Cuphead, new run'n'gun with old-timey art

[soprano1]

http://pixelatedaudio.com/cuphead/
The Pixelated Audio podcast made a show on the game's music, with the composer and the guy holding the current WR. Direct download for those who for it:
http://media.blubrry.com/pixelatedaudio ... udio92.mp3

[Durandal]

Does anyone feel it's possible to luck your way through in Cuphead? It relies on RNG for a lot of things, one of those things being the order of attacks used. Then you have some attacks (or combinations thereof) which can be considered easier than the rest of the boss' repertoire. Considering that there's nothing really preventing you in Cuphead from getting the same easy attack twice in a row AFAIK, do you feel that it's then possible to luck your way to a cheap-feeling victory?
Would you say it's an unfortunate side-effect which doesn't take away from the fact that you still need skill to execute victory consistently, or that the difficulty of all attacks in a phase should have been balanced properly so you can't get away with a victory where you knowingly only got the easy attacks?

Because I'm sure there's many other games out there which use RNG to determine the next attack, with the next one being able to be the same as the previous one. I don't know enough about Cuphead's RNG to know how exactly it determines the next attack, but I'm asking because this would seem like an universal problem in games.

[Sumez]

Usually, when programming RNG like that, you'll do something simple like reroll the choice once or twice if you get the same as the previous one, to get more spread in your random results. True randomness will typically result in a lot of repeated patterns that might actually "feel" less random to the player.

For an obvious visible example of this, compare SNES Tetris with NES Tetris (which rerolls once)

[Squire Grooktook]

Usually, when programming RNG like that, you'll do something simple like reroll the choice once or twice if you get the same as the previous one, to get more spread in your random results. True randomness will typically result in a lot of repeated patterns that might actually "feel" less random to the player.

The way I do random boss attack selection in my game is to create a list of attacks, and then shuffle them. IE

1. straight punch
2. hook to the left
3. hook to the right

Shuffle that list, and step through during the period that these attacks may be chosen. You can reshuffle and loop the list if you want to repeat. This ensures that you won't, say, get a left hook 30 times in a row or something stupid like that.

Another way I sometimes do randomness is to determine a value by using a sine wave with a random starting position, which ensures a nice even spread of results that can't really be predicted by the player.

[Sumez]

Shuffle that list, and step through during the period that these attacks may be chosen. You can reshuffle and loop the list if you want to repeat. This ensures that you won't, say, get a left hook 30 times in a row or something stupid like that.

This is another common way to do it, and if you're aiming for your game to be completely balanced for scoring or speedrunning purposes, and the chosen attacks can affect that, you might want to make sure it does something like that. And of course if the sequence is so short (ie. very short boss fights, or very long patterns) that you aren't expecting to see a lot of full cycles, and want to make sure every pattern is used.

The downside to your example however is that once two attacks have been exhausted, you know with 100% certainty what will be the next attack. That might work just fine in some examples, but I think there are definitely examples out there where you always want some kind of unpredictability to keep the player on their toes. Sticking with the Tetris example, your solution is known as a "bag randomizer". A way to shake it up could be the "two bag randomizer", ie. putting every attack pattern into the "bag" twice before shuffling it.

Another thing I notice a lot of games doing (especially older 8 or 16 bit games, etc.), to make sure every pattern is executed at least once is always starting out with the same sequence cycling through each available pattern (some times shuffled, but suprisingly rare) before reverting into a random routine. I can't think of any off hand, but I feel like almost every boss in Contra Hard Corps does it?
Kind of a lazy solution, to be honest, but very traditional.

[Durandal]

That's not really what I meant to ask, what I meant to say is whether you could consider the difficulty of the possible attacks in Cuphead's bosses consistent and whether you would consider being able to win by just getting the easy attacks a bad thing.

And another aside, would you consider the parry slap mechanic an invaluable mechanic or something just tacked on because everything has a parry mechanic nowadays?

[Squire Grooktook]

Well first off, I believe rng should not make difficulty fluctuate at all. And preventing it from doing so is one of the hardest parts of implementing rng in patterns.

That being said, I haven't had a ton of difficulty fluctuation in cuphead myself. I hear talk of possible "impossible patterns" and such, but I've never encountered anything quite like it myself.

[Sumez]

The difficulty fluctuates a lot in Daimakaimura based on the RNG, but I think the game lives and breathes through exactly that. You never know what you're getting, and some times you get a free pass. But at some point it's bound to throw something nasty your way. Especially with two loops.

[MommysBestGames]

That's not really what I meant to ask, what I meant to say is whether you could consider the difficulty of the possible attacks in Cuphead's bosses consistent and whether you would consider being able to win by just getting the easy attacks a bad thing.

I haven't noticed an issue with the "entire boss fight" going wrong. For instance, most boss fights for me, I have to see all their attacks (two or three per sub-stage) before I can beat that sub-stage. So I usually see them all regardless of the order.
Once exception for me is the casino-token stack. That thing drives me crazy and some of his attacks are much worse than others.
Most bosses though, again, I see all attacks they have (I think, unless you can name other obvious examples I'm forgetting).

And another aside, would you consider the parry slap mechanic an invaluable mechanic or something just tacked on because everything has a parry mechanic nowadays?

I personally thought it was great in Cuphead and they did a brilliant job of getting the most out of it. The monkey shines boss, the train boss, even just some of the uses in the run-n-gun levels were great.
What other games use a double-jump parry move like that, and put it to good use? Interested to hear, thanks!

[system11]

I had to clean the topic. Please don't bring ugly political / social discussions into a thread about a game.

[soprano1]

I had to clean the topic. Please don't bring ugly political / social discussions into a thread about a game.

Thank you.

[Obscura]

A note for anyone thinking of buying this on PC -- the controller support on the PC version is virtually nonexistent. Without using Steam's XBox controller default settings, you can't navigate any menus (including the shop) with the controls. With Steam's built-in defaults enabled, you can't configure your controls.

Refund incoming!

[Squire Grooktook]

I just used joy2key

[5pectre]

I had controller issues too on Steam. I couldn't control anything in the menus and didn't get button prompts in game. I think it doesn't like too many devices connected at the same time.

I had:
wireless keyboard
microsoft wireless dongle
bluetooth dongle
and an xbox 360 arcade stick.

removed the wireless and bluetooth dongle and it worked like a charm.

[Sumez]

So is it a Steam issue, or does the GOG version do the same?

[Blinge]

A note for anyone thinking of buying this on PC -- the controller support on the PC version is virtually nonexistent.

Oh man, thought those days were done, at least for high profile releases

[Durandal]

To those whom it may concern:

Hello friends,

Where has the time gone? We've been hard at work over the last couple of months squashing bugs, fixing exploits, and even doing a little bit of gameplay balance tuning. Thank you all for your patience, kindness, and support. We wouldn't be here without you.

Patch Notes:
• Fixed various freezes caused by controller disconnection/reconnection
• Fixed infinite controller rumble bug
• Fixed various freezes and soft-locks and crashes
• Improvements to saving and loading
• No longer possible to create a Mugman army.
• Fixed rapid-weapon-swap damage glitch
• Slight charge weapon damage reduction
• Charge weapon charge is now maintained during parry
• Now possible to unequip secondary weapon, Super, and Charm from equipment menu (Press "Y" to unequip)
• Mr. Chimes no longer gets stuck or goes off-screen
• King Dice’s Start Over square will now only trigger once per attempt
• Player 2 now appears in the King Dice board after being revived at the end of a mini-boss level
• Dice Palace score now properly resets when retrying the level
• Fixed improper hit boxes on the Devil's snake attack
• Fixed Devil's goat attack so it hits ducking players
• Elevator on Rugged Ridge no longer locks if Player 1 dies
• A+ grade now possible on Funfair Fever and Treetop Trouble
• No longer possible to damage bosses that are off-screen
• Fixed rare crash when parrying on Carnival Kerfuffle
• Fixed Roundabout shots not coming back on screen on select stages
• Baroness Von Bon Bon death results now properly displays progress on phase 3
• Dr. Kahl's Robot death results now properly displays progress on phase 1
• Fixed various minor collision bugs
• Various art and animation polish
• Minor sound effect bug fixes and polish
• Added spooky Mausoleum announcer
• Touch fuzzy, get a little dizzy

[Austin]

Cool. Glad to see they are polishing it up a bit.

[qmish]

Finally tried Cuphead, and...

I don't. Freaking. Like it.



*except for art direction, everything there is amazing

But yeah. I enjoyed much more DOJ or Magician Lord rather than this.

[Searchlike]

Smart of them devs to adopt the Fleischer animation style as I don't think the game would have sold as much otherwise. I'm glad it exists though, just knowing that some folks were so enamored with the visuals that they went the extra mile to purchase some 30's cartoons was well worth it. Never cared to play the game myself. In a world with Alien Soldier why would I want to play this?

[Blinge]

Oh Cuphead? Yeah sheit i forgot to post

I've since bought, played and loved it.
I don't really remember anything though, kinda blitzed through it.
There's way more bosses than stages.

but we salute the fish federation and crustacean nation

[Searchlike]

IIRC the stages were something of an afterthought as it was supposed to be a straightforward boss rush, but the gaming press couldn't fathom the idea of such a title existing.

Much indebted to the Platypus Republic for their solidarity and vampire miscellanies.

[Sumez]

I'll definitely admit I was squarely in the wanting straight-forward running and gunning stages camp. In a game inspired by Metal Slug and its ilk, it just makes sense. But obviously, I'd want competent ones, not boring filler stuff like what they made.

I only actually played the first part of the game at an event somewhere, and don't have much of an impression of the game, but it's definitely a lot better than it was shaping out to be, especially going by the old footage of the game when they first announced it.

But yeah, the run-n-gun segments can go, and so can the shmup stages, what the hell.

[Blinge]

A couple of them seemed super tough to me.
but i'm not as grizzled a veteran as some of you crusty bastards.

[jehu]

Well fellas, the DLC is out.

Gave it a play though on Normal. The challenge is stiff, but it won't take you long to get through it if you make a concentrated effort.

Two STG stages in this one. They work just fine, but this game was never going to win any awards for being a shmup masterpiece.

It is a run-n'-gun masterclass, though, and they wisely concentrated their efforts on those stages. Plenty to do on that front, including an ingenious revamping of the parry-only stages from the main game. A few new weapons/items and a new character that potentially add replay value to what was already there (including a 'cursed amulet' to make things intentionally more difficult).

The art and music retain the heights they had previously. An absolute joy to look at and listen to.

If you liked the 2017 effort, you'll really enjoy this too.

[Austin]

Sheesh, it's been five years already? I still haven't bothered to finish this game. Need to get on that soon..

[Sumez]

Now that the DLC is finally out, all there's left for me is to way for the physical release to finally drop.
From the little I've played of the game, I know I want a real copy of it, so I don't mind being patient - but damn, it's taken its time

[neorichieb1971]

Now that the DLC is finally out, all there's left for me is to way for the physical release to finally drop.
From the little I've played of the game, I know I want a real copy of it, so I don't mind being patient - but damn, it's taken its time

Came to this thread to find out if it got a physical release. Last I read once the DLC was complete it would get a physical release.

[Sumez]

Yeah, they said that back in 2019, and recent news from just a week or two ago confirm that is still on the table. An announcement should drop within the next month or two, so hopefully it won't be too far from a release date, seems like a game that could easily carry a wide retail release.

[Gamer707b]

So, I've migrated to this thread. Beat this years ago, but forgot how tough the game can be. Just got through world 2 last night and did a couple bosses on world 3. Anyone else been on this since it's physical release?