New Strider game...

[CMoon]

Well what I mean about Strider 1 and no challenge is that if you are seasoned with it, you can beat it on 1 life about 85% of the time or more. The real challenge isn't the last fight but in the second anti-grav room where there is a small chance you will get dropped to your death.

My point with Strider 1 as a short game with little randomness, if you learn its patterns you will eventually find there isn't any real challenge to beating it.

Strider 2 is quite different. Its ranking system is almost more like Devil May Cry or something, and yes, that last boss is absurd. Truth is I'm not sure I've ever 1cc'd it. The final level itself is pretty cruel and the last boss is murder. The rank system ensures that if you are playing well early on you will be punished by the later half of the game.

Seriously, I am enormously reverent toward Strider 1. It is one of my favorite games of all time, but Strider 2 has much better gameplay and challenge. What Strider 1 has is an amazing cinematic scope to it...and there are times Strider 2 does that as well...sometimes actually better. I just don't really understand liking one and not the other. They are both fantastic games.

[boagman]

Well what I mean about Strider 1 and no challenge is that if you are seasoned with it, you can beat it on 1 life about 85% of the time or more. The real challenge isn't the last fight but in the second anti-grav room where there is a small chance you will get dropped to your death.

My point with Strider 1 as a short game with little randomness, if you learn its patterns you will eventually find there isn't any real challenge to beating it.

Strider 2 is quite different. Its ranking system is almost more like Devil May Cry or something, and yes, that last boss is absurd. Truth is I'm not sure I've ever 1cc'd it. The final level itself is pretty cruel and the last boss is murder. The rank system ensures that if you are playing well early on you will be punished by the later half of the game.

Seriously, I am enormously reverent toward Strider 1. It is one of my favorite games of all time, but Strider 2 has much better gameplay and challenge. What Strider 1 has is an amazing cinematic scope to it...and there are times Strider 2 does that as well...sometimes actually better. I just don't really understand liking one and not the other. They are both fantastic games.

It's not that I dislike Strider 2, but that to me, it certainly doesn't come together as well as the original (and yes: a part of that is the brokenness of the lots-o'-loadin'-times). It's fine for what it is, and I don't particularly mind it carrying the Strider moniker. It's just sort of there, though. There are several good things about it, but it never ever reaches the stratosphere that the original does.

Actually, I'd like you to compare/contrast something with me: compare the 1ccishness of Strider to MERCS, with emphasis on the "little randomness" part of things. I know that they're very disparate games, but I'm trying to see if you can see something that I notice about both games in the terms that you're speaking of.

[GaijinPunch]

Nope, disagree. The antigravity level, coupled with the Grand Master boss fight render your point incorrect.

Now, I'm not saying that Strider is the toughest game ever to get through, but those two things alone *definitely* present challenge to even a seasoned player. Just because it *can* be done doesn't mean that there's no challenge in doing so. That's a fallacy.

Either of those is rather easy -- especially considering one is the last boss. I think I put a few days of work in this and did a 1-miss. Thought about going for the no-miss, but opted out in the end.

[Skykid]

There are several good things about it, but it never ever reaches the stratosphere that the original does

I assure you it does. The boss fights are immense, and require full use of Strider's taut and elaborate move scheme. When I first broke S2 in, I imagined it was very much what the first game wanted to be, but didn't have the technical ability to be. I agree with Ed's comments on the controls - I felt they lacked precision from day one, hence I always struggled to reconcile the boundless praise. I can't see the stratospheric highs you maintain it achieves. Highs, yes, but with a clear ceiling.

Don't get me wrong, it's graphically exciting, action packed, and the stage layouts are superb. But I'm not sure it's on par with Makaimura, and I think S2 goes to all the places it doesn't. I'm also not an advocate of 3D anything really, but I just can't see the graphical criticism of S2: I genuinely think it's a visual treat through and through.

Also, Strider is a bit if a cake walk compared to S2. Not really a criticism, just an observation - but one I think affects the opinions of many people.

[BIL]

It's all perfectly doable without taking any damage if you time it right.

Absolutely - it's trivial once you know the game. The issue I have is the blind guesswork required to cleanly approach and dispatch the gunner, if you lack detailed prior knowledge of the situation.

[trap15]

require full use of Strider's taut and elaborate move scheme

Or you can just run through the boss (since you don't get hit when touching enemies) and attack from behind since they're all too dumb to do anything about it.

[Skykid]

require full use of Strider's taut and elaborate move scheme

Or you can just run through the boss (since you don't get hit when touching enemies) and attack from behind since they're all too dumb to do anything about it.

I honestly don't know what game you've been playing. Are you talking about the first boss 10 seconds into the first level?

There are a ton of bosses that require strategy and sharp reflexes to dispatch without losing a precious health block, whether timed sliding or pinning them with the aerial rave. You can't blindly button mash any boss after stage one.

[trap15]

I've been able to do that same trick for almost all of the bosses, not just the first one.

[Skykid]

I've been able to do that same trick for almost all of the bosses, not just the first one.

How?!

It's not possible to camp behind bosses and slash without moving to avoid attacks. Stage 2's dude on a horse needs dodging by slide, the skeleton knight in the ascending hallway fires skulls across the floor that have to be avoided, the knight on the parapet will bring an axe down on you no matter where you sit and there are guards firing projectiles in from the background; and the stage's LB requires constant dashing to avoid the hydra attacks, and jumping aerial raves to attack the boss when he's static.

And that's just stage 2. So basically I don't know what you're talking about. You're insinuating it's easy?

Honestly, I think S2 is one game that suffers so acutely if credit fed, it basically ruins the game. Worse than Final Fight. You can't credit feed the game: it needs to be played on a single credit and learned accordingly, or else it's a worthless exercise in hitting continue every 2-3 minutes, especially from stage 3 onward.

[jepjepjep]

It's all perfectly doable without taking any damage if you time it right.

Absolutely - it's trivial once you know the game. The issue I have is the blind guesswork required to cleanly approach and dispatch the gunner, if you lack detailed prior knowledge of the situation.

Yeah, it is pretty hard to guess what works and what doesn't there if you don't know beforehand.

With all this Strider 2 talk, you guys have convinced me to give it another go!

[CMoon]

Actually, I'd like you to compare/contrast something with me: compare the 1ccishness of Strider to MERCS, with emphasis on the "little randomness" part of things. I know that they're very disparate games, but I'm trying to see if you can see something that I notice about both games in the terms that you're speaking of.

I don't mean to blow you off but I never put much of any time into mercs. The style of the game never appealed to me.

Or you can just run through the boss (since you don't get hit when touching enemies) and attack from behind since they're all too dumb to do anything about it.

Yeah, this works early on, but starts breaking down later. Also, I'm sure you noticed that you can take on the levels in almost any order (and skip levels.) Levels start increasing in difficulty dramatically as you progress in the game (I don't know if using continues resets this as I always aimed for a 1cc), and it is interesting to see the 'easy level 1' actually become a rather hard level when done as level 3.

Yes, like Mars Matrix, you don't get hit when you touch enemies. That's why Mars Matrix is such an easy game

[Skykid]

Yes, like Mars Matrix, you don't get hit when you touch enemies. That's why Mars Matrix is such an easy game

Ha ha!

With all this Strider 2 talk, you guys have convinced me to give it another go!

Play it for a clear and let us know your findings.

Yeah, this works early on, but starts breaking down later.

Very early on. As I said, clear stage one with a good rank and stage 2 will put you to work straight away. Part of the enjoyment in S2 is being able to slash as fast as your finger will allow, and learning to fell bosses in super time adds to the ninja flavour and sense of reward. But the opportunity to just sit behind bosses and destroy them with no retaliation dwindles quickly, regardless of how quickly you can take them out.

[CMoon]

Skykid> I haven't actually played Strider 2 in years, so you can answer this question. Is the difficulty of subsequent levels made harder by how well you do in previous levels, or does difficulty just go up in a static fashion based on how far you are in the game?

[Skykid]

I'm almost 100% sure it ranks up regardless of the order you tackle it. So if you do stage 1 third, it's all round tougher.

[trap15]

Yes, like Mars Matrix, you don't get hit when you touch enemies. That's why Mars Matrix is such an easy game

But in Mars Matrix, the enemies can hit behind them

[CMoon]

I'm almost 100% sure it ranks up regardless of the order you tackle it. So if you do stage 1 third, it's all round tougher.

I meant, does your performance in previous levels cause subsequent levels to be even harder than otherwise, or is it purely 'you are playing your third stage (even if its stage 1) so it is going to be THIS hard!' ???

[Skykid]

I'm almost 100% sure it ranks up regardless of the order you tackle it. So if you do stage 1 third, it's all round tougher.

I meant, does your performance in previous levels cause subsequent levels to be even harder than otherwise, or is it purely 'you are playing your third stage (even if its stage 1) so it is going to be THIS hard!' ???

Ah gotcha, you mean if you get two S ranks is the game going to start busting your balls?

You know, without going back to it I wouldn't like to say for sure. Perhaps BIL knows, I think he even 1cc'd it?

[BIL]

I have a feeling it's static rank increase by level order, but it's been ages since I played Strider 2 very seriously. I don't think I'd have known to look for performance-specific rank back then. I've cleared it but only with pretty crappy ranks, so I'm not sure how the last few stages might vary if you manage to gold star the whole thing (there's an enormous ranking difference between merely surviving and destroying this game). It's something I plan to return to for sure.

[BulletMagnet]

An interview which might interest some of you.

[jepjepjep]

Thanks for the link. It's a little reassuring that the Osaka team has some input in the project, but I wish they would just have the Osaka team do the project.

lol at the comments section:

Seriously, they need to hire better artists because the art-style of Strider is awfully generic and ugly as hell.

Looks at Strider's salaryman shoes! http://storage.siliconera.com/wordpress ... pgcopy.jpg

the salaryman shoes.

[Ed Oscuro]

Not reassuring at all:

I can tell you that they are the best developers in the world, but if you don’t like what they make it, then there’s no point.

AS: We have a dynamic camera system. It actually zooms in and out depending on the best approach for any different area. Sometimes it’s scripted sometimes its procedural. Basically, how do we make Strider look badass and how do we make sure you have enough viewpoint of what’s going around you. One of the advantages of going with a 2.5D view opposed to a sprite based system is to have that camera.

Haha, has he even seen the gameplay videos? Sprites didn't hold back Strider 2 from zooming, either...maybe idiots are conditioned to think "omg this pixel zooming is nasty" but the reality is that 3D is cheaper to do animation and other modern engine stuff for. Not necessarily worse, of course, as Ultimate GnG proved.

If you go back to the gameplay video, the very first 30 seconds or so is a homage to Strider 1.

Hey guys, remember the good old days when Strider ran along a flat surface for 30 seconds and tanked tons of damage without slowing down?

[trap15]

What Ed said :/ Really disappointing...

[BIL]

Nice, the old "they're huge fans!" chestnut. As far as rehashed yet comically misguided farmouts go, it seems this game will be right up there with DH's Silent Hill Homecoming. I bet Tiertex were huge fans of the original Strider, too.

[stryc9]

I bet Tiertex were huge fans of the original Strider, too.

At least it looks better (far better) than Joint Strike and that terrible Commando remake.

[BIL]

This make me ROR:

Capcom Fiscal Reports for 2012!

[trap15]

Laffo

[Obiwanshinobi]

"Decline in quality due to excessive outsourcing"? Are they going to make excuses now that they would have made those games better internally? If that's the case, why didn't they do so?
Real problem seems to be that Japanese developers are not competitive on home platforms more demanding than Wii U, thus outsourcing appears to be necessary if you want to, you know, sell your wares. Outsource wisely then. The way you eat the humble pie does make a difference. Not all humility is bad for business.

[BIL]

Outsource wisely then.

No shit! More jobs for Hideki "Devil May Cry" Kamiya, and less for Tamzin "Heavenly Sword" McFuckFace or whoever it was they farmed the last Devil May Cry out to, pls.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I believe the makers of MK: Shaolin Monks or The Red Star could developed pretty sellable Final Fight or Strider (if not DMC) reboots without trying too hard.
What was the last Power Stone 2-like game, War of the Monsters? I guess the makers work for Sony, but who knows? Some Capcom All Stars Arena party fighter in this vein could be safely outsourced. Gun/Cannon Spike was after all.

[BIL]

There's nothing wrong with outsourcing in principle. Problem is, Ninja Theory aren't Psikyo, or Treasure, or Platinum or even Sumo Digital. Double Helix certainly haven't distinguished themselves on their past farmouts, either.

I don't care about the new Strider any more than I did DmC - it's all delicious trainwreck gravy to me. But I would be less dismissive if WayForward were handling it. It may not have been the most original or inspired game, but they at least demonstrated a fundamental grasp of classic Japanese sidescrolling action with Contra 4, much moreso than is apparent in these videos.