Tons of references to the old cartoon show and it looks great.
I will say this tho:
Sure, but I feel like this game is really built around the iframes from the roll move. It still does a lot of stupid stuff sometimes, but you do get a fair bit of flexibility with the roll, followup attack, back attack, and shoryuken than you do with the classic games. It feels more freeflowing with Shredder's Revenge, the problem is that there are enemies who inevitably break that and then you're forced to restart your combo. No possibility to keep a chain flowing through an entire stage like SoR4, but the flow does feel temporarily good while you're in it.BrianC wrote:Mark MSX seems to be mostly referring to the SNES version of Turtles in Time. Arcade is quite a different beast with some moves much harder to pull off and way more cheapness compared to the SNES version. The first TMNT AC was also different from the home versions and had a different method for throws. A similar method was used for TMNT: The Manhattan Project on NES. I also feel the Hyperstone Heist does some things better than Turtles in Time SNES (mainly a more reliable dash that is set to manual by default).
Interesting to hear! Thanks for the tip, I'll have to start paying more attention to this stuff.Sumez wrote:Dotemu seems to know either 1. who to utilize or 2. which projects to back, because despite their spotty reputation with emulation releases, their nostalgia sequels seem to have a good thing going. I tried Windjammers 2 a couple of weeks ago and can confirm it's legit.BIL wrote:I didn't realise the calibre of talent (or the smart pairing of specialised mechanic & art teams) behind SOR4. That makes sense... I've no doubt it's an excellent game, just going by the calibre of peeps who vouch for it ITT and elsewhere, but I couldn't help thinking "Where was DotEmu hiding all this talent?" I only really know them for those disastrous standalone emulations of Metal Slug 3 and Shock Troopers (avoid like the plague - go with the superb ACA NeoGeo versions instead), and a just-acceptable PS4 Ys Origin.
Did you quote the wrong post (maybe you meant to quote the one about the flying attack)? In this post, I was referring to the Turtles in Time arcade version, not arcade mode. I was disappointed in the lack of comparison of the other games since the AC TMNT also had armor on bosses, IIRC.it290 wrote:Sure, but I feel like this game is really built around the iframes from the roll move. It still does a lot of stupid stuff sometimes, but you do get a fair bit of flexibility with the roll, followup attack, back attack, and shoryuken than you do with the classic games. It feels more freeflowing with Shredder's Revenge, the problem is that there are enemies who inevitably break that and then you're forced to restart your combo. No possibility to keep a chain flowing through an entire stage like SoR4, but the flow does feel temporarily good while you're in it.BrianC wrote:Mark MSX seems to be mostly referring to the SNES version of Turtles in Time. Arcade is quite a different beast with some moves much harder to pull off and way more cheapness compared to the SNES version. The first TMNT AC was also different from the home versions and had a different method for throws. A similar method was used for TMNT: The Manhattan Project on NES. I also feel the Hyperstone Heist does some things better than Turtles in Time SNES (mainly a more reliable dash that is set to manual by default).
I agree. After watching parts of it I can say that there is a lot of valid criticism that matches my own but this praise for Turtles in Time over SR I definitely don't get. Yeah, it's a fun little game and all but also super basic and simplistic. The game gives you a total overpowered tackle that has massive i-frames and priority, which you can do consecutively, works on every enemy on the ground and which you can instantly follow up with a throw (which then again are op as well since they instant-kill almost every enemy that is throwable and even give you the option to clear the screen with via the "handshake"-variation). Not much sense in doing anything else since there is also so little enemy variation that nothing forces you to. It's also not really that impressive, that a game that has only four bigger enemies on the screen simultanously which also don't really demand different approaches, achieves to be much more managable for the player. You could even argue that hitstun is not too short in SR but rather a bit too long in the SNES game. SR has a lot of problems but it not having enough variation or even less than Turtles in Time (which simply isn't true) is not one of them in my opinion. I'd even say that it's exactly the opposite with them rather striving for too much enemy variation and losing themselves in the process with the super armor/shield approach, which they apparently viewed as the solution but did not exactly know how to balance properly. It's pretty much a dilemma you get yourself into, if you want to have a classic approach without diluting it too much with modern mechanics like the evade on the one hand, but then on the other hand with this approach create situations which are so relient on this tool being much more potent than you want it to be.it290 wrote:Yeah. He's wrong in saying it's worse than Turtles in Time though, this game offers way more options for the player than that.
For the pizza monsters you just use the rising attack (comes out very quickly) when they jump at you and the dive kick immediately afterwards to get to them when they're grounded after the hit. It's I guess inspired by how you countered them in the SNES Turtles in Time. The black ninjas I also found super annoying with them not getting stunned. Using the slide consecutively on them was what worked best for me since they die with only a few hits. They can still be a real pain when they're close to the edge of the screen/get off-screen while throwing stuff at you though.TransatlanticFoe wrote:I found a couple of enemy types to be especially tedious.[…]The cheese aliens, which seem to have a narrow window between being able to attack them and them jumping on you. And the black ninjas, who die quickly but evade then counter almost everything.
Oh right, almost forgot about this. Holes in the ground are also a good example. Sometimes it looks like you're miles away while you'll still fall into them all of a sudden.It also appears very inconsistent as to how wide over the Z axis that you can be hit by stuff, almost like hurtboxes for traps like spikes extend into the Z axis instead of the Y axis. Explosions especially have a very ill-defined contact zone.
Udderdude wrote:Got the drop on 'em.
I agree with this review 100%, it's a great game. I don't even think it 'overstayed its welcome' as some do, although I would prefer it a bit shorter just because a 2hour game is inconvenient to 1cc. Already 1LC'd normal and 1CC'd hard, just need to smooth out some rough edges to get the hard 1LC. Only big complaint I have is I wish we could dash or dodge in 4 directions, Z-axis movement is pretty restricted for some reason.Sumez wrote:Ah, Skykid got a review up! Good times:
https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/sw ... rs-revenge
The running attack works differently depending on your character. If you're Mikey or April, it does half the damage of other characters, knocks enemies far away, and can wallbounce. If you're Leo or Don, it knocks enemies away but not very far, and you're within reach to continue the combo. If you're Raph or Casey, it leaves enemies standing in place and puts them into copious hitstun, making it a powerful offense starter. If you're Splinter, it's an overhead strike that deals 3x the damage of Mikey/April's version, and knocks enemies straight down into a ground bounce at your feet. If you're any character other than Mikey/April/Raph, it's just a straight-up better attack than the evade attack, and if you're one of them then there's a difference of purpose between the two moves.hien wrote:The tackle which comes out of it is crap since it knocks down enemies and most of the time pushes them so far away that your follow-ups won't connect.
Basic attack damage is uniform across all characters. April's basic attack string is faster than Don's so she puts out damage at a quicker pace with it. Don makes up for this with his insane reach, better tackle/slide, and better supers. April's charge attack is pretty bad because it's so stubby, but Don's is enormous and even minimal charge is double damage.TransatlanticFoe wrote:Finished story mode... after swapping to April about halfway through and restarting. I haven't played with anyone other than April and Donatello but the latter... just to slow to avoid getting poked and damage isn't scaled properly because some enemies took ages to take out when April can just quickly smash them.
Divekicks, slides, throws, charge attacks, supers, dodge behind their shield. I can't imagine why you'd ever feel the need to wait for them to attack. The white sword ninjas are a bit better at guarding their backs, but since they always counter after blocking, you can just hit their guard to bait an attack and then punish.TransatlanticFoe wrote:I found a couple of enemy types to be especially tedious. Anything that blocks, so you just have to wait for them to attack, miss and then beat them (bonus points if they counter like those white sword guys).
The black ninjas can't counter while airborne. So you attack them once, they jump, you hit them again before they land. Divekick immediately followed by rising attack is one simple way to achieve that.hien wrote:The black ninjas I also found super annoying with them not getting stunned. Using the slide consecutively on them was what worked best for me since they die with only a few hits. They can still be a real pain when they're close to the edge of the screen/get off-screen while throwing stuff at you though.
Yeah okay dude…Volteccer_Jack wrote:Gonna be real, all the moaning about armor and shields and "balance" makes ya'll sound like scrubs, Shredder's Revenge is really tame IMO. Git gud, etc.
I'm not asking for much more besides that myself btw. Well, i-frames on throws are also a no-brainer. Anyway, a vertical evade would already do wonders I think.Only big complaint I have is I wish we could dash or dodge in 4 directions, Z-axis movement is pretty restricted for some reason.
I got my clear with Leo and beg to differ. The more reliable tracking alone already makes the evade-attack a better option with him imo. The tackle in my experience more frequently misses its target. It also has much more priority against enemy attacks like the Foot's jump kicks and all in all better range, probably not exposing your own hurtbox that much (tried it out again with the bikes in stage 2 which you can't tackle reliably while it's no problem with the evade). I also think (but that may be wrong) that it cancels into the string quicker. But what's even more important: the tackle has lousy vertical range and (mostly?) only hits one enemy at a time. I'm not sure, if it's even possible to hit multiple enemies simultaneously with it. Since it also puts you closer to enemies, you're then more prone to get counter attacks from the other guys you didn't hit. That risk is much lower with the evade attack. Also, the evade is great to bait enemies to then punish them - something you can't do with the dash attack. I haven't played around with other characters too much, so yeah, it might be different for them but it's hard for me to believe that I used it that incorrectly that this alone is the reason I came to the opposite conclusion.Volteccer_Jack wrote:If you're any character other than Mikey/April/Raph, it's just a straight-up better attack than the evade attack
That's a very impressive achievement. It's a bit sad, that it seems nothing in the score or the leaderboards points out, that a run was a 1CC.Udderdude wrote:TMNT 1cc w/ April - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lxcAWJ9BoQ
I want to see a 1lc, but this is pretty good already.
The bosses aren't the problem. It's situations during the stages which are hard to control without having any meter left to insta-kill certain enemies. While meter also being hard to build up in busy situations with you losing it on hits when the bar isn't filled up to 100% yet. And yes, on Normal it's very easy. Or at least you get the impression of it being easy because you take so little damage and nothing really matters. It's on Hard that you realize how often you're actually getting hit, because every single hit really hurts there.XoPachi wrote:I have to agree that Shredder's Revenge is preeetty easy. Some bosses are obnoxiously spammy but that doesnt mean they're hard. They can just take forever and overstay their welcome as they loop rush attacks or play constant keep away with maybe a 2 second window.
I mean...I did say that the bosses aren't hard.hien wrote:
The bosses aren't the problem. It's situations during the stages which are hard to control without having any meter left to insta-kill certain enemies. While meter also being hard to build up in busy situations with you losing it on hits when the bar isn't filled up to 100% yet. And yes, on Normal it's very easy. Or at least you get the impression of it being easy because you take so little damage and nothing really matters. It's on Hard that you realize how often you're actually getting hit, because every single hit really hurts there.
It just sounded to me like that was in response to the complaints and as if those where mainly in regard to the bosses. Sorry if I misunderstood.XoPachi wrote:I mean...I did say that the bosses aren't hard.
I'm not in on all the details, since I bought (and followed) the PC version, but a Neo Geo version is still being worked on. I've seen the developers mention it.Sumez wrote:Wasn't Final Vendetta supposed to be a Neo Geo game? What happened to that?
Here's a gif of Leo's dash attack beating jump kicks, hitting more than one enemy, having decent vertical range, and instantly cancelling into another attack:hien wrote:It also has much more priority against enemy attacks like the Foot's jump kicks and all in all better range, probably not exposing your own hurtbox that much (tried it out again with the bikes in stage 2 which you can't tackle reliably while it's no problem with the evade). I also think (but that may be wrong) that it cancels into the string quicker. But what's even more important: the tackle has lousy vertical range and (mostly?) only hits one enemy at a time. I'm not sure, if it's even possible to hit multiple enemies simultaneously with it.
Easy. Do a dash attack and then cancel into evade the moment your attack makes contact. The dash attack can be cancelled into an evade. The evade attack CANNOT be cancelled into an evade. So the dash attack is the safer move of the two options.Also, the evade is great to bait enemies to then punish them - something you can't do with the dash attack.
That's great and all and I could make a gif too of that glorious moment I finally hit that biker dude with it once. But I could also make a compilation of 99% of other attempts where I failed. Just watch the beginning of stage 7 in iconoclast's 1CC video with the spear Foots. He tries to hit them with a tackle two times and gets counterd out of it twice. Then tries again with an evade attack and at least gets a trade. After which he resorts to attacking them the normal way by using the air slash and slide.Volteccer_Jack wrote:Here's a gif of Leo's dash attack beating jump kicks, hitting more than one enemy, having decent vertical range, and instantly cancelling into another attack:
That's indeed an interesting one I have to check out. There is really some noticable - but sometimes also a peculiar kind of - character variation in the game. The weirdest thing I noticed so far: with the small laser bots which move on the ground and which you have to topple over to be able to do damage to them, you can do that with a slide when playing Leo but can't when using April. She has to do I think air attacks instead and I yet don't understand what kind of properties of the moves lead to differences like these.On the other hand, Don's godlike dash attack is active so long that enemies will suicidally walk into his elbow:
But that's a different situation. If you're in the proximity of an enemy and baited an attack, you won't do a dash attack instead because that'd be too risky. Priority of enemy attacks is just too high for this. And the option you describe is almost the same with the evade attack. Yes, you have to wait for it to cancel into the first hit of the string to be able to do the evade, but since the evade attack doesn't put you that close to enemy groups, you'll easily have that tiny extra bit of time needed. I hardly have seen anyone employ what you describe there.Easy. Do a dash attack and then cancel into evade the moment your attack makes contact.
If anyone wants to have an example of what I meant with the concept of the game falling apart in certain situations, just watch that Captain Zorax-fight in Episode 11. That's pretty much how the later parts of the game in general often play out for the average player, who hasn't memorized most bits of the stages yet and who doesn't manage meter/insta-kills that wisely due to the knowledge of what lies ahead. Even to experienced players, the same can imo happen during the Traag fight, if you miss the rhythm between his attack and the tackles of his underlings.Udderdude wrote:TMNT Leonardo 1cc this time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87m9HF5ipT4
Sigh, I only picked that particular clip because it showed all of those features of the dash attack at once in a very short period of time.hien wrote:That's great and all and I could make a gif too of that glorious moment I finally hit that biker dude with it once. But I could also make a compilation of 99% of other attempts where I failed.
If you're talking about this "trade":Just watch the beginning of stage 7 in iconoclast's 1CC video with the spear Foots. He tries to hit them with a tackle two times and gets counterd out of it twice. Then tries again with an evade attack and at least gets a trade. After which he resorts to attacking them the normal way by using the air slash and slide.
I mean first of all Zorax is IMO easily the toughest boss in the game. Traag doesn't actually do much, he just kinda stands around, so you can fight him safely by focusing on the minions. Of course the show-offy aggressive takedown is preferable, but that's difficult like you said. Regardless, the game is days old and quite long, I certainly don't have it memorized yet and I doubt anyone else does. It's not "I have memorized all the enemies that don't attack right away and will dash attack them", that's silly, why would I waste mental energy remembering enemies who aren't threats? It's "dash attack is fast and does good damage and has good cancel options to respond to threats, so it makes sense to use it often, but maybe I'll hang back if I remember or see that an enemy is about to attack". Iconoclast didn't try to tackle those spear ninjas because it was part of a memorized route; I'm sure it just seemed like a good idea at the time.If anyone wants to have an example of what I meant with the concept of the game falling apart in certain situations, just watch that Captain Zorax-fight in Episode 11. That's pretty much how the later parts of the game in general often play out for the average player, who hasn't memorized most bits of the stages yet and who doesn't manage meter/insta-kills that wisely due to the knowledge what lies ahead. Even to experienced players, the same can imo happen during the Traag fight, if you miss the rhythm between his attack and the tackles of his underlings.
Ah, that makes sense.Volteccer_Jack wrote:April's slide doesn't knockdown enemies, knockdown is how you flip those little robots.
Shouldn't be a problem, as effective as it clearly is in your opinion. And out of curiosity I too did some testing with the tackle on that part of the stage again and there certainly is a timing window, with which, if you get used to it, you can hit the bikers more consistently. But seriously, I didn't come up with all this just to offend people that apparently love that tackle a damn lot… It simply came from my experience with it and from what I saw as well when others played the game. And I still stand by what I wrote before. For me it's just an obvious choice between two moves if with one I have to worry about timing and positioning a whole lot more.Is that enough yet? Or do I need to just 1cc the entire game using nothing but Leo's tackle?
Haha wow, I admittedly had to laugh about myself a bit, that I obviously missed that. So yeah, that is indeed NOT a good example of the priorities then. My bad.If you're talking about this "trade":...that's not a trade. Leo kicked a traffic cone. Then Leo got completely punked. Then while Leo was writhing in agony, the traffic cone flew threw the air and hit the enemy.Spoiler
Well yeah, Zorax is without a doubt the toughest boss. But he also shows what happens, if you have two or three heavy enemies on the screen that have the potential of randomly shooting or doing (armored) tackles, all the while you have no meter left to clear stuff out. The result is that the game can become a clusterfuck where, if you try to react to one thing on the fly, you'll get hit by another (mostly because the evade is not versatile enough). And that can very quickly happen to normal parts of the later stages as well, if you used your meter on the "wrong" enemies beforehand because you didn't know better.I mean first of all Zorax is IMO easily the toughest boss in the game. Traag doesn't actually do much, he just kinda stands around, so you can fight him safely by focusing on the minions. Of course the show-offy aggressive takedown is preferable, but that's difficult like you said. Regardless, the game is days old and quite long, I certainly don't have it memorized yet and I doubt anyone else does. It's not "I have memorized all the enemies that don't attack right away and will dash attack them", that's silly, why would I waste mental energy remembering enemies who aren't threats? It's "dash attack is fast and does good damage and has good cancel options to respond to threats, so it makes sense to use it often, but maybe I'll hang back if I remember or see that an enemy is about to attack". Iconoclast didn't try to tackle those spear ninjas because it was part of a memorized route; I'm sure it just seemed like a good idea at the time.