The State of Emulation topic

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Sir Ilpalazzo
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

WelshMegalodon wrote:Takeda Toshiya's PC88 emulator lets you maps whatever controller inputs you want to the emulated joystick and even has a "Joystick to Keyboard" function that lets you map keyboard keys to controller buttons without having to fuck around with Xpadder.
Looking into this, and I'm not sure what to go with from the website. One of these is the correct PC-88 emulator, right? What's the difference between the MA and SR ones?
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by WelshMegalodon »

SR and MA are different ranges of the PC-8801 series. The SR models were released in 1985, the MA models in 1987 with significantly more RAM. I've been using the PC-8801 MA emulator, but I'm afraid I haven't been able to find out whether or not the Ys games require anything specific in the way of hardware specs.

The box art seems to suggest that the game will at least run on either range.
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Sir Ilpalazzo
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Thanks, all of that worked out. The Toshiya emulator seems to suit my needs perfectly.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Udderdude »

I don't know where else to post this, so it's going here. Xbox One and Series S/X now have backwards compatibility for 76 more games.

Some stand-out titles on the new list are Beautiful Katamari, Dead or Alive 3/4/Ultimate, Gunvalkyrie, NIER, Otogi 1 and 2, Red Dead Revolver, Ridge Racer 6, TimeSplitters 2, TimeSplitters - Future Perfect, and Vandal Hearts - Flames of Judgment. You can buy most of them digitally if you don't feel like scrounging around on fleabay or don't already own physical copies of them.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/15/227 ... -new-games
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Despatche
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Despatche »

DOA3, Gunvalkyrie, and RR6 are huge. Might have to hunt down a copy of DOA3.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by evil_ash_xero »

What would be the best version of MAME to play Ibara on? I haven't kept up with emulation at all.
Low latency, all that stuff.
Also, any emulator that can play the Raizing games with 1 frame?
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by WelshMegalodon »

CV1000 games are still pretty bad in MAME, I'm afraid. To my understanding, it's impossible to get them to run as they should without implementing memory waitstates and other things that require a great deal of research to get right and will probably incur a huge performance penalty when taken into account.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Despatche »

CV1000 games are perfectly playable. The amount of people who ever actually get to interact with slowdown "properly" can be counted on one hand.

We're going the wrong way; we should be trying to remove slowdown completely, not put it back. When all this madness is supposed to end, it will not truly end unless this is possible.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

This contrarian attitude of yours is cute and I don't want you to stop it, but this thread's titled The State of Emulation. Capitalized, even. evil_ash_xero mentions emulation as well.


@ evil_ash_xero: This thread may let you find a "good enough" configuration for Mame in regards to slowdowns, or better yet, tell you how to improve it if you know the game well enough. Of course, Groovymame+CRT is always preferred if you're after low input latency, and a proper Port Audio configuration shouldn't be discarded for low audio lag.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Udderdude »

Kung-Fu Master 2, the unreleased arcade prototype, has been dumped and added to MAME. Not playable yet, though. https://youtu.be/Efr9EQkbCSQ?t=85

(No relation to Spartan X 2 on the Famicom!)
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Ed Oscuro »

WISE from the grave! Whoops, wrong intro - here's NES emulation in Windows 11 using current standalones:

Mesen: Won't let me bind the "Z" key on my keyboard - a very standard thrift store Dell with QWERTY layout. Made sure to select the second set of binds, which should have helped things, but it still has its own thoughts about what a keypress means. Configuration file is scary, not very readable, and seems to use key scancodes which I haven't memorized.
PuNES: Lag monitor feature is interesting but I don't understand the purpose of counting frames that can't be controlled. Also, randomly freezing - may be related to some files I'm dumping to the drive the ROMs are at. Weird (to me) pixel aspect ratio options of 1:1 and 5:4 but no 4:3...
Nestopia UE: Crashed after I saved a savestate from fullscreen. Radio buttons in Sound menu's "Memory Pool" option seem broken.

Overall, an arghtastic experience.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by WelshMegalodon »

I've been using the 8:7 PAR option in puNES with a CRT shader and the NTSC filter enabled. Things generally look correct to me, but I'm hardly an expert, so I'll gladly let the good folks of SHMUPS judge for themselves:
Spoiler
Image

Image

Image
As for random freezes, my ROMs are in C:\puNES\roms, and I haven't had any issues.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Things generally look OK to me too and I haven't done any pixel peeping, but promoting individual pixel ratios independent of the target display resolution can be misleading or unintuitive, depending on what a player knows and expects.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Blinge »

Well Kega Fusion can't be the golden boy for Genesis/Mega Drive anymore can it?
I can't even fullscreen it in windows 10. apparently it just don't.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by BryanM »

Compatibility drift is always the #2 or #3 nightmare that comes to mind whenever some Microsoft stooge comes along to gloat about being forced to install a newer OS product. You can't build something that endures on a foundation made of quicksand. Can't imagine those people ever used software older than three days. (Maybe that's why the constant browser updates thing became such a thing. Used to be we'd have years between version releases, not minutes. Fetishist sickos!)

Thank god for OpenGL and Vulkan. Microsoft just loves OS locking software API's, despite it requiring more work on their part, it makes the big bucks.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by WelshMegalodon »

Blinge wrote:Well Kega Fusion can't be the golden boy for Genesis/Mega Drive anymore can it?
I can't even fullscreen it in windows 10. apparently it just don't.
Genesis emulation is kind of in a weird place right now. Genesis Plus GX is pretty good and probably the most widely used these days by virtue of being in RetroArch, but RetroArch is horrible as a program. Bizhawk has its own version of GPGX, but that version doesn't use Nuked-OPN2 for cycle-accurate YM2612 emulation.

BlastEm is currently the most accurate, but its UI has been pretty buggy and the last stable release is severely out of date, so you need to get one of the nightly builds that may or may not be broken (the dev claimed this himself). It's still my emulator of choice, but I run it through the command line to get around the buggy UI and do all the configuring in a text file, so that is something to keep in mind.

MAME recently revamped a bunch of their FM chips, so its YM2612 emulation is supposedly on par with what's in BlastEm and Nuked-OPN2, but you have to set the volume levels manually, and MAME isn't particularly great for Genesis emulation otherwise.

There's also Exodus, which aims to be higan for the Genesis, but last time I checked it wasn't anywhere near complete enough for general use.

GPGX via Bizhawk probably does the best job of balancing accuracy with accessibility since Bizhawk has a sane WIMP UI, unlike that other program.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Mortificator »

I hate to be the guy doing unhelpful "works for me" posts, but I'm on Windows 10 and Kega Fusion fullscreen Works For Me (TM). Here's my config file on the off-chance it'll Work For You (patent pending)

Doesn't surprise me that there are better emus out there, though without compelling features I haven't felt the need to transition yet.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by BryanM »

WelshMegalodon wrote:but RetroArch is horrible as a program.
I'm resigned that setting stuff up will always be a chore (we all have our own preferences), but was a bit shocked at it being a bit of a pain just to select a game and run it in this thing. It's like the GUI is in some kind of perpetual bastardized setup/use mode purgatory. It feels like a step back from even the classic outdated dropdown menubar design.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Fusion is "good enough" but I don't like using it now. It isn't the most accurate and is generally obsolete in terms of features, but I think it is still the best choice specifically for the Pico and 32x which other emulators still don't seem to support. For doing something like black frame insertion with exclusive fullscreen, or low latency audio, you probably need to use more up-to-date software. I haven't seen any real negative in moving to Retroarch's Gens Plus GX, which is *at least* its equal in the speed department and clearly superior in many others. If you don't want to use RA, there are other decent options in BlastEm! and Exodus.

@ BryanM: I will fault Microsoft for a lot of boneheaded decisions (many of which are generally outside the scope of this thread ;) ), but I am not sure I can fault them for not making very old programs take advantage of new graphics APIs like Vulkan! The main pain points in Windows API breakage seem to me to be in the shift around the XP era and the change from DirectDraw to DirectX. All told, Windows 10 has good software compatibility (and Microsoft's many-billions-of-dollars market share depends on it). I would really like to see more common latency testing pitting Windows 11 (and 10) against a good Linux distro. Hopefully Steam Deck isn't just a flash in the pan and brings some real Linux energy to the market.

Some recent Retroarch highlights:

Retroarch just pushed out audio latency improvements for a number of cores. They seem real to me; I've got 32ms audio buffer running in a PS1 game and I don't think I've had a hint of crackling. Before, I felt that 48ms was the realistic limit - although I haven't tried this in a more difficult core like, say, FlyCast, so this may just be a lack of testing on my part. Still, two frames in the audio buffer with no crackling is pretty neat.

Retroarch supports the famous PSP *and* PS3 variants of PS1 firmware - that is, modified variants of the PS1 BIOS for the backwards compatibility on those systems. To make it work, you must specifically load up a title, and then go into the core's Options - Emulation Hacks - select "Override BIOS" and select one of the BIOSes. As usual, the feature is *there,* but it's hidden in the menus.

Same CDi is a new core that's basically MAME .239 with a quite sane frontend. No more trying to wrap your head around dummy files or dealing with MAME's CRC checks. It just works. Of course, it doesn't support the Digital Video Cartridge, but you can play Burn Cycle. Still have to look at mouse support which is important for a number of CD-i titles.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Ed Oscuro »

BryanM wrote:
WelshMegalodon wrote:but RetroArch is horrible as a program.
I'm resigned that setting stuff up will always be a chore (we all have our own preferences), but was a bit shocked at it being a bit of a pain just to select a game and run it in this thing. It's like the GUI is in some kind of perpetual bastardized setup/use mode purgatory. It feels like a step back from even the classic outdated dropdown menubar design.
I guess the long and the short of it is that this is the price of RA's customization and features. Even having gotten used to the RetroArch "workflow," it's still not exactly one-click to get back to a particular system/game combination using the History menu. Some good options are unfortunately hidden: Game Focus is a really good feature for personal computer emulation - labeled in a way that much if not most of RA's userbase has no idea it exists or even what it does when they find it in the options.

There's also a bit of an oversight in its menu organization: Some of the global settings like run-ahead or the audio buffering settings can be tweaked to work well on a particular system and game combo, but then they won't be optimal for another. Same with Black Frame Insertion, which really seems like it is more sensible as a per-core thing. Even though these are global settings, somehow there still are far more menus than it seems there should be.

But for all that it has lots of neat features. The Cheats menu isn't as powerful or convenient as Cheat Engine for playing with variables, but it's more convenient for just loading up game cheats from the extensive database. Still no idea how to use old GameShark codes on it, though.

What I would really like to see is more Retroarch-specific improvements making their way upstream to the original standalone emulators. For example, FlyCast's standalone core is almost as powerful as RetroArch and has sometimes been more compatible than the RA core version - and it soon adopted a Vulkan renderer as well.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by WelshMegalodon »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Same CDi is a new core that's basically MAME .239 with a quite sane frontend. No more trying to wrap your head around dummy files or dealing with MAME's CRC checks. It just works. Of course, it doesn't support the Digital Video Cartridge, but you can play Burn Cycle. Still have to look at mouse support which is important for a number of CD-i titles.
There's something scummy about the libretro devs, which have traditionally encouraged usage of heavily outdated MAME cores and generally mishandled support for non-arcade software in their newer ones, taking improved CD-i emulation from a modern release and repackaging it as a libretro core. But whatever, it's not like I can really do anything about that.

At least they're up front about where their new core came from.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Ed Oscuro »

There's no question that RA's devs have made a lot of enemies and unforced errors. But what scares me more than devs fundraising off another dev's work is an 'upstream' dev trying to limit use of their open source contributions. I don't want to belittle any dev's right to proper respect and credit, but I feel that trying to dictate how said code is used is against the spirit of open source even more than taking the code and running. Downstream taking code and not really respecting the authors is an old, old problem and not at all unique to emulation. Of course, MAME team have not used the nuclear option and restricted use of their name trademark. Then again, doing that would be quite alarming. And of course, this is not to say that RA hasn't been accused of actually violating licenses in the past - although this may have come down to something of a Moral Panic on the side of "free software advocates," see: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/issue/38360

For me Same CDi fills a need. Right now it's the easiest and sanest way to play many CD-i titles (outside of putting more hours on my system, at least). I don't have to go far to find a use case that doesn't make sense - like systems with Emotion Engine or Dolphin chips inside.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by WelshMegalodon »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Of course, MAME team have not used the nuclear option and restricted use of their name trademark. Then again, doing that would be quite alarming.
Not that I really have any horses in the race, but I looked at the legalese on MAMEdev's site after reading your comment again, and as it turns out, the MAME team has in fact restricted use of the name "MAME", albeit in a rather permissive manner:
MAME® is a registered trademark of Gregory Ember. The "MAME" name and MAME logo may not be used without first obtaining permission of the trademark holder.
Q. Can I use the term "MAME" in the name of my software?
A. Generally, no, especially if it is something that is sold. However, if you are producing a free MAME-related piece of software, it is common that permission is granted. Send a query to double- check first, please.
What's more, the RetroArch devs appear to have fallen afoul of even this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comm ... s/gwbq34s/
We've asked for years for RA to rename the old cores as something other than "MAME". No go.
The intent of the license is that you don't just add a suffix to "MAME"; the example "MAME Plus" being wrong was exactly intended to stop people from names like "MAME 2003 Plus".
But you're right in saying that using open-source code without regard for the author's wishes is hardly an uncommon problem.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Saying "please don't use our trademark because people will blame us for your software's problems" is a very sensible request from MAME. RA should rename cores on request even if there isn't a trademark in place; it's just courteous.

I'm being careful when I say that MAME has a trademark and their wishes regarding its use are known - unless they enforce restrictions on its use against RA, it is effectively a suggestion and not a restriction. Unfortunately, there is a precedent for people losing trademarks when they are not vigilantly enforced - which I hope is irrelevant to this discussion. However, restricting brand name recognition to certain downstream projects seems like also it's not the sort of thing normal open source software projects do. MAME seem to be sensitive of the ramifications, and I credit them for not just stomping all over RA.

At the same time, and not specific to MAME, there's a lot of complaints out there that RA doesn't give upstream emulator developers *enough* credit. Branding and credit seem sometimes to be a trojan horse for arguments against RA using open source code in ways not deemed "ideal" by the original open source developers, even if their permissive licensing terms don't allow them to take action against RA. I'm not optimistic that changing the branding and strict compliance with all license terms will end arguments against RA's "wrong" uses of open source code. Some developers have even considered pulling out of open source projects in protest and that would surely be a net negative for the community.

I think R.Belmont suggested the model could be flipped upside down to put RA "upstream" of some emulators, but that's what Libretro already aims for. Normal FOSS projects are good about keeping their domains separate enough that they don't step on each others' toes and just send patches in to each other. When things get really bad, fork it and keep on going. RA is in the position of wanting to fill the needs of a lot of non-technical users with lots of tweaks and even obsolete software packages to cater to every user. I'm not mad about that. I see the downsides, but ultimately open source code is supposed to be about choice and freedom.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Udderdude »

I don't get what's so difficult about CD-i in MAME. I use MAMEUI, and it loads my totally legal bin/cue rips (that just happen to match redump's) just fine.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by WelshMegalodon »

Ten bucks says the people complaining about it are using either some outdated fork of MAME or the libretro core and trying to pair it with badly dumped ROMs and disc images from God knows where. It really doesn't help that many tutorials out there make it sound like MAME is impossible to use without a full set, a rom manager, a frontend, thousands of videos and other assets, JoyToKey, Xpadder, Godzilla, John F. Kennedy, quantum physics, and a fuckton of other shit.

To be fair, MAME isn't always clear about which ROMs you need to run a game if you don't know how to look it up via command line. And there are an alarming number of people that just... don't Google things.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Maybe MAME flawlessly handles the random rare proto dumps for must-play CD-i titles like "Nylon City" and "Voyeur II" - I dunno. Unfortunately some of these dumps aren't made using the approved methods and yet it still seems valuable to support them. I do see a lot of variant titles listed, which is good. I'm grateful for MAME's development of the CHD format here. Still, I flinch when I see MAME suggesting lists of software, if for no other reason than the potential loss of liberty in requiring hash checks. On the flip side, a system that *doesn't* hash check helps keep bad dumps in circulation, which is only a 'good idea' for homebrew or rare ROM hacks that rely on them (to the best of my knowledge, none of this really has much relevance for the CD-i except in the corner case of homemade images of rare historical prototypes). MAME's convenient in showing all the titles by default and just letting you type-search the name of a particular game - a lot of people are sleeping on that built-in UI which does 95% of what I'd like it to do. What's missing are some cutting-edge configuration options.

In terms of things that RA is doing which I don't see elsewhere - the Stats overlay proved helpful and powerful recently. Finding a frame time breakdown is already rare, but it goes into greater detail than this. Yet without appropriate hardware I can never be completely certain if tweaking RA is actually "better" than using standalones because I don't have hard data to compare. nVidia Reflex doesn't seem to apply; FCAT may be overkill for this application. If standalones would get finer control and support more real-time stats analysis that would definitely chip away at the value of RA. Same with the cheats engine. Most of the rest I can do without.

Sometimes there are clouds in Retroarch's silver linings. For example - they heavily advertised the development of N64 ParaLLEl. It's very good, but slow - and slower than running the Mupen64Plus-Next with ParaLLEl RDP on. It appears that the ParaLLEl core may be basically deprecated in favor of Mupen64Plus-next - sometime I will try and ask for some insight into that. Of course there's also the 'newbie trap' of ParaLLEl N64 not actually defaulting to using the ParaLLEl renderer, so people get very confused when they can't successfully photograph a certain shine sprite in Donkey Kong 64 when using this new "accurate" core!
WelshMegalodon wrote:To be fair, MAME isn't always clear about which ROMs you need to run a game if you don't know how to look it up via command line. And there are an alarming number of people that just... don't Google things.
I think the messaging about MAME and what it does has been consistent enough for years that people should luck on to helpful information. RA, for its part, does have info in a fairly easy-to-find wiki about what it requires for ROM images, but then people are just downloading them piecemeal and there's no built-in validation. BIOS files reside in RA's \system\ folder which is messy with lots of BIOS files just seemingly randomly tossed into the base along with various subfolders. God knows I hate the MAME naming scheme but once a file is named...that's it. RA is trying to accommodate human-readable naming schemes for BIOS files made by various preservation groups...and also random ones like PSXONPSP660.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by copy-paster »

Kega Fusion although it's over decades year old, still the only MD emulator I'm most comfortable of. MD port of Darius (2019 release/Extra) have all music with corretch pitch, something not the same for other MD emus. They got the wrong pitch in CHAOS track and it's earrape inducing. Sadly it works like shit if you use modern systems but graphics wrapper like dgVoodoo2 will fix them.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by Udderdude »

I never needed DGVoodoo 2 to make Kega Fusion work, and I'm on Windows 10.

Anyway, some actual emulation news some might have missed: Marble Madness 2 (prototype) and Megumi Rescue (unreleased) were added to MAME.
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Re: The State of Emulation topic

Post by null1024 »

For every one of the Windows 10 machines I've used, Fusion requires "Use Alternate Timing" to be enabled. Without it, you get terrible frame pacing.
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