S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

[Randorama]

Time for a necro-bump, inspired by the latest events at this very fine thread.

We were discussing score systems and bmups, and Sumez's observation that the genre did not offer much of scoring experiences, at least for its arcade titles, stuck in my head for a few days.
Jeneki, in some other thread, mentioned an exception (OK, too lazy to find the right post again, sorry), this one:

Pulirula is an extremely wacky and colourful game that seems to channel late 19th century/early 20th century fantasy and "gaslight" books and (early) comics for children: a bit of Alice in Wonderland but also Winsor McKay's Nemo.

The game involves a simple mechanic: both players can hit and smash enemies to the other side of the screen by using down+hit. The enemies will transform back into animals, and the score they will give, if collected, is multiplied by the distance they travel before you collect them. If you are on the left edge of the screen, hit and transform an enemy sending it to the right edge, and then collect the released enemy, it will be worth 350 points. Lower distances may give 240, 150 or 70 points (EDIT: corrected the scores).

A bit plain, but the game is designed in such a way that playing it for score is by no means easy (ask me "why?" for a subjective rant: youtube offers plenty of videos, though).

I absolutely adore the game, though it is certainly not a game system masterpiece...I wish that I could go back in time and ask my uncle to buy a board for its arcade. The ludo-pathic angst I feel about not having played this title in the arcade is deliciously maddening, given my taliban-like fervour for Taito.

EDIT:

Knights of the Round also has a relatively complex score system. Killing enemies of the same type triggers a multiplier, up to a x4. If you kill 4 "tall man" in a row (i.e. the guys with the huge-ass sword), you should get 120x1, then 120x2, 120x3 and 120x4 points. Using the tap attack should then activate an item drop, most of the time (...or so I recall). Chromatic variations are acceptable (e.g. "grey armour guy-->red armour guy-->black armour guy" counts as a x3 chain). I think that it should be hard to max out levels without working a bit on score.

If anyone can think of other titles offering score opportunities, I am glad to read about them.

[Gamer707b]

Glad this thread is pooping again. Just the right timing for me. I bought the Japanese physical of Capcom Belt Action a while back and dabbled in it, but haven't played it seriously yet. Planning to change that real soon. Any noob heads up advice on playing Final Fight.

[BIL]

Glad this thread is pooping again.

There can be only one pooping thread 3;

re Final Fight, EVN has some excellent general pointers here. Stage 2 being an early wall is great to know - the game might seem impossible, if you're expecting a linear difficulty curve. As EVN says, while the last stage is the toughest, several beween it and the second are surprisingly mild. (an aside: Capcom's similarly feared Gun.Smoke has a very similar curve, with st3 presenting a steep wall - towering over much of the game's remainder, and by association, whipping you into good shape for it)

From my novice standpoint (usually one-lifing to Abigail): don't be shy about bombing. You'll lose a helluva lot more eating a pincer, than you will by defusing it with a quick bomb and reposition. Bombs take a tiny fraction of the HP a jab from midsized enemies, and eventually even zakos will. As you learn where the big guaranteed HP restores are, you'll be able to budget out bombs with progressively greater accuracy.

This isn't an excuse to ignore your fundamentals, of course. One of them is that FF is perhaps the most literal example of "offense is the best defense" in the genre. Haggar and Cody's combo enders and throws have lots of i-frames, balancing out their weak mobility. Note that holding [up] or [down] will chain combos directly into throws, a vital mechanic! EDIT: I've not used Guy, no comment on him from me just yet. He's generally regarded as the challenge character, charitably, and "Cody but worse," elsewise.

Spoiler

^^^ note the off-axis attacks versus Andore, a beltscroller basic. on-axis, his near-instant straight will blow your head off. Once I've gotten in via combo, my punch and suplex i-frames keep him locked down.

Spoiler

^^^ Another beater fundamental, deliberately ignored for the purposes of a good GIF: wave partitioning. Don't scroll the screen unnecessarily, and you won't spawn too many enemies at once. This is a total gamechanger at many points, beyond the st2 opener seen above - stage 3's ending alleyway being a example. Double Dragon II AC and Crime Fighters can both become near-impossible if you rush ahead, instead of breaking up their waves; FF followed this example.

Conversely, sometimes it's beneficial to blast through sections at top speed - this'll cause nasty enemies spawned along the way to be swallowed up by the left screen edge. YMMV. The final stage has several candidates for this technique.

Spoiler

^^^ Another good illustration of how powerful your i-frames are, provided you've planted your feet in a suitable spot. Particularly with Haggar, you need to think of enemies as not only threats to neutralise, but tools to exploit. (anyone who digs this principle should immediately play Natsume's The Ninja Warriors Again for SFC, as well as its PS4/SW redux The Ninja Warriors Once Again. Actually anyone who enjoys good brawling, period, should play them)

FF's a wickedly hard game, and as Hagane has argued forcefully in the past, a potentially bad first arcade beater for newbies; The Punisher is generally regarded as Capcom's best entry point, and I'd suggest the much comfier Battle Circuit, too (the latter in fine form in the Belt Action Pack). However, if you're not easily shaken, and don't mind a more restrictive game model, FF may be just the ticket. I love its inimitably brutal sense of weight and batshit-yet-methodical crowd rushes, even if the last stage still crushes my credit.

Spoiler

^^^ No other brawler, even Capcom's own, has quite that sense of booming violence. It's paradoxically a total nightmare and also one of the most innocently feelgood action games ever.

[Kino]

If anyone can think of other titles offering score opportunities, I am glad to read about them.

I'm only aware of two. The first Denjin Makai, and Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon.

The aforementioned is basically the Gunnail scoring system transposed into b'mup format. When you're at/close to max health, the score multiplier is x1, at moderate health it's x2, at low health it's x4. Furthermore, when you're at low health you have access to a Desperation Move, which yields the highest amount of points out of all your special moves. So theoretically, if you're aiming for WR tier scores, one would simply stay at low health the entire time and spam their character's DM ad nauseum during every scene (specifically Belva's DM, since it does roughly 10K per hit, whereas the others only get 5K or less.) Not so easy in practice, since most Desperations leave you wide open if you miss, and as Denjin Makai grants you no extra lives, missing usually spells instant game over... Macaw summed it up best when he described DM1 scoreplay as "walking an absolute tightrope of risk".

The system in Sailor Moon is a bit goofier, but equally satisfying in it's own way. That one's mostly based on tossing enemies as often as humanly possible, since it does minuscule damage + offers the highest point yield. The strict timer makes it interesting, however, since it's not always feasible to isolate and throw every single baddie without getting a time over... so you're constantly having to balance between throw-spamming or opting to do infinite combos for much quicker disposal. Also, when you have the max amount of bombs in stock, every excess bomb pickup is worth 30K, ergo no-bombing will contribute a large chunk to your final score (it should be said, the no-bomb is no small task in a game this unforgiving!) Finally, certain bosses can be milked with your infinite combo until time's about to expire, and if you're really going for the glory, you're encouraged to suicide your sole surplus life early on against one of them to maximize the milk, making an already tense game all the more nerve-wracking.

If you wish to see some high-level score runs in action, there's a 3.2M inp file on MARP for DM1 (albeit using the old busted romset where Belva has the invincibility glitch ), and a near-WR replay of PSSM on youtube.

[Gamer707b]

@BILL Maybe I was pooping when I posted my comment. Or maybe I meant to say popping, not sure. BUT, two things are interesting. One, that there is an actual pooping thread and two, you took the time to find it and give me the link. Haha.

But, seriously, thanks for the Final Fight info. Wow! This game is deeper than I thought. I've always wanted to get into it since I bought the bundle, but now even more so. Man does Capcom have some amazing beat em ups.

[BIL]

No trouble at all bud, that thread is a fallen legend of the forum. (RIP BAD POOPS 3;)

[To Far Away Times]

Final Fight advice:

1. Use Hagger's backwards jump attack
2. Memorize all enemy placements
3. Scroll the screen carefully
4. Try not to cry
5. Cry alot.

This game is hard AF. Seem's like one of the hardest beat 'em ups out there.

[Randorama]

Thanks for the explanations, Kino! I will watch the video when and possibly get the inp when I have more time. I am half tempted to try both score systems out, to get an idea about their difficulty.
Speaking of which: would you happen to know if Denjin Makai 2 has any interesting scoring opportunities? I did not get this impression, when trying it out.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

When I played the game, years ago (best attempts only making it up to Abigail, who I never learnt how to deal with) I always picked Haggar myself - no denying that he's by far the most satisfying of the cast - but I think my principles have slackened enough in the time since that I'd have to pick Cody, were I to return to the game now. His simpler crowd control - and his lack of a randomly-escapable grab, like Haggar seems to have - make him feel like he's a much easier choice to clear the game with.

[Rastan78]

In another thread we were talking about how you can quick rise after a knock down by mashing in FF. With autofire you can get up way faster. This can keep you from getting death looped by certain enemies, like Sodom, rushing you down on your attempt to stand.

One of those little mechanics where some players might pick up on it immediately, and others could play the game for years without noticing.

[Gamer707b]

I plan on clearing this sooner than later. And yes, I agree that Haggar is the most satisfying tom use. Not to derail the conversation, but are some of you familiar with Capcom's other beat em ups? Is Armored Warriors, Captain Commando, Battle Circuit, Warriors Of fate just as deep and good? I remember playing Final Fight and Captain Commando back in the arcade day, but have no recollection of the other ones.

[Randorama]

Well, we might re-name the thread "bmups advice?", really

On Warriors of Fate, you can check my posts on page 5, but in this post I would add a short: "It's OK; far wider move-set than FF, longer game, more complex set pieces and bosses, slow pace".
A conceptual sequel, though it may not be your cup of tea.

On Captain Commando, we should also have Ruldra's comments in this or some thread (linked here but on a previous page, anyway).
My two cents is that Capcom were trying a faster-paced, more dynamic game but succeeded only to some extent, since all running/charging attacks need to be handled with care and the FF-like crowd control methods tend to be safer. I find the bosses particularly exasperating, and the final boss is really hard without the exploit.
I don't think it's bad, and the really zany pulpy Science Fiction atmosphere is something I still find endearing, but aiming for the 1-CC may be really tricky (well, it's a Capcom bmup, after all).

On other games...I don't want to steal posting space to people who probably can give more useful answers than this one

[chum]

The game involves a simple mechanic: both players can hit and smash enemies to the other side of the screen by using down+hit.

Any kinds of attacks generally gets the same results. The enemy gets pushed far away to the side of the screen regardless of which attack is used, if it is that specific enemy type.
Various enemy types are immovable when you hit them, anything carrying the 3 chicks included.

The enemies will transform back into animals, and the score they will give, if collected, is multiplied by the distance they travel before you collect them. If you are on the left edge of the screen, hit and transform an enemy sending it to the right edge, and then collect the released enemy, it will be worth 350 points. Lower distances may give 240, 150 or 70 points (EDIT: corrected the scores).

Highest value is 480 points per animal, which you can reach with no screen-scroll by collecting the back half of the animal hitbox as it leaves the screen. Alternatively you can sometimes do it with screen-scroll to avoid needing any timing precision.

A bit plain, but the game is designed in such a way that playing it for score is by no means easy (ask me "why?" for a subjective rant: youtube offers plenty of videos, though).

It is easy. It is easier to get pretty close to the WR in Pulirula than it is to simply 1cc hard games like Final Fight. I have almost the exact same score every run into the endgame. Simply because collecting high value animals is so easy to do. The game wants you to play slowly and carefully, while not challenging you very much.
Also I do not agree that this is a good scoring system due to everything other than the animal collection. A big part of your score comes from using Magic, but magic is random. All the guaranteed magic you got adds up to using Magic for score 6 times before you run out. However, you can get magic 7, 8, or even 9+ times if you're incredibly lucky, and each new magic item you can get adds more to your score than you could possibly get from optimizing your animal collection more because there is a limit to how much you can get from that.
For example, getting lucky enough to get 7 magic instead of 6, which is pretty common, would add at least 8,000 points to your score. That's a fuckload of perfect animal collects. And that's just 1 extra magic. Getting any extra magic at all enables you to get more score, for free, than you could possibly get with 1 less magic.
Meaning that most of Pulirula comes down to luck, since the scoring system is so easy to optimize.
Furthermore the game is incredibly glitchy. Playing this game for score is definitely, certainly not something they paid a lot of attention to when they designed it. There are so many ways your score can die due to bugs it's kind of hilarious.
My current best pace would have cleared with 477k if it had 7 magic instead of 6. And at any point the game could randomly let you use 8+ magic... It's dumb!
I do agree with you though that the animal collection is a nice scoring mechanic, just not that it's difficult.

[Randorama]

Highest value is 480 points per animal, which you can reach with no screen-scroll by collecting the back half of the animal hitbox as it leaves the screen. Alternatively you can sometimes do it with screen-scroll to avoid needing any timing precision.

Ah-ah, I knew this but I completely forgot about it, thanks! Let's leave the old post as it is, your information corrects my old information, and anyway your video will show this technique.

Also I do not agree that this is a good scoring system due to everything other than the animal collection. A big part of your score comes from using Magic, but magic is random. All the guaranteed magic you got adds up to using Magic for score 6 times before you run out. However, you can get magic 7, 8, or even 9+ times if you're incredibly lucky, and each new magic item you can get adds more to your score than you could possibly get from optimizing your animal collection more because there is a limit to how much you can get from that.

Well, I actually did not write that it is good...just not so easy (at least for me!).
I agree that it requires a lot of wave partitioning, as the scoring mechanism requires patience to perform it correctly (and animals running in one direction, right?).
Controlling the number of animals on screen should be a key aspect, and I guess that your video should show this nicely, when it's done
I also forgot about the magic, thanks!

Furthermore the game is incredibly glitchy. Playing this game for score is definitely, certainly not something they paid a lot of attention to when they designed it. There are so many ways your score can die due to bugs it's kind of hilarious. My current best pace would have cleared with 477k if it had 7 magic instead of 6. And at any point the game could randomly let you use 8+ magic... It's dumb!
I do agree with you though that the animal collection is a nice scoring mechanic, just not that it's difficult.

This is a very "Taito-ish" pattern, I think.
Many of their games often give the impression that they were often rushed for release and the programmers overlooked the consequences of their design choices, especially when scoring was involved.
I am pretty sure that we could slowly sift through their catalogue and check how many games show clear oversights on scoring mechanics.
I kinda loved them (and still love them!) a lot exactly for this: the "who cares if it's glitchy, it's a great experience anyway!" attitude.
I think that BIL could write a couple of essays on Elevator Action Returns, or he has already done so in the RMFKSWTF2K thread (OK, I never remember the full acronym, sorry).

More in general, I don't like the animal collection mechanic (Ahem!), because I find it too tricky to execute
I *adore* the style and atmosphere, though, and I even own the OST on CD (if only because the CD cover is delightful).
If you also like the style, I know that there should be a prototype game, emulated in MAME, that should have a similar style but should be more or less a platformer.
I tried it out 2-3 times and found it really nice

[Kino]

Speaking of which: would you happen to know if Denjin Makai 2 has any interesting scoring opportunities? I did not get this impression, when trying it out.

From what I can tell, it revolves around using infinite combos whenever possible. The damage scaling ramps up quick enough to where you're doing zero damage, that you can then just keep a combo going until the timer gets low. So to answer your question, no. No interesting opportunities.

A marked improvement over it's predecessor in every other regard, though. Arguably the one arcade belt scroller that can go toe-to-toe with Capcom's best.

[chum]

You get used to the animal collection over time. Most enemies are quite docile and easy to manage while hitting them 1 or 2 at a time, collect animal, rinse and repeat. Trust me, you'll get used to it if you try!
Patience and knowing each screen is key. Once you have the game memorized, and you play patiently, you will be able to score most animals 350 or 480 points.
There's also special tactics to consider for certain enemies. I've come up with scoring patterns for most of the green Bike groups that are very specific, but surprisingly not hard to do. On some screens it might be necessary to sacrifice score simply due to how they are set up (some screens with the Bamboo shoot enemies that like to spawn in the middle and that can even escape out of the screen if not killed. These enemies are not pushed back by hits).
However I would not be surprised if WR players have found some kinds of solutions to score on those enemies as well.
Some enemies spawn chicks, you can get 3 chicks per enemy and they have the same point values. these enemies are especially important to handle with care, and even take damage intentionally if necessary just to not drop Chicks!

This is a very "Taito-ish" pattern, I think.
Many of their games often give the impression that were rushed for release and the programmers overlooked the consequences of their design choices, especially when scoring was involved.
I am pretty sure that we could slowly sift through their catalogue and check how many games show clear oversights on scoring mechanics.
I kinda loved them (and still love them!) a lot exactly for this: the "who cares if it's glitchy, it's a great experience anyway!" attitude.
I think that BIL could write a couple of essays on Elevator Action Returns, or he has already done so in the RMFKSWTF2K thread (OK, I never remember the full acronym, sorry).

More in general, I don't like the animal collection mechanic (Ahem!), because I find it too tricky to execute
I *adore* the style and atmosphere, though, and I even own the OST on CD (if only because the CD cover is delightful).
If you also like the style, I know that there should be a prototype game, emulated in MAME, that should have a similar style but should be more or less a platformer.
I tried it out 2-3 times and found it really nice

Yes I agree on the presentation and Taito's games. I love Taito's catalogue, and I love Pulirula for similar reasons as something like Darius Gaiden. there's a wonderful world being presented to you. It's creativity at its peak in that era, it's simply psychedelic and fun. However the game has many bugs, oversights, and design elements that are bad. It's one of those games I love with my heart but that was not really meant to be played with a serious mindset. It's just about fun. It almost feels like I'm doing it wrong when I'm trying to get a high score :S
For example, using magic to kill things gives you massive score boosts, while bonus magic can also be spawned completely at random at any given point when there's animals onscreen. Whoever in the world thought that was a good idea?
The many bugs are quite in your face and shouldn't even be that hard to discover. They should've done something about most of these in the playtesting phase.
It's a fantastic game artistically that needed a bit more time in the oven to also hold up in gameplay, imo.

[Randorama]

Kino: Ah, complex score system? Yes, in a sense; interesting? I'd avoid it with all my passion.
Reading the description, I couldn't avoid chuckling several times, to be honest

Chum: I 1-cc'ed this title quite a long time ago on SSaturn (2003?).
I play it from time to time out of nostalgia, but I never developed enough patience to focus on score beyond the first 2-3 stages.
Still: could you please mention some of the bugs? I don't remember any, right now.

[Rastan78]

Well, we might re-name the thread "bmups advice?", really

While we're at it, I thought this was a really useful beginner guide to beat em ups from SoR master Anthopants.

https://youtu.be/9h__BxgiHV0

Like he says there's a total lack of general strategy info for people starting out in the genre. Nice to see a pro player lay out the fundamentals.

[drauch]

No trouble at all bud, that thread is a fallen legend of the forum. (RIP BAD POOPS 3;)

Truly the greatest loss. A stillbirth. Who knows what it could have grown up to be!

All this beat-em-up talk with animals I swore everyone was talking about Growl for a hot minute

[BIL]

The LORD will comfort fallen threads in the hereafter ;-;7

Well, we might re-name the thread "bmups advice?", really

While we're at it, I thought this was a really useful beginner guide to beat em ups from SoR master Anthopants.

https://youtu.be/9h__BxgiHV0

Like he says there's a total lack of general strategy info for people starting out in the genre. Nice to see a pro player lay out the fundamentals.

Superb video! Well worth a look for intermediates too, I'd say.

[Blinge]

Want me to rename thread?

Man i forgot I started this.
My Final Fight dreams are squarely in the past

[BIL]

Beater threads tend to fall off and get swallowed up, in my experience - although that was in the pre-Other Gaming days. I'm tracking three separate ones ATM, for the R2RKMF index, plus this one.

That said, this one's excellent, and probably the best of the lot. Give it an ostentatious title like BMUP-FU: The Way To Beltscroll, or some shit. ;3

[drauch]

Would be sick to have a dedicated beater thread. R2RKMF is god tier, but when there's multiple conversations going at once it tends to swallow up bits and pieces. Maybe some separation would help that?

[Blinge]

In a shameless BIL ripoff, I've renamed the thread

points to anyone who can figure out the acronym

[drauch]

Slug 2 (the) right. Pound (and) stomp them in to mush. Or in the morning!

[Sima Tuna]

In a shameless BIL ripoff, I've renamed the thread

points to anyone who can figure out the acronym

Scroll To the Right Punch Shitheads (something) In The Mouth

Big fan of the popular adventure game "I Have No Mouth And I Must Punch Shitheads In It."

[drauch]

Scroll To the Right Punch Shitheads (something) In The Mouth

Scroll to the Right, Punch Some Suckas in the Mouth!

[Blinge]

Almost there!

S______ 2 Right, Punching S______ T_____ In The Mouth

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Strut 2 Right, Punching Some Thugs In The Mouth?

[drauch]

Slide 2 right, punching strange teenagers in the mouth.

Saunter 2 right, punching slimy thugs in the mouth.

Scamper 2 right, punching scum terrorists in the mouth.

Shuffle 2 right, punching snail trail in the mouth.

Skate (from SoR) 2 right, punching syndicate thugs in the mouth