S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

[BrianC]

Famicom DDII's hardest mode is different from the US version's and puts up more of a fight. That's why I wrote FC instead of NES. Enemies have more stamina, block more often, and can't be insta killed with the knee drop.

TMNT III may not be the hardest beat 'em up, but I personally found it fun to play. Definitely not E tier.

[BIL]

Yeah, FC DDII smooths out the moveset balance quite a bit. The hyper-aggressive AI makes the knee trade often, without absolutely frame-perfect spacing and timing, on top of an already strict input window. And as Brian says, it's no longer an instakill. Still the single hardest-hitting attack, and the best for blasting enemies off ledges, but a lot of fights are more easily controlled via uppercut/spin-kick, and the basic strikes and grapples. Even the obscure counter-knee gains a purpose, being great for stunning Bobos and O'Haras at overlap.

I remember watching NES speedrunners demolish that version's max difficulty with Nothin' But Knee, then getting stomped when I tried the same on FC. I thought I just sucked; then I tried the NES version, and one-lifed it on my first go in like two decades.

I consider Mighty Final Fight neck-and-neck with it for best FC beater. MFF has flawless controls, exceptionally smooth mechanics, and fiery boss duels, but its pure beltscroll could use another onscreen foe, here and there; while DDIIFC has a few minor input drops, made up for by vicious AI, artful concessions to XY combat, and rollicking 2P (plus a surprisingly good, totally un-advertised Duel mode, via 2P/B-Type!). It's not a genre the FC excels at, but I consider these two must-haves.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Been playing Ninja Baseball Bat Man a lot the last week thanks to Kriegor's quality postings. Game's excellent - its presentation rules, of course, but what I'm most surprised by is its commitment to one-off enemy types or minibosses that don't recur. Reminds me of Crime Fighters 2 in a way, though I like this game's robust, Capcom-esque combat a bit more. My only concern is how Green's lightning divekick has slowly changed from a satisfyingly devastating-yet-risky crushing attack to an overly-dominating option as I learn and play more.

[Kriegor]

I respect the game for having each playable character cover their kind of niche. They feel really distinct as a result but it also means balancing them has not been the primary focus. Green is the Pink Ostritch of this game and she suffers the same issue. They wanted her aerial game to be so strong it's actually too strong. She's a real way to change how you approach each fight, that's the plus. The minus is she quickly feels repetitive. Red is my favorite character in Ninja Baseball Bat Man. I love how he rushes into million stab, it makes him feel a bit like Dante.

Another fun aspect of the game is how you can purposefully feel the screen with enemies and bomb them. The same way as in Night Slashers actually. Health is a real tactical resources, especially if you dive into speedrunning.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Cleared Ninja Baseball Bat Man. Great game.

-That last level is no joke. The game really does go crazy with its enemy formations in the final stretch, but throwing all the disparate enemy types together does make for a dramatic finale. I wish the stage had had some non-random health drops before the end - but I suppose giving more would encourage using the health-draining, screen-clearing super more, which was probably tough to balance. (The amount of extra lives you get is pretty nuts in general, but I think it's evened out by just how much damage enemies do to you: a lot of attacks outright do 40 / 50% of your health.)

-The bosses are generally pretty reasonable; it wasn't until after getting the clear that I started getting comfortable fighting stage 4's Ghost Buffalo (who previously felt like the nastiest thing in the game until the final stage). The final boss is a real bastard, though, and I'm not sure what options you have against him short of finicky grab loops or Green's lightning divekicks. But you do have those options, so he isn't that big of a problem.

-I don't really get the other characters' special move options. Red's seems limited and very situational, Yellow's is a good extra source of damage, and Blue's doesn't seem very worthwhile. To be honest I do wish Green's lightning divekick had more recovery on it or something, because it's extremely fun and satisfying to set up and land, especially when using his "double jump" ability (hit jump + attack in the air) to skip its startup at the cost of introducing an extra execution and positioning barrier. But it's just such an overpowering option that despite being fun to use, it smooths out a lot of the game's quality combat.

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Messing with a few other games. I don't know what I'll stick with and clear, if anything at the moment, but I've been having fun with Zero Team - never played this before, but its simple-yet-punishing combat and strong presentation are great - and Knights of the Round - finally managed to get past stage 3 and into stage 5 for the first time; I like a lot about this game's combat even if the parrying system makes no sense to me. (On the subject of KotR, does anyone have any advice for dealing with the stage 3 boss, Arlon? He's a seriously nasty fight who has always torn through multiple lives in every attempt I've made at the game until this last one, and is enough of a brick wall that I've been discouraged from playing this game too seriously.)

[velo]

(On the subject of KotR, does anyone have any advice for dealing with the stage 3 boss, Arlon? He's a seriously nasty fight who has always torn through multiple lives in every attempt I've made at the game until this last one, and is enough of a brick wall that I've been discouraged from playing this game too seriously.)

I got demoralized by Braford and getting the extra life trick at the start of level 3 to work. I've seen KotR rated as both hard and easy compared to the other Capcom belters.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I got demoralized by Braford and getting the extra life trick at the start of level 3 to work. I've seen KotR rated as both hard and easy compared to the other Capcom belters.

I've had both of those wear me down before, and the credit-ending tightrope walk that is the 2up trick is definitely discouraging to get wrong. Nasty beginning to a game - on top of the general combat being very punishing and limited compared to other Capcom brawlers, which already aren't the easiest, I'd consider it one of their more difficult works.

Braford is a scary footsies game in my experience. I don't know of any fully safe way to get him off his horse, but walking right up to him at the start and using your special not only gets you his horse but also gets you get two horse-powered hits on him afterwards once he jumps to the left, which gives you a helpful lead. From there it's a matter of baiting out his own diagonal charges and superjoy, which are both very punishable (and also his flying kick, which is dangerous because he can do it at sharp enough angles to catch you from anywhere if you're not careful). It also helps to keep in mind just how powerful your special is in this game; if you have reserve health when he's nearly down, it's safer to just kamikaze him. He is a tough fight, and I'm definitely no expert on it or the game in general, but I also found him impenetrable at first, and it took a bit before I started getting comfortable fighting him. (That said... going for the 2up trick requires you to be on your last life, so committing to that takes a lot out of this fight, since it means you can just burn an entire life using your special on him.)

I'm still figuring out a method for the 2up trick I'm 100% confident in myself. Most players seem to open up by hitting the bird man with heavy strikes, but I find that gives him more time to wriggle around and get into a position you can't set up a proper kill from. Leading with a basic attack string to knock him down first, while being mindful of his health so you don't kill him early, has worked better for me.

[Randorama]

Knights of the Round is a strange game. I think that Capcom wanted to create something different to avoid cluttering the market with clones of their own Final Fight, but ended up creating a game with not so balanced design choices (e.g. the whole parry system, momentum-based movement). Bosses fall in the "find unique exploit, abuse it" model: this video shows some of Arthur's techniques (sorry, I can't use youtube right now).

It is clear that the programmers wanted something different from a "simple" belt scroller. Case in point, the game also has score system centred on killing enemies of the same type and using special attacks to trigger big item drops. If a player kills e.g. four soldiers in a row, the second, third and fourth enemies will involve a multiplier on scoring (i.e. first soldier is 60 points, second one is 60x2 points, third is 60x3 points, fourth is 60x4 points). The rule applies to any enemy type; furthermore, using the double-tap attack usually results into a treasure chest/bigger item drop, so a player can also get further points.

The problem is that, again, playing for score is generally unintuitive and hard, and again bosses can be really infuriating due to their rigid design. Perhaps there is no more than this, to the game. I want to play the
game and 1-CC it some time soon: a 1-player 1-CC is a grudge that I need to solve since its release. I expect that it will be a frustrating matter, though.

Still, I love the game to bits; as a teen who grew up with fantasy RPG games and books and lived in a medieval, walled city, it maintains a certain subjective charm for me.

Also, +1 for Ninja Baseball Batman, even if it is not really a balanced game. Fun fact: the game was originally designed by Irem America. This is quite surprising, because the ultra-zany, hyper-wacky style reminds me of gag/action manga from the 1980's/1990's.

[velo]

Zero Team has all the fun stuff about Capcom games and none of the designed-on-crack boss fights. I liked that Braford kill in the video, very satisfying to see him die that hard.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Also, +1 for Ninja Baseball Batman, even if it is not really a balanced game. Fun fact: the game was originally designed by Irem America.

Seems the only thing designed in America is the characters an even those were changed in Japan.

IREM JAPAN has the rights for all video game content specific to the “Ninja Baseball Bat Man” game as they designed the game. I retained all of rights to the characters and title which I created at the termination of my deal with Irem.

https://ninjabaseballbatman.com/the-history-of-nbbm/

[BrianC]

Doesn't the JP version have a different title? Something League Man?

edit: Yakyuu Kakutou League-Man

[Randorama]

Also, +1 for Ninja Baseball Batman, even if it is not really a balanced game. Fun fact: the game was originally designed by Irem America.

Seems the only thing designed in America is the characters an even those were changed in Japan.

IREM JAPAN has the rights for all video game content specific to the “Ninja Baseball Bat Man” game as they designed the game. I retained all of rights to the characters and title which I created at the termination of my deal with Irem.

https://ninjabaseballbatman.com/the-history-of-nbbm/

Nevermind but yes, I originally thought that the characters and stages were originally (and entirely) designed by the Irem Japan people.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Finally making it into the final stage of Knights of the Round now. As long as the last boss isn't too crazy and I can improve my consistency a bit, I think this feels clearable. One of my preferred Capcom brawlers probably; I really like its aesthetic (the differing sound effects between your sword striking armored enemies versus unarmored enemies are a great touch) and although I'm still not fully used to its slower attack speed, its methodical pace and unique mechanics are really satisfying.

Most of the bosses from after stage 2 took me a bit to feel out - I assumed you could largely get by without using the block / parry mechanic, but no, the majority of bosses are expressly designed around it. They're fairly rigid fights, but not unfun, generally. I'm not sure about stage 6's Muramasa, though, he really pushes the limits - his jukes are satisfying to properly parry and punish, but once you add in his enemy backup, it becomes a disconcertingly (and maybe also excessively) random fight with a lot of variance.

[BurlyHeart]

Anybody playing SOR4's new patch? Mania+ is a lot of fun! Crazy but fun!

[Sima Tuna]

I tried to play survival mode on switch post-patch and my game crashed at wave 12. Pissed me off and I decided to play something else.

[Kriegor]

I really like what they did to the boss fights. A good boss needs minions. That's what turn a boring Simon Says experience into a quick thinking frantic one.

[Air Master Burst]

Did they fix the Max fight so it doesn't absolutely suck?

[Kriegor]

The addition of two commissioners mid fight makes it a bit more interesting. It's still a poorly designed boss that forces you to wait, dodge, strike two times while he is showcasing his next pattern, rinse and repeat, as if you were playing a modern Souls derivative / 3D character action game without the epic artistic direction going with it.

But still, all bosses benefit from this addition of minions, often in the form of weaker clones. I would have mixed things a bit more, pairing different bosses together but randomizer will help with that.

Regarding the buffs and nerfs they made on each character, I'm a bit less satisfied. Many of the moves they added with the DLC are still breaking the game, with their hitboxes, iframes, and most importantly how much they move your character during their active frames. They turned what could almost have been described as a remake of SOR2, into something more in line with an OpenBor project. I wish global rankings would only take into account submissions made with the vanilla moves.

[Sima Tuna]

I'm not a fan of the SoR4 boss fights generally. When you compare them with boss fights from Fight 'n' Rage, SoR 2 or even Vendetta, the SoR 4 bosses spend way too much time with active hyper armor. You either have to constantly dodge everything they do, or answer with your own invincible/hyper armor counters. More minions don't really fix that (what I consider a) design flaw.

Of course, it's not uncommon at all for beat em up bosses to abuse copious i-frames, and copious hyper armor is just a derivative of that. But I'd think one of the major differences between a good and a great beat em up is the great ones usually have more dynamic and interesting boss fights. Fight 'n' Rage is a fantastic example of how to create tough but fair boss encounters, where the boss is vulnerable to damage almost 100% of the time.

I mean, nobody likes it when the boss just decides your punches will no longer bother him for the next 30 seconds.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Definitely liking Mania+ overall. Admittedly I do miss the previous version of it - it was a really well-balanced mode on the whole - but the improvements to enemy AI (it seems like more enemies can attack at once now) and the sorely-needed boss buffs (adding the elite enemies + boss clones to boss fights is an excellent change, because SoR4's bosses have been one of its biggest weaknesses for a while).

I agree on the alternate moves not being interesting, too. Some of them offer some neat options, but for the most part they flatten out gameplay and character balance nuances. They're too straightforwardly good, and feel primarily balanced for survival - which already isn't that interesting, I think. To be honest, I just ignore them; the original movesets are still stellar. On the whole I'm liking this patch a lot; still one of the best games in the genre.

[Air Master Burst]

Fight 'n' Rage is a fantastic example of how to create tough but fair boss encounters, where the boss is vulnerable to damage almost 100% of the time.

I mean, nobody likes it when the boss just decides your punches will no longer bother him for the next 30 seconds.

Apart from Max I think the SOR4 bosses aren't too bad about this, most of them don't really spend much more time in i-frames than the bisons or the turtles in Fight'N Rage (you could probably also count all the time that raft bat boss stays airborne off to the side, but he's absurdly easy anyway). I think the biggest difference is that Fight'N Rage doesn't use wakeup i-frames nearly as much as SOR4 so it's easier to combo bosses and you don't have to play hit-and-run the whole time.

The other main difference is that in Fight'N Rage you parry instead of dodge roll, which requires better timing and looks/feels cooler so people tend to cut it more slack.