S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

[Gamer707b]

Does anyone have a full list of bmups from Konami?

I know of:

1. Crime Fighters (1989)
2. TMNT (1989)
3. The Simpsons (1991)
4. Crime Fighters II/Vendetta (1991)
5. TMNT II: Turtles in Time (1991)
6. Asterix (1992)
7. X-Men (1992)
8. Metamorphic Force (1993)
9. Violent Storm (1993)

Does Rollergames AC count? Based on a roller derby competition TV show, but still has beat 'em up elements. If you include console releases, there's also Batman Returns SNES, Batman Returns NES, TMNT II/3 NES, Hyperstone Heist Genesis, and Rollergames NES (different from AC version). The console TMNT ports also differ a bit from the AC versions.

Yes I was gonna mention a few of those too. I can understand forgetting about the other ones, but how can the OP forget Hyper Stone Heist. Lol. Actually he mentioned some that I didn't even know about.

[Sengoku Strider]

This is Final Fight for the Commodore 64 which, as you can see, has hit detection so comedically bad I'm not even sure it can fairly be called such:



It looks like the enemies' hit boxes are in their centres, which accounts for why the jump kick drifts through them for so long before knocking them over.

But what on Earth is going on with that first jump kick that knocks Guy over !? It never connects, yet seems to knock him over after passing some imaginary line suspended in mid-air behind him. Did they give Guy a 10 foot tall collision box and then put it in the wrong place?



Nope.



Nope.



KA-POW!

Or is the hit box on the enemy jump kick the size of a(n Oh, my) car, but only emerging from the rear knee?



Also, shout out to that amazing Damno sprite. Out on the streets causing crime looking like Earl dressed up as Egyptian Poochie. The walk cycle is pure *chef's kiss*

[BIL]

Aykshually! the name's Damnd As in The Damned - lots of band references in FF's enemy monikers. Axl & Slash, Poison, Roxy (Music), Abigail (repping the masterpiece LP in full King Diamond cosplay), and ofc, Sodom G. Oriber's another IIRC, but I forget the IRL reference.

...then there's other stuff like Andore The Giant, and frickin Two P, an expy of 2P from Forgotten Worlds. I wanna say Akiman actually said that, but I've a horrible suspicion I'm remembering Final Fight Revenge or even worse, Streetwise. Still, the visual reference works!

[TransatlanticFoe]

Ha glad I'm not alone, I read it as Damno for the longest time. Never played the butchered SNES port to be exposed to the censored names and, until the GBA version (a rather nice consolised interpretation), the only home port I played was the Atari ST version. A wonderful example of how to sell your game based entirely on box screenshots - static, it has the huge sprites and looks almost arcade quality (aside from obvious colour palette differences). Then it moves. And you try to play it. Hilariously it lacks swords, so Sodom just kind of runs around like a hyperactive toddler. There's stuff like SMS Golden Axe that's kinda janky but playable and impressive for the hardware, then there's stuff like ST Final Fight that just... get in the sea.

[Sengoku Strider]

Aykshually! the name's Damnd As in The Damned - lots of band references in FF's enemy monikers. Axl & Slash, Poison, Roxy (Music), Abigail (repping the masterpiece LP in full King Diamond cosplay), and ofc, Sodom G. Oriber's another IIRC, but I forget the IRL reference.

...then there's other stuff like Andore The Giant, and frickin Two P, an expy of 2P from Forgotten Worlds. I wanna say Akiman actually said that, but I've a horrible suspicion I'm remembering Final Fight Revenge or even worse, Streetwise. Still, the visual reference works!

It's funny, I was literally thinking "Damnd" as I was typing, yet my fingers went Damno anyway.

I only found out about the rock references the other week. Outside of Axl, Slash & maybe Sid I don't know if I would have ever connected those dots. I've never heard of King Diamond or Sodom. They spelled Simmons wrong (Simons). Billy is as generic a name as it gets. Roxy makes me think of the evil pop star from Jem and the Holograms, rather than anything to do with Bryan Ferry.



It's not like Jojo's where the references with characters like Robert E.O. Speedwagon, Oingo Boingo, Wham or Lisa Lisa are so weird and specific that you can't miss them.

The 2p thing is correct. It might be in an interview on shmuplations somewhere, i've known that one for a while. He shows up in Ken's stage in Alpha 2 as well. The Andre the Giant thing I did manage to figure out on my own once I got older, learned some Japanese and realized Andore wasn't an-dorr but an-dor-ay. He at least bears some resemblance (particularly in SF III), so I could make that connection.

I just looked up G. Oriber. He's another one who would have been utterly impossible for me to guess, but he turned out to be a fun wikipedia ride.

His name in katakana is gurahamu oriba-. Backtranslating that into Graham Oliver is manageable enough. That turns out to be the guitarist for a band named Saxon I've never heard of, but they've got 24 albums so that's something. But what's really interesting is Harry Shearer followed them around for research for a couple of days - they just thought he was a rock journalist - and they became part of the basis for Spinal Tap. Which I found incredibly validating, because I thought they seemed exactly like a band who would have been part of the basis for Spinal Tap:



G. Oriber is 2nd from the left. In Spinal Tap Shearer played Derek Smalls, the moustachioed one who got caught in airport security with a foil-wrapped cucumber down his pants. Just looking at that photo, he's like a mash-up of half that band.



And this is the same Harry Shearer who does the voices of Mr. Burns & Ned Flanders on the Simpsons. 30 years and I had no idea.

So anyway, that's who G.Oriber is.

Ha glad I'm not alone, I read it as Damno for the longest time. Never played the butchered SNES port to be exposed to the censored names and, until the GBA version (a rather nice consolised interpretation), the only home port I played was the Atari ST version. A wonderful example of how to sell your game based entirely on box screenshots - static, it has the huge sprites and looks almost arcade quality (aside from obvious colour palette differences). Then it moves. And you try to play it. Hilariously it lacks swords, so Sodom just kind of runs around like a hyperactive toddler. There's stuff like SMS Golden Axe that's kinda janky but playable and impressive for the hardware, then there's stuff like ST Final Fight that just... get in the sea.

The shorthand description for the Atari ST seems to be "The underprivileged Amiga." So many shared games between them, but the Atari always seemed to come out the worse for it. I know that thing was revered for a long time as a great music production computer though, due to its affordability and built-in MIDI interface. I know Fatboy Slim did his first album on it & plenty of others used it for Cubase as well.

And to its credit the ST still comes out ahead of my favourite punching bag of late, the ZX Spectrum. Final Fight on the Spectrum borders on visual incomprehensibility, and the programming....well, see for yourself:

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

To be honest, I generally believe that all Capcom belt scrollers have cheap boss fights, but the tryptic of this title, Captain Commando and Knights of the Round easily take the top spot. I do not exaggerate by saying that half of their boss fights in bmups were designed to just kill off players, with next to zero concerns on balance (or: "you either learn the bosses or you GTFO"). Personally I believe that Captain Commando is their worst offender, though: st. 4 and final boss are absolutely infuriating, as they revolve around cheap tricks based on the dash attack (or death).

Yeah, no doubt. Most of them seem to have some nasty, absurd boss somewhere - KoD's Black Knight, Cadillacs's Slice / Slisaurs, ToD's Black Dragon. I played a bit of Captain Commando a few weeks ago and was really put off by it - the basic combat is enjoyable enough (though certainly not up to the level of Final Fight) but some of those bosses are miserable. Shtrom Jr. seems nearly impenetrable and yeah, Monster is completely ridiculous - feels like a low-tier boss right out of one of the sloppier Konami games. I want to get into that game but some of those fights are discouraging. (Nice job getting the clear on Simpsons, also!)

Mustapha dash attack is only vital in the Slice and Slisaurs fight. Against most enemies, his best string is default combo holding up or down to throw, and cancel the throw into that down+up attack. Amazing range on his jab and ability to corner trap a lof of annoying enemies (and stg 6 boss) off screen. Hardly a one trick pony character, there's no need to abuse drop kick 24/7, but yeah it's godly.

If you insist on Mess, know that Desperation Move (A+B) gives generous invincible frames even after the move ends. So you can actually whiff AB, run up to a Slisaur knifing you up and grab them. Of course you will need to space yourself perfectly to do this, which is easier said than done. This is feasible with every character except Mustapha, cause his Vertical Tatsu animation is too lenghty.

Cadillacs is my favorite bare handed beat'em up. My only regret is that I've never got the clear with Hannah Dundee and didn't insist more on it. Never got past the Slisaurs with her. I've 1cced the game with the other 3 characters though.

I would recommend a first clear with Mustapha. Just like people recommend Lancelot for a first Knights of the Round clear. Mess destroys the game overall, but he has a bad match up against the Slisaurs, needing a bit more experience with their patterns to do well. I think even Jack has a more favourable time against them.
When you make to the last stage, GG. The 1cc is guaranteed. Just enjoy the music and take the stage slowly.

I need to put more time into Mustapha for sure. I've been playing sporadic credits with him to feel the character out more and I just can't get the hang of canceling his down-up special from his throws. No matter what timing I cancel with, it always seems to do less damage than just doing an attack string - throw combo. I know there must be something to it given that I've seen runs that use that technique heavily with him, but for now, I just can't get the hang of the character - it feels a bit like playing with a handicap compared to Mess's damage. He really can handle Slice much more easily, though, and my practice on the Slisaurs fight hasn't gotten me as far as I'd like, so I'm definitely considering rolling with Mustapha.

-

Lacking dedication, I've been playing a fair amount of Final Fight the last few days. I should be digging more into Cadillacs, really, but FF has been calling to me. Having thrown away my principles and switched over to Cody (who is still a tremendously fun character, I can't get enough of his backwards jump - knee), I've finally managed to at least clear into the final stage. Glad to have finally learned the Abigail fight after having him have been the end of my runs back when I first got into the game years ago - he's an interesting puzzle-like boss, with his weird alternating search and attack modes. The last level is definitely no joke though.

[Randorama]

BryanC: thanks, I simply do not know much about Konami console games* ("ewww, console games!", I often say just to upset BIL ), so I was thinking of their arcade output. Isn't Rollergames AC a Williams games, though? I am only finding info that links this game to them, not console games.

Sir Ilpalazzo: thanks; I must say that the JAA version of The Simpsons feels like a console port of the EAA and UA versions (...or whatever the code for the EU, US versions is). The fact that players can stock up on extra energy makes the game really easy, especially in the few spots that act as bottlenecks of some sort (st. 4's boss, st. 6 in general, and Mr. Burns to some extent). I want to try out the other versions to see if they are just a bit harder. Honestly, I think that all bosses are easy enough that reaching them with full energy should suffice to beat them (but st. 4's, the drunkard, is quite cheap).

On Captain Commando: I believe that Capcom designed this with autofire or fast tapping in mind. Shtrom jr. (and sr. on st. 6) become much easier if you can punch away their harpoon attacks. St. 4's boss, "Monster", revolves instead around doing charge attacks at a pixel-perfect distance. He has this erratic behaviour whereby he will lower his guard if the characters are far enough and can prepare a dash attack (e.g. the flamethrower attack with Captain Commando) to hit him...provided that he does not decide to just avoid or jump at you, or whatever random decision he takes. I am not following you on Knights of the Round, though - aren't the two king bosses (st. 3 and st. 7) the nightmarish ones?




*Just to go off a wild tangent, I think that I might have tried a few credits of that Dracula thingy game/series/etc., and I might have seen videos of the Horror thingy on PS. I guess that they had some other stuff going for them, didn't they? Did Konami do something with football/soccer? Ewwww, the divers' club ball game!

[velo]

On Captain Commando: I believe that Capcom designed this with autofire or fast tapping in mind. Shtrom jr. (and sr. on st. 6) become much easier if you can punch away their harpoon attacks. St. 4's boss, "Monster", revolves instead around doing charge attacks at a pixel-perfect distance. He has this erratic behaviour whereby he will lower his guard if the characters are far enough and can prepare a dash attack (e.g. the flamethrower attack with Captain Commando) to hit him...provided that he does not decide to just avoid or jump at you, or whatever random decision he takes.

imo Shtrom Jr. is actually a pretty well-designed fight, even though he's a sudden brick wall of difficulty. You have to watch him, but all of his behaviors can be reacted to and dealt with. It's never the same fight twice. Monster is gimmicky but the key is getting pickups by breaking his barrels by extrajoying. Unless the rng totally screws you, it's a fun fight. If the throw loop exploit on the final boss was intentional, I almost have to respect it. It's tense doing it the cheesy way and not at all worth it the honest way.

Doppel just sucks and if you get bad RNG or flub killing the fat dudes (who drop stuff, hopefully) before the fight I don't think there's a way out, your run = done. The two Shtroms in the ocean base are ridiculous but can be cheesed with braindead autofire and a little luck.

Overall I think CC's aren't worse than average. I dropped Warriors of Fate because I couldn't deal with the horseman boss in the fiery bit. When on foot he seems to go into i-frames and run for the horse whenever he fancies. I never figured out the trick, if there is one. Bosses in that game seem to be able to kill you almost with one attack if the hit box wings you wrong.

As great as Capcom's b-e-us are, it's a breath of fresh air to switch to something like Zero Team and fight bosses with normal tactics.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Randorama: I actually meant King of Dragons, not Knights of the Round - though it's a bad example, because although King of Dragons does have a handful of bosses who are leagues above the rest (the royal knights are tremendously harder than anything else in the game, even though the wizard can trivialize them as he does everything else), even those harder bosses aren't walls in the same way Monster, Slisaurs, or Arlon can be.

imo Shtrom Jr. is actually a pretty well-designed fight, even though he's a sudden brick wall of difficulty. You have to watch him, but all of his behaviors can be reacted to and dealt with. It's never the same fight twice. Monster is gimmicky but the key is getting pickups by breaking his barrels by extrajoying. Unless the rng totally screws you, it's a fun fight. If the throw loop exploit on the final boss was intentional, I almost have to respect it. It's tense doing it the cheesy way and not at all worth it the honest way.

Doppel just sucks and if you get bad RNG or flub killing the fat dudes (who drop stuff, hopefully) before the fight I don't think there's a way out, your run = done. The two Shtroms in the ocean base are ridiculous but can be cheesed with braindead autofire and a little luck.

Overall I think CC's aren't worse than average. I dropped Warriors of Fate because I couldn't deal with the horseman boss in the fiery bit. When on foot he seems to go into i-frames and run for the horse whenever he fancies. I never figured out the trick, if there is one. Bosses in that game seem to be able to kill you almost with one attack if the hit box wings you wrong.

As great as Capcom's b-e-us are, it's a breath of fresh air to switch to something like Zero Team and fight bosses with normal tactics.

This makes me glad to hear, potentially - I generally like Captain Commando and would prefer to be wrong. What do you feel is the proper way to deal with Shtrom Jr.? My big issue with the fight is the divekick. It comes out very quickly, has massive reach, tracks you, and the telegraph for it is the same as his standard jump (which often leads into his strafe attack). I think there is some fun in the fight, it's satisfying reacting to or anticipating his strafe in order to punish it - but the divekick is a really overbearing tool. Him being able to do it anytime, sometimes even while in hitstun from your attack string, and the fact that it looks identical to his regular jump / strafe - which means he has two attacks with the same telegraph but which require you to commit to two mutually exclusive responses - make the fight feel like too much of a lottery in my experience.

The refight in stage 6 is easier though, funnily enough. It would probably be absurd to do the fight straight but being able to sit in the corner just lets you cheese it at least.

I really don't know about Monster though, nothing about that fight feels enjoyable or fun. He's immune to everything in your arsenal save off-axis dash attacks (and your special), but he can also just choose to stomp on you - an instant attack with a large hitbox - at anytime. I've spent time practicing him, and if hitting him with off-axis dash attacks were at least consistent, I'd be more forgiving of the fight, but he really can just launch into his jumping attack whenever he wants, which seems unmanageable.

I did play a bit of Warriors of Fate earlier. It's interesting that you mention that game and its boss fights, because it seemed to me that it has some of the most reasonable and immediately graspable bosses out of all of Capcom's arcade brawlers. Not to say they're my favorites, but at least none of the first six stage's bosses seem like they have any completely overbearing options or require unintuitive strategies; they're all just drawn-out crowd control exercises. (The stage 2 boss running back to his horse - which does contact damage to you - seemed the only obnoxious thing from the first six stages, though you can at least mitigate that by either getting the horse offscreen or at least avoiding getting in-between him and his horse.)

[it290]

This is Final Fight for the Commodore 64 which, as you can see, has hit detection so comedically bad I'm not even sure it can fairly be called such:

I'm not sure what sort of arcane chicanery was used to develop the C64 version of FF, as programming for that computer is the stuff of multitudes of grimoires, but I can tell you the VIC-II chip supports hardware collision detection for sprites which is triggered when a visible pixel from a hardware sprite collides with those from another. That detection is reasonably reliable and also a touch more accurate than the typical hitbox, since the visible pixel 'geometry' of the sprite is actually considered.

That's almost certainly not what's happening here, as the characters are much larger and more complex than what a C64 hardware sprite is capable of, yet at the same time the modern concept of a morphing hitbox as derived from fighters etc was probably also too complex to implement. My guess is that the characters have bounding boxes of fixed geometry and hit/hurt flags that get toggled off depending on what's happening in the game, and that this detection happens a bit after drawing each frame. But would be really interesting to see a teardown of this one to see what kind of goofy hacks the programmers actually used.

[it290]

And to its credit the ST still comes out ahead of my favourite punching bag of late, the ZX Spectrum. Final Fight on the Spectrum borders on visual incomprehensibility, and the programming....well, see for yourself:

I'm not about to champion the Spectrum, but this is a bit of an unfair comparison and punching out of the system's weight class a fair bit. A Final Fight port to ZX Spectrum is a bit like imagining Elden Ring on the Dreamcast... it's feasible, but won't shake out in any way that really envisions what the game should be about. The Speccy was fully capable of pulling its weight on games like Elite, though. The fact that a Final Fight port even exists speaks more to the longevity of the platform than its deficiencies.

[Randorama]

General:

I just 1-cc'ed X-Men (The Konami one, of course), on the last hit of the last life...I was about to punch the screen if Magneto was going to win it (I was using Storm).
I will prepare a write-up, but this game's final boss is as badly designed as Geld in Violent Storm, if you want a quick comparison.
The whole "The final boss gets random i-frames whenever he likes it" would deserve a punch in the mouth of the programmers, honestly.

velo: OK, just to be sure...I think that "cheap" design for bosses (in bmups) involves bosses that can only be beaten with 1-2 methods max ("cheap" in the sense that you have a poor choice of methods). I don't think that it is bad design, as I think that other aspects fall under this label. I'd agree that a better word than "cheap" would be useful, in the discussion (...suggestions?).

Shtrom jr. in Captain Commando allows players to be creative as long as they react fast, so I think that it's hard but somehow "rich" (as opposed to "cheap").
Monster is "cheap," in the sense that there are 1-2 safe methods that I know as working reliably: charge shots at a distance, or exploit barrels and special attack if this fails.

I agree on the other bosses, which I would find cheap for these reasons, too, but not badly designed (...except for the two shtroms: I always wanted to kill both).
I actually like Captain Commando but it is a grudge match, for me: one day I will finally learn Genocide, the final boss, and 1-CC it. 31 years in the making and counting...

Sir Ilpalazzo: sorry but somehow I read Knights of the Round, not sure why The black night and the twin knights on st. 12 of King of the Dragons are actually rather nasty with the melee characters. Not slisaurs-nasty, but they require careful hit-and-dodge/block games and complete focus on their sudden dashes (i.e. I'd consider them cheap).

One more comment (general):

Warriors of Fate is a game that I 1-CC'ed, and wrote a bit a few years ago, in one of the previous pages of this thread.
I generally think that the last 3 bosses are the only relevant problems in the game - they are also crowd control exercises, but they reach extreme levels in this aspect (I got stuck on st. 7 for ages).
The game is also really plodding and all enemies have too much energy, though expert players can play it at speed (I believe that there are quite a few speed runs on youtube, even).

Not a bad game, but the "slugfest of hell" feeling may be off-putting.

[Randorama]

Double Post, but I think that this site could be useful (for this thread and the "RMFK2KWTF" and the single screen threads, too).
Some games are missing (e.g., Seibu's Zero Team and some choices are questionable (e.g., DECO's Dark Seal is an isometric action/shooting game), and some years are wrong (e.g., Taito's Lightbringer should be 1994), but the site covers plenty of titles.
I think that BIL would adore the flyers for Crime Fighters 1 & 2 used in the list

I find it funny to re-discover that the Neo Geo actually had quite a few bmups ..though I'd like to gloss over the fact that they were mostly rubbish (but I played all of them and even 1-CC'ed a couple ).

[velo]

This makes me glad to hear, potentially - I generally like Captain Commando and would prefer to be wrong. What do you feel is the proper way to deal with Shtrom Jr.? My big issue with the fight is the divekick. It comes out very quickly, has massive reach, tracks you, and the telegraph for it is the same as his standard jump (which often leads into his strafe attack). I think there is some fun in the fight, it's satisfying reacting to or anticipating his strafe in order to punish it - but the divekick is a really overbearing tool. Him being able to do it anytime, sometimes even while in hitstun from your attack string, and the fact that it looks identical to his regular jump / strafe - which means he has two attacks with the same telegraph but which require you to commit to two mutually exclusive responses - make the fight feel like too much of a lottery in my experience.

The refight in stage 6 is easier though, funnily enough. It would probably be absurd to do the fight straight but being able to sit in the corner just lets you cheese it at least.

Shtrom can be hit out of the first part of his dive kick (the somersault) by everybody except Baby, who has to superjoy on reaction. So, I stick to being either directly above/below him or diagonally across the screen (where I'll be above/below if he switches sides). And I don't pick Baby unless I'm feeling brave.

I manage to screw up the ocean base fight from time to time. Some characters seem to have a much easier time with it. Mixing it up and fighting them the normal way is more semi-doable than it looks. Sometimes you can trap them and jab the to death right after they come through the door, without having to hide in the corner, but it seems luck-based. (playing with the rewind function in Capcom Arcade Stadium, I can't find a way to guarantee it will work)

velo: OK, just to be sure...I think that "cheap" design for bosses (in bmups) involves bosses that can only be beaten with 1-2 methods max ("cheap" in the sense that you have a poor choice of methods). I don't think that it is bad design, as I think that other aspects fall under this label. I'd agree that a better word than "cheap" would be

"Shallow"? "Inflexible"? A boss like Sodom, I'm not even sure he was meant to be consistently beatable without dying. All the stuff that works looks like a programming oversight. (or so it seems, I'm no good at the Sodom fight)

I actually agree that WoF's bosses are well-designed, at least up to that one dude I was whining about (the game's too hard for me, but I that's not necessarily a design flaw...). I like it when it's just one strong dude with more-or-less normal properties and crowd support (like WoF, Zero Team, or Captain Commando's Yamato). With CC, I think they were trying to make every boss feel different, with mixed results. It would be tiresome if every fight was like Monster, but as a one-off it's ok for me. ofc after being bitchslapped by him a few thousand times my 6th sense of when to rush him is decently well-developed.

Monster does at least require you to play reactively. The Genocide throw loop is mindless.

[BIL]

Sodom's design angle seems obscure, but consistent. It's apparently:

1: "LMAO he instakill u @ range unless u MegaWhiff XD"
2: "OSHI he get grab outta he clothesline powerup - FO FREE :O"

I have to consult this handy video every time I return to FF for another shot at the 1LC before getting distracted by something.

[BloodHawk]

Double Post, but I think that this site could be useful (for this thread and the "RMFK2KWTF" and the single screen threads, too).
Some games are missing (e.g., Seibu's Zero Team and some choices are questionable (e.g., DECO's Dark Seal is an isometric action/shooting game), and some years are wrong (e.g., Taito's Lightbringer should be 1994), but the site covers plenty of titles.
I think that BIL would adore the flyers for Crime Fighters 1 & 2 used in the list

I find it funny to re-discover that the Neo Geo actually had quite a few bmups ..though I'd like to gloss over the fact that they were mostly rubbish (but I played all of them and even 1-CC'ed a couple ).

A couple years ago I tried listing all of the beat em up websites I could find in this thread and Arcade QuarterMaster was definitely one of the better ones. Some of the other sites I listed on there might be useful as well.

[Randorama]

BloodHawk, sorry for not mentioning your thread. I decided to necro-bump this one at random, so I forgot about yours, which actually contains more resources

Quick ones:

velo: "shallow" is good because it allows us to think in terms of "deep" (a lot of choices) vs. "shallow" (few choices) design. I like, and I also like "inflexible" ("do it this way or else") vs. "flexible" ("whatever, as long as you dodge and hit"). I'll use them both and try to popularise them, unsuccessfully so

I want to procrastinate a bit on commenting about Capcom games, as I simply wanted to mention that I 1-LC'ed X-Men (A(asian)AA version), which has two loops. I had this "state of grace" run in which I was hit 3 or so times in the first loop, and then I decided to aim at 1000+ points. I cleared the loop easily, and reached 1020 points. I do feel knackered, after 100 minutes of gaming o so.

Random thought: this game has a great OST, but in-game the sound effects drown it quite a bit. I listened to it more carefully via a music APP and bought it, as it has some great synth/sophisti-pop tracks with strong funky vibes, courtesy of Technouchi and another Konami/Kukeiha stalwart (OK, too lazy to name-check). The duo also worked on Mystic Warriors, if you want a comparison. This and Yasuhisa Watanabe/Yack's works from the early '90s are really ace VGM music.

I'll prepare a write-up of this and The Simpsons, but I'd add in the meanwhile that I am apparently missing Asterix and Violent Storm to have a full set of Konami 1-CC's (arcade edition). Well, on Turtles in Time I qualify insofar as multi-players 1-CC's are in, but still.

I realised that I left out Gaiapolis from the list, though we might say that it is a "top-down hack'n slash" game. I also have a monumental grudge match going on, with this title (and with Violent Storm, by the way). Do we count it in? Don't we? Do we care?

[BloodHawk]

BloodHawk, sorry for not mentioning your thread. I decided to necro-bump this one at random, so I forgot about yours, which actually contains more resources

No problem! I don't mind at all, I just wanted to bring it up in case it could save someone some time in grouping resources together.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Shtrom can be hit out of the first part of his dive kick (the somersault) by everybody except Baby, who has to superjoy on reaction. So, I stick to being either directly above/below him or diagonally across the screen (where I'll be above/below if he switches sides). And I don't pick Baby unless I'm feeling brave.

Hm, maybe my issue is just picking Hoover / Baby. He feels like the only character with satisfying damage to me, but maybe I should jump over to Jennety or even Captain. I hadn't really experimented with characters all that much, so that could have been the problem lol. I'll give the game some more tries.

I think Sodom is workable and logical enough. He basically just immediately goes into a charge after getting up from a knockdown (which he is vulnerable during, from the air), or he does his weird invincible staggering state for a few moments before becoming vulnerable. It's easier to hammer in his weakness with Cody or Guy versus Haggar but it does feel like a deliberate weakness and not some unintuitive exploit - though that's not to say he's not a brick wall of a boss early on in the learning process. (Also I would agree that Captain Commando's Yamato is a likable boss. He's not a standout, given that he's a fairly easy fight, but he's a fun crowd control exercise - sharply dangerous but not awkward to keep under control. The pacing of the fight is good too; I like the changes in strategies required as you go from fighting him together with one heavyweight Musashi enemy, then to fighting him solo, then to dealing with a horde of ninjas backing him up.)

-

I gave Armored Warriors a few credits in-between other games and ended up clearing it incidentally - thanks to, of course, the turbo jet leg parts, which I hadn't tried before. I'm still not sure how I feel about the game, generally. I've always thought it seemed fun enough - the emphasis on devastating downed enemies with OTGs, the flashy, destructive power of some of the arm upgrades you get, and the excellent visuals - so many cool robot sprites that get destroyed in fun, varied ways. But it's a truly difficult and impenetrable-feeling game - even Final Fight and Warriors of Fate, I feel, seem a lot more graspable.

The damage you take from enemies is absurdly high, and health items scarce (stage 4 is comparable to any full length level from Final Fight, but during its runtime - in a game where any three hits greater than a bottom-tier enemy's jab will kill you - there are only enough health items to restore half of a health bar). Most enemies are Two P-grade fast, and most annoyingly, your standard attack combos have a tremendous amount of recovery, making them extremely punishable. The high degree of commitment all of your actions require has always put me off the game - although it feels like it has the potential to be a fast and exciting game with enough knowledge, it never feels like you can get the latitude to mount a safe offense without being shredded for it. (The problem is somewhat exacerbated if you switch out your mech's arm parts, as many of the attacks the alternate arm equipment give you also have particularly heavy startup - though ultimately their higher attack power seems to make up for it.)

Anyway, after having all my best credits historically peter out in stage 4 (of 7), I decided to give the infamously busted turbo jets (a leg part you get in stage 4) a try and then immediately cleared the game. Very odd that the game goes from probably being the most difficult of all of Capcom's brawlers to among the easiest (near Battle Circuit-tier, though still harder than Punisher or King of Dragons). Cool to have gotten a clear but obviously the turbo jets are not really the best way to experience the game, so my understanding of it is still really incomplete. I'll have to poke at it more over time.

[Randorama]

Sir Ilpalazzo, re: Armored Warriors. I feel almost humbled by your comment, as I also always found this game impenetrable for the reasons you list. Which attack(s) did break the game for you, once you started using the turbo jet legs? I have seen plenty of replays in which players indeed pierce through the game at speed, but I always felt like I couldn't figure out exactly what they were doing (a bit embarrassing, I know). Please forgive me my kuso write-up of The Simpsons below: I collected a random few thoughts and I decided to post them anyway (...OK, the self-deprecating humour is a bit cheesy, sorry about that, too ).



The Simpsons is one of the three bmups that Konami released in 1991 aside Crime Fighters 2 and Turtles in Time (I am ignoring Capcom and other companies: 1991 was intense, arcade-wise). The game has quite a few revisions: three sets for the world version, a US version, an Asian (AAA?) version, and a Japanese version. I am going to offer a few observations on the various versions, though I really focused on the Japanese version for the 1-CC/1-LC.

The game pits the Simpsons family against Mr. Burns, Smithers and their henchmen. Smithers decides to steal a jewel downtown, but bumps into Homer holding Maggie (OK, weird premise). A giant diamond ends up into Maggie’s mouth instead of her pacifier, so Smithers kidnaps her and the other family members must rescue through 8 stages (7 full stages and a final boss battle) around Springfield. There are two bonus stages (after stage 1 and 6), with their function being energy replenishment in the all versions except the Japanese version, which instead awards players with points after these stages. Although I did not verify this claim (…too lazy, I admit it), the game should only have one loop in the Japanese version, but there should be a dipswitch to activate loop options in the other versions. The game should take around 40-45 minutes for a loop clear, from my experience.

After choosing one of the four remaining Simpsons, players go and fight lots of henchmen. Henchmen come in two types: young and slim (2HP for the kill), and old and chubby (3HP for the kill). All characters can do a variety of context-sensitive moves with the P button, jump high and low with the J button, and perform mid-air power attacks (P+J). Jump attacks vary on the type of jump, as in all Konami titles. Stages offer various weapons (hammers, brooms, slings, etc.) causing 2HP or 3HP damage to henchmen, and a full stun on bosses (see below). Characters can perform critical hits for 2HP (P+J, but also P attacks when they counter enemies’ attacks), but otherwise always hit for 1HP. There are various stage-specific enemies (e.g., zombies on stage 3, the “Springfield Discount Cemetery”), which may have more HP (e.g., 7HP for the devil Barts on stage 6). Each stage has a boss, and stage 8 is a boss fight against Smithers first, and then Mr. Burns in “silly mecha” form (…and 4 forms before he’s beaten).

The various versions involve quite a few differences when it comes to the other game mechanics. The world versions seem to be the earliest ones, and feature slightly more aggressive (and numerous) enemies. Conditions for critical hits on P attacks seem stricter, so single hits usually do 1HP to enemies. Bosses are generally quite aggressive and may perform combo hits on characters. For instance, the drunkard on st. 4 (“Moe’s Tavern”) can first punch a character for 4 HP (out of 20) and then add another 4 or 5 with the flame breath (ouch). The US and Asian versions seem to include some tweaks and differences (critical hits appear easier), but overall are similar to the world set 3. Thus, they also feature sparse energy items and no refilling of energy after a level (get to the bonus stage if you want a refill).

Energy replenishment in each version depends on the specific food item, though it varies from 2HP to 5HP. The most important difference amongst versions is how replenishment works. The Japanese version allows players to store extra energy, so that players may end up having up to 58 HP before they die (st. 7). This is signalled by the HP gauge slowly filling up and turning from pink to yellow, and then from yellow to green. The other versions don’t feature this mechanic, so players will max out at 20 HP. Furthermore, the Japanese versions has tons of food items hidden in stages: hitting certain spots will reveal the items. This entails that the Japanese version allows players to store extra lives, though these are limited to a stage: energy levels go down (or up, if characters are injured) to 20 HP after clearing a stage.

All the other versions play a lot like other Konami bmups, though perhaps stages are generally less difficult than stages in e.g. the Turtles ones. Characters cannot grab and throw enemies, so crowd control revolves around what I call “the Konami method”: hit enemies for 1HP and then move/dodge, track which enemies have taken hits to kill them down and clear the screen, micro-tap to manage the spawning of new enemies, jump on the X-axis if stuck in a pincher attack. The Japanese version, however, simply does not have enough enemies at any time to create hairy situations. Furthermore, it has way less aggressive bosses that mostly deliver half damage when compared to the other versions. Simply put, this version gives way less of a hard time to players.

I 1-LC’ed the Japanese with Lisa first, switching from Bart on a whim. Bart is extremely fast and has good reach, so confirming hits is sometimes annoying: they may be too early. Lisa has good reach but she’s a bit slower, so hits land when they should. Marge has a longer reach (she fights with a vacuum cleaner!), and Homer is the handicap character (slow, short reach). I don’t consider myself a skilled bmup player, so the fact that it took me 30 credits or so to clear this may be tiny proof that the Japanese version is easy in general. I am struggling with the other versions: I generally get the impression that they were poorly designed rather than simply difficult, as they have looser hit detection, (way) more inflexible boss battles, and way stricter energy replenishment rules. I’d suggest the Japanese version to any player but especially to beginners (“play this to learn the basics”), and the other versions to…no one, unless you like janky Konami games.

[Randorama]

Double post: apologies, but I had another "random thought of the day".

If I were an historian/economist, I would possibly study the evolution of bmups from a commercial point of view. I mean: the genre emerged in the latter half of the '80s (1986/1987), with Kunio-Kun and Double Dragon being very popular but not spawning that many imitators. Capcom however triggered a flow of games in 1989 with Final Fight, and Sega's Streets of Rage apparently cause a similar effect for the console market, in 1991. Capcom were trend-setters, Konami trend-chasers, Technos were slowly excluded from the race and other companies produced sometimes very sub-par titles trying to capitalise on the trend. By 1996 or so, the genre almost disappeared, also because its transition to 3D was...problematic? (I cannot think of any examples). It still survives to this day with the occasional title, but the core period seems the decade across the two decades from the 20th century.

One day, maybe, I'll cobble together the relevant skills to study the issue further

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Sir Ilpalazzo, re: Armored Warriors. I feel almost humbled by your comment, as I also always found this game impenetrable for the reasons you list. Which attack(s) did break the game for you, once you started using the turbo jet legs? I have seen plenty of replays in which players indeed pierce through the game at speed, but I always felt like I couldn't figure out exactly what they were doing (a bit embarrassing, I know). Please forgive me my kuso write-up of The Simpsons below: I collected a random few thoughts and I decided to post them anyway (...OK, the self-deprecating humour is a bit cheesy, sorry about that, too ).

It's definitely not necessary to feel humbled; there's no doubt that anyone with moderate brawler experience can clear Armored Warriors without much difficulty if they use the turbo jets. (A proper clear of the game would be a tremendous accomplishment though, of course. It really feels more difficult than Final Fight to me.) The specific attack is just this - once you have the turbo jets, do a neutral jump (not a directional one), then attack while in the air. This launches a bombardment in four directions, during which you can move around freely and continually attack. Almost no enemies can reach you while you're high in the air, and it's trivially easy to maneuver yourself to land in a safe position while using the bombardment attack to keep enemies at bay, then repeat the process. It certainly isn't a fast way to play the game, though.

I'm surprised to hear that the differences in Simpsons go beyond damage, overhealing, and added weapons - even the collision detection is a bit different in the World release? Curious changes; it's interesting that the JP version had to be so heavily refined and toned down.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The specific attack is just this - once you have the turbo jets, do a neutral jump (not a directional one), then attack while in the air. This launches a bombardment in four directions, during which you can move around freely and continually attack. Almost no enemies can reach you while you're high in the air, and it's trivially easy to maneuver yourself to land in a safe position while using the bombardment attack to keep enemies at bay, then repeat the process. It certainly isn't a fast way to play the game, though.

Thank you for this, I'd heard Armored Warriors is brutally hard and have kind of shied away from playing it a whole lot, it's nice to know if I want to make life easier on myself there's a fairly potent exploit available I can choose to use (or not use).

[velo]

Hm, maybe my issue is just picking Hoover / Baby. He feels like the only character with satisfying damage to me, but maybe I should jump over to Jennety or even Captain. I hadn't really experimented with characters all that much, so that could have been the problem lol. I'll give the game some more tries.

Baby might be the strongest on paper, but imo Mummy is the easiest.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Finally got the 1CC in Cadillacs and Dinosaurs. Really happy to have cleared the game after so many years!

Just an awesome game all around. Great moment-to-moment pacing, great hit feedback on enemies, enemies have just the right amount of health so that your hits feel appropriately powerful (tying in with point 2). Enemies are dangerous, but none of them are annoying or require awkward tactics to play around - most of the danger comes from the game's relatively low amount of food, which means you really have to be consistent at dealing with standard enemies to survive. Overall, this is one of Capcom's most reasonable-feeling traditional brawlers - to compare it to their next release, The Punisher, I'm more of a fan of this just because combat centers more around straightforward brawler fundamentals and neutral play (versus Punisher, which is more about overwhelming enemies with your especially powerful tools - AvP, though overall masterful, is similar).

One thing that stands out to me as a result of my having played so much Final Fight lately - though Cadillacs enemies are thoroughly fun to fight, they don't dominate the game as much as the enemy rosters of Final Fight or Streets of Rage 2 (or 4) do. Those games are very heavily about how specific enemy types have certain niches that they uniquely control, about having to learn their specific behaviors and properties so you can maneuver around them - of course Cadillacs also has differentiated enemy types, the most prominently unique ones being the heavies like Walther (st1 boss, Andore analogue), Lash (rock guy) and Bludge (hopping Blanka clone), but in general the enemy design is more low-key in this game; low- and mid-tier enemies don't distinguish themselves from each other as much as Final Fight's Bred or Two P do, or SoR's Galsia, Donovan, and Signal.

A knock-on effect of this is that a lot of basic grunt encounters throughout the game don't feel as significant or distinct from each other. In Final Fight, every level has its own distinct character, with each set of encounters being highly memorable, as the game hardly reuses specific enemy formations throughout its runtime - but in Cadillacs, there are a lot more fights that feel a little like filler, with each stage only having a few distinct problem fights (which in stages 4, 5, and 6 all happen to be the fights featuring Walthers - deceptively oppressive enemies, being the only ones who can escape wakeup punishes). This does fit the game's different style of difficulty balancing, though, with its emphasis on giving the player noticeably less food and therefore asking the player to maintain a higher level of consistency through its grunt enemy fights than even Final Fight does.

The boss design is the one thing about the game I find fairly spotty. All the bosses from stages 4 through 7 (the ones before that don't matter much) are primarily dealt with by catching them in wakeup loops when possible, because they're set up to take little damage outside of that (st4 Slice and st7 Slisaurs constantly dash around and cover themselves with very large hitboxes with little startup, st5 Morgan and especially st6 Tyrog spend most of their time in the air where any hit will just leave them knocked down). All of these fights have henchmen steadily pouring in, which makes getting and keeping these bosses in their loops very finicky - and there's not much ebb and flow to the types of enemies that appear (you can spend a fair amount of time chasing down the annoyingly dodgy little guy enemies, only for them to be replaced with the similarly overbearing fat guys once defeated) - so there's not much point in specifically stopping to thin out the enemy field; you just have to hope they don't interfere with you too much while dealing with the boss.

Stage 5 and 6's bosses are okay - again, I'd just describe them as a bit spotty, they're fine enough if not my favorite things to fight - but stage 4's Slice is definitely overtuned (there really isn't a lot you can do against him other than go for wakeup loops... but he has the ability to randomly hit you the instant he wakes up, so the designers accounted for the fact that he had only one real weakness to exploit and annoyingly patched it up just enough so that it can still screw you over, but you don't have any choice but to just bear with it and take hits from him sometimes). And naturally the doubled-up Slice rematch in stage 7 is genuinely just a bad boss encounter. There are glimmers of a fun fight in there but I truly think it needed more adjustment - it feels to me like a legitimate cynically-designed fight meant to force a game over if you don't have the rest of the game down well enough.

That said, Leandro undoubtedly had it right. The first run I had that got past the Slisaurs saw me 1CC the game. The final stage is truly mild compared to what comes before it, and the final boss is simple compared to basically every other boss in the game. Actually, my clear had no deaths at all except for on the Slisaurs, who taxed two lives out of me - I'm happy with that on the whole.

I stuck with Mess in the end. I was tempted to switch to Mustapha - his dash attack seems the most reliable way to deal with Slice - but I just couldn't get into the character. There is something there, I'm sure, but I just didn't find his moveset immediately useful outside of his dash kick and was consistently doing worse with him than Mess.

Thank you for this, I'd heard Armored Warriors is brutally hard and have kind of shied away from playing it a whole lot, it's nice to know if I want to make life easier on myself there's a fairly potent exploit available I can choose to use (or not use).

It's interesting to check it out for novelty's sake - I didn't think the attack would be as easily useful as it is - but I don't think I would especially recommend going for the clear that way, unless you really want to pad out a 1CC list. Bypassing the back half of the game with the turbo jets just doesn't make for a very interesting or exciting run. My opinion on the game is still mixed; it seems like something that could be fun if learned but yeah, it just feels impenetrable to me when played normally. It's hard for me to say if the game's difficulty tuning is actually well-judged or not.

Baby might be the strongest on paper, but imo Mummy is the easiest.

I'll start giving the game some more tries with him. It's not my favorite of the Capcom brawlers - again, I think it feels a little simple and lacking in nuance compared to Final Fight - but outside of its particularly frustrating bosses, it's solid, and I'd like to have more fun with it.

[Sima Tuna]

Shtrom can be hit out of the first part of his dive kick (the somersault) by everybody except Baby, who has to superjoy on reaction. So, I stick to being either directly above/below him or diagonally across the screen (where I'll be above/below if he switches sides). And I don't pick Baby unless I'm feeling brave.

Hm, maybe my issue is just picking Hoover / Baby. He feels like the only character with satisfying damage to me, but maybe I should jump over to Jennety or even Captain. I hadn't really experimented with characters all that much, so that could have been the problem lol. I'll give the game some more tries.

Most of the 1ccs I've seen of Captain Commander were of Baby. I can't remember if I've even seen one of Mummy/Mack the Knife. He is my favorite character to play though. Anyway, Baby seems the best to me for a 1cc, since his low speed can be compensated by dashing and you can do invincible jumping throw spam to deal damage and position yourself.

In general, with beat em ups that have dashing, I have found that the slowest characters are often the strongest. Because the presence of a dash or dashing move almost completely negates their speed disadvantage. SoR 2 Max is a great example. He's supposed to be "slow" but moves faster than every other character except Skate, thanks to his slide.

Shitrom is a huge asshole. No idea how to beat him consistently but I thought I'd just add that. I've seen strats for Shitrom but I have no idea what you do with Double Shitrom.

[Licorice]

The specific attack is just this - once you have the turbo jets, do a neutral jump (not a directional one), then attack while in the air. This launches a bombardment in four directions, during which you can move around freely and continually attack. Almost no enemies can reach you while you're high in the air, and it's trivially easy to maneuver yourself to land in a safe position while using the bombardment attack to keep enemies at bay, then repeat the process. It certainly isn't a fast way to play the game, though.

Thank you for this, I'd heard Armored Warriors is brutally hard and have kind of shied away from playing it a whole lot, it's nice to know if I want to make life easier on myself there's a fairly potent exploit available I can choose to use (or not use).

I'm a complete noob at the genre, but I've played a fair chunk of Amored Warriors. I can get to the rail level on one credit. Anyway I've found that while the turbo jets are safe, they don't do a lot of damage, so even though there's lots of room for error, the fact that you have to repeat the action so many times increases the chances you'll mess up and get hit anyway. It's a tediously safe way to play the game that at least requires endurance, which is a skill of its own. In my experience, I've found it more worthwhile to focus on other tactics as well.

[Gamer707b]

Just ordered a Switch copy of The Takeover. I've heard mixed things about this game, especially the graphic style, but I personally like it from what I've seen on YouTube. Been in a bmup mood lately and decided to give this one a try.

[Gamer707b]

The specific attack is just this - once you have the turbo jets, do a neutral jump (not a directional one), then attack while in the air. This launches a bombardment in four directions, during which you can move around freely and continually attack. Almost no enemies can reach you while you're high in the air, and it's trivially easy to maneuver yourself to land in a safe position while using the bombardment attack to keep enemies at bay, then repeat the process. It certainly isn't a fast way to play the game, though.

Thank you for this, I'd heard Armored Warriors is brutally hard and have kind of shied away from playing it a whole lot, it's nice to know if I want to make life easier on myself there's a fairly potent exploit available I can choose to use (or not use).

I'm a complete noob at the genre, but I've played a fair chunk of Amored Warriors. I can get to the rail level on one credit. Anyway I've found that while the turbo jets are safe, they don't do a lot of damage, so even though there's lots of room for error, the fact that you have to repeat the action so many times increases the chances you'll mess up and get hit anyway. It's a tediously safe way to play the game that at least requires endurance, which is a skill of its own. In my experience, I've found it more worthwhile to focus on other tactics as well.

This is probably the most beautiful beat em up I've ever seen. Maybe tied with Guardian Heroes. Have it on the Capcom beat em up collection. I still haven't given it any serious play though. Freakin backlog!!

[Gamer707b]

Finished Guardian Heroes twice with different branching paths a couple days ago. I'm happy that this game was every bit as good as I'd heard for all these years. Definitely will do many other play throughs down the road. Started The Takeover right after. Took me a couple days, but I finished it today. Really enjoyed it, but don't think it's a SOR 4 killer. Doesn't have to be though. Not every game has to compete with another for me. So I've been in a Bmup mood lately. On a side note, I thought this thread would be busier than it is. Nobody else likes Bmups here? I'm surprised.