S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

[Kriegor]

I'm curious what everyone else's top 5 best or most influential beat em ups would be, and why. I want to know which beat em ups the knowledgeable posters on this board find themselves returning to, again and again. What games make you love this genre so much? For myself, beat em ups are probably my favorite genre. More than shmups, gnome-beard wrpgs or jarpigs. I can list my own favorites, of course, but I think it might be more interesting to pose the question and let those with more knowledge than myself start us off.

I can give you my complete top if you wish:

• Streets of Rage 4 PC 2020
  Final Fight Arcade 1989
  Dragon's Crown Pro Playstation 4 2018
  Alien Vs. Predator Arcade 1994
  Streets of Rage 2 Mega Drive 1992
  Fight'n Rage PC 2017
  Streets of Rage Remake OpenBOR 2011
  Violent Storm (Crime Fighters 3) Arcade 1993
  Cadillacs & Dinosaurs Arcade 1993
  Warriors of Fate Arcade 1992
  The Ninja Saviors: Return of the Warriors Playstation 4 2019
  Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara Arcade 1996
  Guardians (Denjinmakai 2) Arcade 1995
  Knights of the Round Arcade 1991
  The Punisher Arcade 1993
  The Ninja Warriors Again Super NES 1994
  Ninja Baseball Bat Man Arcade 1993
  Battle Circuit Arcade 1997
  Night Slashers Arcade 1993
  Hook Arcade 1992
  Zero Team Arcade 1993
  Undercover Cops Arcade 1992
  Batman Returns Super NES 1993
  Light Bringer Arcade 1994
  Vendetta (Crime Fighters 2) Arcade 1991
  God Hand Playstation 2 2006
  Final Fight LNS Ultimate OpenBOR 2019
  Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom Arcade 1994
  Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon Arcade 1995
  Golden Axe: Revenge of Death Adder Arcade 1992
  Armored Warriors Arcade 1994
  Sifu Playstation 4 2022
  Charlie Murder Xbox 360 2013
  Bare Knuckle 3 Mega Drive 1994
  Shank 2 Xbox 360 2012
  Gaia Crusaders Arcade 1999
  Mayhem Brawler PC 2021
  Wulverblade PC 2017
  Mother Russia Bleeds PC 2016
  Metamorphic Force Arcade 1993
  Streets of Rage 1 Mega Drive 1991
  Final Fight 3 Super NES 1995
  Captain Commando Arcade 1991
  The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile Xbox 360 2011
  Sengoku 1 Arcade 1991
  The King of Dragons Arcade 1991
  Phantom Breaker: Battle Grounds Xbox 360 2013
  Knights of Valour 2 Arcade 2000
  Sengoku 3 Arcade 2001
  Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles: The Hyperstone Heist Mega Drive 1992
  Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Turtles in Time Super NES 1992
  Dynamite Deka (Die Hard Arcade) Saturn 1996
  Double Dragon Advance Game Boy Advance 2003
  SpikeOut Arcade 1997
  Riot City Arcade 1991
  Nekketsu Kōha Kunio-Kun (Renegade) Arcade 1986
  Guardian Heroes Saturn 1996
  99Vidas PC 2016
  Super Double Dragon Super NES 1991
  Odin Sphere: Leifthrasir Playstation 4 2016
  Knuckle Bash Arcade 1993
  Double Dragon Neon Xbox 360 2012
  Spider-Man: The Video Game Arcade 1991
  Asterix Arcade 1992
  Double Dragon 2: The Revenge Arcade 1988
  Bad Dudes Vs Dragon Ninja Arcade 1988
  Splatterhouse Arcade 1988
  Shadow Force: Henshin Ninja Arcade 1993
  Mad Stalker: Full Metal Forth Arcade 1994
  Battletoads Arcade 1994
  The Ninja Warriors Arcade 1987
  The Peacekeepers Super NES 1993
  64th Street: A Detective Story Arcade 1991
  Dynamite Deka 2 (Dynamite Cop) Saturn 1998
  Sengoku 2 Arcade 1993
  Crude Buster Arcade 1990
  Mutation Nation Arcade 1992
  RoboCop NES 1989
  Ninja Gaiden Arcade 1988
  River City Girls Playstation 4 2019
  Streets of Rage Z OpenBOR 2014
  Castle Crashers Xbox 360 2008
  Speed Brawl PC 2018
  Aztez PC 2017
  Battletoads PC 2020
  Crime Fighters Arcade 1989
  Mazin Saga: Mutant Fighter Mega Drive 1993
  Robo Army Arcade 1991
  The TakeOver PC 2019
  The Combatribes Arcade 1990
  Golden Axe 2 Mega Drive 1991
  Gekido Advance Game Boy Advance 2002
  Ninja Combat Arcade 1990
  Splatterhouse 3 Mega Drive 1993
  Scott Pilgrim vs. The World: The Game Xbox 360 2010
  TMNT: Super Kame Ninja (Teenage Mutant Hero Turtle) Arcade 1989
  Fighting Force Playstation 1997
  Double Dragon 2: The Revenge NES 1990
  Golden Axe Mega Drive 1989
  Battletoads NES 1991
  Comix Zone Mega Drive 1995
  RoboCop 2 Arcade 1991
  Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Shredder's Revenge PC 2022
  Burning Fight Arcade 1991
  The Simpsons Arcade 1991
  Final Fight: Streetwise Playstation 2 2006
  Golden Axe 3 Mega Drive 1993
  TMNT Game Boy Advance 2003
  Alien Storm Arcade 1990
  Dynasty Wars Arcade 1989
  Battletoads/Double Dragon NES 1993
  Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Game Boy Advance 2005
  TMNT Game Boy Advance 2007
  X-Men Arcade 1992
  Okinawa Rush PC 2021
  Batman Forever Super NES 1995
  Mighty Final Fight NES 1993
  Final Fight 2 Super NES 1993
  Black Belt Master System 1986
  Skull & Crossbones Arcade 1989
  Double Dragon 3: The Sacred Stone NES 1991
  Spartan X (Kung Fu Master) Arcade 1984
  P.O.W.: Prisoners of War Arcade 1988
  Double Dragon Arcade 1987
  Streets of Fury Xbox 360 2009
  Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles 2: The Arcade Game NES 1990
  Mighty Morphin Power Rangers Super NES 1994
  Streets of Red: Devil's Dare Deluxe PC 2018
  Downtown Nekketsu Monogatari (River City Ransom) NES 1989
  Arabian Fight Arcade 1992
  Gang Wars Arcade 1989
  Raging Justice PC 2015
  9 Monkeys of Shaolin Playstation 4 2020
  Cobra Kaï: The Karate Kid Saga Continues PC 2020
  Avengers Arcade 1987
  Way of the Passive Fist Switch 2018
  Samuraï Riot PC 2017
  Sacred Citadel Xbox 360 2013
  Captain America and the Avengers Arcade 1991
  Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 3: The Manhattan Project NES 1991
  Samuraï Arcade 1980
  Shaq Fu: A Legend Reborn PC 2018
  Fantastic Four Playstation 1997
  Altered Beast Arcade 1988
  Double Dragon 3: The Rosetta Stone Arcade 1990
  Karateka Xbox 360 2012
  Swashbuckler Arcade 1981

Top 5 influential are (in order):
Final Fight
Nekketsu Kōha Kunio-Kun
Spartan X
Alien vs. Predator
Downtown Nekketsu Monogatari

[Air Master Burst]

Has anyone on this forum done a deep dive on Final Vendetta? I'm curious what the high-level players think of the game. It looks like exactly what I enjoy.

I've done a 1CC with all three characters, it's fantastic although a touch easy. Only the final boss really made me work for it. Sadly, "Ultra" difficulty appears to just give you fewer lives, if there was an AI boost I didn't notice it. If it does end up with a physical release it will instantly become the best Neo Geo belt-scroller by a decent margin. Currently my runner-up for GOTY, and only because Shredder's Revenge got me right in the nostalgia; Final Vendetta is probably the better game.

Top 5 influential are (in order):
Final Fight
Nekketsu Kōha Kunio-Kun
Spartan X
Alien vs. Predator
Downtown Nekketsu Monogatari

This list makes sense to me, except for AVP? It's one of my favorite games of all time, but it's still pretty unique in how it plays. I can't think of any other belt-scroller with a comparable gun button mechanic, for instance. Stuff like TMNT and Streets of Rage seem like they had more influence on the design of later games.

Also, I'm surprised you ranked Dragon's Crown Pro so high? I played a good bit of the original on Vita and I recall it being gorgeous but otherwise pretty average. How much did they improve the Pro version?

[Kriegor]

The end result is making movesets of characters so deep and so rich that they feel more like fighting game characters. Obviously, the inputs themselves have to be simpler than fighting game inputs, since beat em up players have to manage so much more chaos onscreen, and are always moving up and down the belt. So just copying 2d fighting game commands straight across to brawlers would lead to a situation where the time it takes to input a move isn't worth the hassle for the move you get.

Many beat'em up occuring on limited planes have fighting game inputs (like HCF). Also Final Fight 3 has traditional fighting game command moves and you do use them a lot. It's funny because FF3 has no simple down up command move. I've always thought down up was the most elegant input for a belt scrolling beat'em up as you can still change the direction of your attack at the very end (by just pressing left-up or up-right), it's not messing with your positionning and it's not something you would easily input just by moving around.

This list makes sense to me, except for AVP? It's one of my favorite games of all time, but it's still pretty unique in how it plays. I can't think of any other belt-scroller with a comparable gun button mechanic, for instance. Stuff like TMNT and Streets of Rage seem like they had more influence on the design of later games.

Also, I'm surprised you ranked Dragon's Crown Pro so high? I played a good bit of the original on Vita and I recall it being gorgeous but otherwise pretty average. How much did they improve the Pro version?

Linn basically predates 3D BTU gameplay (moving chain system, no ground throw, strong aerial game, can keep herself in the air, juggle in the air...). It was quoted as a direct inspiration for Denjinmakai 2, Guardian Heroes and Devil May Cry, which in their turns, inspired many many other games. Also, most 2D beat'em up released after it will incorporate juggle combos. Before AvP, Black Belt and Mutation Nation were the only ones and it was far far far far more restricted.

TMNT mostly inspired TMNT (also The Simpsons and Asterix, all from Konami) and even then, Shredder's Revenge made a shift for certain Final Fight mechanics (grabbing by hurbox collision) and more modern ones like instant dodge/counter, super armor everywhere etc.

Streets of Rage was hugely influential because everyone played them so I agree you could put it in the top 5. But what it brought was minor changes. It still is very close to Final Fight. I say that as a huge fan of the serie as my ranking shows.

Dragon's Crown Pro so high is, I admit, a very controversial take. It's not balanced (at all), it's not very tactical/methodical, it's grind heavy, the first 10 hours at least are boring, managing your inventory is a chore, and making food stop being fun quite soon. But I just love it. I love how insanely different each PC are. I love how chaotic the action become in the endless dungeon. I love how broken yet satisfying certain mechanics are (can't get enough of building iframes with the Amazon). I love the generosity in terms of enemies and bosses and the overall artistic direction. I'm very subjective about this game.

I only played Dragon's Crown Pro so I don't know what it brought compared to the original.

[Air Master Burst]

Linn basically predates 3D BTU gameplay (moving chain system, no ground throw, strong aerial game, can keep herself in the air, juggle in the air...). It was quoted as a direct inspiration for Denjinmakai 2, Guardian Heroes and Devil May Cry, which in their turns, inspired many many other games. Also, most 2D beat'em up released after it will incorporate juggle combos. Before AvP, Black Belt and Mutation Nation were the only ones and it was far far far far more restricted.

TMNT mostly inspired TMNT (also The Simpsons and Asterix, all from Konami) and even then, Shredder's Revenge made a shift for certain Final Fight mechanics (grabbing by hurbox collision) and more modern ones like instant dodge/counter, super armor everywhere etc.

Good point about the 3D inspirations from AVP, I wasn't even thinking about it like that! I should actually slot AVP instead of Streets of Rage on my list, since SOR was more influential for the music and aesthetics than any actual gameplay innovations.

TMNT was the first belt-scroller to do big chaotic multiplayer action. Pretty much anything with more than 2 players in the late 80s and early 90s was chasing that TMNT money; not to mention the number of cartoon licenses that suddenly got beat-em-up tie-in games, although that was more of a console phenomenon.

[Randorama]

Mini-query: list of Irem and Jaleco beat'em ups, plus opinion(s) on these titles? I know Blade Master, Ninja Baseball Batman, Hook and Undercover Cops from Irem, plus Detective Story (or whatever is called) from Jaleco.

[sky-13]

Mini-query: list of Irem and Jaleco beat'em ups, plus opinion(s) on these titles? I know Blade Master, Ninja Baseball Batman, Hook and Undercover Cops from Irem, plus Detective Story (or whatever is called) from Jaleco.

I’ve 1CC’d Ninja Baseball with Jose and I really like it. Quite a decent array of moves and specials. I recall only one boss that I thought was cheap.

That said I don’t think it can hold up to say AvP and DM2. Hell, I think Final Fight is more enjoyable for me personally.

I definitely say give Ninja Baseball a try. I believe the green character is the best but I’m not totally sure.

[Kriegor]

Jaleco's mostly known for making low cost copy pasted BTU, which is a bit of an exageration. They actually inspired Konami with their throws on the Z axis (from Hachoo! to Turtles in time and from 64th Street to Batman Returns). They also made the Rushing Beat trilogy, the equivalent of the Streets of Rage for the Super NES (the only good Final Fight on SNES was the third one and it was released so late most people had moved on). I've only played the latest of the Rushing Beat. It's far too easy for my taste and unremarkable but if I had grown up with a Super NES, I would definitely have played the shit out of this trilogy. My main problem with Jaleco is that nothing they made have been timeless. People were glad they were there, as they filled a need, and that's end there.

Irem is the most underrated when it comes to Beat'em Up (which is funny because I think they were overrated when it comes to Shmup ). Everyone knows every single releases of SNK, Technos, Sega, Konami and Capcom but Irem? They pass under the radar. I consider their work more interesting than SNK and even Technos actually. Spartan X was a strong pioneer. It's basic but it works for what it is. They double down on it with Vigilante but at this time, Data East was the one to beat. Never played Blade Master. Out of curiosity, I really should (even though it looks terrible).

Now when Final Fight was released, I believe at Irem they played the shit out of it. Both Hook and Undercover Cops dig deeper into FF stuff than most other copies (which is saying something considering the insane amount of them). Hook is a very good game, both as a Final Fight clone and as its own thing. It's actually a mix between Final Fight and Crime Fighters. Might be the first beat'em up with moves that had true OTG properties as well. Undercover Cops, people say it's overrated because they didn't play the original version (japanese). It's not on the same level as Capcom stuff (it's a bit too slow, the battle design is not good enough, too repetitive, and certain enemies push cheap tactics) but it's just behind. Excellent gamefeel, original artistic direction, interesting resources management (cute moving food)... Both Hook and Undercover Cops are above the best SNK/Technos games.

Ninja Baseball Bat Man is a masterpiece. The game is stupidly clever. It actually inspired Battle Circuit excellent roster when you think about it (Ryno is Pink, Roger is Green, Straw is Silver and Jose is Blue), but IMO Ninja Baseball Bat Man did it even better!! The moveset is not just fantastic, its connectivity is strong, every move has a purpose. It makes for a really good game to speedrun, just like Night Slashers thanks to how strategically you can use your resources. It feels very hard but it's more manageable than it looks at first. It's really not a cheap game, it's less cheap than Undercover Cops. Also the realisation is top notch. It's one of those rare games that trully rivals best Capcom/Sega stuff (there's what? This one, Night Slashers, Crime Fighters 2 and 3 and we're pretty much done).

[Sima Tuna]

The few Jaleco beat em ups I played (Rushing Beat) were unremarkable. I'd rank them somewhere around Final Fight 2, although maybe that's a bit harsh. As a kid, I had Knights of the Round on my snes. I think that's a better game than any of the rushing beat titles, or any other brawler made by jaleco.

I'm tempted to buy Shredder's Revenge... But I've seen how the taunt works. Who thought that was okay? Enemies don't even have to be onscreen to get a full super. Is this something you can play around? "Just don't use it" yeah, but my concern is, what if the bosses are built around taunt spamming? Some boss phases seem extremely annoying, like Rat King. I dunno. I've heard people on here say it's great, but the footage I've seen did not impress me. Nor do all the frothing positive reviews on mainstream websites fill me with confidence. The mainstream has displayed a historically poor understanding of what makes brawlers good.

I am mildly looking forward to the cowabunga collection. Assuming that porting job isn't terrible.

[Kriegor]

I'm tempted to buy Shredder's Revenge... But I've seen how the taunt works. Who thought that was okay? Enemies don't even have to be onscreen to get a full super. Is this something you can play around? "Just don't use it" yeah, but my concern is, what if the bosses are built around taunt spamming? Some boss phases seem extremely annoying, like Rat King. I dunno. I've heard people on here say it's great, but the footage I've seen did not impress me. Nor do all the frothing positive reviews on mainstream websites fill me with confidence. The mainstream has displayed a historically poor understanding of what makes brawlers good.

The game is not balanced around the taunt mechanic. It's balanced around the dodge/counter two step move. Most enemies (even some of the basic grunts) have super armor (including against grabs) and are designed to always attack first, often even disregarding where the player is (like just charging in a straight line) so that the player has to bait and punish. The moveset feels very disconnected and a lot of moves are useless. It's important to note that the core team worked on the 2nd TMNT for the GBA and Scott Pilgrim (two River City clones) while the guys who worked on SOR4 only playtested and gave their opinion (sometimes disregarded, for example, they said on twitter they advise the team to change the way taunt worked).

As a result, it's more a 3D beat'em up with belt scrolling than an old school beat'em up. It's not tactical, and you're punished for being proactive. The devs said in an interview it's important to make a game looks old school but not play old school, as gameplay has evolved. I don't agree but it's their work, and I respect that. So instead of comparing it to Final Fight, which would put Shredder's Revenge at a huge disadvantage, I compare it to Bayonetta. But it still put Shredder's Revenge like wayyy below.

They put a ton of effort into the universe, it still something to play if you love the turtles but I really think the gameplay has no depth, is to me unenjoyable, and I'm just scratching the surface of what I don't like. Enemy design is the worst, moveset connectivity comes next, but then the level design is just so bad as well, full of traps that detract from the pacing without adding anything, all PCs play the same, even April, combo freedom is very limited so if you're into that, well it's not even there, there are only three difficulty setting and hard is not hard enough, only one enemies' repartition, the arcade runs are too long, but the overall content is not impressive at all.

We've had way worse these years but I mean I still had more fun with River City Girls so...

[Air Master Burst]

Jaleco is usually some budget ass shit. Stunningly average at best, which in this case is probably either 64th Street or Rushing Beat 3. I like them both ok, but they don't have a ton to offer.

Irem didn't make very many belt-scrollers, but what's there is pretty good! Hook is shockingly good for a licensed game based on an early 90s live-action kids movie. Ninja Baseball Batman and Undercover Cops have already been discussed at length. Kung-Fu Master and Vendetta are both before my time and too old for me to ever really dig into. I think the only other one they had was Blade Master, which looks pretty cool but somewhat unremarkable. I'd be willing to give it a run since Irem is usually pretty good.

I'm tempted to buy Shredder's Revenge... But I've seen how the taunt works. Who thought that was okay? Enemies don't even have to be onscreen to get a full super. Is this something you can play around? "Just don't use it" yeah, but my concern is, what if the bosses are built around taunt spamming? Some boss phases seem extremely annoying, like Rat King.

I only really used the taunt when I wanted to actually taunt enemies, none of the bosses require it (and if you're playing solo most of them don't give you much of a window to taunt anyway). The only time it gets annoying is if you're playing with randos, because they WILL special spam and then stop to taunt every 5 seconds. If you have a few friends to play with who won't taunt spam it really comes into its own.

Rat King isn't too bad as long as you keep spamming jump attack into dive attack while his rat swarms cross the screen, otherwise the random rats that jump out of them will grab you and annoy you to no end. The only boss that gave me any trouble was Captain Zorax, although Wingnut's missile barrages are supremely annoying.

It's a really fun solo 1CC if you have any sort of nostalgia for classic TMNT, just don't expect a big challenge. Currently my GOTY, although I admit Final Vendetta is a better game.

ETA:

Irem is the most underrated when it comes to Beat'em Up (which is funny because I think they were overrated when it comes to Shmup ). Everyone knows every single releases of SNK, Technos, Sega, Konami and Capcom but Irem? They pass under the radar. I consider their work more interesting than SNK and even Technos actually

Taito is underrated here, too. Dungeon Magic and Pu-Li-Ru-La are total bangers, Growl and Arabian Magic are pretty good (apart from the shitty platforming bits in Growl), and I'm told Sonic Blast Man is solid for a SNES belt-scroller. They also have Violence Fight, Rastan 3, and Mystical Fighter on Genesis; none of which I've tried. OH, and also the absolute awesomeness that is Riding Fight, although I'm not sure what the fuck genre that even belongs to.

[Kriegor]

They were the weirdos. Depending on you sensibility, that tends to enhance or decrease their appeal by quite a lot.

[Sima Tuna]

I'm tempted to buy Shredder's Revenge... But I've seen how the taunt works. Who thought that was okay? Enemies don't even have to be onscreen to get a full super. Is this something you can play around? "Just don't use it" yeah, but my concern is, what if the bosses are built around taunt spamming? Some boss phases seem extremely annoying, like Rat King. I dunno. I've heard people on here say it's great, but the footage I've seen did not impress me. Nor do all the frothing positive reviews on mainstream websites fill me with confidence. The mainstream has displayed a historically poor understanding of what makes brawlers good.

The game is not balanced around the taunt mechanic. It's balanced around the dodge/counter two step move. Most enemies (even some of the basic grunts) have super armor (including against grabs) and are designed to always attack first, often even disregarding where the player is (like just charging in a straight line) so that the player has to bait and punish. The moveset feels very disconnected and a lot of moves are useless. It's important to note that the core team worked on the 2nd TMNT for the GBA and Scott Pilgrim (two River City clones) while the guys who worked on SOR4 only playtested and gave their opinion (sometimes disregarded, for example, they said on twitter they advise the team to change the way taunt worked).

As a result, it's more a 3D beat'em up with belt scrolling than an old school beat'em up. It's not tactical, and you're punished for being proactive. The devs said in an interview it's important to make a game looks old school but not play old school, as gameplay has evolved. I don't agree but it's their work, and I respect that. So instead of comparing it to Final Fight, which would put Shredder's Revenge at a huge disadvantage, I compare it to Bayonetta. But it still put Shredder's Revenge like wayyy below.

They put a ton of effort into the universe, it still something to play if you love the turtles but I really think the gameplay has no depth, is to me unenjoyable, and I'm just scratching the surface of what I don't like. Enemy design is the worst, moveset connectivity comes next, but then the level design is just so bad as well, full of traps that detract from the pacing without adding anything, all PCs play the same, even April, combo freedom is very limited so if you're into that, well it's not even there, there are only three difficulty setting and hard is not hard enough, only one enemies' repartition, the arcade runs are too long, but the overall content is not impressive at all.

We've had way worse these years but I mean I still had more fun with River City Girls so...

Bolded the most horrifying parts. Sounds like the opposite of what I want. I like turtles games but I can just play the old ones. What you are saying jibes with the opinion I've been developing based on watching full runs of the game. I did notice that throws have no i-frames, which seems like another awful decision.

Incidentally, I fucking hated Scott Pilgrim. I really dislike how much praise that game has received. The whole game is a massive stat grind. Castle Crashers is another bad one, in my book.

I'll probably pick up Final Vendetta.

[BurlyHeart]

I would disagree and say the boss fights in Shredder's Revenge are built around the taunt mechanic. During the regular levels you can get by just fine and it's actually more fun than spamming taunt.

The boss fights have pauses where, at least to my mind, you're supposed to use taunt and then attack. Especially given your normal attacks don't do a whole pile of damage to them.

I'll probably pick up Final Vendetta.

Good choice. It's a better game, imo.

[Air Master Burst]

The boss fights have pauses where, at least to my mind, you're supposed to use taunt and then attack. Especially given your normal attacks don't do a whole pile of damage to them.

I guess, but the special bar fills quickly enough it's usually better to throw a combo or two and end it with a special instead of wasting time on a taunt. Some bosses only give you enough time to either taunt or attack, so if you try to taunt spam it can actually take longer to kill them.

[Mortificator]

The Golden Axe 3 soundtrack is fire, for sure.

There's a reason I always pick the desert route...

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I guess, but the special bar fills quickly enough it's usually better to throw a combo or two and end it with a special instead of wasting time on a taunt. Some bosses only give you enough time to either taunt or attack, so if you try to taunt spam it can actually take longer to kill them.

It's not necessarily about time, but rather safety. In a game where bosses hit quite hard, avoiding damage is crucial, and taunting then using the special seems to be the safest option. Taunting itself is occasionally amusing, but I'm not sure I'm sold on a mechanic where you're encouraged to stop moving repeatedly is all compared to something simpler like Wolf Fang: Kuuga 2001 or SoR3 where you just have an auto charging meter.

[Air Master Burst]

In a game where bosses hit quite hard, avoiding damage is crucial, and taunting then using the special seems to be the safest option. Taunting itself is occasionally amusing, but I'm not sure I'm sold on a mechanic where you're encouraged to stop moving repeatedly is all compared to something simpler like Wolf Fang: Kuuga 2001 or SoR3 where you just have an auto charging meter.

A lot of bosses have attacks that last longer than most characters' specials, and the dodge roll is so generous on i-frames and what you can cancel into it from that it's almost always a better defensive option than a special.

I mean, it's not a challenging game even without taunt spamming. I think the Gnarly 1CC only took me around 12 hours with April, and some of that was messing around multiplayer with friends. If you can't enjoy a belt-scroller unless it's hard then you probably won't like it, but if you're still capable of getting a visceral thrill from the simple act of beating up ninjas and dinosaurs then it's pretty damn fun.

[Sima Tuna]

But what if you dodge roll into/out of a special or a taunt?

[BurlyHeart]

Has anyone tried the PSN version of the NES Double Dragons?

[BIL]

The Kunio World Classics Collection? I have that one - a mixed bag imo. Best feature is almost certainly the fully-translated Downtown Special (effectively RCR2), a neat little diversion brawler much like its predecessor.

Unfortunately, the only version of DD2 included is the inferior NES revision. It's a fun romp, but for real venom, you need the FC rev. I picked up the FC cart, got the living shit stomped out of me, then thought "Wow! I'm bad at NES DD2!" Then I saw the absolute highway robberies that NES speedrunners were getting away with, tried it myself and cleared it out in one shot.

I was FC or bust after that. While they both feature three difficulty levels, FC "Difficult" is an entire world of brutality beyond the NES's wimpy "Supreme Master." Everyone loves the M4 corridor battle! FC Hard Right Arms are legit bad motherfuckers

The Virgin NES

Spoiler

THE CHAD FC

Spoiler

As shown, FC Hard AI will viciously seek and destroy, while NES Hard AI just kinda flops about. FC Hard also gets a tad more enemy HP, just enough to balance out the infamous Knee Bazooka. It's still your single strongest attack, and still unmatched for blasting enemies clear across the screen to their doom - but on safe ground, it's no longer an instakill, and it may well trade without careful setup. So the weaker, but much easier-to-connect Uppercut and Tatsumaki specials gain renewed purpose, as do the bnb strikes and grapples. It's not a nerf - the Knee remains monstrously satisfying to demolish enemies with - it's simply no longer the bar-none best response to every situation.

Paradoxically, the FC one's also a lot user-friendlier... you get the full game on all difficulties, instead of being kicked out early on Easy + Normal. Unlimited continues are available by default, no cheats needed. And the game's polarising platformer element is actually reflected by the difficulty setting, with the really annoying Mission 6 patterns reserved for Difficult.

TLDR: Missed opportunity to promote the definitive version of a classic FC brawler. Also, I could swear there's a touch of input lag, but tbh, FCDD1/2/3 are a tad floaty even on real gear. Noticeable, but adjustable to, imo.

[BurlyHeart]

Thanks as always BIL. Double Dragon was one of the first Arcade games I played in my local Chinese, and I also played the heck out of the Amstrad CPC version growing up. I have cleared the Arcade ports by Hamster, but it's my head to go back and try some different versions of the games.

I noticed you can buy them separately on PSN, so I assume they're the same as from the Kunio Collection.

EDIT: I've oft wondered if the NES versions are especially revered in Japan, seeing as we get the NES versions in the Kunio collection and also a kinda sequel to the NES games in Double Dragon IV.

I've also heard great things about the Advance Double Dragon.

[BIL]

Oh hell yeah, DD Advance is exemplary! Easily the one game of the series I'd keep if forced to choose. Perfect synthesis of AC brutality and FC generosity.

[Sima Tuna]

The best games on the kunio collection, in my opinion, are NES double dragon 1, River City Ransom/Downtown Nekketsu Monogatari, the Jidaigeki sequel and then maybe Renegade. I think the version of renegade on the kunio collection is the NES one, which is why I add the "maybe." Personally, I'd say the master system port of renegade has the best art style, and that version is not included.

Of course, I'm only speaking of beat em ups. The real, secret best games on the kunio collection are the sports games. Super Dodge Ball, Soccer, and particularly Hockey (it's hilarious!) There still isn't a better dodge ball game than super dodge ball.

[Air Master Burst]

The real, secret best games on the kunio collection are the sports games. Super Dodge Ball, Soccer, and particularly Hockey (it's hilarious!) There still isn't a better dodge ball game than super dodge ball.

I don't think this is even a secret, Super Dodge Ball is a certified classic! I knew way more kids with Super Dodge Ball for NES than DD and RCR combined. Soccer was great too, but I sadly never tried the hockey.

ETA: the GBA Super Dodge Ball was pretty good too. I wanna try the Neo Geo version at some point, too.

[Randorama]

Double post because I think that this thread should be bumped up...

Finally 1-CC'ed Captain Commando, putting a 31-years old grudge to rest.

In a nutshell:

1. The switch to Jennety/Mummy Commando was the key choice I had to make after decades of playing with the Captain, losing interest very quickly, and leaving the game aside for another decade. Mummy/Jennety has a weird, slow way of moving but also has a long range with his attacks and can poke attacks very fast. I prefer fast, mobile characters but he can control crowds very easily;

2. Stages are not very difficult, once you know how to handle the more annoying enemies (e.g. Z's), know when to dash, and know when to take position and poke. With Jennety, it is also easy to exploit safe spots due to the character's attack range;

3. Bosses are generally annoying and cheap, but once more Jennety's range and poking frequency can be exploited to win fights cheaply. The special attack/super joy also has a very solid defensive function that can solve most of the dangerous situations (e.g. missing a dash attack and being open to Genocide's fire/ice balls);

4. I 1-CC'ed the game a first time...after dropping a life to Shtrom jr. (ST 2), yes. I played very conservatively and reached Genocide (ST 9, final boss) without too many problems. I performed the infinite throw-and-dash trick successfully until he was at his last bar of energy, but then missed the throw. The boss decided to suicide by spamming the screen-wide explosion attack, which leaves him open for 4-hit combos afterwards. He performed that attack 2-3 times, I combo'ed him accordingly, and all went well. I had 3 other 1-CC's, dropping a life at Monster (ST 4), Blood (ST 7), Doppel (ST 8 ) and Genocide. I landed a 1-LC just now, and decided to write this post (EDIT: OK, a few hours ago, whence the double post).

I still have ambivalent thoughts and feelings about the game. I find the patchwork design...not bad but at times lazy. Ninjas and underwater cities, then a visit to Callisto? OK, whatever. The game engine feels like a prototype that was to be tested and refined before using it for a more fleshed out project (i.e. Cadillacs'n Dinosaurs). Still, it's a short game and it plays closer to a Technos game, as you can control the enemy flow and the pace more than in Final Fight. Nevertheless, a victory is a victory.

Does anyone have a difficulty list of Capcom belt scrollers, btw?

...Actually, thanks Air Master Burst for the answer in the other thread, I agree with the list. Final Fight and Armored Warriors will probably be the last ones I will take on, and D&D: SOM is a game that I 1-CC'ed in co-op, but do not like enough anymore to also 1-CC in 1-player mode. I will probably try Knights and Cadillacs, at some point (2023?).

Grudges require time to be handled, after all.

[Air Master Burst]

Armored Warriors is a total bastard, that game gets real hectic later on and the only reliable cheese tactic makes everything take FOREVER. It took me ages to score the 1CC.

I'm about 50 hours into my attempt at the Cody 1CC in Final Fight and I'm almost there. I've 1CC'd all the stages individually with save states, I just need to string a full run together. Stage 2 and Stage 5 are the hard ones.

[Kriegor]

Stage 6 was the hardest one for me. I reached a point where I could consistantly get to 6 yet never finish it. You need at least one extra life for this stage, but not dying a single time before this point is preferable.

Bravo for the 1CC on Captain Commando. I always had a very hard time with this game. It's my weakest one from Capcom.

[Randorama]

Kriegor, thanks a lot. It took me literally decades, though I probably spent little time with the game, each time I attempted to play it for the 1-CC...

Anyway, the game has two JP revisions: 91/09 (i.e. September 1991), and 91/12. The second revision is more balanced: stages are a bit harder, characters deal a bit more damage, some bosses are harder (Yamato, ST 3 and Dr. T.W., ST 5) but other bosses are easier, as they lack attack patterns with cancelling hits (Shtrom jr., ST 2; Monster, ST 4 and Genocide, ST 9). The EU and US versions are based on the second revision, at any case.

[BulletMagnet]

Not sure if there's a better thread for this, but I know Fight n Rage is pretty well-regarded around here, and an interview with the creator was posted on Youtube the other day.

[Gamer707b]

Not sure if there's a better thread for this, but I know Fight n Rage is pretty well-regarded around here, and an interview with the creator was posted on Youtube the other day.

Fight N Rage probably, no it DOES have the best fighting/combo system in any beat em up that I've ever played. Very deep. I think many people slept on this game though.