New Strider game...

[Rob]

off screen enemies shooting at you

Keeps getting mentioned, so think I might be losing it. Same game?

[BIL]

^

That bit is *brutal.* Surprise, asshole! Remember me from stage 1?! Minigun in your face! *BOOMF*

Faithfully ported to the MD too!

I don't care about the new game either way. Double Helix can fuck off and die of weinerhole tetanus, though. I still want my cash back for Silent Hill: The Shitty Movie: The Even Shittier Game.

[Skykid]

Am I the only one who thinks Strider 2 is not a very good game?

It's just you.

[trap15]

What was up with that NES port of Strider?

It wasn't a port. Strider was a franchise, and they developed an NES game, an arcade game, and a manga series all mostly independently. There were some base concepts shared around, but not all that much.

Am I the only one who thinks Strider 2 is not a very good game?

I very much agree. I often seem like the only one who thinks that too

[boagman]

Am I the only one who thinks Strider 2 is not a very good game?

It's just you.

I didn't think it was any great shakes, but neither did I think it was bad, either. It just sort of was there, and it kind of functioned, but it wasn't anywhere on par with the original. Still, that being said, Strider 2 for the Playstation was leaps and bounds ahead of what this thing looks to be.

Strider *is* arcadey goodness. This, whatever-it-is, is categorically *not*. It's as if Capcom's doing a sequel to M.E.R.C.S., with every weapon or powerup being a cut-scene, and with horrible (and completely absent beforehand) voices and boss people. They need to get back to the basics with it, I'm afraid. They haven't just overshot...the gun backfired in their hand.

[Skykid]

Strider 2 > Strider.

That is all.

[boagman]

Strider 2 > Strider.

That is all.

Put *down* the crack pipe, son. There are people who care about you.

[Skykid]

Strider 2 > Strider.

That is all.

Put *down* the crack pipe, son. There are people who care about you.

Not on crack. I maintain original Strider is overrated.

I don't understand why you put asterisks around 'down'.

Further reading:

Http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... +2#p908919

Beware all the crack smoke, it's thick in there. Lotta people smoking the same pipe.

[shmuppyLove]

Strider 2 > Strider.

That is all.

So true. A great and cheap PCB.

[Ed Oscuro]

off screen enemies shooting at you

Keeps getting mentioned, so think I might be losing it. Same game?

If you don't have area awareness during that jumping segment then I feel real bad for you.

In this new game the player is constantly rushing forward through that first part of the game and there doesn't look like much time to react to anything, nor any real incentive to do so.

[BIL]

That bit actually is a genuine, if very isolated cheap shot. The only information you get about that unseen gunner is his extremely fast nonstop bullet stream flying in from the upper-right, blocking your path (best route scenario, he could also just blast you from directly overhead). Even if you correctly somersault forward, apparently committed to landing on the bullets, you still won't know what is shooting at you, where it is, or if you can kill it before landing on its fire. It's a total shot in the dark. Would've worked better if, say, the gunner appeared suddenly from behind cover and let rip a split-second later, forcing the player to react quickly and logically instead of just taking a leap of faith.

[jepjepjep]

In this new game the player is constantly rushing forward through that first part of the game and there doesn't look like much time to react to anything, nor any real incentive to do so.

Yeah, that's why I think the new game looks boring. Strider knocks you back when you take a hit so you can't just run blindly absorbing bullets until you're close enough to kill him. You have to approach that section with a strategy.

[Mischief Maker]

-When capcom says "most of the Strider team is working on design with Double Helix doing the grunt work" they really mean "We just say the original team is involved to avoid alienating the fans (and/or trick them into buying the game)"

It worked for DmC:

http://youtu.be/cnQO-3JTqso

I'm such a crybaby for spitting out shit sandwiches instead of savoring the tasty condiments slathered over the shit.

[system11]

Am I the only one who thinks Strider 2 is not a very good game? There's no cogent level design, it's just snippets of stages, like something Psikyo would do. The music is absolutely bland, and... where the fuck are the voices? Seriously, if they had reused the audio from Tiertex's Strider II, it would have been a major improvement.

All of this is true, it's not just you. Strider 2 was a lazy haphazard mess with no character.

[Skykid]

^ It's like you guys don't know anything about games all of a sudden.

I can give you the benefit of the doubt that you just wrote it off too quickly. Try going for a 1cc and see how it you fare. Game is tighter than a nun's chastity belt.

[Rob]

Real nuns don't need chastity belts. Strider 2 - excellent controls, but levels too fragmented and boring, bosses too frequent and boring. Also ugly.

[Skykid]

Real nuns don't need chastity belts. Strider 2 - excellent controls, but levels too fragmented and boring, bosses too frequent and boring. Also ugly.

Also wrong.

[trap15]

Rob is never wrong.

[system11]

Strider 2 lasted in my PCB collection for only a month. It's just too many bite-sized pieces and nothing to really get your teeth into.

[Ed Oscuro]

That bit actually is a genuine, if very isolated cheap shot. The only information you get about that unseen gunner is his extremely fast nonstop bullet stream flying in from the upper-right, blocking your path (best route scenario, he could also just blast you from directly overhead). Even if you correctly somersault forward, apparently committed to landing on the bullets, you still won't know what is shooting at you, where it is, or if you can kill it before landing on its fire. It's a total shot in the dark. Would've worked better if, say, the gunner appeared suddenly from behind cover and let rip a split-second later, forcing the player to react quickly and logically instead of just taking a leap of faith.

So Double Helix has learned that the best route is to take this and apply it to the whole game, huh?

Maybe I'm off here, but I thought the gunner was on a different plane than you to start. Dealing with shots all over the place and coming in from any direction should put players on their toes, and I also think that shots coming from above and below are easier to react to if they only intersect the plane you're on in one spot. In this latest game it's all straight ahead, all the time, with nowhere to flee much of the time, but just timing jumps.

For me one of the major differences - at least between the arcade versions, I know Sega changed up the Mega Drive ports - is the relative ease of movement in Strider 2 compared to the original, which is filled with all kinds of odd traps to knock you down or trap and squish you. Even some things which should be really straightforward aren't - like the crossing staircases right before the Ouroboros in the first stage. Totally un-intuitive how you move forward there.

To be brutally honest I hate the original game and think the movement renders it borderline unplayable. (Also there's a spot right in the first stage where you have to jump up a couple thin platforms with a couple guys patrolling above - they will happily shoot you down from above, too.)

[trap15]

Osman > Strider > Strider 2 >= Run Saber > This abomination

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, I'm with you that Osman is the best of these, and Run Saber is kind of boring (do like the Tong City stage, but hate the jungle one).

Strider 2 being boring is, I guess, a matter of taste - I think it's challenging enough for me, at least as far as I've played it still manages to knock me down, and some of the later stages are pretty nice. Comparing it to Strider's superb areas does show that it's considerably more simplistic in stage design for many areas, though. I would like Strider 1 a lot better with better movement.

[BIL]

Maybe I'm off here, but I thought the gunner was on a different plane than you to start.

Nope - there's just the one plane in the original Strider. You might be thinking of the second game where occasionally you'll have projectiles coming in from the background. Gunner dude is blasting right at you from frame 1.

It's not even a matter of getting hit suddenly, though - the shots will actually stop short of hitting Hiryuu (if you're approaching from the spot in Rob's screencap, at least; you can also take the lowest path and potentially not encounter him at all, or get shot for poking your head up halfway through, but it's all blind either way). The problem I have is, at the point the bullets hit the ground, you're flying totally blind. The solution (throw yourself towards the gunfire's path, causing the still-unseen Gunner to adjust his aim, miss and get sliced) is a snap, and also completely illogical. It's just crummy game design. In the game's defense this is literally the only example of this, which is why it sticks out like the aforementioned tetanus-stricken weiner Double Helix can fuck off and die of.

I love Strider 2's character controls, as you can see from my shameful crackpipe-addled past in that thread Skykid linked, but as is also evident in said freebasing rampage, its lack of the original's immense, contiguous scenes is a blow I feel like the comedown from a bad batch of crack brownies. I don't lose much sleep over it though, if it was a choice between S2's hyper-reponsive action and another spectacularly panoramic game with the original's far more limited controls I wouldn't be moved. The first game will always deliver that experience.

"All sons of old gods... DIE!" <-FN AWESOME BIT, I'M GONNA GET YOU MEIOU

[jepjepjep]

Osman > Strider > Strider 2 >= Run Saber > This abomination

Having not played Run Saber, I'd pretty much agree with this. But sometimes I think that Strider is slightly better than Osman because of the atmosphere and music. The mechanics is Osman are a definite improvement though. I'm hopeful that Strider HD turns out to be a good game, but not optomistic so far.

Osman = Strider > Strider 2

It's not even a matter of getting hit suddenly, though - the shots will actually stop short of hitting Hiryuu (if you're approaching from the spot in Rob's screencap, at least; you can also take the lowest path and potentially not encounter him at all, or get shot for poking your head up halfway through, but it's all blind either way). The problem I have is, at the point the bullets hit the ground, you're flying totally blind. The solution (throw yourself towards the gunfire's path, causing the still-unseen Gunner to adjust his aim, miss and get sliced) is a snap, and also completely illogical. It's just crummy game design.

That's true, he shoots from offscreen when you get close, but the bullets hit the ground in front of you if you enter the area carefully. So it's not totally cheap. Fortunately the game usually gives you a long sword before that point so if you know that he's there beforehand you can jump and take him out before he hits you. If you don't have the long sword and assuming you didn't know about him beforehand, you can retreat a little bit, then do a running jump towards him and slide right when you land and you'll end up beneath him, from there you can jump up and take him out. It's all perfectly doable without taking any damage if you time it right.

"All sons of old gods... DIE!" <-FN AWESOME BIT, I'M GONNA GET YOU MEIOU

Really awesome!

I would like Strider 1 a lot better with better movement.

The game was designed around the fixed jump trajectory. It would be totally broken if you could maneuver in the air. That's where I think Osman really shines. They gave you very fluid movement mechanics and built the power-up system so that you still have to get in close to place your shadows to deal damage. I think that game really is a hidden gem.

[Ed Oscuro]

Yeah, I meant coming in diagonally. Mentioning planes was confusing. What I mean is that in the original Strider, bullets don't always come in directly along the same path that Hiryu is on.

jepjepjep is onto what I don't usually mention but should...I tend to not be keen on many games with acrobatic gameplay (and requirements) that also lack air control. You really have to be committed to what you're doing beforehand. I guess, on the 3D side, RE4 and now Onimusha have shown me that I can deal with that better than I thought, but it still requires more effort than just doing the whole shmup precision dodge thing.

One thing that's nice which Strider does is cram an entire game's worth of Call of Duty-style exposition into five seconds, with the various overlapping sound bites. Angry Russian man is gonna get me -> Big Bad cackle -> I GOT YA. So many lumps of offensive flesh to cleave open, where do we start?!

[jepjepjep]

This is a really interesting interview where the game designer talks about how the system was basically taken from Daimakaimura but then extended. That's probably where the fixed jump trajectory came from.

Who came up with the initial concept?

Development of the first CP System (CPS) game, Daimakaimura, had begun. Then Development Division 3 (Kihaji Okamoto's group) began work on Lost World, the second CPS game. That left the third. I was told to write the plan by the group leader, Fujihara. The story and world view, as stated before, was a collaboration between Motomiya Kikaku and us. Creating the story and world was fun work, but the life of the game is in the game system. Fujihara, who was in development with Daimakaimura, stressed the importance of a new game system to me. He said an action game like Rolling Thunder where you fight while going up and down different layers would be good. PCBs back then did not hold an abundant amount of data for graphics. The CPS was developed to free ourselves from that. Repeated geographic blocks which were used for Daimakaimura's topography were drawn with elegant curves in Daimakaimura. I took those slanting surfaces to the next level, imagining a magnificent playing field. Running up steep slants, climbing vertical walls, running back down, jumping over things, hanging off ledges, and running, running, running to freedom.

After becoming bored from talks at the hotel in Shinjuku, I escaped to the hallway. I sat on the sofa out there, and comfortably took some notes. How far could I take an action game with 1 lever and 2 buttons? It was in unlocking that small mystery that the game design of Strider Hiryu was created.

[CMoon]

All that bashing on Strider 2 would be pretty much moot without the technical limitations. Slightly better hardware could have resulted in more continuity...plus, seriously, Strider 1 has some truly tiny levels. I think you can beat the game in under 19 minutes if you don't care about score.

Strider 2 is far more about rank and score. It is FAR harder to 1cc. In fact, let's be upfront, Strider 1 is an amazingly easy game that with a little practice presents absolutely NO challenge.

A lot of Strider 2's levels are actually more dynamic/dramaic than the orginal Strider. I love both games dearly, but if I'm not exactly in the same camp as Skykid, I'm of he opinion that both games are amazing.

I'll actually go the additional step and say that on slightly better hardware with more continuous levels and no slow down, Strider 2 beats Strider 1 except in the nostalgia department.

Osman I can't really comment on. I know it is great, but I never put that much time into it.

[GaijinPunch]

What was up with that NES port of Strider?

It wasn't a port. Strider was a franchise, and they developed an NES game, an arcade game, and a manga series all mostly independently. There were some base concepts shared around, but not all that much.

Kouichi Yotsui Discography
Kouichi Yotsui Mail Interview

Both pretty interesting.

[boagman]

In fact, let's be upfront, Strider 1 is an amazingly easy game that with a little practice presents absolutely NO challenge.

Nope, disagree. The antigravity level, coupled with the Grand Master boss fight render your point incorrect.

Now, I'm not saying that Strider is the toughest game ever to get through, but those two things alone *definitely* present challenge to even a seasoned player. Just because it *can* be done doesn't mean that there's no challenge in doing so. That's a fallacy.

[Skykid]

In fact, let's be upfront, Strider 1 is an amazingly easy game that with a little practice presents absolutely NO challenge.

Nope, disagree. The antigravity level, coupled with the Grand Master boss fight render your point incorrect.

Now, I'm not saying that Strider is the toughest game ever to get through, but those two things alone *definitely* present challenge to even a seasoned player. Just because it *can* be done doesn't mean that there's no challenge in doing so. That's a fallacy.

Just use the italic tags.

I think what he's probably getting at is that Strider 2 is a much more testing game, and has plenty of reward because of it. Strider is a ninja, and learning the sequel thoroughly will really make you feel like one. My biggest issue with S2 is the last boss, who's such a complete cock to kill.

But all this segmentation and haphazard design commentary is just bullshit, I'm sorry. Evidently the game hasn't been played enough.