S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Sima Tuna
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Sima Tuna »

I think the lack of varied and interesting enemy types hurts Golden Axe 1 the most. If Golden Axe 1 had as many enemy types as Knights of the Round (or a comparable capcom brawler), do you think that would fix the issues you have with it?

Enemies in the first Golden Axe are primarily just dudes with weapons. Sometimes riding dinosaurs. Their movesets are stripped-down versions of yours. I've actually been meaning to 1cc Golden Axe (genesis version) sometime. It looks very doable, thanks primarily to that enemy simplicity and the short length of the game. I really like the length of Golden Axe, tbh. It could stand to be a bit longer, but a 15-20 minute game isn't bad at all, in the world of beat em ups. I'm kind of "over" 60 minute clears when it comes to arcade games.

To summarize, I like the wide amount of moves, the snappy response of the character, the cohesive presentation of the world (complete with an enjoyable and silly ending,) and the brisk, refreshingly short length. If you're looking for a bit of a meatier experience, I must again point to Golden Axe 3. Who doesn't want to be a gay black puma wearing a banana hammock and catapulting off of enemies?
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Sengoku Strider
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Sengoku Strider »

Bassa-Bassa wrote:I believe I'd need a definition of "feedback" there, please, because I want to think you don't mean the response to inputs I mentioned, as it'd be way too obvious? If it is something like how a weapon hits and its perception, I don't see how that's not part of the aesthetics.
Because the game is feeding back information which defines your connection to the physical impact something had within the game's world, and what actions the player should take next. It's enacted on a functional level, rather than elements which might more properly be considered ornamental like say, Tyris' barbarian bikini or the enemies' utterly useless shoulder pads.

The issue here is that video games have no physical reality, so you can throw everything into the basket of 'aesthetics' if you want to go by its original derivation from aesthetikos: things which are perceptible. But then the category becomes incoherent as a signifier within this medium. The more useful way to apply it in contemporary media is to look at elements connected to evoking an overarching style or ethos. You can certainly extract aesthetic elements from Golden Axe's weapon hits - their brutal nature as an evocation of a brutal barbarian world. But to say that's what they primarily exist to do here would be to completely subsume the kinesthetic within the aesthetic, which I think ends up misrepresenting the nature of the medium.
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Marc
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Marc »

Feedback is when your hits sound like hits, not like farts. It's the difference between every shotgun in every FPS ever to draw my own analogy. Final Fight/Doom. If you've not got that, your game suffers.
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Squire Grooktook
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Bassa-Bassa wrote:
Personally I think things like "feedback" stand on a very blurry and hard to classify or define line between "gameplay" and what most would call "aesthetics" or "audiovisuals'. Because really strong feedback can viscerally change the way gameplay itself "feels" to play and the quality threreof, in a way that music or visuals do not.
I believe I'd need a definition of "feedback" there, please, because I want to think you don't mean the response to inputs I mentioned, as it'd be way too obvious? If it is something like how a weapon hits and its perception, I don't see how that's not part of the aesthetics.
It's hard to define, but I'll give a few examples based on my own gamedev learning and experience:


>Hitstop

When a character hits another, and both characters or the game itself freeze for a few frames (the exact number of frames usually dependent on the strength of the attack). Essentially it's an animation trick meant to simulate a blow slowing down as its own raw kinetic force is transferred into the target on impact (or in the case of a sword, slowing down as it carves through the targets viscera and bone). As far as I know hitstop is near universal in pretty much every fighting game and beat em up all the way back to Street Fighter 2, though the exact amounts and implementation tends to vary.

Example 1: Edelweiss developer shows off how varying amounts of hitstop and screenshake affect gamefeel
Example 2: Mashahiro Sakurai talking about hitstop.


>Hitsparks

Animated effects that occur when a hit connects. The animation usually plays out during hitstop, unaffected by the freeze.

Example 1: Normal vs dramatic hits in Street Fighter Alpha
Example 2: Even OG Mario is no exception.


>Hit Vibration

Vibration of the damaged characters sprite during hitstop. I believe the purpose of this is to (further) show the force (and pain) of the blow being transferred into the target during the hitstop freeze. Also of note, I think the amount of pixels vibrated often tends to scale with the amount of hitstop (and therefore also the strength of the attack).

Example 1: slow motion hitstop and vibration examination in Street Fighter 2.
Example 2: Mashahiro Sakurai talks a lot about vibration techniques in his second hitstop video.


>Hit SFX

Obvious. Though like all things much nuance goes into both sound design and the actual implementation of sounds and their volume within the game itself (IE for instance the sound that plays when you swing a punch should be lower than the actual hit sound, sounds shouldn't drown each other out or play multiple times per several frames, etc.).


>Screenshake

Vibrating certain elements of the screen on particularly momentous hits or impact. This can be the entire screen, the background alone, or even just HUD elements for a particularly subtle and unobtrusive implementation (I am told that vibrating the HUD is what Cave does for their larger explosions)


>Flashing

Making certain elements flash on hit. This can be the entire screen (as in "critical" hits in D&D Mystara), certain parts of the screen (only backgrounds but not covering up characters), or even just the sprite of the hit character (as in many shmups and shooters). It's not nessicarily the same but I suppose depending on implementation you could maybe draw some overlap with the concept of impact frames (a technique more or less pioneered by famed mecha designer/animator Masami Ōbari).


>Animation

The actual animation of an attack, the difference between a swing or a punch that feels wimpy vs one that feels impactful. This is really its own topic with many, many individual techniques to it. A lot could be said about cut-frames and other such animation tricks.


///

While these might seem like audiovisual elements at first glance, I believe they effect an entirely different part of your brain than what most would call audiovisual aesthetics. For many, a game with vector or asci2 graphics can still be fun, because you can use your imagination over these elements (and some element of imagination is invoked in almost any old 2d game, or 2d game in general). However feedback doesn't just effect your perception of the game world, but the tactile feeling of moment to moment play. It effects not only how an attack looks but how it viscerally feels to land. It's aimed at the lizard brain, not the intellectual brain. For that reason I think feedback elements are much harder to disentangle from an analysis of gameplay and its quality then most other audiovisual assets. It's simply a more primal, visceral aspect of the games craftsmanship.

They also do have subtle gameplay purposes too beyond simply feeding the lizard brain. Good and distinctive hit feedback telegraphs to the player instantly that a hit has been successful rather than wiffed or blocked. Hitstop can and has been used to make combos and hit-confirming easier in fighting games, etc.


///

Anyway all that aside I think you're being too harsh on GA. I'm not totally sold on it myself yet but I've been enjoying it myself (even if I'm still figuring out the games overall balance and playstyle), and its simplicity is in many ways charming and enjoyable given its fast pace and short length. I think it's a very enjoyable game and I'd rank it among the better beat em ups in general.
Last edited by Squire Grooktook on Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:52 am, edited 15 times in total.
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BIL
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by BIL »

^ Excellent post, indexing in R2RKMF if that's ok. :cool:

I'll cite The Ninja Warriors Again as exemplifying several of those elements. This particular moment leapt out at me, while reviewing some old replays. While I recouped the tactical cost of that risky flurry on the Claw (ultimate damage, but left me wide open to his Shinobu & Katana backup), there's quite a bit packed into that split-second...
Spoiler
1) held [attack] as the flurry ended, to enter [guard] on the next active frame, while retreating out of the Shinobu's grapple and overhead ranges.

2) crouched while retreating, in case that Katana went for her own overhead. (would've broken my standing guard, and gotten me pasted by the palmstrike/headbutt the Shinobu uses at mid-range)

3) finally backflipped away for a breather, keeping [guard] held in the event of a retaliatory super-stomp from the Shinobu.
...and you can see how, while successfully blocked, the brutal one-shot knockdown still visibly drives Kunoichi back; altering the path of her backflip mid-execution, with a sharp *kting* of steel-on-steel.

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Despite the SFC's hardware limitations. It's a superbly kinetic, tactile brawler. Actually, the economical use of classic "missing frames" frequently adds to the effect, though its more extensively-animated PS4/NSW remake is no less hard-hitting.

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This level of polish really cements the illusion of contact; it "feels" like you're inhabiting a physical avatar, blocking a deadly impact that would've seen you knocked flat. That backflip is 110% front-invincible to strikes; lesser devs could've just made enemies stop dead on impact with its god-hitbox, producing a kinesthetically inferior but roughly similar interaction. For an example of that kind of fourth-rate slapdash in motion, I like to cite the DOS port of Street Fighter II: TWW, a bad parody of Capcom's punishing impact and heft right from its attract sequence.

And it's not merely viscerally satisfying, but also a bonafide tactical element; your back is wide-open during superjumps, and I could've potentially been shunted into a backstabber's reach. (although, had I not been certain that all enemies were safely in front of me, I wouldn't have executed the backflip to begin with; simply eating the guardstun instead... the classic Realtime Tactical Onion of first-rate Hard Action Gaming :cool:)

Another 1994 masterpiece of the form:
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BrianC
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by BrianC »

I think the AC version of GA gets bonus points in aesthetics for the Rambo screams and little touches missing from the Genesis version like enemies' bodies on the ground, dripping blood on the JP version's character select screen, and
Spoiler
Death Adder being made of snakes, something the MD version misses the point of by making him a servant of Death Bringer.
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Squire Grooktook
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Squire Grooktook »

BIL wrote:^ Excellent post, indexing in R2RKMF if that's ok. :cool:
I'm incredibly flattered ^_^

I'll spruce it up a little and maybe add some examples when I get a chance!

*edited* made a few minor corrections and added some video examples!
BIL wrote:^ Excellent post, indexing in R2RKMF if that's ok. :cool:

I'll cite The Ninja Warriors Again as exemplifying several of those elements. This particular moment leapt out at me, while reviewing some old replays. While I recouped the tactical cost of that risky flurry on the Claw (ultimate damage, but left me wide open to his Shinobu & Katana backup), there's quite a bit packed into that split-second...
Spoiler
1) held [attack] as the flurry ended, to enter [guard] on the next active frame, while retreating out of the Shinobu's grapple and overhead ranges.

2) crouched while retreating, in case that Katana went for her own overhead. (would've broken my standing guard, and gotten me pasted by the palmstrike/headbutt the Shinobu uses at mid-range)

3) finally backflipped away for a breather, keeping [guard] held in the event of a retaliatory super-stomp from the Shinobu.
...and you can see how, while successfully blocked, the brutal one-shot knockdown still visibly drives Kunoichi back; altering the path of her backflip mid-execution, with a sharp *kting* of steel-on-steel.
Oh yes, I think the actual physics of the attacks might be worth mentioning too, and another place where the tactile feel of play and the actual strategy of it become inextricably bound. Might consider adding that.

BrianC wrote:I think the AC version of GA gets bonus points in aesthetics for the Rambo screams and little touches missing from the Genesis version like enemies' bodies on the ground, dripping blood on the JP version's character select screen, and
Spoiler
Death Adder being made of snakes, something the MD version misses the point of by making him a servant of Death Bringer.
Counterpoint: Tyris wears a thong in the MD version.
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Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by BIL »

Clothing takes up palette RAM, gotta be frugal! :o Image

RE the fine art of br00tal impacts, Jeneki reminded me of this beauty, from Seibu's Zero Team:

LIGER UPPERCUT vs DIVING PECKER
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Lander
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Lander »

If we're talking on the etymology of savage hits, DMC needs a mention.
Subtle use of zoom, smooth time dilation, generous hitstop that occurs independent of special FX for additional flair, and striking poses while time is stopped. Some of Capcom's finest!

DISTORTED REAL IMPACT
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Sima Tuna
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Sima Tuna »

Resident Evil 4's contextual melee actions are another example of fine hit feedback. You get a little zoom, a little delay and then a massive BAM when the move hits. The way RE4 heads explode is a lesson more developers need to learn. The overripe watermelon sound and visual is way too satisfying.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by BIL »

I will never forget yelling "AWW SHIT" watching a buddy demo RE4, kneecapping a Ganado then unleashing HUNK's neckbreaker. Sounds like a bulldozer tearing a dead tree out of the ground. :lol: Not to forget the supremely characterful framing, either; a preceding "teleports behind u" and equally stealthy set-down, now that's professional target neutralisation! Image :cool:

Mikami is the Savini of gaming ultraviolence. I can't believe they censored his masterpiece in his homeland, absolutely CLIMINAL :shock:

BAH GAWD, STAWP THA DAMN MATCH
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^ Homie's head haplessly jerking back as the STEINERIZER takes off Image You expectin' a kiss boyo?! Image Haha, figures this would be next up in my dubiously heaving GIF archive:

AKIMAN's Joy Of Violent Movement
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Lander wrote:time dilation
Excellently put! Speaking of RE4, I'd mention the way enemies and scenery at ground zero of a detonation are visibly warped/compressed; the hardest-hit (like the fucker holding the dynamite you've just sniped) obliterated outright, your character shielding their eyes and viscera from the deafening, blinding force with an urgency so believably instinctive, it's not just pace-compatible, but a feedback element in itself, akin to the grinding and sparks of a good Buzz STG.

In my experience, only the original BLOOD portrayed the primal force of demolitions-grade explosives so unforgettably. As much as I adore the original Quake's inimitably, merrily bouncing gibs -

*QUAD DAMAGE SFX* "Wahoooooo!" *QUAD DAMAGE SFX* *QUAD DAMAGE SFX* *GLUB*
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- it's a different effect entirely, more in line with Defender's immortally satisfying *POP* as laser hits zako in a burst of stardust. I always say, "Violent Gaming" doesn't necessitate gore. It can involve it, and be enhanced by it, most definitely - but the grand guignol is an accent; the foundation is kinetics. Further to Squire's linking of Sakurai a few posts up, HAL's various Kirby games, and their lovely topdown STG Ponkotsu Tank aka Trax, pack some of the most kinetically satisfying yet resoundingly cuddly action around.

Which recalls classic Tom & Jerry, Popeye, Loony Toons et al, and the most ancient principles of animation; the bounce and stretch, and so on. I think the key to a really satisfying action game, whatever its stylistic niche, is channeling those principles into an interactive medium. You want to be the artfully-positioned mouse catching the rashly pursuing cat square in the grill with a shovel. Whether the poor bastard sticks his thumb in his mouth and blows hard to reinflate his ailing dome, or finds himself rather less salvageable - that's immaterial, really. :cool:
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Lander »

BIL wrote:In my experience, only the original BLOOD portrayed the primal force of demolitions-grade explosives so unforgettably.
Oh yes, Blood's heady brew of custom BUILD physics and room-painting gibbage is right at the top of the pile.

MARANAX PALLEX! :twisted:
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(Maniacal Laughter)
BIL wrote:Further to Squire's linking of Sakurai a few posts up, HAL's various Kirby games, and their lovely topdown STG Ponkotsu Tank aka Trax, pack some of the most kinetically satisfying yet resoundingly cuddly action around.
Ooh, Ponkotsu Tank is new to me - will have to give that a go.
And Kirby Super Star is among the crunchiest the SNES has to offer - I want to cut together a for-style playthrough of that one day.

YOU MUST DEFEAT -POYO- TO STAND A CHANCE
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Squire Grooktook
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Squire Grooktook »

For another early HAL Labs developed game, Alcahest has some very satisfyingly brutal attacks, particularly the late game jumping, diving, dragoon sword plummet.

*COUGH COUGH, AHEM*

Also while I'm here and on the subject, anyone mind shooting me some feedback for the SFX here? From my own project.
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Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Lander
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Lander »

Squire Grooktook wrote:For another early HAL Labs developed game, Alcahest has some very satisfyingly brutal attacks, particularly the late game jumping, diving, dragoon sword plummet.
Wuhh, that's really out of character from what I've come to expect from HAL.

But at the same time really not, if you account for where Kirby ended up going with cosmic superboss fare in the more recent games...
It's kind of tricky to pick at since there's a lot of placeholder stuff, but I'm guessing that you're going for a heavy machinery / mecha knights kind of feel from the sounds and idle sprite?
Spoiler
With that in mind:

The hitstop and hitflash effects are already solid, though you could probably put a timing curve on the punch animation to get more impact out of it - i.e. having the windup be slow and the actual swing come out later but faster.

The servo noise is cool since it adds a believable follow-through, so that's probably worth leaning into in a more general sense. I'd aim to dial back the bass and midtones on the dash sound though - it dominates the mix a bit too much for something that would be playing often.

On heaviness, you could add more juice by having particle crumbs fly away from points of impact - sparks, splinters of rock / metal / whatever else you might be punching. Just some nondescript possibly-palette-swappable bits with simple velocity / gravity integration to add to the illusion.

Camera shake is also worth considering, but any full-screen effect needs to be applied carefully, so I'd actually implement it in reverse and vibrate the game objects instead. That way, you could scale the intensity based on distance from the impact, getting the benefit without noising up the entire visual on every hit.
(I think Kirby might use a similar idea for its hitstop - it's subtle, but if you look at the Super Star gif above, you can see that the shoryuken's three hitpauses are localized to the characters.)

Speaking of full-screen effects, the flash might be a bit much depending on what triggers it. I can't tell if it's random, every hit but obscured by video encode, or versus specific punchables, but it falls under the same less-is-more remit as screen shake.

Also, the hitstop on the aerial helm splitter kind of stands out - since the hit happens before the character hits the ground, it creates a whoosh-hit-whoosh cadence that robs the landing of some potential impact.
I'm probably getting ahead of things here since the test enemyboxes all die in one hit, but you could give the helm splitter one weak hit on the way down, and then activate a second stronger hitbox on landing to get a nice ba-BAM rhythm coninciding with the heavy character hitting ground.

DMC uses a related trick where enemies can die mid-combo, but defer playing their death animation until hit with a finisher or left to slump over. That's useful to bear in mind for cases where you want to use smaller interstitial hits to add supplemental impact and rhythm, but don't want them to spoil a cool animation by ending the string early.
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Squire Grooktook
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Lander wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:For another early HAL Labs developed game, Alcahest has some very satisfyingly brutal attacks, particularly the late game jumping, diving, dragoon sword plummet.
Wuhh, that's really out of character from what I've come to expect from HAL.

But at the same time really not, if you account for where Kirby ended up going with cosmic superboss fare in the more recent games...
It's fun hearing the instrumentation people associate with Kirby for a more hardcore, fantasy scenario. See also Arcana
Lander wrote:
Spoiler
With that in mind:

The hitstop and hitflash effects are already solid, though you could probably put a timing curve on the punch animation to get more impact out of it - i.e. having the windup be slow and the actual swing come out later but faster.

The servo noise is cool since it adds a believable follow-through, so that's probably worth leaning into in a more general sense. I'd aim to dial back the bass and midtones on the dash sound though - it dominates the mix a bit too much for something that would be playing often.

On heaviness, you could add more juice by having particle crumbs fly away from points of impact - sparks, splinters of rock / metal / whatever else you might be punching. Just some nondescript possibly-palette-swappable bits with simple velocity / gravity integration to add to the illusion.

Camera shake is also worth considering, but any full-screen effect needs to be applied carefully, so I'd actually implement it in reverse and vibrate the game objects instead. That way, you could scale the intensity based on distance from the impact, getting the benefit without noising up the entire visual on every hit.
(I think Kirby might use a similar idea for its hitstop - it's subtle, but if you look at the Super Star gif above, you can see that the shoryuken's three hitpauses are localized to the characters.)

Speaking of full-screen effects, the flash might be a bit much depending on what triggers it. I can't tell if it's random, every hit but obscured by video encode, or versus specific punchables, but it falls under the same less-is-more remit as screen shake.

Also, the hitstop on the aerial helm splitter kind of stands out - since the hit happens before the character hits the ground, it creates a whoosh-hit-whoosh cadence that robs the landing of some potential impact.
I'm probably getting ahead of things here since the test enemyboxes all die in one hit, but you could give the helm splitter one weak hit on the way down, and then activate a second stronger hitbox on landing to get a nice ba-BAM rhythm coninciding with the heavy character hitting ground.

DMC uses a related trick where enemies can die mid-combo, but defer playing their death animation until hit with a finisher or left to slump over. That's useful to bear in mind for cases where you want to use smaller interstitial hits to add supplemental impact and rhythm, but don't want them to spoil a cool animation by ending the string early.
Haha, thanks for the ideas and feedback. Yeah, almost everything is placeholder right now, except the colorless WIP standing neutral sprite, and the SFX which are a first draft of original and "official" ones. And yup, classic super robot (Mazinger, GaoGaiGar, that sort of thing) themed single plane fighter. SFX is mainly what I was thinking of feedback for!

>Shrapnel

That's a good idea, I'll have to try that out later.

>screenshake / vibration

I originally tried vibrating *only* backgrounds but not the characters, but wasn't sold on the effect (though I only gave it a brief try and I don't have the full background tilesheets done or implemented yet, so I figured I'd try again later). Not sure about vibrating characters, haven't actually heard of a game specifically do that before come to think of it.
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Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Air Master Burst »

Not the same genre, but I still remember the first time I saw Burnout Paradise running on a store demo xbox in the Fort Carson PX when it originally it came out. Bought it on the spot.
BIL wrote:In my experience, only the original BLOOD portrayed the primal force of demolitions-grade explosives so unforgettably.
Similar top-tier visceral joys from this era are running people over in Quarantine and the almighty punch dagger in Strife (my friend and I used to compete to see who could get the longest holding-his-guts-in-while-dying animation loop on the peasants in the opening town's tavern).

It also feels amazing to slam enemies through buildings and shit in Otogi.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Lander »

Squire Grooktook wrote:It's fun hearing the instrumentation people associate with Kirby for a more hardcore, fantasy scenario. See also Arcana
Oh sweet, those synthesized trumpet slides and use of the 'apple flute' (as named by some DAW I fiddled with during A-levels...) are thoroughly signature :)
Squire Grooktook wrote:I originally tried vibrating *only* backgrounds but not the characters, but wasn't sold on the effect (though I only gave it a brief try and I don't have the full background tilesheets done or implemented yet, so I figured I'd try again later). Not sure about vibrating characters, haven't actually heard of a game specifically do that before come to think of it.
I think I've seen one of the DMC games shake an enemy to denote hit response in situations where the damage isn't enough to make them flinch into another animation (or if they simply don't have another animation), though wasn't thinking of it specifically when I posted.
That one's more a product of my lengthy ruminations on software design, i.e. how oftentimes a problem can become more computation-intuitive or controllable if you invert it during implementation.
Air Master Burst wrote:It also feels amazing to slam enemies through buildings and shit in Otogi.
Yeah, that's a top pull - it's probably best-in-class for recreating DBZ fights where the combatants regularly get embedded into walls through sheer force of attack.

Though it never clicked for me outside of the cool factor - I remember many sections, particularly those with ranged enemies, feeling really cheap at times.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by evil_ash_xero »

I tried out Violent Storm, recently, and found it to be loads of fun.
Was like Final Fight via the TMNT team, or something.

You guys have probably played it, but I thought I would chime in.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Kriegor »

It's my favorite Konami. I love how zoomed the camera is. It could have been a double edged sword with plenty of off-screen action but they made enemies' health bar so small, and Violent Storm is very frenetic as a result. They also made your health bar very small, but health pick ups are everywhere! so every encounters feel dangerous, but at the same time you're not punished too hard for messing up.

Compared to the competition, it has very varied set of encounters as well. To me that has always been a way to separate the top from the very good. I wish the first loop was not as shy to fill up the screen though. I always liked the 2nd loop more. In fact, I'd prefer if there wasn't a 2nd loop and the 2nd loop was the game, but like with previous Crime Fighters, a bonus stage at the end would make you fight against impossible odds. Not necessarily bosses paired together though...

Talking about that makes me remember the weakest point of Violent Storm. I think the bosses suck! Especially Super Macho Man. The last one as well is awful. But I really hate most of them. With good bosses, it would have been in my top 5.

The only other grip I have with this game is the over importance of the dash. The move set is really fun but dashes and dashes followed by attacks are your bread & butter which I'm not too fond of. The 3 PCs have very different moves and strats though. And it's not a Final Fight case where I'll say "just play Haggar". Borris is a ton of fun of course, one of the best video game grapplers, but the Chun-Li guy and Billy Lee rip-off are also very cool. I like how Konami was inspired by Hook to enhance the famous Crime Fighters stomp with some OTG shenanigans. Not only enemies die quickly but you can fight them relentlessly until they're out!

And of course the atmosphere is excellent! This over-the-top post apo world, this crazy soundtrack, it's so detailed and full of easter eggs. The game looks better than any other arcade BTU that were released before. Even today, it's graphically better than most new releases.

One of the many 93's BTU masterpieces. This was THE BTU year!
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Sir Ilpalazzo
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Agreed on all counts; Violent Storm is up there with Metamorphic Force and Crime Fighters 2 as being cleanly the best arcade brawlers Konami ever put out. VS's mechanics, pacing, and presentation would probably have it as the outright best if not for those unfortunate bosses - they're all learnable and their strategies repeatable (though I'm still not really sure on Geld) but all of them come down to obnoxious exploits that don't really even make sense in some cases. Totally kicks ass outside of that though.
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Air Master Burst
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Air Master Burst »

Konami has a few decent belt-scrollers hidden among their big old pile of licensed trash. Violent Storm is probably their finest hour, but yeah, the bosses are mostly garbage tier.
Kriegor wrote:One of the many 93's BTU masterpieces. This was THE BTU year!

Konami really had a nice run on the Mystic Warriors hardware in 93, but I think I have to give it to either 91 or 92 for best overall year for belt-scrollers.
King's Field IV is the best Souls game.
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Sima Tuna
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Sima Tuna »

I haven't played Violent Storm yet, but it's hard to believe it could be superior to Vendetta. :lol:
velo
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by velo »

Sima Tuna wrote:I think the lack of varied and interesting enemy types hurts Golden Axe 1 the most. If Golden Axe 1 had as many enemy types as Knights of the Round (or a comparable capcom brawler), do you think that would fix the issues you have with it?
Personally, I like GA1 but it's a pre-FF game that leaves room for improvement on a lot of fronts. There's not a lot to it other than lining your guy up on the z-axis and out-prioritizing the other guy's jab, and you can do that with just about anything in your moveset, other than your own jab. GA2 is very similar but it makes some obvious simple fixes: your jab isn't as useless, thrown enemies have hitboxes, etc. Most folks seem to like Revenge of Death Adder best of all.

I think Alien Storm feels a little better, maybe because you can attack downed enemies, and it changes up the gameplay more often. Getting one knockdown after another in GA1 is too good but slows the game down. However, I think the only way to recover health in arcade Alien Storm is to buy it with real-life quarters. Rubs me the wrong way, although I don't think Altered Beast, designed by the same dude as GA and AS, has any health recovery at all, even between-level recharges. That's still enough to make me favor the MD port, which has a number of other changes as well, although the presentation suffers a huge downgrade. As for GA1, I prefer the arcade version... it didn't need another level, and the new one feels redundant. It does make the game a bit harder, if that's a plus (or minus).
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Air Master Burst
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Air Master Burst »

Revenge of Death Adder is definitely the peak of the franchise, but don't sleep on 3.

Alien Storm is fun but I think Bucky O'Hare is a much better version of the idea.
King's Field IV is the best Souls game.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Kriegor »

Air Master Burst wrote:Konami really had a nice run on the Mystic Warriors hardware in 93, but I think I have to give it to either 91 or 92 for best overall year for belt-scrollers.
An interesting debate.
If I had to break each year by tier, it'll look like this:

91
S tier
Knights of the Round - This one really stood out the test of time. Excellent mechanics, enemy design, graphics...
A tier
Crime Fighters 2 - The best DD clone. It's both what makes it so interesting and what limits it.
Sengoku - Easily the best Sengoku. Very strategic game.
B tier
Crude Buster - Fun game but very much a memorizer and hitboxes are a mess. It's so cheap!
Captain Commando - A good game but future Capcom releases will make it outdated and I think it's a step down from Final Fight
The King of Dragons - It's fun but a bit long and really barebone
C tier
SOR1 - very good Final Fight on console but it has not aged that well; too easy, too simple, not very easy to the eyes
Riot City - among cheap Final Fight copy, one of the most enjoyable. But it really feels generic and low budget.
64th Street - fun reverse Hachoo throw; enjoyable, but quite limited, both in terms of gameplay and enemy design
Turtles in Time - probably the best turtle but it's still a very simple game, both in terms of mechanics and overall difficulty
D tier
Golden Axe 2 - Outdated. Repetitive use of the same move, no synergy, bad enemy design.
Spider-Man: The Video Game - your basic Final Fight clone. It works but everything feel uninspired and rushed
Robo Army - I like how heavy your character feel, and it looks good, but gameplay-wise, Final Fight made it a relic before it even came out
The Simpsons - It looks good but it's very repetitive and poor mechanically wise
Burning Fight - another cheap Final Fight copy
GROWL - fun scenery and uses of firearms, but otherwise very outdated
E tier
Captain America - least interesting fighting system along with the next one
Battletoads - uninteresting every time it tried to be a BTU.
Manhattan Project - BTU don't work on the NES. No challenge, no balance, screens fill empty...

92
S tier
Streets of Rage 2 - one of the kings. Almost excellent everywhere, but the pacing could have been better
Warriors of Fate - basically SOR2 in the arcade. Slow, tactical, very varied roster, pacing could have been better
Hook - With Ninja Baseball Bat Man, the best Irem and one of the best Final Fight copy
A tier
Undercover Cop - A tier below Hook because the battle design is not on the same level. Too many repetitive set of encounters.
The Revenge of Death Adder - Looks really good, fantastic atmosphere, fantastic feedbacks, Golden Axe gameplay at its best. But borderline B tier as move connectivity is pretty shallow and enemy design could have been better
B tier
none
C tier
Asterix - The Simpsons with slightly better graphics, slightly better moveset (you still mostly spam one move), and a more interesting level design.
Mutation Nation - Feels cheap, especially its animations, but there are some interesting strats and a quite unique gameplay
Hyperstone Heist - Not as balanced as Turtles in Time but a more interesting challenge
D tier
Super Double Dragon - I like how choregraphic it is, but it's too slow and unbalanced and easy
X-Men - It looks good but waves after waves of the same enemies that you'll fight using a very simple move list makes going through it a chore
Sonic Blast Man - Just crushed under a pile of better/more intense arcade titles, just like most BTU on console
E tier
Arabian Magic - Quite unique in the way it looks, quite boring in the way it plays
Arabian Fight - Unbalanced, cheap and ugly
Guardian of the Hood - Abomination

93
S tier
Cadillacs & Dinosaurs - Excellent all around. Its roster is its main flaw.
Violent Storm - I already said what I think about it.
Ninja Baseball Bat Man - Superb graphics, roster (that will inspire Battle Circuit), very varied set of encounters, enjoyable boss fights, strong challenge... Has it all.
Batman Returns - The best beat'em up of the Super NES. Very good enemy design, very fun throw game, excellent graphics. With just one PC and not that many different enemy types, it lacks content though.
The Punisher - Only one PC as well but very fun gameplay, well balanced, varied fights, intense and fast. I could have done without the shooting sections.
A tier
Night Slashers - Excellent realisation, very fun Final Fight-like gameplay, excellent battle design. It could benefit from some refinement at the edges though, as it can feel quite cheap.
B tier
Metamorphic Force - It looks good, it's fast, it's fun, I like the bit of routing you have with the instant-use bombs on the floor, it just lacks a bit of depth.
Sengoku 2 - Sengoku 1 with a lot of extra loading times and the standard character now being too strong. Excellent battle design just like the first one.
C tier
Battletoads (arcade) - It looks freaking good. Huge sprites, very fun contextual moves, quite unique. It's pretty shallow but it's definitely fun.
Knuckle Bash - Very janky but fun animations and classic but enjoyable gameplay
Splatterhouse 3 - Interesting gameplay and level design but I'm not sold on the overall balance, difficulty and enemy design.
Mazin Saga: Mutant Fighter - It lacks content and depth but it's enjoyable with its Probotector-style atmosphere.
Shadow Force - IMO its gameplay doesn't work but I appreciate that they try so hard to propose something different. It feels like a discount Treasure.
D tier
Golden Axe III - They tried a lot of things, very generous move set, but it's completely unbalanced, very sluggish, and too easy
The Peacekeepers - The only one of the Rushing Beat I've played. A consolation price of the Super NES for those who couldn't play Streets of Rage. Way too easy.
Mighty Final Fight - One of my favorite on the NES. Still a NES BTU.
E tier
Final Fight 2 - Slow as hell. It feels like you'll never see the end of it. The lack of enemies on the screen and the very simple mechanics kill otherwise very good graphics.
Battletoads & Double Dragon - A varied game full of gimmicks but an uninteresting gameplay.
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Air Master Burst
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Air Master Burst »

91 also had PuLiRuLa and Rastan 3, both of which are at least A tier

92 also had B Rap Boys (B), Dark Seal 2 (A), and the incomparable RIDING FIGHT(SSS)!
King's Field IV is the best Souls game.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Kriegor »

I keep forgetting about Riding Fight when I talk about beat'em up. Probably because it's so different (auto forward scrolling instead of the natural manual side scrolling). But yes, it's a very fun game and quite accessible as well! I'd place it more in the B tier but it definitely makes this year even more interesting.

Dark Seal 1 and 2 are more shooter than BTU for me. At least in the way they play.

I never played PuLiRuLa as it's so far of my taste (in terms of universe/aesthetic) , and as of Rastan 3 and B Rap Boys, I've seen 1CC vid of them but it didn't make me want to try them first hand. Maybe I should give them a chance.
In any case, you convinced me that 92 is around the same quality level as 93 when it comes to BTU. I still think 91 is a bit below these two years.
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BrianC
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by BrianC »

Glad Riding Fight is on that Egret II Mini Expansion. Feels like a mix of F-Zero and a beat 'em up. Fun stuff!

Personally, I would rank Manhattan Project above The Simpsons. It has similar simplistic gameplay but lacks the cheapness of The Simpsons. Then again, I don't agree that Beat 'em ups suck on the NES, especially with Double Dragon II FC on it (as well as an odd, but solid DD port that still blows the computer and SMS ports out of the water). I feel Mighty Final Fight should be at least a B tier since it actually plays much better than the SNES games and is one of the better beat 'em ups on NES.

Arabian Magic doesn't deserve to be in the same tier as Arabian Fight. Arabian Fight is a mess to play with poor hit detection and confusing scaling, while the former is much more solid, has an interesting scoring system with coins that shrink if you don't grab them soon enough, and has stage hazards.
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Leandro
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Leandro »

There was also D.D Crew in 1991. Ok, it was awful, but it existed. It's from SEGA and had a New Jack Swing soundtrack iirc, so it deserves a mention.

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Kriegor
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Kriegor »

BrianC wrote:Personally, I would rank Manhattan Project above The Simpsons. It has similar simplistic gameplay but lacks the cheapness of The Simpsons. Then again, I don't agree that Beat 'em ups suck on the NES, especially with Double Dragon II FC on it (as well as an odd, but solid DD port that still blows the computer and SMS ports out of the water). I feel Mighty Final Fight should be at least a B tier since it actually plays much better than the SNES games and is one of the better beat 'em ups on NES.
I tend to like crappy games that still remain challenging and frantic more than tighter ones that present no amount of challenge and gently sedate you. That's why I like The Simpsons more than Manhattan Project. It's just more fun, IMO.

The thing with DDII is that 99% of your death will be due to a fall. The game works better than the other BTU on the NES because Technos didn't make it just a BTU, like the original. The BTU sections are very simple, despite the pretty cool (and unbalanced) moveset, and they would have become boring fast, if not severely mixed with platforming sections.

About Mighty Final Fight, without considering the hardware, if I just had to choose between Metamorphic Force and Mighty Final Fight, I'll choose the first one any day. I just like the graphics, animations, battle design (especially, since there are more than 2 enemies to fight at the same time, so it's appreciably more diverse) a lot more. It's more tactical, more challenging. Now of course if you consider all the limitations Mighty Final Fight had to deal with, it's B tier.
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