Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Sumez]

Apologies for spam, but it feels apt to drop the link in this thread as well. Participating in this local arcade 1cc event tomorrow.

http://twitch.tv/the_shed_arcade

Check in on the stream at 1pm CET to see me probably mess up at Rainbow Islands. I've been incredibly inconsistent on my practice runs, so anything can happen, hah.
I'm not too worried about Liquid Kids, DeathSmiles is stupid easy, and Tetris I guess I'll just retry until I get it



Edit: someone injected me playing contra on pc10 instead of another guy playing Gradius. No idea how that happened, but I'm gonna have to talk to the administration
I'm not playing six games lol

[BIL]

Best of luck! Rainbow Islands is a manful undertaking in any situation.

[mycophobia]

good luck gm-ing on demand. play it safe dont stack too high

[Sumez]

Probably a good idea! I'm really bad at remembering that

[copy-paster]

CPS Presents.... MS3 One Life Clear! One of best things I've done.

Worth watching just for the Mission 3 and Crawler bug section, sorry for the cum label because I forgot to turn on the blood. I also showcased the safespot of Rootmars fight, if you duck on that spot you died though.

[BIL]

Congrats bud, that one's a monster! Added to index, will enjoy watching later - besides comparing strategies, MS3 nomisses are always first-rate arcade cinema.

[Marc]

Having a flick through some Evercade stuff over the weekend.
NES 8-Eyes..... that's rough.

[BIL]

I tried quite hard to like 8 Eyes, but I always come away concluding it's a genuinely weak Draculaesque. Of course I expect there to be heavy, punishing risk on my character's moves... but the other side of that equation is enemy design, which it doesn't seem to care about. Lots of weak pecking and damage racing seems to ensue. I keep revisiting it though, the mood is quite special. Who couldn't love the post-battle teatimes? Very FromSoft-esque.

CPS Presents.... MS3 One Life Clear! One of best things I've done.

Worth watching just for the Mission 3 and Crawler bug section, sorry for the cum label because I forgot to turn on the blood. I also showcased the safespot of Rootmars fight, if you duck on that spot you died though.

Holy fuck, I'd no idea you could be that close to the Giant Crawlers when they drop! Safely disposing of those big bastards is always the nerviest bit of an already harrowing sequence for me.

Loved the HMG-only door takedown too - wanted to squeal in terror just watching it. I always batter it down with ~5 grenades, those aggressive Runner-types creep me out.

Excellent idea, conserving the MOBS for the last couple Giants. I could never resist letting rip on the Hopper-type horde - a rare burst of catharsis in a harrowingly tense gauntlet - but they're completely harmless to outrun, and I pay for it with a slower final Giant kill.

Really sharp HMG farmup at the Cocoon boss - I never quite twigged that you could safely crouch-camp at that spot, so in my current run, I escape to the upper-left with less ammo than I'd planned on.

Ah, so that's the Rootmars safespot I heard of. Looks badass, but also scary, like any good safespot. Interesting to hear that ducking kills you... sounds like it was unintended on Nazca's part, unlike the Exit Exploit (guaranteed extra Slug in 2P games). You really sledgehammered the bastard, must've felt good unloading all those grenades on him. I like that you got the Vehicle Bonus too, I'm never in there for more than split-second Exploit dodges, and the occasional Red Bubble-popping shell.

I'd forgotten how militantly STGesque the M4 Snail route was. It's satisfying just watching the Drill Slug mowing through the horde, particularly those clouds of zako flies. You definitely seem to be working with less slowdown than cart/ACA; the "Brain Bugs" cause hella slowdown when they pop, almost like an oldschool SFII KO. Was surprised when the first one gushed like that!

Then again, MS3's not a very slowdown-reliant game - MSX would definitely get trickier, if its chuggier lategame spots - M5 streets, M6 outskirts - were sharpened up likewise. (it always bugs me slightly when people say MSX has no slowdown - it's got quite a bit, decidedly chuggier than MS1/3/4. Though to be sure, it's vastly smoother than MS2's heaving crawl - often while putting massively larger crowds onscreen, too)

[copy-paster]

I'm surprised you didn't mention the part after the first Giant kill, that one had me shat myself

As for Rootmars, your torso is your hitbox that's why I was invulnerable. I overclock MS3 because sometimes the slowdown just eat my input and it makes the game slightly longer. I was surprised when looking at the game length, 43 mins is about same as length of Shin Contra which is nice.

The recent Shmup Slam 4 had Smash TV and Pang-like games showcased and if Slam 5 happens next year, one of games I would submit is MS3 with harder routes instead (underwater, yeti cave, secret base, japanese army) pretty sure it would please crowds and casuals alike.

[BIL]

Oh yeah, I did wonder about the Chaser Onslaught. I'm always afraid of hop-downshotting them, with the small but real risk of one exploding the instant you touch the ground. I figured you were just going balls-out, especially with that heroic door takedown shortly after.

In my runs, unless I've got Enemy Chaser/MOBS, I like to let them pile onto me - it's slower, and looks scary, but I get two benefits. 1: I know exactly when they'll start heating up - they can't until they've touched my character. And 2: I can get in lots of slashes, far more than they can survive. So no matter how big the dogpile, they're locked into a losing game of touch/slash/die, while I can focus 100% on a single location.

This scene is one of my go-to examples for the superiority of zero enemy collision. The designers have such a wider palette of player/enemy interactions. Not that I don't love Contra's icy, surgical action, too, but I think zero collision, ideally paired with dedicated close-range attacks (for player and enemies both) is the way forward for hardcore 2D action.

That safe Giant takedown is huuuge news for me, look at the absolute nightmare I subjected myself to thinking I had to evacuate the vicinity

Player Condition: FML

Spoiler

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ACA Vandyke out tomorrow. Always liked the look of this one. Topdown barbarian slasher from UPL.



Gonna have to road test it, this is a subgenre that can go painfully wrong for me (Ikari III ), even if I dig the styling. But I tend to get along well with UPL's unique brand of excess, so I'm hopeful!

[Udderdude]

I must've tried this, and immediately quit after laughing to death at the guys rolling around in wheels .. that flop about pathetically when hit.

[BIL]

Just gave it a short 20minute MAME. This is definitely what I'd expect of a beefcaek barbarian slasher from UPL! LETHAL EXCESS Dare you face the Necromancer's Hard Gay Horde?



Has a goofy Wardner-esque charm, a love letter to Wizardry from the game centre. More importantly, it plays well, evading the depressing waft and drudge of Ikari III (AC). Player character handles sharply, with simple, effective attack frames, and is kept well away from the incoming upscreen. While the 3:4 res isn't ideal for exploration, the few instances of horizontal panning seemed tolerable - Guevara (AC)'s cardinal screen-riding sin avoided.

Enemies attack and die en masse, the tone more slasher than beater. The flail weapon has a bit of that Ninja Spirit kusarigama goodness - attack, then tilt the stick to lash it about. Not as generous as NS's full 360' lash per quarter-turn, but still plenty of sweep. Seems bombs are the ticket to quick boss kills, good memories of Ninja-kun II.

Quickly learned to one-life the first three stages (no-hits seemed reasonably trickier), 1CCd to stage 4, the lava wonderland seen in Famitsu's preview shots. I do hope that fairy in the second stage points out the boobytrapped chests, or that's gonna be an annoying bit of hard memo. Still, small complaint in the big picture. Will happily pick this up.

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Oho! Out now in JP, liking those earlier releases. At least they feel earlier. I seem to recall it being way past bedtime when they'd pop up, in the past. Anyhoo, following on from the main forum's ACA Thread:

Looks like a fun 2 player game. Watched the stream earlier today.

Code: Select all

 https://youtu.be/i0dtiSPUG1o 

Yeah, was just thinking that the weapon balance would lend itself well to co-op. The flail's coverage is tempting, but its lack of oomph can bite you VS bosses with their HP. I like that they usually have a few alternative pickups to the side, there. I'm mostly stage/flail and boss/bomb. The boomerang seems like it might be a good middle ground. Apparently the sword cancels certain shots, but I don't seem to have encountered any.

Jumping over enemy fire a welcome option. Interested to see the jump is analogue - you get a lot more distance holding the button. You can also chuck bombs a lot further this way, useful VS bosses.

The delay on picking up weapons/food is going to enrage some. Gotta clear out the vicinity before nabbing the loot.

Playing a bit further in, I think stage 4 might be a make/break point for many. Shifts from flatland slashing with a bit of projectile-jumping, to full-on Legend of Valkyrie topdown action/platforming. I dig this sort of stuff, at least in moderate doses, and it seems very fairly designed - but yeah, lots of classic red flags - moving platforms, chiefly. Feels kinda badass rushing it down at speed, but then I'm an FC Gremlins 2 fan.

POSE OR DIE

Spoiler

Hm, right back to hardcore topdown killing after. Feels good man.

EDIT: Oh rad. How 2 Deal w/ Boobytrapped Chests:

Spoiler

Just hop over and hit 'em from the back. Any lurking fiend will miss you, ready for dispatching. Phew, glad that's sorted out. Really cool game, breakneck yet varied. Made it up to st5's boss on a credit, adorable mean buggers. st5+6 seem like 100% hardcore dungeon slashing, I'm hoping st4 was just the big platformer setpiece. It's fun, but not the game (or most topdown slashers') strongest suit.

st4 boss design is faaackin KVLT Aesthetic is pleasantly reminiscent of beloved MD topdown killas UNDEADLINE and Twinkle Tale. 1990 was a comfy year for 2D arcade tech.

EDIT2: Nice, the Flail's input is analogue too. Hold the button for a longer swing, that's a cinch to rotate 360' or even 720'. As always with UPL, there's a lot of consideration under the foot/floor pace and screen overload.

Liking the Boomerang a lot. Piercing, reasonably strong, fast, and the way it alternates between left/right arcs gives it excellent coverage.

[Udderdude]

I tried it again and honestly it's not for me. But I have to agree the boomerang weapon seems pretty useful. The flail only fires in cardinal directions, even when you swing it around, which I found pretty limiting.

[WelshMegalodon]

SMS Shinobi isn't as bad of a port as I thought it was a few years ago, but man, whose brilliant idea was it to have your hitbox change when you attack? And to have you take damage when you bump into enemies?

[BrianC]

Yeah, I still like the SMS Shinobi port, but there are a lot of baffling design decisions. Odd (random?) power ups, ninjutsu earned in bonus rounds, hostages that don't require saving and only act as power ups/bonuses, and no ending.

[pegboy]

I FINALLY cleared Neo Contra with a 100% hit rate using Type A. I still say people massively underrate the difficulty of a no death run in this game. A normal S-Rank clear in the game IS a joke, regardless of type, seeing as how you are basically spotted 2 deaths a level, which is a shit load of leeway.

Originally I was going to use Type B, but the lock on weapons are just too weak (same goes for Type C), and the flame thrower just ends up getting me killed in close range combat more often despite the fact it can cancel bullets. Type A is the best type of the default weapons, but it does have a few drawbacks when going for a 100% run but not as many as the B or C.

You could also use one of the comically overpowered hidden types like D or F, which turn the game into easy mode, but I don't think the game was balanced around any of that stuff, so I stick with one of the default types. Those other, overpowered types I can really only see being fun if you are speed running the game, which might be a fun challenge.

Parts of the game that cause the most pain for a 100% run:

Mission 1 - None really, by far the easiest mission. The bees of the mid boss can kill you with type A if you aren't on top of it though, which HAS happened to me a few times.

Mission 2 -
1) The grey robots in the beginning can be very random and actually have some nasty attacks unless you kill them quickly.
2) Second "death room" with the big laser, canisters being fired everywhere, etc. Kill the turrets as quickly as possible and stay near the center of the room but not in the path of the laser (obviously). Destroying the main target requires some very precise grenade shots such that they bounce though the small opening Luke Skywalker style.

Mission 3 -
1) The sand worm. It can be annoying trying to get 100% kill rate on this guy, basically don't use any lock on weapons until your hit rate is at 39%.
2) Squid mid boss. Very annoying, mostly because of the weird perspective this battle takes place in. His lasers are very random although I think there is a safe spot in this battle in the top middle of the platform. I haven't confirmed it though and didn't really use it in any of my playthroughs as I discovered it a bit later when messing around with the Katana Jaguar.
3) Lucia - By far the most annoying boss, and probably the hardest part in the first 4 levels. Can either be a joke or a massive pain in the ass depending on which attack she uses, the blue being the harder one. She's a small target and moves around a lot, so it can be difficult to damage her and the battle can really drag on.

Mission 4 -
1) The large battleship. Very difficult to get 100% hit rate with type A unless you know exactly which parts to kill in the first few scenes. This is probably the biggest drawback in the entire game with using type A and going for 100% hit.

Mission 5 -
1) The boss is the only real threat in this entire level really, lots of randomness with the first form and very easy to lose focus and take a stray hit. Second form would be a lot harder if not for the damage of the grenade, which can be used at point blank range until he starts to rotate. Then you back off and finish him off with the vulcan, using your spin move to dodge the drones. You do not want this battle to drag on as he uses more and more difficult attacks later.

Mission 6 -
1) Master Contra second form, just a random mess of swords flying around. Your saving grace is that for once, the dash move makes you invulnerable to the swords, unlike most other things in the game.
2) Master Contra big head. Another one of those bosses that is an absolute joke if you get RNG or pretty much a guaranteed death if you don't. Having this asshole so late in the game is VERY frustrating. Run in the direction that the laser/bombs are dropping in and use a dash move at the last possible second to avoid it. Still probably will get killed if you are unlucky.

Mission 7 -
1) Final boss. His most deadly attack bar none is the blue bullet bursts. Again, you are either lucky or not usually with this. The spin move can save you but DO NOT use the dash to try and avoid them, that will almost always resort in death (my first time reaching this part with 100% and I died to this fucking attack). Thankfully, if you time the damage to this guy properly, you can cancel his second barrage of blue bullets which is even worse than the first. The fire attacks may seem impossible to dodge at first but thankfully there are safe spots. The yellow attack is actually fairly easy to dodge, just stay in the middle of the screen and run around it in a circle pattern (easier to see in a video than describe).

That's all off the top of my head, and with tons of runs done, so I can say confidently those are the difficult parts. I still died randomly to shit all the time though, so this one took a lot of grinding to finally get. In the ranks of Contra No Death runs, this one ranks near the top along with Shattered Soldier. I want to say this one is actually harder than SS to no death because there is some borderline unfair shit near the end of the game that can easily be game ruining. I'm sure that is why they lowered the bar for the S-
Rank, as this stuff is almost Gradius 3 crystal stage levels of cheap (ok, that's an exaggeration, but you get the point).

Still, I want to say this is one of the better Contra games made, and somehow the perfect way to bring it into 3 dimensions, even though it isn't "true 3d", it works very well here.

Now where do I go from here? I want to no-death the arcade games, and I do have the PCBs now, so that is probably next although I have an almost sick thought of playing the PS1 games next, which are supposedly wretched.

[BIL]

Congrats! Great writeup too, indexed. It's been way too long for me to comment on Neo in detail... I do remember I one-lifed it around the time I was playing a few tougher-than-average console games (Shinobi NTSCU Super, DMC1 Dante Must Die New Game, Ninja Gaiden Black Master Ninja, plus the old standbys Shattered Soldier no-restarts S-Rank and Gradius V 1-ALL). Thinking back, that little epoch from DMC to DMC3 was like a repeat of the late NES era, when "hard gaming" was trending in the mainstream, and Tecmo would deliberately hype up their games' toughness in the boxes and ads.

I remember Neo being on the easier end of the scale, but wondering how much of the supposed walkover difficulty it got rapped for in reviews/forums was down to the weirder weapon sets I never used. (as Mortificator said, effectively difficulty selects) A substantial game if cheese is foregone, at any rate. Glad you liked it - it's not as ruthlessly purpose-designed as Shin (the instant-win sets and watered-down S-Rank criteria were clearly trying to play to both aisles, pretty well for the most part), but I still think it's got a lot of quality for series diehards.

I don't wanna jinx AC Contra for you with another overly-sunny forecast, but imo it's among the easiest to one-life in the AC/Console series, simply due to 1) the Spreadgun's infamous dominance and 2) its extreme brevity, even by coinop action standards. Super OTOH is (in its Japanese loop) one of the toughest, come to think of it it's the only one of the Japan-developed games I've not no-missed. On my shortlist along with a few other longtime nemeses. Finally getting into From's newer games has made me a tad lazy. (incidentally, the two Otogis, while not as avowedly balls-hard as the aforementioned "Hard Action" games, were two more I was heavily into circa Neo)

Both AC Contras have their bizarre aiming lag to contend with, however - an additional layer of difficulty. It's not as bad as it might seem initially (basically, avoid diagonals while on the ground - it's the slow tracking through the diagonals that causes the lag), but it definitely takes a bit of muscle memory. They don't play very much like the freewheeling run/gunners that started with Umechan Team's landmark Famicom version.

[Sumez]

When Neo Contra came out, it felt tougher to me than Shattered Soldier for sure, but the massive leeway for S ranking also meant I never went as hard into practicing for no-death. So I can't fairly compare them on equal grounds.
Shattered Soldier rewards simple memorizations a lot, making it fairly easy to perfect individual stages (the primary challenge comes from going through an entire run without fucking up), and while Neo never felt as strict, I also thought it was a lot easier to run into a stray bullet somewhere.

[pegboy]

I think part of the difficulty for me is just that I don't play 3rd person 3D type games much either, well pretty much not at all actually. Like the last one I remember was Metal Gear Solid 2 in like 2001 or whenever it came out. Also, I had previous experience with Shattered Soldier and did a dubious s-rank (using continues) back in the day, even if it was 20 years ago I wasn't literally starting from scratch like with Neo. I'm honestly wondering if I just fucking suck at this type of game with how easy people are saying this is.

As far as the arcade Contra games, I have played both of them in the past using mame although it was on a pretty casual level, never tried for a 1CC, let alone no deaths. The controls definitely take time to adjust too and they play very differently coming from the NES games. The thing is those arcade games are extremely short in comparison to the later ones, and honestly a lot of the difficulty, at least for me, is just not fucking up over a long period of time.

As for SS vs Neo, SS does require more precise control and is much more strict with what you can get away with since you have no evasion or dash to speak of. Neo tends to require more improvisation from one run to the next like the Lucia fight and the big head.

[Sumez]

Yeah, Neo is much more centered around twitch reactions, which I guess might have been a response to the heavy criticism SS got from being so memo heavy when it came out.
I think both games are great, but they are quite different approaches to the run'n'gun subgenre, outside of just the changed perspective.

[Blinge]

Ullo Lads

I've been playing some Search Action lately

Wonder Boy: The Dragon's Trap. The DotEmu remake
Man.. it's a fun little game, feel like i'm playing footsies a lot, especially as this little mouse man!

Also switching from the classic graphics to the modern illustration style is crazy to me. I'm switching constantly just because i can.
I wonder if they changed the feel of the game at all, might have to fire up an SMS emulator to have a look

[Herr Schatten]

I wonder if they changed the feel of the game at all, might have to fire up an SMS emulator to have a look

I think I read somewhere that they reverse-engineered the original game to the point that, mechanically, it's the original engine that's running underneath. The graphics, both original and new, are just a layer on top. I really like the dedication. Those guys show that they care a lot about the original, unlike those who butchered the recent Alex Kidd remake.

[Sumez]

On the flipside, the fact that the remake mimicks the original mechanics exactly was the reason I didn't care about it at all.
If you haven't played the game before, I guess it's fine, but I already have three different versions of that game.

I don't think it's bad to redesign a game entirely for a remake if it makes for a fresh experience.

[Blinge]

For most nostalgia buyers that isn't a problem.

nostalgia is an odd one, i can't get nostalgic over the N64 Zeldas for instance.. because if i ever wanted to play them, i would.. I'd keep a copy, or the ability to play somehow.
Most people probably aren't like that, big fucking nerds like us devoting any significant amount of space to dusty ol' consoles and games.

[Blinge]

Big Sumez have you ever tried doing the underground section as the Mouse-man before you unlock Lion-Man?

[Sumez]

It's been like well over a decade since I last touched the game, but I'm pretty sure I only ever played it "as intended".

[Blinge]

I might give it a go on a new file maybe.
although i think crystal gear is pretty much required as mousey can go down in 3 hits or less in that area

[pegboy]

So I made the mistake of finally playing Contra: Legacy of War. What the fuck did I just watch? It's so bad it's almost fun in a schlocky way, I'm oddly drawn to continue playing it for some fucking reason. The game is pretty hard though, mostly because of terrible controls, so I'm not sure I want to commit a lot of time to it.

There's no way in fucking hell I would attempt a no death run on this though, as it's very long and the cheap deaths are plentiful. You can really see what happens when you throw out your experienced Japanese developers for a bunch of goof balls.

[Sumez]

You're taking your Contra crusade a little too far here

What about Contra ReBirth or Operation C instead? Played any of those?
And Contra 4, that one is really good.

[BIL]

On the subject of arcade Contras - have you played Ninja Spirit aka Saigo no Nindou, pegboy? (latter rev is preferable imo; slightly meaner on checkpoints+powerups, but more memorable for that) Basically a game's worth of Contra III Hard's st1 streets / st6 hive. The only other sidescroller I know of to command this level of volatility is Daimakaimura, both permanently residing in my Desert Island top ten.

(this said: Saigo's popular image of nonstop RNG chaos is not only inaccurate, but dangerous - enemies will spawn at unpredictable times/places, but their behaviour is carved in granite. you're not dealing with pure chaos, but rather, a constantly-shifting array of set parts. experts will know at a glance exactly how to dominate any given slate; as with Dai, the game's immortal intensity is in devising and executing these solutions on the fly.

Go between life and death without getting killed, as the lady implored. )

Mentioning Saigo as, with the relatively freewheeling controls, it plays a lot more like the console Contras than that series' own arcade entries. There actually is a bit of aim lag on its shuriken, which track through their diagonals much like Contra's guns. But they're just one of four choices, and frankly, they're the lesser of the two projectile options (you have a pair of blades, and a pair of shots, very much a major/minor apiece). Just like Dai, while you technically can't "run and gun," the bunnyhopping/downshotting fury is unmistakably akin to Konami's landmark.

These fuckin lousy pricks think they can outgun ME?!

Spoiler

I don't need barbarian gunpowder to dispatch these shitbirds to the grave

Spoiler

Has an unfortunate caveat in its infamous Ninja Pit - I implore any newcomers, use this to fumigate the bastard. It's especially unfortunate as, while its kusoge rote will brickwall in the short term, it's downright zen compared to the raging fury of Saigo's other 99%, once memorised. (last boss is evil) I was writing a full game primer earlier this year, gonna finish it off in September.

(other reason Saigo's on my mind, is a bump in the main forum reminding me of this picture-perfect steel chair shot to the HG101 babyfaces, RE Saigo weapon balance Yeah, keep booing, chumps! I may be an asshole But those who follow such shitty advice will be... dead assholes! )

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Sunset Riders, Mystic Warriors and (AFAIK) Moo Mesa also factor into this discussion - haven't played the last, but the former two are most definitely "more Contra than Contra" in Konami's arcade canon. These days I consider Sunset the other Contra III, being directed by the chronically underrated Hideyuki Tsujimoto, of AC Super Contra. As relevant to Konami run/gunning as the (justifiably) lauded Shigeharu Umezaki and Nobuya Nakazato.

Apologies if most or all of the above is old news, it's always hard to tell with such a vast yet easily-accessible canon nowadays.