S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

[BIL]

TNWOA: Managed to 1cc Hard Mode with Ninja last night in around 3100 seconds. The game is so tight. There are trophies for 3000 and 2500 seconds, so might I keep at it to see if I can get my times down. I played quite safe on the last level with the multiple robots (why do i think their name is Golem?), so I can make up a lot of time there. I'm still not happy with the St5 boss (why do I think his name is Jubei?). He can blow up a lot of my strats and end runs.

Forgive the hyperbole, but I am absolutely frothing at the mouth to try out Raiden. Now THAT is a burly character.

Right on both names. Jubei is hyper-twitchy and hyper-mobile in Once Again, Ninja can squash him pretty good, but actually catching him is an acquired technique. I always forget just how slippery the bastard is when it's been a while. This is really making me want to finally record some runs, and I still need to get to grips with Kamaitachi (far more interesting here than in his EZMODE Super Famicom version) and Raiden (talk about replay value, this guy is a seismic shift in all regards).

A couple old demos using my favourite two characters:

> Ninja vs Jubei (oof, missed the first Atomic Drop due to a busted dpad - also note the green flames give you plenty of time to step away, don't panic-flub like I do!)
> Kunoichi vs Jubei

(hilariously, they addressed his SFC incarnation's fatal weakness to Crouch P spam, so now he'll do this if you try )

HEH... NOTHIN PERSONNEL... KID (■｀w´■)

Spoiler

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

5 hours of practice later and I still really suck at Final Fight. Still haven't raised either difficulty from the default and I've only made it to Edi once.

Personal issues and things I've noticed:

Cody moves slower than the "slow" character in most other belt-scrollers. The vertical walk speed is especially glacial. I'm not used to being completely unable to dodge most enemies. I'm sure there's a way, but I'll be damned if I can figure it out. I realize I have all the tools I need to avoid damage, but I still feel like a bulldozer trying to catch butterflies.

I've watched videos of actual good players, and I still can't really intuit either the backwards jumping thing or the grab-chaining. Mechanically I can do the backwards jump just fine, I just have no idea when I'm supposed to use it or where I'm supposed to aim my landings. As far as grab-chaining goes, well, I've always sucked at grappling in these games. I probably just need to git gud.

The pipe has hilariously low damage. It's still pretty decent in some situations for the added reach and instant knockdowns, but it's pretty funny to me how a muscle freak like Cody smashing someone with a big pipe does less damage than a few jabs.

Holy shit is the weapon use primitive. I don't necessarily need a separate button for pickups (although SoR4 shows how amazing of an innovation that is), but there's a reason pretty much every belt-scroller that came after included either durability or an intentional weapon-tossing mechanic. I frequently end up either throwing my knife away by accident (the red flashing helps but isn't always useful in the heat of battle) or accidentally picking up a pipe I don't want and getting stuck with it.

I've seen a lot of people complaining about how much health the enemies in Captain Commando have, but Final Fight is nearly as bad in this regard. I get that you're supposed to grapple for max damage or whatever, but that's rarely practical in crowds. The group fights here are just as much battles of attrition as in CC, but at least in CC your character moves and attacks faster. Fortunately Final Fight's bosses are way better than Captain Commando's.

Again, none of these things are objectively bad, it's just personal issues I have trying to adjust to Final Fight's particular brand of precision brutality. I'm basically at the point where I'm just replaying level 2 over and over until I can make it to Sodom without dropping a life. I'm sure I'll get there!

-Your only really fast movement tool is the backwards jump, which is vital for all kinds of things. It's helpful for quickly "dashing" across the screen, retreating from bad situations (as long as you know an enemy won't swat you out of the air), for flinging yourself across the screen to pin down a specific target, for chasing after an enemy you've thrown so you can make sure you get them on wakeup. You are correct that general movement in this game is pretty slow and you aren't likely to be able to easily evade or run circles around enemies on foot, but the backwards jump helps with that; it's your option for getting places fast.

It has offensive properties, too. Guy and Cody can use it to pin enemies with their flying knee, which sets up grabs - your most damaging tool in most situations - and Haggar especially needs it because it lets him use his all-important flying backwards splash, which sends enemies flying forward - an invaluable tool for crowd control. Cody's backwards flying knee does have a fairly stubby hitbox, though, so a few enemy types can just anti-air you if you try it on them, and Guy especially has a poor hitbox on his flying knees in general. Still, being able to launch yourself across the screen at an enemy and safely grab them for big damage and throw i-frames is major.

If you really find the movement speed hard to deal with, you might want to try giving Guy a shot. He is ultimately weaker than Cody but he's still capable, and his increased speed is genuinely helpful.

-Yeah, pipes and swords are largely not worth using as Cody. They aren't unworkable, but they have pretty weird hitboxes and frame data; I never bothered with them myself. Knives are amazing, and though it can take some adjustment to figure out exactly where the threshold between "stab" and "throw" mode kicks in, it's worth it. Haggar can make great use of pipes and swords, though, and has an easier time walling off enemies with them. None of your complaints about general weapon awkwardness are wrong (and I'll always say every belt scroller could use SoR4's separate item pickup button) but it is reasonable and not overly finicky to work around them.

-Your attack damage would definitely be grating the way it is in Captain Commando or maybe Warriors of Fate if it weren't for grabs (and Cody's knife usage); it's really hard to overstate just how important grabs are for crushing enemies once you have the chance to get one off. You will sometimes have to whittle lower-HP enemies down with jabs and jumpkicks before you have the chance to get in with a grab - or make use of your options to stagger enemy knockdowns, so you can go in for a grab on one strong enemy while the others are knocked down - but there are enough strategic positioning elements to combat that it's not a real flaw of the game.

It's definitely a tough game to come to grips with. It's very definitely not as friendly as other top-class brawlers like SoR4 or Fight'n Rage, and a lot of what makes it masterfully fun doesn't come to light until you're knowledgeable enough about the game to have made real headway on a clear, so it's reasonable to feel a bit cold on it early on.

TNWOA: Managed to 1cc Hard Mode with Ninja last night in around 3100 seconds. The game is so tight. There are trophies for 3000 and 2500 seconds, so might I keep at it to see if I can get my times down. I played quite safe on the last level with the multiple robots (why do i think their name is Golem?), so I can make up a lot of time there. I'm still not happy with the St5 boss (why do I think his name is Jubei?). He can blow up a lot of my strats and end runs.

Forgive the hyperbole, but I am absolutely frothing at the mouth to try out Raiden. Now THAT is a burly character.

Nice! TNWA in both its forms is truly stellar. I still haven't cleared normal mode with Raiden myself, actually; that final boss is pretty harsh with him.

[Sima Tuna]

How do you deal with Holly Woods? This enemy has consistently been stonewalling me in my attempts to learn the game. Seems like this fuck has a perfect response for any move I do. I've been playing mostly with Cody. The other enemies I can wall off with jabs or dance around for throws, but goddamn knife guy just never stops with the perfect plays. Especially when I'm knocked down and getting up, he loves to do invincible moves that I can't respond to.

[Air Master Burst]

It's definitely a tough game to come to grips with. It's very definitely not as friendly as other top-class brawlers like SoR4 or Fight'n Rage, and a lot of what makes it masterfully fun doesn't come to light until you're knowledgeable enough about the game to have made real headway on a clear, so it's reasonable to feel a bit cold on it early on.

I'm about 20 hours in and the worm has definitely turned. I'm used to the flow of the game now and only drop a life on level 2 about a third of the time. I can consistently get to Rolento on one credit now, the rest should just be a matter of time.

Still can't really figure out the backwards jump, but I haven't really run into a situation where I need it yet and I don't intend on speedrunning, so hopefully I can grab the 1CC without it (It also looks really stupid).

Still throw my knife by accident too much, but it's usually because the z-axis alignment is a bit too finicky compared to most later belt-scrollers.

[BurlyHeart]

Right on both names.

Watching a stream of someone's first playthrough made me realise where I got Jubei - the names of the bosses appear in the trophy list, which of course pop up when you defeat them. By the by, not a huge trophy hunter, but some games you just want to complete and experience it all.

Jubei is hyper-twitchy and hyper-mobile in Once Again, Ninja can squash him pretty good, but actually catching him is an acquired technique. I always forget just how slippery the bastard is when it's been a while. This is really making me want to finally record some runs, and I still need to get to grips with Kamaitachi (far more interesting here than in his EZMODE Super Famicom version) and Raiden (talk about replay value, this guy is a seismic shift in all regards).

A couple old demos using my favourite two characters:

> Ninja vs Jubei (oof, missed the first Atomic Drop due to a busted dpad - also note the green flames give you plenty of time to step away, don't panic-flub like I do!)
> Kunoichi vs Jubei

I've actually only played Ninja, and watching Kunoichi with her love taps is a bit of a shock. Where's the damage!?? It might be a hard transition to play other characters

I do very similar strats to you, but I seem to get thrown a lot or mashed out of my jet-pack-turbo-dash-slide. Might be a distance thing. It's my experience that Ninja seems to do better just getting in their space and messin' up their face (yo).

Nice! TNWA in both its forms is truly stellar. I still haven't cleared normal mode with Raiden myself, actually; that final boss is pretty harsh with him.

I could imagine that alright, with all the forcefields and Raiden being a chunk & a half.

5 hours of practice later and I still really suck at Final Fight.

I swear on my death bed, I'll think about how I was never able to beat Final Fight. And at my funeral they'll talk about how good ol' Burly loved beat em ups. Then someone will go "Y'know, he never beat Final Fight.." to gasps in the crowd. "Didn't beat Final Fight? I thought he was good at beat em ups!?", "He was a fraud!", "The man I knew was a lie."

[Randorama]

I just 1-cc'ed the JAC version of Violent Storm with Boris.
I had a perfect run up until Geld, then squandered two lives on him before laying a 29-year grudge to rest (then again, I always played the much harder EAB version before...).

Some general comments:

- The JAC version is the easiest also because it has extends (500k, then one every 1 M), plenty of energy, and enemies are not absurdly fast. I am thinking on pushing it until I get the 1-LC, since Geld is
certainly hard but doable;
- This version nevertheless plays at a breakneck speed, and rank increases considerably once you get extra extends and, if I understand correctly, score well;
- The pipe really breaks the game, if players choose Boris. The ability to hit enemies on the floor can sometimes be exploited to breeze past some of the hardest sections, though weapon dropping seems often
random (or it works in a manner that is still not entirely clear to me);

- My bosses' strategies are basically these:

A. For Drigger (ST 3), I bait him into diving, then grab, squeeze twice and throw. Repeat until he dies;
B. For Doyle (ST 4), I may let him attack at a distance and use a flying kick if he does not fly and try to land on the character. His v(ulnerability)-frames after a long-range/wide attack are generous;
C. For Mr. Julius (ST 5), I am really bad at the strategy devised by Sir IlPalazzo. I instead start by landing a 2-punch and throw combo as he turns into flesh, then grab the pipe and carefully corner him to hit
him once, then hit him on the ground. At 20% energy, he becomes so fast that I switch to special/super-joy attack+pipe combo to finish him off;
D. For Sledge, the Ozzie ninja turtle (ST 6), I use Sir IlPalazzo's strategy (B+down-forward, walk, double squeeze and throw to the opposite side). A special may be useful when I lose the pace;
E. For Red Freddy (ST 7 - mid-boss), I found that Boris' flying kick can lock him off the screen and hit if the kick is launched as sound as he bounces on the floor. At 20% energy, I switch to super-joy to be on
the safe side. I prefer this technique to the one also applicable to Sledge, as I find it easier;
F. For Geld...I improvise the first phase because the "grab and squeeze twice, re-grab and re-peat after Geld escapes the grab" technique is something I still need to master In the second phase, I am
finding myself confortable with triggering the storm attack (use the special attack 1-2 times, get slightly outside hitting range), then a punch+throw combo. Geld has a third phase in which he spits the acid
attacks. Quickly dodging spit drops and grabbing Geld for a throw will be OK for me.

I was convinced that I was playing with the "no loop" dip switch, but I was treated to the loop (i.e., "Welcome to Violent Round!") anyway.
The loop feels like a Chinese hack of Capcom belt scrollers: suddenly the screen fills with dozens of very aggressive enemies that however die rather easily.
At the very beginning of ST 1, you fight something like 4 Spike guys and 7-8 zakus, then you encounter 5 Lollipop (i.e. the ultra-fat guys) falling from the sky...I wonder what the final stage might be like

Thanks to Sir IlPalazzo again, for ripping the game apart and helping me settling this decades-old score
Next: Captain Commando?

[Air Master Burst]

Next: Captain Commando?

Awewome job on the clear! Outside of a couple super assholish bosses Catpain Commando isn't too hard. I've done the 1CC with Mack and Captain, and the Captain clear was on an actual machine in an arcade back in the mid 90s, one of my proudest gaming moments! Shtrom is a fuckface, and the double Shtrom fight still often comes down to luck, but the final boss isn't too bad once you get the grab loop timing down.

[Randorama]

Air Master Bust:

Thanks a lot, and speaking of which...can you please explain me the grab loop and a good strategy for the Doppelganger boss?
I recently started to play this one again with Jennety/Mummy commando and, surprisingly, I am only really struggling on those two bosses.
Please help a man aiming to resolve one more 31-years old grudge...

[Air Master Burst]

As far as the grab loop goes, it's easier to show than tell (not me), but basically you need to grab him straight out of his startup animation, stab and toss, dance on him as he gets up, repeat. Once you get the timing down it's pretty easy. I believe tossing him into one of the walls will kill the loop, but I don't remember as it's been over a decade. Just keep tossing him back toward the center and you should be fine.

Doppel is annoying, but unfortunately I don't know of any cheese strategy for him. Once he splits up, your best bet is to keep them both on one side. They do tend to be pretty aggressive and just charge you down, so you should be able to keep them on the same plane. If you can split them up, you can jab the first one as it rushes you down and then spin attack when the second comes in. Sometimes they get smart and you just lose, that's an unfortunate fact of several Captain Commando boss fights.

[Randorama]

OK and thanks, got it...well, sort of.
I had a credit that ended at Doppel (ST 8 ), since I fumbled at Monster (the ST 4 boss: 1 life lost clumsily).
I continued and realised that I will need quite a bit of practice to get the timing right on Genocide/Scumocide (ST 9 boss).

I will need to practice more to get the last two bosses down, but suddenly I feel that this is a doable 1-CC.
Really, sometimes it is all about choosing the right character for one's personal skills

[bottino]

I just 1-cc'ed the JAC version of Violent Storm with Boris.
I had a perfect run up until Geld, then squandered two lives on him before laying a 29-year grudge to rest (then again, I always played the much harder EAB version before...).

Some general comments:
(...)

Congrats for the 1CC and thanks for the detailed write-up.

Agree with AirMaster about Captain Commando's assholish bosses, although I'd argue that they are more of a reflex of CC's somewhat uninspired game design than anything.

Guardian Heroes is a interesting case of a brawler that is actually a spiritual sequel to a vs. Fighting game: the superb Yu Yu Hakusho: Makyo Toitsusen for the Mega Drive.

Great Final Fight breakdown

If I remember correctly, the game also becomes harder when played with Haggar in order to balance his bigger dmg output, no? In any event, he is the character I'm mostly comfortable with, mainly because of his destructive P,P suplex loop.

[Randorama]

Had a go again at Violent Storm and decided to play the full loop (pardon, "violent round").

In a nutshell:

- Any hit from anyone to anyone will trigger copious amounts of blood flowing in all directions. You can turn this option on in the dipswitches anyway ("bloody" option, violence level), and play with tons of blood flowing in the normal round as well; (... ). It seems that your character does more damage, though enemies generally have more HP's;
- Difficulty is topsy-turvy. Specifically:

A. ST 1 starts with four (five) Spike enemies on top of 4-5 zakus, and generally has way more enemies. Some enemies suddenly become faster and smarter: that is, they play like their counterparts in the "AB" revision (e.g., JAB);
B. ST 2 and ST 4 have more enemies in the first part, but are otherwise identical to the normal counterpart;
C. ST 3 has an interesting twist: the first section (outside the nightclub) has a timer of 45 seconds. You can complete it only by dashing forward, thus de-spawning most of the enemies;
D. ST 5 is identical to its normal counterpart, though enemies are faster and smarter anyway;
E. ST 6 has a few more enemies and the pre-boss section lacks any enemies (i.e. the stage is shorter).
F. ST 7 has more enemies in some spots, and no Pengo and Scramble cabs in the dungeon part;

- Bosses 1-3 have more HP's, but the rest (i.e. Bosses 4-7) are identical to their normal stage counterparts.
- The Dipswitch setting for length has two values: "one round loop" and "endless", and "endless" seems to be about repeating the violent round/loop until the "game over" screen. After clearing the normal round, you are treated to the ending, credits and a "congratulations!" screen followed by a "enjoy violent round" or something. After completing the Violent round on "1 loop", you get an "end" screen.

My two cents...

I am bit conflicted on whether this is a full "legit"1-CC or not, since the "one normal round+one hardcore round" was quite the popular option in the 1990's (think of other Konami games, V-System's Aero Fighters series, the whole Psykio catalogue, etc.). After all, players get the "End" screen only after clearing the violent round, on default settings.

The game becomes quite the marathon if you play both normal and violent round (50+ minutes), though in the JAC version it seems possible to extend 3 times or so (I completed both loops scoring 5.7 Millions). I am not sure that I like the game enough to go for a full 1-CC anyway, for at least a couple of reasons:

- The programmers probably thought of re-inserting the original difficulty level from the "AB" revision via the violent round, which were not very balanced. For instance, the "Lollipop" (super-fat) enemies have extremely high hitting priorities, and having 3-4 of them on screen (e.g. in ST 1...) means almost certain death if you don't memorise their spawning and corner them. More in general, the violent round seems to have heavy memorisation-based parts and play a bit too fast for my taste and skill level (There, I said it);

- There is no TLB (True Last Boss), but doing two rounds of Mr. Julius and Geld does not strike me as "fun", again at my current level of skill. I only ever cleared a few very easy looping games (Batsugun,
Konami's X-Men, and a few others I am forgetting now), so I can live with the feeling of "incompleteness", I guess


EDIT: I tinkered around with the settings. On the "Endless" loop option, the Violent round/loop has more enemies here and there (e.g., a Spike guy at the very beginning of ST 1), and their level of intelligence and aggression is the same from "AB" revisions. HP's also increase, though not dramatically. Not much else changes, and further rounds/loops seem only to involve more energy for all enemies (and bosses). I am going to try out a 2-loop completion ("Normal+Violent round"), and call it a victory if/when I get the clear, then.

[it290]

Rando, even for a niche forum you're really pushing the level of knowledge the community has on what the revision names mean here. Can you give a primer for JAB vs JAC etc because otherwise it's very difficult to follow what you mean?

[Randorama]

Thanks it290, but please keep in mind that if there is a video-game preservation website with official documents that explain the differences better (e.g., with translations from Konami game manuals and the like), they automatically beat (up) my observations. This is what I noticed from simply playing the games but never really researching the details, simply put.

Anyway:

I believe that Konami used a board (GGX?) for a number of early '90s arcade titles, and used a three-letter code for the different revisions, e.g. "JAB" or "UAB". The first letter should represent the region: "J=Japan", "U=US", "E=Europe", "A=Asia". The second letter might simply be "A=Arcade", as I cannot figure out what it stands for. The third letter should represent the game revision: "A=first revision", "B=second revision", "C=third revision". So, "JAB" seems to be short for "Japan region, Arcade Version, Second revision".

Let's then discuss two specific game examples.

I 1-CC'ed the AAA version of Konami's X-Men, which is the A(sian)A(rcade)A(first revision) of the game, but not the other versions. For Violent Storm, I 1-CC'ed the JAC version, which is the J(apan)A(rcade)C(third revision). I believe that there should be quite a few other revisions for X-Men, and other Konami games (e.g., Bucky O'Hare, Metamorphic Force) have several revisions also following the same naming system. The general idea is that the third letter tells you which revision is the newer and possibly easier revision of the game, and the first letter tells you which region-specific version you are playing (with U=US, usually the hardest; A=Asia and E=Europe, usually easier; J=Japan, usually the easiest).

OK, let's now focus on Violent Storm.

The JAC (i.e. third) revision of Violent Storm is easier than the JAB revision (i.e. the second revision), and the other regional revisions: it gives more energy drops, enemies are a bit less aggressive and fast (and have less HP's). In general, it makes life a bit easier for players. Like all the other revisions, it has a loop that players can access once they clear the first loop (called "Normal round" in the game). The loop is called "Violent round" in the game. Regardless of the revisions you play, the dipswitch settings have two options:

1. The default option on the JAC version is "One round only". If you clear the Normal round, you continue onto the Violent round and go through all seven stages again. In this case, each stage has *way* more enemies and all enemies are more aggressive, fast and sturdy. This means that enemies in the Violent round are as though as they are in the JAB version, and in several spots there are way more enemies to fight (see previous post on this matter);

2. The other option is "endless", i.e. endless loops. If you clear the Normal round, you continue onto the Violent round and go through all seven stages again. In this case, only ST 1 and ST 2 have a few more enemies, but all enemies are more aggressive, fast and sturdy. Furthermore, if you clear the Violent round, you start again (whence the "endless" label). Basically, the Violent round/loop in the "endless" mode is as difficult as the JAB revision of the game.

The differences amongst the different regions can be summarised in this manner (Default dipswitch settings, and I may have forgotten some details):

1. Only the Japan versions (JAB, JAC) have extends (500k, then 1,5 M, 2,5 M, 3,5 M...etc.). The other versions give players one spare life and that's it;
2. The US versions (UAB, UAC) should have the "blood" option from the beginning. The other versions will only add blood in the Violent round;
3. All versions have the "1 loop only/endless" dipswitch setting. The difficulty seems to increase in a parallel manner, so the UAB version of the game (i.e. the hardest version) has a Violent round that has tons of enemies with tons of HP's and going at crazy speeds, with next to no energy drops during the levels.

Basically, if you play the JAC version, you are playing the easiest version/revision of the game. If you can access the loop/Violent round and the game is set on "endless", you can potentially play a harder version of the game that is roughly equivalent to the JAB version, and if you are really good, you can do it for hours on end, Gradius-style.

Case in point, yesterday I tried the "endless" option on the JAC version and reached the fourth stage of the second loop (i.e. I cleared 7+7+4 stages). I then had to take a breather and decided to quit it, since I am now an old guy and 1 h 30' of continuous gaming almost killed me.

Once more, if someone like Trap15 drops by and links us to a website with official documentation on how Konami arcade games' revisions work, the official documentation wins (of course)...

...But if I got it right by simply taking notice of the basic details, then I can consider myself a satisfied man

[Marc]

Just given Runark a spin. Holy shit, this doesn't mess around. Got to be the highest on screen enemy count for a belt scroller?

[Air Master Burst]

Just given Runark a spin. Holy shit, this doesn't mess around. Got to be the highest on screen enemy count for a belt scroller?

It's gotta be close! AVP and Warriors of Fate like to throw some pretty big crowds at you, too.

I remember a few screens in Fight'N Rage can get pretty silly.

ETA: Jitsu Squad apparently gets hectic too, if they ever fix controller support then maybe I'll find out for myself.

[Sima Tuna]

Fight 'n' Rage's numbers can't be compared with those of a classic arcade beat em up, because Fight 'n' Rage gives you so many tools to defuse even the most aggressive crowds. I normally hate getting enemy spammed, but Fight 'n' Rage is different. A lot of crowds have "group AI" patterns which open them up to certain techniques, like the crowds of pigs who get parry-baited every time. Or cats, who are largely bitches so long as you don't stand over them when they're on the ground. Rats are another common enemy spam type, but they have low hp and a mediocre moveset. None of these enemies is scary like a fucking El Gado.

I'm curious what everyone else's top 5 best or most influential beat em ups would be, and why. I want to know which beat em ups the knowledgeable posters on this board find themselves returning to, again and again. What games make you love this genre so much? For myself, beat em ups are probably my favorite genre. More than shmups, gnome-beard wrpgs or jarpigs. I can list my own favorites, of course, but I think it might be more interesting to pose the question and let those with more knowledge than myself start us off.

[Air Master Burst]

1. AVP - Perfection.
2. SORR - if fan games don't count then SOR2 works here too.
3. Shadow Over Mystara - fuck Bioware's plodding tactical snorefests, THIS is how I always run my D&D games.
4. Fight'N Rage - Best modern belt-scroller yet, hands down. Impeccably tuned.
5. Revenge of Death Adder - Sega's finest arcade effort.

Haven't played the Denjin Makai games or Undercover Cops yet, so it's possible one of those could sneak into the 5 spot.

ETA: those are my favorites, as far as most influential it's probably something like this:

1. Double Dragon
2. Final Fight
3. SOR
4. Golden Axe
5. TMNT

[it290]

It's hard for me to even give a top 5, because the genre is so varied, but honestly if I had to give a top 2 Streets of Rage wins out with SoR2 and SoR4. 2 is just an incredibly brilliant game, when you bring to the table everything that it accomplished and the team involved—in their experience and inexperience combined—it's just an all time classic game that set new highs for the genre and brought it console design, which I feel like this genre badly needed. It's so replayable today and although there are flaws they barely emerge in comparison to the brilliance of the original game design.

SoR4 really upped the ante. It didn't deviate a lot from the classic formula, but it brought in a fuckton of mechanics in the form of scoring chains and wall bounce that really make the game feel better without dipping on any of the core fundamentals. On addition to that you have a roguelike challenge mode, which is an obvious but perfectly balanced blending of genres that just really works. It's almost impossible to play SoR4 without any single moment feel like you're just having fun and learning something, and that counts for a lot.

[it290]

I believe that Konami used a board (GGX?) for a number of early '90s arcade titles, and used a three-letter code for the different revisions, e.g. "JAB" or "UAB". The first letter should represent the region: "J=Japan", "U=US", "E=Europe", "A=Asia". The second letter might simply be "A=Arcade", as I cannot figure out what it stands for. The third letter should represent the game revision: "A=first revision", "B=second revision", "C=third revision". So, "JAB" seems to be short for "Japan region, Arcade Version, Second revision".

Thanks. I've personally never heard of this shorthand before so I was questioning what stood for regional differences vs board revisions and so forth. In search of that elusive second letter...

[it290]

On a personal note in this thread, I feel like Golden Axe gets way shortchanged. It's an all time classic and can be mastered pretty easily, but every moment is just excruciatingly fun and the game gives a good array of challenges that are tough but fair. No one be playing Golden Axe for score but the rank system at the game over screen is pretty cool too. Not sure who else likes it.

[Air Master Burst]

On a personal note in this thread, I feel like Golden Axe gets way shortchanged. It's an all time classic and can be mastered pretty easily, but every moment is just excruciatingly fun and the game gives a good array of challenges that are tough but fair. No one be playing Golden Axe for score but the rank system at the game over screen is pretty cool too. Not sure who else likes it.

OG Golden Axe is fun, but always felt a little janky compared to both King of Dragons and Revenge of Death Adder. Granted, I know those games both came like 3 years later, but even so, I just don't have the urge for OG Golden Axe when I can boot up one of those, or D&D, or what have you.

The influence it had is undeniable, and it's probably the best pre-Final Fight belt scroller.

[Sima Tuna]

On a personal note in this thread, I feel like Golden Axe gets way shortchanged. It's an all time classic and can be mastered pretty easily, but every moment is just excruciatingly fun and the game gives a good array of challenges that are tough but fair. No one be playing Golden Axe for score but the rank system at the game over screen is pretty cool too. Not sure who else likes it.

I'll certainly give it a ton of credit for being such an early entry with an array of dash and dash-jump moves. The whole game is really built around use of the dash and jump, and that's cool. Compared to Double Dragon arcade, it shows that Sega were thinking outside the box and developing in their own direction. They weren't just making DD clones.

Golden Axe 3 is a mega underrated game imo. Nobody ever talks about it or plays it, but it has four characters, tons of moves, route selection and extremely polished combat.

Unrelated general blather:

When it comes to most influential beat em ups, I think Air Master's list is pretty comprehensive. Double Dragon and Renegade laid down the basic premise: a joust-fest between your hitboxes and your opponents'. Then Final Fight came along and exploded the depth in every direction, with chain throws, air combos, infinites, grab pummels and character selection. In my opinion, the next game to evolve that formula was Streets of Rage 2. SoR2 realized you could use command inputs to counter-balance character strengths, like how Max has the slide which makes him fast as hell, but only in one direction (and only via command.) So you could build a game where different characters play wildly differently, even down to whether or not they have a run or how their desperation attacks work. From there, I guess one of the later Capcom brawlers would take on the challenge of evolving systems. Maybe Cadillacs, maybe AvP, maybe Warriors of Fate, I dunno. I'm not super well-versed on capcom's late-era brawlers. I just know that those "setting sun" beat em ups (near the end of the genre's heyday) were almost fighting game-like in their use of inputs and special moves.

My top five favorite beat em ups would probably look like this:

Final Fight: For getting so much right, so early on. It still feels snappy as hell to play now, and not old or creaky in the least.
Streets of Rage 2: It's the gold standard of retro brawlers for a reason. Eminently replayable, with a fantastic soundtrack, beautiful visuals and smart console adaptation of arcade design. Max is one of the best (most fun to use) beat em up grapplers ever.
Vendetta: Such a smartly-made game. It takes a completely different route to the Final Fight-derived brawlers, but ends up amazing on its own terms.
Fight 'n' Rage: The gold standard of *modern* brawlers. Nothing has come out since to top it and we'll probably wait another 10 or 20 years to see a game that builds upon its design meaningfully. It sits at the pinnacle of final fight/capcom brawler-derived combat engines.

This would normally be where I insert God Hand, but I'm going to limit myself to just 2d.

Ninja Warriors Once Again. Like Vendetta, this game took a different path to your Final Fight-style brawlers. It's a unique system unto itself. Big ups to Ninja Warriors for also having one of the very few good beat em up stories. Beat em up storylines haven't progressed at all since the Final Fight days, and most are actually worse than FF. I get that the story needs to be simple and told quickly, but that doesn't equate to being bad, necessarily. Ninja Warriors' story is very minimal, but highly atmospheric and leaves the player wanting more. The end result is a delicious storyline appetizer to the main course of PUNCHING CYBER NAZIS IN THE FACE.

[Randorama]

Thanks. I've personally never heard of this shorthand before so I was questioning what stood for regional differences vs board revisions and so forth. In search of that elusive second letter...

Personally, I think it stands for "Ah! So you think that this "A" letter stands for something, right? Absolutely Astonishing!"...or something The codes appear in MAME for sure (i.e. when you boot a game, in rom names), and I guess that videogame preservation sites also report the various versions via these codes.

+ for Golden Axe and Golden Axe: The Revenge of Death Adder. The second title has a ton of nice ideas (branching paths, highly detailed world/setting design, tons of new enemies), though it ultimately plays a lot like the first title (but better: faster, smoother controls, new characters & move-sets). I loved it back in the day, though I wouldn't say that it has aged well or that it is an objectively well-programmed, well-designed game.

[Air Master Burst]

From there, I guess one of the later Capcom brawlers would take on the challenge of evolving systems. Maybe Cadillacs, maybe AvP, maybe Warriors of Fate, I dunno. I'm not super well-versed on capcom's late-era brawlers. I just know that those "setting sun" beat em ups (near the end of the genre's heyday) were almost fighting game-like in their use of inputs and special moves.

Actually, Capcom mostly avoided adding fighting game commands to their belt-scrollers. I think AVP and the D&D games are the only ones that even have more than two buttons.

I think it was mostly every other belt-scroller after about 92 that started adding more buttons and weird fighting game inputs. Shit like Gaia Crusaders (juggle combos but NO GRAPPLES?!), or the batshit insanity of Shadow Force (6 FUCKING BUTTONS?!?!?).

[Sima Tuna]

From there, I guess one of the later Capcom brawlers would take on the challenge of evolving systems. Maybe Cadillacs, maybe AvP, maybe Warriors of Fate, I dunno. I'm not super well-versed on capcom's late-era brawlers. I just know that those "setting sun" beat em ups (near the end of the genre's heyday) were almost fighting game-like in their use of inputs and special moves.

Actually, Capcom mostly avoided adding fighting game commands to their belt-scrollers. I think AVP and the D&D games are the only ones that even have more than two buttons.

I think it was mostly every other belt-scroller after about 92 that started adding more buttons and weird fighting game inputs. Shit like Gaia Crusaders (juggle combos but NO GRAPPLES?!), or the batshit insanity of Shadow Force (6 FUCKING BUTTONS?!?!?).

Maybe I explained myself poorly. I didn't mean literal six-button controls or 1:1 fighting game inputs, but more the general shift to large movesets with lots of command inputs. Knights of the Round Lancelot has blocking, a jump kick, a quick turnaround slash, flying backwards slash flurry and a power attack, all as command inputs. Not counting superjoy, btw, the "power attack" is something else. Warriors of Fate has a deep grab game, plus at least two strike command inputs per character, like Huang Zhong's charged 3-arrow burst (hold punch) or Zhang Fei's lunge punch (down + jump.) AvP has a ton of these kind of extra moves.

The end result is making movesets of characters so deep and so rich that they feel more like fighting game characters. Obviously, the inputs themselves have to be simpler than fighting game inputs, since beat em up players have to manage so much more chaos onscreen, and are always moving up and down the belt. So just copying 2d fighting game commands straight across to brawlers would lead to a situation where the time it takes to input a move isn't worth the hassle for the move you get.

[bottino]

Great discussion going on here. I'll write something decent about it when I'm not as tired as I am today.

In the meantime...

Golden Axe 3 is a mega underrated game imo. Nobody ever talks about it or plays it, but it has four characters, tons of moves, route selection and extremely polished combat.

Wrote this about GA3 a while back on this very forum:

On the surface it may look more of the same, but the game mechanics saw a considerable improvement over part 1 - definitely recommended if one enjoyed tearing the first game apart like I did back in the day. The soundtrack is excellent as well, the best in the series IMO, and it sort of makes up for the lackluster visual presentation when compared to the first game.

GA3 is not bad. Quite ambitious for an 8mbit cartridge belt scroller: four characters, each with a set of special moves and distinct abilities (it's cool to have a grappler in a weapon-based belt scroller; outside of Warriors of Fate, I don't remember any other game having that), including tag attacks (a la the first Streets of Rage) and also combined magic attacks, multiple paths with some interesting set pieces, and you have to 1CC the game in order to face the true last boss.

Also worth mentioning that certain characters special moves are unblockable, like Chronos' fast and powerful f,b,f +B+C: the perfect counter for the guard-spamming bosses in the game.

[it290]

The Golden Axe 3 soundtrack is fire, for sure.

[Air Master Burst]

I don't know that I ever actually tried GA3, after the combined disappointment of GA2 existing and Revenge of Death Adder being arcade exclusive I just kinda glossed it over. I'm looking forward to giving it a spin!

[Sima Tuna]

Golden Axe 3 feels like a proper sequel, unlike GA2 which just did the same shit over again.

Has anyone on this forum done a deep dive on Final Vendetta? I'm curious what the high-level players think of the game. It looks like exactly what I enjoy.

One of these days, I need to play more Okinawa Rush. That game seems like it could be secret god-tier, except nobody plays it.