late 80s arcade games, allowing it to straight up reuse a lot of the actual assembly code used for game logic. :)

PS1 doesn't have that luxury.


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 Post subject: Re: NAMCO experts needed - Baraduke Mystery
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:24 pm 


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While Frogger for the MD uses some assets from the arcade, the patterns after stage 5 were written from scratch and very different from the arcade. Unlike the arcade, the game never gets to a point where two snakes are on screen at once. Hit detection seems to be off on the snakes tail. It's still possible to ride it, but the area to ride the snake seems to be smaller than with the AC version.


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