Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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BurlyHeart
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BurlyHeart »

Finished TMNT story mode. Enjoyed it. Not sure how seriously I can take the game, but it was certainly fun.

Tons of references to the old cartoon show and it looks great.

I will say this tho:
Spoiler
The final boss Super Shredder was very anti-climactic...
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by it290 »

BrianC wrote:Mark MSX seems to be mostly referring to the SNES version of Turtles in Time. Arcade is quite a different beast with some moves much harder to pull off and way more cheapness compared to the SNES version. The first TMNT AC was also different from the home versions and had a different method for throws. A similar method was used for TMNT: The Manhattan Project on NES. I also feel the Hyperstone Heist does some things better than Turtles in Time SNES (mainly a more reliable dash that is set to manual by default).
Sure, but I feel like this game is really built around the iframes from the roll move. It still does a lot of stupid stuff sometimes, but you do get a fair bit of flexibility with the roll, followup attack, back attack, and shoryuken than you do with the classic games. It feels more freeflowing with Shredder's Revenge, the problem is that there are enemies who inevitably break that and then you're forced to restart your combo. No possibility to keep a chain flowing through an entire stage like SoR4, but the flow does feel temporarily good while you're in it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by hien »

Apparently I'm an idiot and originally posted this in the wrong thread I just noticed. Hope I didn't mess up this time.
____
Phew, just got the Solo Arcade clear on Gnarly in Shredder's Revenge. No 1CC of course, though I don't even know if this makes a big difference score-wise. Wonder if spare continues are added to the score after a clear. Since I was on my last credit I can't tell.

Wish I enjoyed it more to be honest and I probably wouldn't even have bothered going for the clear if the presentation wasn't that nice. There are too many things I don't like about the controls, the generel movement (especially vertical movement feels so limited and sluggish, that you often have to resort to using the subpar tracking of the evade attack to get to enemies above or under you reasonably quick. And btw. why does the evade not work vertically too? Would make the game much better imo), framedata, hitboxes and how certain enemy types can pretty much cause an uncontrollable clusterfuck on the screen if they feel like it. The latter mostly thanks to some questionable decisions concerning (super) armor and shields. For example, why exactly do the bigger Mousers have super armor combined with instantaneous attacks which can pretty much kill you in 2-3 hits? The Triceratons with their shields and the stone soldiers with their super armor during tackles can also cause some situations, which are pretty much impossible to get out of without taking damage with the tools you have.
The implied concept of dashing behind an enemy with a shield much too often collapses as soon as you have two of these enemy types overlapping horizontally and facing different directions. The fact, that in situations like this the tracking of the evade attack much too often doesn't choose the enemy you were having in mind doesn't exactly help either. And while we're at it: who on earth had the bright idea not giving the player i-frames during throws and instead giving you super armor? This is so unbelievably dumb and especially for characters with very slow throws like for example Raph, doing one is pretty much suicide since the enemies will totally fuck you up during the animation.

Maybe I just suck and there are indeed solutions for these things I didn't figure out, but what I mostly relied on in the end was the taunt mechanic - which honestly felt a bit cheap/tedious and I would have much prefered an automatic recharge of the meter instead (comparable to what you have in SoR3 for example). I pretty much ended up doing a taunt after every cleared screen/enemy wave before moving on, just so I had meter for the next one. Which I then would use for the (op) air super move to instantly clear out the more bothersome enemy types mentioned above. In fact, I didn't kill a single one of those bigger Mousers normally, nor did I even want to try during an attempt. And I would even go so far as to assume that this was probably the intended way of playing the game by the devs, judging from pretty much nothing preventing you from doing the taunts between waves. Even the timer for the totally unnecessary combo system is long enough to continue strings with taunts inbetween. The bosses as well have massive gaps in their patterns, which frequently give you time for taunts. And at least these and their patterns themselves are designed well for the most part I'd say. Except for that stupid car from Stage 3 and Rocksteady with his annoying granades of course. Grenades generally being a big pain in this game btw. with their hitboxes being active much too long. So long in fact, that they can even kill you after a boss kill I learned… Most of the later bosses are also surprisingly easy and imo much easier than the earlier ones. Though I won't complain about that in a game which takes 1,5-2 hours to clear.

Anyway, I'm a bit on the fence with this one and would love to see some noticable changes and balancing to the game, though I'm not counting too much on this to happen. People seem to be so blown away by the graphics and presentation alone that I have my doubts the devs will hear a relevant amount of criticism to feel the need to change anything.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by it290 »

Well spoken! I feel like that pretty much summarizes my thoughts on the game as well.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Great post hien, marked for index. :smile:
Sumez wrote:
BIL wrote:I didn't realise the calibre of talent (or the smart pairing of specialised mechanic & art teams) behind SOR4. :o That makes sense... I've no doubt it's an excellent game, just going by the calibre of peeps who vouch for it ITT and elsewhere, but I couldn't help thinking "Where was DotEmu hiding all this talent?" :lol: I only really know them for those disastrous standalone emulations of Metal Slug 3 and Shock Troopers (avoid like the plague - go with the superb ACA NeoGeo versions instead), and a just-acceptable PS4 Ys Origin.
Dotemu seems to know either 1. who to utilize or 2. which projects to back, because despite their spotty reputation with emulation releases, their nostalgia sequels seem to have a good thing going. I tried Windjammers 2 a couple of weeks ago and can confirm it's legit.
Interesting to hear! Thanks for the tip, I'll have to start paying more attention to this stuff.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BrianC »

it290 wrote:
BrianC wrote:Mark MSX seems to be mostly referring to the SNES version of Turtles in Time. Arcade is quite a different beast with some moves much harder to pull off and way more cheapness compared to the SNES version. The first TMNT AC was also different from the home versions and had a different method for throws. A similar method was used for TMNT: The Manhattan Project on NES. I also feel the Hyperstone Heist does some things better than Turtles in Time SNES (mainly a more reliable dash that is set to manual by default).
Sure, but I feel like this game is really built around the iframes from the roll move. It still does a lot of stupid stuff sometimes, but you do get a fair bit of flexibility with the roll, followup attack, back attack, and shoryuken than you do with the classic games. It feels more freeflowing with Shredder's Revenge, the problem is that there are enemies who inevitably break that and then you're forced to restart your combo. No possibility to keep a chain flowing through an entire stage like SoR4, but the flow does feel temporarily good while you're in it.
Did you quote the wrong post (maybe you meant to quote the one about the flying attack)? In this post, I was referring to the Turtles in Time arcade version, not arcade mode. I was disappointed in the lack of comparison of the other games since the AC TMNT also had armor on bosses, IIRC.

edit: I didn't remember correctly. I was probably thinking of the NES version where Rocksteady still flinches, but can't be knocked down. I'm also under the impression the game has a few things inspired by other TMNT games besides Turtles in Time (like Dirtbag, who was also in TMNT III for NES).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by hien »

it290 wrote:
Sengoku Strider wrote:Mark MSX put Turtles through the wringer:

https://youtu.be/IfN0imRhadg
Yeah. He's wrong in saying it's worse than Turtles in Time though, this game offers way more options for the player than that.
I agree. After watching parts of it I can say that there is a lot of valid criticism that matches my own but this praise for Turtles in Time over SR I definitely don't get. Yeah, it's a fun little game and all but also super basic and simplistic. The game gives you a total overpowered tackle that has massive i-frames and priority, which you can do consecutively, works on every enemy on the ground and which you can instantly follow up with a throw (which then again are op as well since they instant-kill almost every enemy that is throwable and even give you the option to clear the screen with via the "handshake"-variation). Not much sense in doing anything else since there is also so little enemy variation that nothing forces you to. It's also not really that impressive, that a game that has only four bigger enemies on the screen simultanously which also don't really demand different approaches, achieves to be much more managable for the player. You could even argue that hitstun is not too short in SR but rather a bit too long in the SNES game. SR has a lot of problems but it not having enough variation or even less than Turtles in Time (which simply isn't true) is not one of them in my opinion. I'd even say that it's exactly the opposite with them rather striving for too much enemy variation and losing themselves in the process with the super armor/shield approach, which they apparently viewed as the solution but did not exactly know how to balance properly. It's pretty much a dilemma you get yourself into, if you want to have a classic approach without diluting it too much with modern mechanics like the evade on the one hand, but then on the other hand with this approach create situations which are so relient on this tool being much more potent than you want it to be.

What I totally agree with is the criticism of the sluggishness (though I don't see the problem with the slide after the dash since this is really not that uncommon for the genre I think?) and I found it interesting that he had the same problem with the dash I had in the beginning. What you have to realize coming from the SNES game: you don't use the dash in the same way here. It imo has three basic functions. 1) Quickly adjusting your horizontal position 2) setting up the slide for enemies which demand it and 3) to slide under projectiles (which for me is the most fun use of it). What you don't do with it: attack normal enemies. The tackle which comes out of it is crap, since it knocks down enemies and most of the time pushes them so far away that your follow-ups won't connect. What you do instead: the evade-attack (not a big surprise, I know). I think it's the best way to approach pretty much any enemy in the game. I don't even attack normal Foots without it. It comes out quickly*, is more realiable than trying to attack enemies with your raw standard combo (with it's much too slow startup speed…), has good range and priority, tracks enemies vertically which is vital and also makes you close in on enemies quickly enough, so that the CPU has less time to react to you getting into it's proximity for counter attacks. If you try to play it like Turtles in Time by focusing on the dash, you're bound to the get frustrated by the game before the really frustrating stuff even begins. ;)

The criticism of the bosses is also something I don't agree with. It's true that taunting is one of the key elements in them but in opposite to the clusterfuck situations during the stages, which you have to cheese yourself through with the specials, you don't/can't do that with boss fights. You still have to identify patterns, evade them accordingly and also have to know, where and when you can taunt. Also, there's definitely bosses where taunts aren't an option and enough patterns where normal attacks are the better one. Saying these are samey is imo the same thing as saying Mega Man bosses are all the same.

*Edit: okay, not April's who has a really slow evade-attack I just noticed, wth. Mainly played with Leo so far (who also has a much less dumb double jump attack) and assumed, the other characters would be similar. But even with her it's the best option for approaching enemies, especially considering her pathetic range on her normal attack.
Last edited by hien on Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by TransatlanticFoe »

Finished story mode... after swapping to April about halfway through and restarting. I haven't played with anyone other than April and Donatello but the latter... just to slow to avoid getting poked and damage isn't scaled properly because some enemies took ages to take out when April can just quickly smash them.

Boss difficulty is unbalanced, I took Baxter out without any real trouble and the last few are little more than memorise attack pattern, dodge attacks, get a couple of hits in, repeat. Not especially challenging or interesting - the paired up bosses early on were often trickier and more engaging.

I found a couple of enemy types to be especially tedious. Anything that blocks, so you just have to wait for them to attack, miss and then beat them (bonus points if they counter like those white sword guys). The cheese aliens, which seem to have a narrow window between being able to attack them and them jumping on you. And the black ninjas, who die quickly but evade then counter almost everything. It's not especially punishing or anything as it usually results in taking minor damage, but it's just not fun to play (like neutral jumping your way through the shield guys in Streets of Rage 4).

It also appears very inconsistent as to how wide over the Z axis that you can be hit by stuff, almost like hurtboxes for traps like spikes extend into the Z axis instead of the Y axis. Explosions especially have a very ill-defined contact zone.

I'll wait and see what happens with balance patches before sitting down for the slog of arcade mode.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by hien »

TransatlanticFoe wrote:I found a couple of enemy types to be especially tedious.[…]The cheese aliens, which seem to have a narrow window between being able to attack them and them jumping on you. And the black ninjas, who die quickly but evade then counter almost everything.
For the pizza monsters you just use the rising attack (comes out very quickly) when they jump at you and the dive kick immediately afterwards to get to them when they're grounded after the hit. It's I guess inspired by how you countered them in the SNES Turtles in Time. The black ninjas I also found super annoying with them not getting stunned. Using the slide consecutively on them was what worked best for me since they die with only a few hits. They can still be a real pain when they're close to the edge of the screen/get off-screen while throwing stuff at you though.
It also appears very inconsistent as to how wide over the Z axis that you can be hit by stuff, almost like hurtboxes for traps like spikes extend into the Z axis instead of the Y axis. Explosions especially have a very ill-defined contact zone.
Oh right, almost forgot about this. Holes in the ground are also a good example. Sometimes it looks like you're miles away while you'll still fall into them all of a sudden.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BurlyHeart »

Final Vendetta is certainly old skool :lol:

https://twitter.com/OldManBurly/status/ ... mgxw3CU87A
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Udderdude »

Got the drop on 'em.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Udderdude wrote:Got the drop on 'em.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

Gonna be real, all the moaning about armor and shields and "balance" makes ya'll sound like scrubs, Shredder's Revenge is really tame IMO. Git gud, etc.
Sumez wrote:Ah, Skykid got a review up! Good times:

https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/sw ... rs-revenge
I agree with this review 100%, it's a great game. I don't even think it 'overstayed its welcome' as some do, although I would prefer it a bit shorter just because a 2hour game is inconvenient to 1cc. :lol: Already 1LC'd normal and 1CC'd hard, just need to smooth out some rough edges to get the hard 1LC. Only big complaint I have is I wish we could dash or dodge in 4 directions, Z-axis movement is pretty restricted for some reason.

The amount of character variety they squeeze out of one movelist is impressive. Raph knocks enemies around with ease, clearing space and generating lots of wallbounces. Mike racks up tons of hits, locking enemies in place and rapidly building supers. Don pokes from very far out, and while he lacks much innate combo ability he has the reach to pick up juggles that others can't. Leo has a unique diving spin attack that makes him an aerial powerhouse. The difference in playstyle between, for example, Mike and Splinter, is shockingly large. And speaking of character variety...
hien wrote:The tackle which comes out of it is crap since it knocks down enemies and most of the time pushes them so far away that your follow-ups won't connect.
The running attack works differently depending on your character. If you're Mikey or April, it does half the damage of other characters, knocks enemies far away, and can wallbounce. If you're Leo or Don, it knocks enemies away but not very far, and you're within reach to continue the combo. If you're Raph or Casey, it leaves enemies standing in place and puts them into copious hitstun, making it a powerful offense starter. If you're Splinter, it's an overhead strike that deals 3x the damage of Mikey/April's version, and knocks enemies straight down into a ground bounce at your feet. If you're any character other than Mikey/April/Raph, it's just a straight-up better attack than the evade attack, and if you're one of them then there's a difference of purpose between the two moves.
TransatlanticFoe wrote:Finished story mode... after swapping to April about halfway through and restarting. I haven't played with anyone other than April and Donatello but the latter... just to slow to avoid getting poked and damage isn't scaled properly because some enemies took ages to take out when April can just quickly smash them.
Basic attack damage is uniform across all characters. April's basic attack string is faster than Don's so she puts out damage at a quicker pace with it. Don makes up for this with his insane reach, better tackle/slide, and better supers. April's charge attack is pretty bad because it's so stubby, but Don's is enormous and even minimal charge is double damage.

But I mean, you're comparing the character with the shortest reach to the character with the longest reach, If April didn't attack faster than Don she'd be pretty worthless.
TransatlanticFoe wrote:I found a couple of enemy types to be especially tedious. Anything that blocks, so you just have to wait for them to attack, miss and then beat them (bonus points if they counter like those white sword guys).
Divekicks, slides, throws, charge attacks, supers, dodge behind their shield. I can't imagine why you'd ever feel the need to wait for them to attack. The white sword ninjas are a bit better at guarding their backs, but since they always counter after blocking, you can just hit their guard to bait an attack and then punish.
hien wrote:The black ninjas I also found super annoying with them not getting stunned. Using the slide consecutively on them was what worked best for me since they die with only a few hits. They can still be a real pain when they're close to the edge of the screen/get off-screen while throwing stuff at you though.
The black ninjas can't counter while airborne. So you attack them once, they jump, you hit them again before they land. Divekick immediately followed by rising attack is one simple way to achieve that.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BrianC »

I found something interesting. Some of the staff of Shredder's Revenge also worked on Ubisoft's GBA TMNT beat 'em up.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Udderdude »

TMNT 1cc w/ April - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lxcAWJ9BoQ

I want to see a 1lc, but this is pretty good already.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by XoPachi »

This is the one. Right here. Right here, YES!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn0FuXCE6X4
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by hien »

Volteccer_Jack wrote:Gonna be real, all the moaning about armor and shields and "balance" makes ya'll sound like scrubs, Shredder's Revenge is really tame IMO. Git gud, etc.
Yeah okay dude…
Only big complaint I have is I wish we could dash or dodge in 4 directions, Z-axis movement is pretty restricted for some reason.
I'm not asking for much more besides that myself btw. Well, i-frames on throws are also a no-brainer. Anyway, a vertical evade would already do wonders I think.

And it may indeed be more a question of subjective preferences that I would like to see some changes, which would make the later parts of the game a bit less dependent on memorization. I'm aware that people used to 1CC'ing 90ies arcade brawlers and planning out basically every screen don't see it that way but alas, I'm not one of them. I also don't think that certain changes, which would make a big impact in that regard, would trivialize the game too much for the super skilled players to not enjoy the game anymore.
For example, I personally would like to see you not losing (or only losing bits of your) meter when taking hits and it's not filled yet. This would change the dynamics of the battles in that it would give lesser enemies during brawls with heavy hitters a bigger purpose instead of just making them an additional nuisance. To balance this out, the meter you gain from hits could be toned down a tiny bit or the damage Supers do. With a change like this, it would also be totally viable to tone down the taunt by for example restricting you to only being able to use it while enemies are on screen. This would solve the problem of the stop and go-dynamic you have at the moment because it's just too good to not use between fights. And if all that is scrubby moaning, well, I can live with that I guess.
Volteccer_Jack wrote:If you're any character other than Mikey/April/Raph, it's just a straight-up better attack than the evade attack
I got my clear with Leo and beg to differ. The more reliable tracking alone already makes the evade-attack a better option with him imo. The tackle in my experience more frequently misses its target. It also has much more priority against enemy attacks like the Foot's jump kicks and all in all better range, probably not exposing your own hurtbox that much (tried it out again with the bikes in stage 2 which you can't tackle reliably while it's no problem with the evade). I also think (but that may be wrong) that it cancels into the string quicker. But what's even more important: the tackle has lousy vertical range and (mostly?) only hits one enemy at a time. I'm not sure, if it's even possible to hit multiple enemies simultaneously with it. Since it also puts you closer to enemies, you're then more prone to get counter attacks from the other guys you didn't hit. That risk is much lower with the evade attack. Also, the evade is great to bait enemies to then punish them - something you can't do with the dash attack. I haven't played around with other characters too much, so yeah, it might be different for them but it's hard for me to believe that I used it that incorrectly that this alone is the reason I came to the opposite conclusion.
Udderdude wrote:TMNT 1cc w/ April - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lxcAWJ9BoQ

I want to see a 1lc, but this is pretty good already.
That's a very impressive achievement. It's a bit sad, that it seems nothing in the score or the leaderboards points out, that a run was a 1CC.
What you can also see watching this: the scoring is, as expected, botched the way it is at the moment with no score reset and probably no bonus for continues. I know, not really relevant in a game like this but what's the point of leaderboards then?
Last edited by hien on Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by XoPachi »

I have to agree that Shredder's Revenge is preeetty easy. Some bosses are obnoxiously spammy but that doesnt mean they're hard. They can just take forever and overstay their welcome as they loop rush attacks or play constant keep away with maybe a 2 second window.

I hate beat em ups with rare exceptions. Havent played any since Dragon's Crown was new. I was able to clear this losing 2 lives as April first run. I will say the game is much more manageable alone though.

I was sort of hoping for aerial combos? Doesnt have to be Odin Sphere but like a 3 hit flurry or something after a rising kick would have been welcome. That was my only control gripe though Id say most others I'm seeing here are fair.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by hien »

XoPachi wrote:I have to agree that Shredder's Revenge is preeetty easy. Some bosses are obnoxiously spammy but that doesnt mean they're hard. They can just take forever and overstay their welcome as they loop rush attacks or play constant keep away with maybe a 2 second window.
The bosses aren't the problem. :) It's situations during the stages which are hard to control without having any meter left to insta-kill certain enemies. While meter also being hard to build up in busy situations with you losing it on hits when the bar isn't filled up to 100% yet. And yes, on Normal it's very easy. Or at least you get the impression of it being easy because you take so little damage and nothing really matters. It's on Hard that you realize how often you're actually getting hit, because every single hit really hurts there.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by XoPachi »

hien wrote:
The bosses aren't the problem. :) It's situations during the stages which are hard to control without having any meter left to insta-kill certain enemies. While meter also being hard to build up in busy situations with you losing it on hits when the bar isn't filled up to 100% yet. And yes, on Normal it's very easy. Or at least you get the impression of it being easy because you take so little damage and nothing really matters. It's on Hard that you realize how often you're actually getting hit, because every single hit really hurts there.
I mean...I did say that the bosses aren't hard.
I also fully expect hard mode to be particularly difficult honestly so none of that really surprises me. I've seen worse in this genre.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by hien »

XoPachi wrote:I mean...I did say that the bosses aren't hard.
It just sounded to me like that was in response to the complaints and as if those where mainly in regard to the bosses. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Some small things I noticed:
- sometimes it seems to me that I can't cancel into the rising attack out of the combo string. Still don't know if it's just a timing issue on my side or something else
- it's a minor thing most of the time, but there seems to be no priorization of active enemies over killed/greyed out ones with the tracking
- still get confused by the evade being reversed during the hoverboard stages
- with Leo the tackle is good as a fourth hit during a string against the stone soldiers, since they won't be knocked into the air when doing so and you can more easily continue attacking them
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by FunktionJCB »

This has been a great week for beat'em ups. :)

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Shredder's Revenge is quite fun, and it fits well with the SNES/Mega Drive games.
I already finished it twice, once with Donatello, and another with the overpowered Casey Jones.
A very welcome addition to the franchise, and in a way an appetizer to The Cowabunga Collection. I look forward to re-playing the older titles later this year (and playing a couple of GB titles I never played before).

---

Final Vendetta turned out to be a welcome surprise.
It pretty much feels like a sequel to the original Streets of Rage trilogy (or is it the Final Fight trilogy? Well, it plays like a cross between both). It plays great, and it has an awesome soundtrack. Really, it's insanely good! It's like a great compilation of late 80's/early 90's club tracks, covering almost every genre you can think of (acid house, drum and bass, techno, big beat, ...). They even got Utah Saints to record new music for it!
The game is well worth checking out for fans of the genre.
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Sumez
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Wasn't Final Vendetta supposed to be a Neo Geo game? What happened to that?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by FunktionJCB »

Sumez wrote:Wasn't Final Vendetta supposed to be a Neo Geo game? What happened to that?
I'm not in on all the details, since I bought (and followed) the PC version, but a Neo Geo version is still being worked on. I've seen the developers mention it. :)
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by it290 »

Final Vendetta seems much more modeled after Final Fight than Streets of Rage to me, what with the emphasis on enemies rapidly closing distance from offscreen and getting a few pokes in while you're wailing on their chums. It also has some distinctions not commonly seen in brawlers, like lots of mooks with wakeup attacks, and the inclusion of a block button (which I admit feels counterintuitive to use for me, and I haven't found much use for it yet). I'm not sure how I feel about the game yet... the art style and character design are a bit plain, the combat is pretty simplistic yet the move list / button options are surprisingly complex, and the lack of a continue option, though hardly a shocker coming from Bitmap Bureau, just seems unnecessary.

The Neo Geo version, I believe, is still being worked on. It'll be interesting to see how they handle the gameplay there, since the currently released version is in 16:9. Hopefully they don't just crop the sides and call it a day.

Regarding TMNT, I did get into a six player online game last night, and that was surprisingly fluid. It's impossible to tell what's going on half the time with all those green blobs moving around the screen, but it did successfully recreate the classic arcade vibe for me for a minute. If not a great technical brawler, if nothing else it'll probably have a sizable online userbase for a while due to the popularity of the IP and the critical reception, which is a nice bonus.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

hien wrote:It also has much more priority against enemy attacks like the Foot's jump kicks and all in all better range, probably not exposing your own hurtbox that much (tried it out again with the bikes in stage 2 which you can't tackle reliably while it's no problem with the evade). I also think (but that may be wrong) that it cancels into the string quicker. But what's even more important: the tackle has lousy vertical range and (mostly?) only hits one enemy at a time. I'm not sure, if it's even possible to hit multiple enemies simultaneously with it.
Here's a gif of Leo's dash attack beating jump kicks, hitting more than one enemy, having decent vertical range, and instantly cancelling into another attack:
Spoiler
You can also cancel into normal attacks but that probably wouldn't combo in this situation

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And can I add how utterly satisfying the charge attacks are? Just look at that savagery :D

Now granted, there is character variance. Leo's dash attack does suffer from not being active for very long, hence problems it fails to hit groups and you get punished, so he tends to rely on other options like his slide to control groups. On the other hand, Don's godlike dash attack is active so long that enemies will suicidally walk into his elbow:
Spoiler
Don't worry, you can still cancel early, you just don't want to a lot of the time

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Also, the evade is great to bait enemies to then punish them - something you can't do with the dash attack.
Easy. Do a dash attack and then cancel into evade the moment your attack makes contact. The dash attack can be cancelled into an evade. The evade attack CANNOT be cancelled into an evade. So the dash attack is the safer move of the two options.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Udderdude »

TMNT Leonardo 1cc this time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87m9HF5ipT4
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by hien »

Volteccer_Jack wrote:Here's a gif of Leo's dash attack beating jump kicks, hitting more than one enemy, having decent vertical range, and instantly cancelling into another attack:
That's great and all and I could make a gif too of that glorious moment I finally hit that biker dude with it once. But I could also make a compilation of 99% of other attempts where I failed. Just watch the beginning of stage 7 in iconoclast's 1CC video with the spear Foots. He tries to hit them with a tackle two times and gets counterd out of it twice. Then tries again with an evade attack and at least gets a trade. :!: :o After which he resorts to attacking them the normal way by using the air slash and slide.

What I'm going to admit though is that he shows that the tackle certainly has its uses when you have a better knowledge of the stages and the enemy spawns. He often uses it to "welcome" enemies of which he knows they won't be in an attack state when approaching them. He also uses it a lot to attack enemies which don't have the potential for sudden counters (the axe foots for example) or to punish enemies in their recovery. Also to follow up on enemies which have been pushed away by the attack string and are still stunned (you can do that with the evade attack as well, but I guess it's more efficient damage-wise?).
And, as mentioned above, it can also be used as a combo extension to the string to for example prevent the stone soldiers from getting into a juggle state.

The thing is: much of the stuff where he approaches enemies with it is due to him knowing the game in and out already. This isn't the case for a player like me. I've put about 9 hours with roughly four playthroughs (of which only two where on hard plus some very short failed attempts) into the game and damn, am I bad at memorizing stages. If I'd try to play the game that way, I can tell you exactly what would happen: I would get my ass handed to me. For someone who doesn't know the game that well yet, the approach via evade attack is just so much safer and more reliable.
On the other hand, Don's godlike dash attack is active so long that enemies will suicidally walk into his elbow:
That's indeed an interesting one I have to check out. There is really some noticable - but sometimes also a peculiar kind of - character variation in the game. The weirdest thing I noticed so far: with the small laser bots which move on the ground and which you have to topple over to be able to do damage to them, you can do that with a slide when playing Leo but can't when using April. She has to do I think air attacks instead and I yet don't understand what kind of properties of the moves lead to differences like these.
Easy. Do a dash attack and then cancel into evade the moment your attack makes contact.
But that's a different situation. If you're in the proximity of an enemy and baited an attack, you won't do a dash attack instead because that'd be too risky. Priority of enemy attacks is just too high for this. And the option you describe is almost the same with the evade attack. Yes, you have to wait for it to cancel into the first hit of the string to be able to do the evade, but since the evade attack doesn't put you that close to enemy groups, you'll easily have that tiny extra bit of time needed. I hardly have seen anyone employ what you describe there.
Udderdude wrote:TMNT Leonardo 1cc this time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87m9HF5ipT4
If anyone wants to have an example of what I meant with the concept of the game falling apart in certain situations, just watch that Captain Zorax-fight in Episode 11. That's pretty much how the later parts of the game in general often play out for the average player, who hasn't memorized most bits of the stages yet and who doesn't manage meter/insta-kills that wisely due to the knowledge of what lies ahead. Even to experienced players, the same can imo happen during the Traag fight, if you miss the rhythm between his attack and the tackles of his underlings.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

April's slide doesn't knockdown enemies, knockdown is how you flip those little robots.
hien wrote:That's great and all and I could make a gif too of that glorious moment I finally hit that biker dude with it once. But I could also make a compilation of 99% of other attempts where I failed.
Sigh, I only picked that particular clip because it showed all of those features of the dash attack at once in a very short period of time.
Spoiler
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And here are those motorbike enemies that are so hard to tackle. You can tell it's not rehearsed cuz I miss my cool charge attacks :cry:
Spoiler
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Is that enough yet? Or do I need to just 1cc the entire game using nothing but Leo's tackle?
Just watch the beginning of stage 7 in iconoclast's 1CC video with the spear Foots. He tries to hit them with a tackle two times and gets counterd out of it twice. Then tries again with an evade attack and at least gets a trade. :!: :o After which he resorts to attacking them the normal way by using the air slash and slide.
If you're talking about this "trade":
Spoiler
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...that's not a trade. Leo kicked a traffic cone. Then Leo got completely punked. Then while Leo was writhing in agony, the traffic cone flew threw the air and hit the enemy.
If anyone wants to have an example of what I meant with the concept of the game falling apart in certain situations, just watch that Captain Zorax-fight in Episode 11. That's pretty much how the later parts of the game in general often play out for the average player, who hasn't memorized most bits of the stages yet and who doesn't manage meter/insta-kills that wisely due to the knowledge what lies ahead. Even to experienced players, the same can imo happen during the Traag fight, if you miss the rhythm between his attack and the tackles of his underlings.
I mean first of all Zorax is IMO easily the toughest boss in the game. Traag doesn't actually do much, he just kinda stands around, so you can fight him safely by focusing on the minions. Of course the show-offy aggressive takedown is preferable, but that's difficult like you said. Regardless, the game is days old and quite long, I certainly don't have it memorized yet and I doubt anyone else does. It's not "I have memorized all the enemies that don't attack right away and will dash attack them", that's silly, why would I waste mental energy remembering enemies who aren't threats? It's "dash attack is fast and does good damage and has good cancel options to respond to threats, so it makes sense to use it often, but maybe I'll hang back if I remember or see that an enemy is about to attack". Iconoclast didn't try to tackle those spear ninjas because it was part of a memorized route; I'm sure it just seemed like a good idea at the time.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by hien »

Volteccer_Jack wrote:April's slide doesn't knockdown enemies, knockdown is how you flip those little robots.
Ah, that makes sense.
Is that enough yet? Or do I need to just 1cc the entire game using nothing but Leo's tackle?
Shouldn't be a problem, as effective as it clearly is in your opinion. And out of curiosity I too did some testing with the tackle on that part of the stage again and there certainly is a timing window, with which, if you get used to it, you can hit the bikers more consistently. But seriously, I didn't come up with all this just to offend people that apparently love that tackle a damn lot… It simply came from my experience with it and from what I saw as well when others played the game. And I still stand by what I wrote before. For me it's just an obvious choice between two moves if with one I have to worry about timing and positioning a whole lot more.
If you're talking about this "trade":
Spoiler
Image
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...that's not a trade. Leo kicked a traffic cone. Then Leo got completely punked. Then while Leo was writhing in agony, the traffic cone flew threw the air and hit the enemy.
Haha wow, I admittedly had to laugh about myself a bit, that I obviously missed that. So yeah, that is indeed NOT a good example of the priorities then. :lol: My bad.
I mean first of all Zorax is IMO easily the toughest boss in the game. Traag doesn't actually do much, he just kinda stands around, so you can fight him safely by focusing on the minions. Of course the show-offy aggressive takedown is preferable, but that's difficult like you said. Regardless, the game is days old and quite long, I certainly don't have it memorized yet and I doubt anyone else does. It's not "I have memorized all the enemies that don't attack right away and will dash attack them", that's silly, why would I waste mental energy remembering enemies who aren't threats? It's "dash attack is fast and does good damage and has good cancel options to respond to threats, so it makes sense to use it often, but maybe I'll hang back if I remember or see that an enemy is about to attack". Iconoclast didn't try to tackle those spear ninjas because it was part of a memorized route; I'm sure it just seemed like a good idea at the time.
Well yeah, Zorax is without a doubt the toughest boss. But he also shows what happens, if you have two or three heavy enemies on the screen that have the potential of randomly shooting or doing (armored) tackles, all the while you have no meter left to clear stuff out. The result is that the game can become a clusterfuck where, if you try to react to one thing on the fly, you'll get hit by another (mostly because the evade is not versatile enough). And that can very quickly happen to normal parts of the later stages as well, if you used your meter on the "wrong" enemies beforehand because you didn't know better.
What made me think, that iconoclast knows the stage layouts very well btw. is simply that he is often already correctly lined up with the spawning enemies, which regarding the tackle is not a minor thing since you have to worry much less about the z-axis tracking then. But he also obviously just plays the game a lot better than I do.
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