Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Squire Grooktook]

It feels a lot less refined and a lot more laggy than Metal Slug's more refined arcs though. Not to mention this is a sidescroller which means enemies almost never appear from an angle besides cardinal/diagonal. The few times enemies do jump at you from a diagonal usually become harder as a result as you struggle to wibble wobble the gun into the correct direction.

Maybe Bill and Lance arrived at the scene half-drunk, this time. Makes me feel like I'm having a hangover, at least.

Of course, dedicated practice can probably attune one to the not-entirely-obvious way in which the aim adjusts itself and the speed at which it does so, but you shouldn't have to for such a fundamental action IMO.

[Squire Grooktook]

Maybe Bill and Lance arrived at the scene half-drunk, this time.

Actually, now that I think about it, the opening cinematic seems to confirm this.

[BIL]

I like AC Super Contra a whole lot, but it's no misunderstood masterpiece. The controls and overall response are simply too sludgy. Clean 'em up and I'd give it a full endorsement.

[AC Super Contra] top down stages play like steaming vomit. The molasses slow move speed gives it its own flavor, but also serves to put it forever behind the ecstatic speed of later installments.

Your opinion of the top-down stages makes me wonder if you accidentally found a pair of rare rom-hacks where Contra 3 and ASC had their top-down stages swapped.

Love or hate Contra III's topdown stages, they are very fast-moving and their control response is objectively instantaneous.

The cool thing about the slow movement speed is that it really makes you *fight* your way forward. It gives the game that Ninja Spirit feel -- pounding your way through the hordes and hordes of enemy soldiers. Embrace the violent grind.

Wait - I thought Contra III was the slow one? :\ They're not both slow, I assure you.

But yeah I totally get the slow drive forward thing. I was no-missing on the highest difficulty setting in something like six minutes by the time I moved on (didn't know about the second loop at the time), and my MO was get Super Machinegun, then methodically move in such a way the aim lag couldn't jam things up.

Ninja Spirit sublimely marshals lunar gravity and teeming horde mowdowns, it's true. However nobody ever would take on st3's marshes or st6's battlefield with the aim-lagged shuriken. That's the sweeping chain or guarding katana's job. ASC is effectively NS with projectile weapons only, and it suffers accordingly.

I actually really like the aim controls, since they let you do the Metal Slug heavy machine gun sweep.

Metal Slug's HMG is indeed Just Motherfucking Right. ASC is again below standard. Alien Spider at 10 o'clock? I'm not gonna heave the SMG stream around to him - I'm gonna move up so we're parallel, then unleash instant cardinal-directed death before moving on. It's entirely workable but undeniably flawed.

What pisses me off about the Famicom port is, they fixed the control reponse... but the topdown stages are mostly ghost towns (the second is still pretty fun, but its shitty knockoff Gyaba is a bad joke). And the sidescrolling stages based on ASC are likewise stripped of arcade fury and concentration. I wish the FC game had been an original home sequel. When it's deliberately going off-script (st5, st8) it's a lot more entertaining. As it is, the AC and FC games have stuff the other needs.

Maybe Bill and Lance arrived at the scene half-drunk, this time.

Actually, now that I think about it, the opening cinematic seems to confirm this.

Given ASC has our heroes shrugging off their wounds to continue the slaughter, instead of dying and respawning like girly-men, I prefer to think they were hopped-up on something. (see avatar)

[Obiwanshinobi]

Is there a whole autoscrolling game made exclusively of Contra-bike-like stages? Or would you consider Son Son and Chelnov effectively this?
Or while we're at it - any gravity-bound vehicular game where you can't possibly stop (no speed control). I know of such single stages in a number of games (S&P2's highway, Rayman 3's "disco" journeys, Super Monkey Ball Jr. staff roll minigame), but I've yet to play Kirby Air Ride...

[BIL]

Is there a whole autoscrolling game made exclusively of Contra-bike-like stages? Or would you consider Son Son and Chelnov effectively this?

Nothing on a vehicle comes to mind, though it wouldn't surprise me that something's out there... very offhandedly, I believe Edono Kiba (SFC) is comprised entirely of "running man" scenes.

Son Son and Chelnov both let you halt in place, so I think they're slightly different cases.

Or while we're at it - any gravity-bound vehicular game where you can't possibly stop (no speed control). I know of such single stages in a number of games (S&P2's highway, Rayman 3's "disco" journeys, Super Monkey Ball Jr. staff roll minigame), but I've yet to play Kirby Air Ride...

I know Drum (RIP ;-;) loved his Jump Bug (arcade), and trap+Macaw mentioned Banishing Racer / Vanishing Racer (GB) which I still need to try. At the time I wondered if there was an entire subgenre of vehicular autoscrollers... there's also that bizarre Paris-Dakar Famicom game, which is multi-genre but involves a bit of sidescrolling (including Roger Moore-style underwater driving!). The opening is some crummy RPG stuff that'll require some sort of walkthrough if you're not JP-literate unfortunately.

[mamboFoxtrot]

I haven't played arcade Contra, but talking about aiming lag reminds me HC: Uprising's weird quirk where there is sometimes aiming lag when you're turning around while not firing. The easiest place to see this in action is the stage 1 motorbike boss. You start off facing right, so if you press left and strafe quickly, you'll probably end up shooting up-left instead.

Is there a whole autoscrolling game made exclusively of Contra-bike-like stages? Or would you consider Son Son and Chelnov effectively this?
Or while we're at it - any gravity-bound vehicular game where you can't possibly stop (no speed control). I know of such single stages in a number of games (S&P2's highway, Rayman 3's "disco" journeys, Super Monkey Ball Jr. staff roll minigame), but I've yet to play Kirby Air Ride...

You can stop in Kirby's Air Ride. It's how you drift and boost around corners and activate various floor panels (if you're not a bike), and unfortunately also how you use most of your powers. Both of those uses are actually kind of a pain when using the one vehicle that can only go full speed or dead stop.

[Vludi]

I'm pretty sure the aiming lag in the arcade Contras was on purpouse to make it feel like faux-analogue controls with the stick. It sounds lke a good idea but it doesn't work all that well.

By the way you guys should play Wolf Fang, it's kinda like a Chelnov spiritual-sequel but with a lot more focus on shooting than platforming, pretty challenging game and it can get frantic as hell

[BIL]

I'm pretty sure the aiming lag in the arcade Contras was on purpouse to make it feel like faux-analogue controls with the stick. It sounds lke a good idea but it doesn't work all that well.

Concurred - AC Jackal also took this approach, unfortunately. It was rough finally getting to play the AC versions of these games after growing up with the airlock-tight NES controls, though it's not impossible to adjust.

Wolf Fang is indeed rad as all hell - the most rampantly aggressive mecha sidescroller I'm aware of. Someday I'm gonna tackle the epic Expert Mode (how to enable it in the PS1 version)

[Obscura]

Love or hate Contra III's topdown stages, they are very fast-moving and their control response is objectively instantaneous[...]

Wait - I thought Contra III was the slow one? :\ They're not both slow, I assure you.

I took Squire's comments on ASC's slow walk speed to be referring to the sidescrolling stages, not the top-downs, since he quickly dismissed the latter as "steaming vomit". My issue with Contra 3's top-down stages isn't the speed, but, rather, the nausea-inducing Brandish-cam.

Ninja Spirit sublimely marshals lunar gravity and teeming horde mowdowns, it's true. However nobody ever would take on st3's marshes or st6's battlefield with the aim-lagged shuriken. That's the sweeping chain or guarding katana's job. ASC is effectively NS with projectile weapons only, and it suffers accordingly.

To be fair, do the shuriken have any use at all? I always used the bombs if I needed range, but I never managed a 1CC, either.

[Squire Grooktook]

The slow move speed is a matter of taste during the side scrolling stages, and a matter of oh god help me I'm a snail* during the top down stages. Compound this with the actual need to constantly aim in more directions besides left and right...

And yeah shurikens kinda suck in Ninja Spirit, and I've made it to the final. Bombs and Whip all the way. I've tried seeing if I can make sword work in places (seeing as it also has bullet deflection properties) but whip seems better.


*alternate title for this image: The Raiden 3/Dracula XX experience

[BIL]

Oh right! I don't really notice the sidescrolling move speed tbh. Probably due to the skinny 3:4 screen ratio, and the pace being so relentless. The bit immediately after Great Heli where you can hug the right screen edge as the scroll unlocks, then proceed to bunny-massacre the million or so guys guarding the front gate is such a laugh every time.

NS Shuriken seem pretty outmoded after st1, yeah - I like mowing through the zako+monks after powering them up, but after that, crowds are better warded off with bullet-cancelling chain/sword, and bombs seem to crack hard targets quicker.

I'm not entirely certain what the hard and fast rules are with NS's weapon balance, though. IIRC, BGR44's insane no-miss uses chain exclusively.

*alternate title for this image: The Raiden 3/Dracula XX experience

Oh no, raking up old graves! I was even going to say that as much as I dislike XX's walk, I stop noticing it once the more technical stages arrive! Also, now I'm remembering Uzumaki's "unfortunate snail sex" bit, gahhh! >_<

[Squire Grooktook]

I think the move speed during the side scrolling stages becomes more noticeable if you come to it immediately after the later games. C3 and Hardcorps feel much faster in comparison, and even the bullets are a slot slower in Super AC, to the point that it made me recall the contrast between a Touhou and a Raiden Fighters title. Again, nothing wrong with that, it's certainly a nice chunky change of pace. But it's hard to call it definitive when it's such a different style. The top down stages as I said is where it just feels off.

Back to Ninja Spirits: Weapon selection is pretty damn balanced if you only consider Chain + Bomb. Actually makes me want to try a Sword + Shuriken only run. Might make for an interesting self imposed arrange mode :3

[BIL]

I actually find the POW sword really useful during st3's marsh, coupled with bunnyhopping to keep speed up - I switch to it from chain as soon as the field is done (chain is essential there - standing attack kills rifles+their bullets instantly, and combos easily into an overhead arc that'll clear out leaping katana and chasing rifles).

Both sword and chain will ward off wolves, katanas and rifle bullets, but the sword's shorter range makes it far easier to avoid hitting a flying monk staff in the process. Waiting for monks to throw their staff, then bunnyhopping through the gap is integral to my method, since this avoids the top of the screen and its risk of a Surprise Wolfing. No idea if it's suboptimal, but it consistently works for me

I seem to recall POW+shadowed shuriken doing oddly high damage to certain hard targets like giants and samurai, but the former are always accompanied by hordes of shooting and charging zako, and grenade blast is more useful for collaterally taking out the latter's ceiling ninja support.

It's the slight but critical aim lag that really puts me off the shuriken. The game's nightmarish enough as it is, without worrying that I'll be outright powerless to hit something in time.

[Vludi]

I kinda want to practice Ninja Spirit, but that last descent really puts me off, the execution for all that memorization is too strict.
Oh well, at least i cleared the watered down spiritual sequel Kengo.

[BIL]

Aye, the st7 Ninja Pit is a tragically poor penultimate challenge. >_< I can't think of any harder fall from grace in a sidescroller. Stages 1-2 are fun, 3 through 6 are essentially perfect, and although 7-1's gas traps are cruelly under-telegraphed, it's certainly within punishing reason. 7-2's pit is a rote memory test of the most joylessly literal sort. It's also hopelessly uncalibrated design from a game that, until that point, alchemically fuses lunar grace and inescapable, heart-pounding intensity. Even if the pit was open enough for twitch dodging, the handling simply isn't geared for it.

Having said all this, the majority of the game truly is an exceedingly great sidescroller - not even counting the envelopingly gloomy ninja/horror style (only Taromaru comes close, imo, but its sometimes garish poly/sprite fusions lack the timelessness of Irem's beautifully muted 2D).

I'd say it's entirely understandable to master everything up to the pit, then call it a day.

If it's of any help, here's a link to Mosquito-sama's heroic mapping of the arcade pit, and my own humble GIF showing the EZ PC-Engine route (the PCE pit is, ruefully, even less forgiving normally, due to the smaller viewable area and lack of background markers... what a cockup that blasted pit was, honestly).

[CIT]

The ninja pit is actually the reason I prefer the PC Engine version in gameplay terms. Just gotta work out that (one ninja-width from the left) safespot and you're good to go.

[wiNteR]

Arcade Super Contra is good. Don't know how good though, since I have played it very little. The complaints about aiming might be right (can't really say) but the feeling of maneuvering through the stages (relatively slowly) is unique.

Also, I completed this challenge (been sometime now) that I mentioned before myself (requires emulator save). I went from first boss to the last in ordered manner.

For GS Mikami, try to do a no damage run for all the bosses (similar to boss rush) in one go (not possible on real hardware though).

Also, try doing it without upgraded weapon and/or spells. It's a short and fun challenge. I haven't completed it myself but I have cleared all the bosses individually in this manner.

Turned out to be slightly easier than I thought (partly because probably it just takes less than 5 minutes to complete it ... so you can retry many times). Still quite a bit of fun though. This game has good bosses, but stages probably lack comparatively.

Since Ninja Spirit is being talked about, something that probably hasn't been mentioned much. An year or two back (or maybe more) I was experimenting with what might be a more fun way to play it than the default maximalist way (well the game is difficult as it is ... I was trying to find a more fun way to play it). So I imposed the following restraints:
1) no weapon other than shiruken
2) no power-ups/invincibility of any kind whatsoever (must actively avoid)

OK the first restriction I should have dropped probably. Couldn't complete the stage part of stage-3 with this restriction. But the first two stages were distinctly fun in this way, and the third stage too up till the point where it just becomes too much. Maybe I should have dropped the first restriction and seen how far one can go.

But I was thinking that maybe someone should have made a more minimalist version of a game like this (could potentially be an amazing game), just holding back the number of enemy waves a bit more.

[BIL]

Just banning the supremely useful chain is probably enough of a challenge in the arcade version, tbh. The PCE's arcade mode I could just about see handling without it, being a notch below the PCB's hardest spots... PCB stage 6 is a goddamn meat grinder though.

One big point in AC Super Contra's favour, that I'd forgotten - every runner zako in the first topdown stage can shoot at you. I wish more games in the series had done this. Marked shooters make sense in the absolute rush of III's Hard ver. opening streets - negotiating the battery of set spawns and the RNG horde would invite ridiculous blind luck otherwise - but nearly everywhere else, they're a silly crutch. FC Super's runners are well and truly left up shit creek. (the AC sidescroller ones are entirely unique sprites, it's true... but like III st1 Hard ver, it's actually called for!)

Even knowing the first FC port's runners are limited to shooting in specific level sectors, they're an endless source of trepidation and amusement. Particularly as those sectors tend to pair them with heavy gunners, who'll quickly pin the hesitant down for a SCUBA-equipped cohort to execute ("I couldn't do anything!" yowls Mike in the ill-fated AVGN run - nobody ducks for free motherfucker! ).

[Squire Grooktook]

The lack of gun equipped runners during the first half of Contra 4 is one of my few genuine problems with it. Once you get to the city stage, it busts out some Contra 3 styled color coded run and gunners, but that stage is pretty decisively late game. The (confirmed) rng spawning of the runners in C4 does serve its job of forcing a twitchy push forward, but it does feel a bit sterile at times. The emphasis on platforming easily compensates though.

[WelshMegalodon]

While on the topic of Konami, I was curious as to whether anyone had played the Famicom installments of Hi no Tori and Knightmare. The Famicom game based on Tezuka's seminal work preceded the MSX classic by a few months and is an entirely different game; Maze of Galious appears to be more of a typical 'remix' case. Thoughts?

[BIL]

I've very briefly dabbled with the former, and have a bit more experience with the latter. I thought Hi no Tori seemed really cool. Maybe a bit easy, at a glance (I recall mowing through quite a few stages+bosses on my first sitdown). But I don't know any other sidescrollers with that Solomon's Key-esque block building mechanic. I plan to revisit at some point, it's on my rainy day FC list.

The FC version of Majou Densetsu II is a drastic reworking of the MSX game, to my initial disappointment (always thought the original's single-screening looked cool). It's not bad at all, though nothing I'd call essential. Huge overworld labyrinth pocked by impasses and containing several smaller sub-dungeons - explore these, kill bosses for items, etc etc. Action is solidly unremarkable; aesthetically it's surprisingly bland for Konami. Has absolutely nothing on Getsu Fuuma Den.

Best feature is the level design's distinct lateral thinking element; getting from A to B is sometimes fiendishly complicated. Unfortunately the text-only interface will be a total pain in the ass if you're not JP-literate. Strategywiki's page has a pretty nice translation, I printed it out and referred to it while playing. There's a translation hack out there too, IIRC.

Substantial labyrinth ARPG but again, nothing to go too far out of your way for. I got pretty far in from what I could tell, but then the copy I'd picked up for peanuts arrived and it was in decidedly crummier shape than shown. So I got a bit pissed off, then forgot all about it.

[ilitirit]

Is there a thread or post here that lists recent 2D arcade-style action platformers? I'm so sick of all these Metroidvania clones with terrible movement mechanics, "roguelikes" with no personality, and mediocre games in wrapped up in pixel/8-bit graphics.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'll do a quickie for some I know. Might clarify more later. I suppose "recent" might be stretching it for some of these, but eh.

* = solid
* = good
* = must play
Bolded = transcendent


Gigantic Army ***
Armored Soldier Gunhound Ex **
Oniken *
Bleed **
Super Cyborg **
Downwell ***
Freedom Planet *
Volgarr The Viking **
Noitu Love 2 Devolution ***

I've omitted a few personal favorites, like They Bleed Pixels and Rogue Legacy, because they don't fit your arcade-style qualifiaction. Downwell features some semi randomized stages, but it's otherwise a rock hard arcade gravity murder sim, with a consistent scoring system to boot. Freedom Planet is akin to certain Treasure titles (a developer who's influence the game wears on its sleeve) in that it technically fits the general structure despite arguably being a bit too long for single sitting play sessions.

[ilitirit]

I'll do a quickie for some I know. Might clarify more later. I suppose "recent" might be stretching it for some of these, but eh.

* = solid
* = good
* = must play
Bolded = transcendent


Gigantic Army ***
Armored Soldier Gunhound Ex **
Oniken *
Bleed **
Super Cyborg **
Downwell ***
Freedom Planet *
Volgarr The Viking **
Noitu Love 2 Devolution ***

I've omitted a few personal favorites, like They Bleed Pixels and Rogue Legacy, because they don't fit your arcade-style qualifiaction. Downwell features some semi randomized stages, but it's otherwise a rock hard arcade gravity murder sim, with a consistent scoring system to boot. Freedom Planet is akin to certain Treasure titles (a developer who's influence the game wears on its sleeve) in that it technically fits the general structure despite arguably being a bit too long for single sitting play sessions.

Thanks. I know about most of those already though. In fact I just bought Downwell yesterday (great game). I think I'll scoop Volgarr and Noitu Love 2 (I actually forgot to put this in my cart yesterday). Not familiar with Bleed. I'll give it a look.

I've got Rogue Legacy and it's pretty decent IMO. I'll check out They Bleed Pixels as well. I'm still on the Fence about Freedom Planet. I'll watch some LP vids.

EDIT: Flip it. I might as well just add it to my cart as well.

[Vludi]

I need to play Gigantic Army some time, since i really like Valken.
Noitu Love 2 looks interesting but not a fan of mouse controls.

[BIL]

Gigantic Army is an absolute must-play for Valken fans. It can't match its cinematic flair (nor can most games, ofc) but it plays even better. Corrects Valken's few mechanical shortcomings (smoother gun/fist interplay via automelee; shield is guard-metered and mono-directional), while adding much fiercer enemy resistance. "Insane" difficulty plays like ASV's intense endgame urban warfare right from the outset.

Even has a nice scoring system that rewards fast, unscathed clearing; unintrusive yet intense. Check out Kyper's 18m run, an absolute beauty.

OST is weak but there are ways around that. ;3 (SFX definitely aren't weak - smashingly violent game, as per Astro Port's usual standard)

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

On this subject, Assault Suits Leynos' remake is going to hit PC in about a week. Really excited to try it out - I dug the original, but it was definitely a fairly flawed game and this seems like it will be much cooler.

Gotta say your list makes me interested in playing Downwell and Noitu Love 2, Grooktook. Downwell seems rad but I hadn't really given it much thought.

[Ghegs]

I've tried to start playing Noitu Love 2 several times, but I just can't get into the control scheme. The constant clicking is kind of meh, so I made it so I wouldn't have to constantly keep hitting the left mouse button but could just hold another button down to achieve the same effect (mouse autofire, yo) but it just feels wrong to play a 2D action-platformer with WASD and mouse. A shame, because it looks really fun.

[Squire Grooktook]

I use the "nunchuck" set up I use for many fps: Hold controller in one hand (for d-pad), mouse with the other. Left shoulder button for jumps or other needed utilities.

Noitu is probably the raddest example of mouse based combat ever. It's a blistering kung fu extravaganza that's inspired and designed around its control scheme perfectly. I recommend keeping at it.

[Ghegs]

One more that should be checked out: Slain! Don't be scared off by the Mixed overall status of its reviews. It was originally released in a buggy and incomplete state, and the reviews (rightfully so) reflected that. But it's been patched extensively since then, with more patches coming in soon, so all reviews made before May 30th should just be ignored completely.