S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

[Kriegor]

Not sure if there's a better thread for this, but I know Fight n Rage is pretty well-regarded around here, and an interview with the creator was posted on Youtube the other day.

Fight N Rage probably, no it DOES have the best fighting/combo system in any beat em up that I've ever played. Very deep. I think many people slept on this game though.

I like how you combo in Alien vs Predator or in Streets of Rage 4 more. Fight'n Rage gives too much freedom for my taste, I prefer when it's more structured, like in a proper fighting game. To me, the biggest selling point of Fight'n Rage is how arcadey it is. It feels like a modern take on Cadillacs & Dinosaurs in an era where even Beat'em up focus on story progression, introductive levels, RPG mechanics, silver bullet mechanics, etc. which really hurt their pacing and replayability. Also it's the only modern BTU with strike grabs and down up special which I find astonishing.

It's probably the BTU with the least amount of flaws ever made.

[velo]

I like how you combo in Alien vs Predator or in Streets of Rage 4 more. Fight'n Rage gives too much freedom for my taste, I prefer when it's more structured, like in a proper fighting game. To me, the biggest selling point of Fight'n Rage is how arcadey it is. It feels like a modern take on Cadillacs & Dinosaurs in an era where even Beat'em up focus on story progression, introductive levels, RPG mechanics, silver bullet mechanics, etc. which really hurt their pacing and replayability. Also it's the only modern BTU with strike grabs and down up special which I find astonishing.

It's probably the BTU with the least amount of flaws ever made.

It's the only modern one I've played that feels like it was made with real love of the old games rather than nostalgia. Most devs probably don't know strike grabs were a thing.

I mean, sure, SoR2 has the jab infinite thing, but it's only situationally useful (especially in Mania mode), doesn't break the game, and most importantly it can be completely ignored and the game is still totally playable and clearable. That doesn't describe KoTM2 or DD1 at all...

The jab infinite may not solve the game, but SoR2 feels like you have to lock down the enemies one way or the other and not even let them try to fight back, even moreso on Mania when they move so much faster than you can. I'm pretty bad but consulting Mania 1ccs it seems like even good players end up in hot water if they flub a loop and let a mook stand up and start doing stuff. Even the regular dudes are faster than you and have better punch speed/range...

But yeah it's nowhere near straight busted in the way KoTM2 and DD1 are, can't argue that. Maybe I'm mad because I suck, can't discount the possibility.

[Shredder's Revenge] is not balanced around the taunt mechanic. It's balanced around the dodge/counter two step move.

I hate this stuff lol... I mean if there's one thing I could beg devs never to do, it's make the counter the best move in the game...

[Sima Tuna]

Beat em ups with infinites may not be "solved" games, but the infinites definitely change how you approach the challenges the game offers. I don't really care for that. I prefer when a game says, "no, you must play well and engage with my mechanics, not set up 1 fucking exploit and win with touch-of-death." As much as I love Final Fight, look at how players deal with Sodom and Rolento in that game. I can't even blame the players. The "correct" way to solve those fights is to not let the boss do anything. You get them caught in a death loop and they die without touching you. It's a flaw of the game. If that game were remade today, I would hope an "arrange" mode would be added to tone down boss i-frames while removing death loops and touch-of-death combos. Because allowing Sodom or Rolento to get their patterns started is a recipe for the game over screen, which kind of forces you to learn the cheese strats.

Fight 'n' Rage achieves the impossible, in that every boss is completely fair and reasonable. They have very few i-frames and you can respond to whatever they're doing. There's never a moment where Fight 'n' Rage says, "you let the boss start this pattern, so now you're just fucked. Cough up that credit, buddy."

EVEN Vendetta has a single boss pattern where you're just fucked if you don't know it's coming (final boss machine gun meme attack.) For the most part, Vendetta is an extremely fair game. Especially compared to other beat em ups of the era. But it still has that little bit of cheapness, where you kind of have to preempt certain boss movements and lock them in place with infinites.

Fight 'n' Rage is a 10/10 game just on the basis of its gameplay balance. I'll admit to not having played every beat em up ever made, but I can't think of another beat em up as finely tuned as Fight 'n' Rage. For me, that eclipses any minor complaints I might have about the aesthetics.

SoR 4 bosses spam hyper armor way too much for me to place it in the same class. SoR 4 is a good game and if someone thinks it's their favorite SoR game or even GOAT, that's cool. But I get tired of the hyper armor spam and I don't like being forced to spam my own invincible attacks in response.

[Air Master Burst]

As much as I love Final Fight, look at how players deal with Sodom and Rolento in that game. I can't even blame the players. The "correct" way to solve those fights is to not let the boss do anything. You get them caught in a death loop and they die without touching you. It's a flaw of the game.

Sodom and Rolento are both very beatable without cheese looping, it's just harder and takes longer. Final Fight is an incredibly fair game across the board. What you're describing sounds more like the bosses in Captain Commando.

Fight'N Rage is top tier for sure though, definitely better than most of the classics. I'd put AVP, D&D Shadows, and SOR2/R above it but not much else.

[Sima Tuna]

Final Fight is an incredibly fair game in every way except the boss fights, which are total bullshit. Having learned the bullshit doesn't make those boss fights not bullshit. When a boss is able to move fullscreen while completely invincible, that's bullshit. Sodom, Rolento, Abigail, even the Andore double cage match have so many instances of times when the bosses are totally invincible but the game gives you zero indication that is the case. You're not given any visual indication or any audio indication. You just have to know that the cage match Andore's have massive fucking i-frames when getting up off a knockdown, even though normal Andore's have none. You have to know which attacks Abigail does put him in a shitload of i-frames. Same for Sodom and Rolento. At least Rolento rolls around, so that's a visual cue. The rolling and jumping are fine, but I think he also has other times he's invincible without visual tells.

About the only bosses in Final Fight I'm okay with are Damnd and maaaaaybe the final boss. Just because he's the final boss and I expect a certain amount of i-frame abuse and instant kills in an arcade last boss. Damnd is pathetically easy because he's a tutorial, although he still gets to position for free while invincible.

If you compare the bosses in Final Fight to the bosses in Vendetta, I'm telling you that the latter are so much better designed. The i-frame abuse is way lower. They can still be hard as shit and absolutely destroy you in one combo. But they don't spam i-frames all the time.

SoR2 and 3 aren't free from the i-frame bullshit either btw. Everyone remembers that one screen with like 4 fucking Jets that can barely ever be damaged because they're always invincible.

[Air Master Burst]

I don't see the mere existence of i-frames as an indicator of unfairness or poor game design. When used well I think it's a perfectly acceptable way to spice things up and add some challenge. Different strokes, I guess.

Sodom and Rolento both clearly telegraph all of their attacks, and Sodom doesn't actually have that many i-frames, he just has very high priority on his charge. Jump attacks always beat it out. The double Andore match is super easy with Cody since they give you all the weapons, but I haven't really played much with the other two so maybe it's an issue. Abigail is a bastard for sure, but if you can save a sword you can outreach him with good timing. He's definitely bordering on unfair, but he's the only boss in FF1 that gets close. I don't think any of the FF1 bosses have instakills, even with the difficulty maxed out, although I admit I might not have seen all of Belger's arsenal in decades since he's so easy to zone.

[BurlyHeart]

https://www.sor2newera.com/#DemoDownload

I think you need the Steam ROM (maybe another will suffice?) to actually run this.

A fan-made port of Streets of Rage 2 to modern platforms.

We ported SOR2 manually via reverse engineering to create the best version of the game ever!
Use the full power of modern technologies without emulation.
Version 2.0 comes with:

Classic mode - a true recreation of the original game.
30th Anniversary mode - an enhanced version of the game in widescreen, fluid controls and countless bugfixes.
Local and online multiplayer - up to 4 players.
Built-in speedrun time splits and game replays.
A couple surprises that you unlock by completing achievements.

Planned for next version is customization capabilities for you to create your own Streets of Rage game, with custom characters and levels in HD.

[Leandro]

https://www.sor2newera.com/#DemoDownload

I think you need the Steam ROM (maybe another will suffice?) to actually run this.

A fan-made port of Streets of Rage 2 to modern platforms.

We ported SOR2 manually via reverse engineering to create the best version of the game ever!
Use the full power of modern technologies without emulation.
Version 2.0 comes with:

Classic mode - a true recreation of the original game.
30th Anniversary mode - an enhanced version of the game in widescreen, fluid controls and countless bugfixes.
Local and online multiplayer - up to 4 players.
Built-in speedrun time splits and game replays.
A couple surprises that you unlock by completing achievements.

Planned for next version is customization capabilities for you to create your own Streets of Rage game, with custom characters and levels in HD.

Really good, SOR2 in Widescreen. I didn't understand the stretch screen option though. Why Stretched but not Smooth? What not smooth means?

[Lander]

I was ready to love SoR4, but the score and ranking system reduce it from top replayable beat 'em up to a fun run-and-done at best.

Oh what, you unleashed stylish carnage all the way through this corridor of dudes? Well too bad, you took an attrition punch from the last-but-one guy, so none of it counts.

The combo system and expanded moveset want you to play the game as if it's Devil May Cry, but the AI aggression and (lack of) defensive game is too clasically SoR for that to be viable within a system that deletes your points on hit. You have to either play flawlessly at all times, or go against every action game instinct and choose to run away at peak flow so you can drop combo and bank the score in full knowledge that you probably could have done better. Pah.

Frustrating, since - twink villains and no playable Max at launch aside - it had all the right ingredients to be top-tier.
In the end, Streets of Rage Remake remains unchallenged as the most mechanically well-defined incarnation the series ever had.

[rapoon]

Picked up The TakeOver today on ps5. Anyone thinking bout grabbing this, I'd strongly discourage it. You can't remap the controls, and the dev is using an unorthodox scheme (B/Circle is mapped to a standard attack).
Don't let me change the default controls? fuck you.

[Sima Tuna]

I learned that the hard way. I heard so many people shill The Takeover, but most of them weren't beat em up players. So that was my little lesson, about not trusting random youtubers who recommend games.

[Air Master Burst]

I got it for like 3 bucks on a Steam sale but it's barely worth that. Looks and handles like shit.

Get Final Vendetta instead, it's an excellent game despite being a bit too easy.

[Marc]

Doing the random MAME thing on my handheld on sat and stumbled across Denjin Makai 2. Holy balls, this is some seriously chaotic and fun shit.

[Kriegor]

I got it for like 3 bucks on a Steam sale but it's barely worth that. Looks and handles like shit.

Get Final Vendetta instead, it's an excellent game despite being a bit too easy.

My thoughts exactly.

[Air Master Burst]

Shredder's Revenge got a pretty major update, including some dip switch settings for custom games that should vastly improve the experience. The BIGGEST one for me, is that you can set it so special attacks take a chunk of life gauge instead of using the special bar, just like nature intended. They also let you make enemies faster, more aggressive, and explode on death; as well as tuned some of the more annoying bosses.

If you hate the dodge roll it probably still won't win you over, but they've addressed just about every other major complaint.

[BurlyHeart]

Shredder's Revenge got a pretty major update, including some dip switch settings for custom games that should vastly improve the experience. The BIGGEST one for me, is that you can set it so special attacks take a chunk of life gauge instead of using the special bar, just like nature intended. They also let you make enemies faster, more aggressive, and explode on death; as well as tuned some of the more annoying bosses.

If you hate the dodge roll it probably still won't win you over, but they've addressed just about every other major complaint.

That's interesting for sure. I might re-visit it in the new year.

[Kriegor]

If you hate the dodge roll it probably still won't win you over, but they've addressed just about every other major complaint.

Can you turn off the super armor that 90% of the enemies have ?

[velo]

I was ready to love SoR4, but the score and ranking system reduce it from top replayable beat 'em up to a fun run-and-done at best.

Oh what, you unleashed stylish carnage all the way through this corridor of dudes? Well too bad, you took an attrition punch from the last-but-one guy, so none of it counts.

The combo system and expanded moveset want you to play the game as if it's Devil May Cry, but the AI aggression and (lack of) defensive game is too clasically SoR for that to be viable within a system that deletes your points on hit. You have to either play flawlessly at all times, or go against every action game instinct and choose to run away at peak flow so you can drop combo and bank the score in full knowledge that you probably could have done better. Pah.

Frustrating, since - twink villains and no playable Max at launch aside - it had all the right ingredients to be top-tier.
In the end, Streets of Rage Remake remains unchallenged as the most mechanically well-defined incarnation the series ever had.

I don't like it either. Mayhem Brawler swiped the SoR4 score system... really wish they hadn't.

[BrianC]

https://www.sor2newera.com/#DemoDownload

I think you need the Steam ROM (maybe another will suffice?) to actually run this.

I was able to use the rom I dumped from my actual cart with it.

[Squire Grooktook]

So what's the general feeling of Golden Axe 1. Both the arcade version and the slightly expanded Mega Drive port.

I always kind of passed over the game because my impression of it was that the dash attack was overpowered and that the end game always boiled down to a tedious drawn out fight against death adder / death bringer relying on dashing pokes.

Been playing the MD version a bit now and while I'm not sure if that old judgement holds true, I do feel like I appreciate the games overall moveset more now. Jump attacks, super jump down stabs, dash attacks, and standard melee are nice to mix up and use in different situations. I've only been dabbling in it a bit though so I haven't drawn a final judgement yet.

[Sima Tuna]

For the time it came out, Golden Axe is/was incredibly advanced. Primarily because of the wide moveset and lightning-fast combat compared to other brawlers. The first game is rather basic with regard to enemy types and variations, however. I like Golden Axe, but Golden Axe 3 is my preference. I feel like 3 is where they hit their stride, at least on consoles. You have an even wider moveset in 3, but there are also more types of enemies to take on, who behave in different ways. A lot of Golden Axe 1 is you vs two, maybe three dudes, all of whom have the exact same AI.

Dash attack overpowered? Depends. If you can reliably counter-dash every enemy type then I guess it is. But they will try to dash attack you too. Personally, I think properly timed jump attacks are harder for the AI to handle (and thus more overpowered? I guess?)

Golden Axe deserves a SoR4. I'd like to see it brought into the modern age of vidya gaems, but without any of that Beast Rider bullshit.

[Squire Grooktook]

Dash attack overpowered? Depends. If you can reliably counter-dash every enemy type then I guess it is. But they will try to dash attack you too.

For me it was more that dash attacks feel like the safest/optimal way to approach an enemy and score a quick knockdown when you're not sure if you can safely get into range for a "normal" poke or attack. Being able to just rapidly advance on an opponent with an enormous, active hitbox seemed just objectively better than going in for the standard combo, damage options aside.

I do like that enemies dash attack too though. It adds a little bit of reactiveness and danger during the stages of footsies when you'd normally just be getting into range.

[Leandro]

So what's the general feeling of Golden Axe 1. Both the arcade version and the slightly expanded Mega Drive port.

I always kind of passed over the game because my impression of it was that the dash attack was overpowered and that the end game always boiled down to a tedious drawn out fight against death adder / death bringer relying on dashing pokes.

Been playing the MD version a bit now and while I'm not sure if that old judgement holds true, I do feel like I appreciate the games overall moveset more now. Jump attacks, super jump down stabs, dash attacks, and standard melee are nice to mix up and use in different situations. I've only been dabbling in it a bit though so I haven't drawn a final judgement yet.

I've only played the Mega Drive version and it's a worth game going for the 1cc. I remember it took me years to finally get the 1cc, figuring out which character was better for me... I thought the Dwarf was the best for the longest time but I was wrong. Ended up clearing with Tyris Flare, finally figuring out the right spots to use her magic and do tremendous damage.
There isn't a special credit scene for 1cc, but I believe it's the only way to reach the highest rank displayed on the scoreboard after the clear, so there is a bit of incentive.

Once you get the enemy in a right position, the super jump down stab is the way to go for most damage against Big HP enemies. Also, using the environment to make dangerous enemies fall for their death is recommended.

[Bassa-Bassa]

For the time it came out, Golden Axe is/was incredibly advanced. Primarily because of the wide moveset and lightning-fast combat compared to other brawlers.

I don't think so. Golden Axe's moveset is not wider than something like Double Dragon 2's if you leave apart the magic attacks. It couldn't innovate even in the different selectable characters, as Dynasty Wars predates it by a few months. The escalating magic system was the only thing it brought to the table, but the game's so easy and the AI so elementary that it didn't add any actual depth in the end. Much like Uchida's previous game Altered Beast, GA's success owes it all to the aesthetics, which was, and still is, wonderfully conceived and executed.

[Sengoku Strider]

For the time it came out, Golden Axe is/was incredibly advanced. Primarily because of the wide moveset and lightning-fast combat compared to other brawlers.

I don't think so. Golden Axe's moveset is not wider than something like Double Dragon 2's if you leave apart the magic attacks. It couldn't innovate even in the different selectable characters, as Dynasty Wars predates it by a few months. The escalating magic system was the only thing it brought to the table, but the game's so easy and the AI so elementary that it didn't add any actual depth in the end. Much like Uchida's previous game Altered Beast, GA's success owes it all to the aesthetics, which was, and still is, wonderfully conceived and executed.

I remember when the comic book store near my friend's place first got it in. The thing that really jumped out, aside from the visuals, was how visceral the weapon blows were, and just how ultraviolent the idea of doing combos with those weapons seemed. It was certainly one of the more intense things kid me had seen to that point, and it got instant cred with us as a badass game. I'd put the weapon impact under game feel rather than just aesthetics though.

[Bassa-Bassa]

But what you're describing is purely aesthetics (which includes sound design, of course), unless you're implying response to input commands, which doesn't seem like it.

[Squire Grooktook]

Personally I think things like "feedback" stand on a very blurry and hard to classify or define line between "gameplay" and what most would call "aesthetics" or "audiovisuals'. Because really strong feedback can viscerally change the way gameplay itself "feels" to play and the quality threreof, in a way that music or visuals do not.

[Sima Tuna]

For the time it came out, Golden Axe is/was incredibly advanced. Primarily because of the wide moveset and lightning-fast combat compared to other brawlers.

I don't think so. Golden Axe's moveset is not wider than something like Double Dragon 2's if you leave apart the magic attacks.

Is it not? Golden Axe has:

Basic strings
Running and running attacks
Jump attacks
Running jump attacks
Plunging attacks (think link from zelda 2)
Throws
Magic
Vehicles (animals) with their own basic movesets

Not only this, but the inputs for all of these moves are rather elegant, especially compared to Technos' brawlers. Golden Axe also has a great visual style, but I think nobody would stick with the game for long if it didn't feel so dang satisfying to pull off all these different moves. The main flaw of Golden Axe 1 is the simplicity of enemy design, but your character feels extremely powerful and snappy. How many beat em ups made in or before 1989 control so well with such a large moveset?

[Marc]

Could never get into GA. It feels really bland, and completely lacking in impact.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Personally I think things like "feedback" stand on a very blurry and hard to classify or define line between "gameplay" and what most would call "aesthetics" or "audiovisuals'. Because really strong feedback can viscerally change the way gameplay itself "feels" to play and the quality threreof, in a way that music or visuals do not.

I believe I'd need a definition of "feedback" there, please, because I want to think you don't mean the response to inputs I mentioned, as it'd be way too obvious? If it is something like how a weapon hits and its perception, I don't see how that's not part of the aesthetics.

Is it not? Golden Axe has:

Basic strings
Running and running attacks
Jump attacks
Running jump attacks
Plunging attacks (think link from zelda 2)
Throws
Magic
Vehicles (animals) with their own basic movesets

Not only this, but the inputs for all of these moves are rather elegant, especially compared to Technos' brawlers. Golden Axe also has a great visual style, but I think nobody would stick with the game for long if it didn't feel so dang satisfying to pull off all these different moves. The main flaw of Golden Axe 1 is the simplicity of enemy design, but your character feels extremely powerful and snappy. How many beat em ups made in or before 1989 control so well with such a large moveset?

You forgot the rolling attack (the key to success with the dwarf). OK, I guess it's somewhat remarkable for its time, but they didn't do much with it in the end, did they? I'm not necessarily saying it's not satisfying, I'm saying it's shallow. Compare it with something like Double Dragon 2's knee attack you only can do when an enemy's rising - it's not short-term satisfaction as it needs practice, but it's terrific satisfaction, and more longlasting. GA just gets old way too soon.