Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[FinalBaton]

"Fight Mega Man! For Everlasting Justice!"

I dunno, I think the Mega Man endings are better than 90% of NES endings out there. You've got graphics exclusive to the ending and you have the credits themselves. Lots of games just give you a "THE END" text and nothing else

[soprano1]

Sure, but it doesn't make it any less funnier.

[Squire Grooktook]

It's everlasting peace iirc

[soprano1]

It's everlasting peace iirc

Christ, you are right. I'm getting old.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Something I forgot to post before, and just now remembered: there's no credits screen whatsoever in Crude Buster. It's a shame, I always like to see the credits roll to see who made the game, even if they are aliases/silly nicknames.

Don't know if it was just company policy, or if they just didn't care to put it in, but once again, a shame -- the devs certainly deserve credit for a game/port well done.

Yeah, it's a chronic annoyance with Japanese games in the 8/16-bit eras. In one case, The Super Shinobi, the Western release actually cuts out the perfectly good JP staff roll (which also screws with the ending BGM's timing).

Even as a little kid, I instinctively thought the NES NG trilogy's extensive, visually striking staff rolls were really cool - looking back, they're remarkably professional compared to the norm. Conversely the worst offender I can think of is Castlevania's silly gag roll (a Japanese game from the 80s referencing all those classic Universal movie stars is undeniably cute, but yeah... would rather know who to credit!).

Hey could be worse. Shinobi on the SMS just dumps you straight to GAME OVER!

[Vanguard]

It supposedly does, with weapon choice affecting it - but personally I never use anything but S+R (outside of deliberate challenge runs), so I've never noticed it much. S+R dominates the rest of the set to an obscene degree, which is objectively not good... but my attitude to these things is, I don't mind a dominant weapon as long as it's a satisfying one. And S+R is a fucking legendarily satisfying take on the classic Toaplan vulcan principle. Inescapable screen-blanketing death that also pointblanks bosses like a brick through a pane of glass.

The unbalanced weapons are a good thing. There's a nice sense of danger that comes from knowing that a hit will not only cost a life, but will also greatly diminish your ability to prevent future deaths. When you do lose it, there's a nice feeling of vulnerability instead. I don't think you'd get the same feeling of vulnerability if Contra didn't have any special weapons, even though it's not particularly difficult without them, but it feels vulnerable because you get a spreadshot very early in the game, and it becomes your default state. That first hit feels as fatal as the last.

The player's overwhelming firepower is a big part of why I consider Contra 1 the best in the series. None of the weapons in Contra 1 are bad. Even the default gun is capable of dealing with anything the game throws at you, and is powerful enough to point blank bosses in seconds. Contra 3 is nice and brisk with C+C, but boss fights become painfully long with the default machine gun. I think this make's Contra's recoveries far more enjoyable than eg. Gradius because your mistakes can leave you severely weakened, but never crippled. In a lot of ways the spreadshot is like the phoenix teleport in Alien Soldier, POW mode in The Revenge of Shinobi, or the sword beam in early Zelda - a sort of super mode that rewards good performance with overwhelming firepower, but even at their worst your character is perfectly capable. The fact that every gun is viable despite unbalance also makes weapon-based challenge runs fun and worthwhile.

Perfect balance between weapons/characters is a false god.

[BIL]

POW mode in The Revenge of Shinobi

Excellent comparison. On a purely stylistic level, your character dying outright in Contra has a much nastier run-terminating effect than in ROS, where a hit merely knocks the wind out of your avatar. But I've always considered ROS, Shinobi III and the similarly POW-driven Alien Soldier and Vampire Killer to evolve into one-hit killers at master level.

Perfect balance between weapons/characters is a false god.

Weapons I can agree (if the choice is between a single legendary face-shredder and a bunch of unsatisfying yet balanced popguns), but not characters - I always want there to be a compelling spread of tradeoffs. TNWA's missing of the mark with the would-be trickster, in-practice Super God Tier Kamaitachi will always chafe me a bit. Ninja and Kunoichi more than make up for it, to the point I probably wouldn't detect anything amiss if they'd been the only two characters period... but it clangs hard when the third character turns the game into a free ride.

That said, this is the worst-case scenario. I don't mind as much if that dominance comes from somewhere interesting, ie a high risk/high reward character who can blow away the rest in expert hands.

[__SKYe]

Yeah, it's a chronic annoyance with Japanese games in the 8/16-bit eras. In one case, The Super Shinobi, the Western release actually cuts out the perfectly good JP staff roll (which also screws with the ending BGM's timing).

Even as a little kid, I instinctively thought the NES NG trilogy's extensive, visually striking staff rolls were really cool - looking back, they're remarkably professional compared to the norm. Conversely the worst offender I can think of is Castlevania's silly gag roll (a Japanese game from the 80s referencing all those classic Universal movie stars is undeniably cute, but yeah... would rather know who to credit!).

Yeah, CV's staff roll is pretty unique in that regard, but even then, it is beter than no credits roll at all.

I always enjoy fancier credits roll, like in NG or, like FinalBaton wrote, in MegaMan (with the boss showcase), but I also enjoy just a standard one, even if they don't have the actual devs' names, but rather some (now) iconic alias -- the first that came to mind when I posted before, was Capcom games' "Yuukichan's Papa".
Granted, such aliases mean that the dev's actual name remains unknown, but no kid back in the day would know who those people were, even if their proper name was in the staff roll. It's more recognizing their names/aliases in multiple games, that make you go "Ha, X person worked in this game as well. No wonder it's so good/bad/etc".

Besides, credit rolls are like the victory lap after a hard earned clear.

...but not characters - I always want there to be a compelling spread of tradeoffs. TNWA's missing of the mark with the would-be trickster, in-practice Super God Tier Kamaitachi will always chafe me a bit. Ninja and Kunoichi more than make up for it, to the point I probably wouldn't detect anything amiss if they'd been the only two characters period... but it clangs hard when the third character turns the game into a free ride.

I agree with you here, but wouldn't mind if the opposite was true -- ie. one character made it harder to clear the game.
Of course, I'm not saying they should just have some crappy abilities and/or much less HP and attack power, but rather somewhere in between, where it would still be fun to play and be doable without requiring some sort of boring, repetitive behaviour, but still making a run harder, by how the character interacts with the enemies (perhaps by having a different skillset that requires approaching enemies in a different way, that rewards/requires expert play, but is extra punishable in case of failure).

Of course, this would require that the game be balanced for the stronger characters, with the weaker one being the odd one, otherwise you'd end up with the standard characters being Kamaitachi and the weaker being Ninja/Kunoichi.

Some examples of the top of my head would be Shubibinman Zero's characters (trading short range but very powerful Shoryuken for long range but weaker Hadouken)and Spiritia vs Grolla in Rosenkreuzstilette (basically X vs Zero: Spiritia has long-range attack and more HP but does less damage, while Grolla has short range, does big damage but takes more damage as well).

Another example, which I think would be cool (and given that is has been discussed again recently), is if Ninja 5-O had a mode to play without the shurikens/long-range attacks -- granted, you can impose this for yourself, and it isn't a multiple character situation, but it makes the game quite different to play for someone who's used to the long-range attacks.
To sum it up, making the characters themselves a part of the difficulty setting, rather than just a standard Easy/Normal/Hard mode in the Options menu.

[Vanguard]

Weapons I can agree (if the choice is between a single legendary face-shredder and a bunch of unsatisfying yet balanced popguns), but not characters - I always want there to be a compelling spread of tradeoffs. TNWA's missing of the mark with the would-be trickster, in-practice Super God Tier Kamaitachi will always chafe me a bit. Ninja and Kunoichi more than make up for it, to the point I probably wouldn't detect anything amiss if they'd been the only two characters period... but it clangs hard when the third character turns the game into a free ride.

That said, this is the worst-case scenario. I don't mind as much if that dominance comes from somewhere interesting, ie a high risk/high reward character who can blow away the rest in expert hands.

I'm not saying that balance doesn't matter or that uneven balance is always better than even balance, I'm saying that even balance and good balance are two different things. I haven't given TNWA nearly the attention it deserves, but my mostly ignorant opinion is that Kamaitachi is too strong relative to the enemies to provide an enduring challenge and he isn't terribly interesting to use (iirc his crouching poke has so much reach that it can clear most of the game on its own). Both of those are far more serious problems than him being stronger than Ninja and Kunoichi. As an example of an overpowered character done right, Maria from Rondo of Blood is far stronger and easier than Richter, her super agile moveset feels great to control and she can approach levels so differently from how Richter does that it's almost like getting two games in one. Not really challenging, but still very enjoyable and a great addition to the game.

My favorite example for good uneven balance in weapons is Contra, and for characters it's Cadash. Its character select screen is pretty much also its difficulty selection screen, but the different characters still have things that make them stand out and they give you something new to work for after you clear the game with the easy characters.

[Sumez]

Maria in Rondo is a great example of how to do a fun "easy mode". The western version's "Normal mode" in Mega Man 2 is a terrible example.

[BIL]

I agree with you here, but wouldn't mind if the opposite was true -- ie. one character made it harder to clear the game.
Of course, I'm not saying they should just have some crappy abilities and/or much less HP and attack power, but rather somewhere in between, where it would still be fun to play and be doable without requiring some sort of boring, repetitive behaviour, but still making a run harder, by how the character interacts with the enemies (perhaps by having a different skillset that requires approaching enemies in a different way, that rewards/requires expert play, but is extra punishable in case of failure).

This brings to mind one of my favourite character archetypes, the Glass Cannon – see COTM’s Magician Mode, especially when armed with the Mars/Unicorn sword (a weapon so damn good, it could easily support an entire game), and especially single-sessioned with a casual time limit of 2hrs or so. I love pointblanking the shit out of everything, knowing if I mess up VS the nastier enemies it’s gonna be an embarrassing limp to the restore room at best, and outright death at worst.

(Metroidvanias get a lot of flack with their "set ur own difficulty" ethos, but COTM Magician is one case where it worked out pretty great imo! here's a complete save file for anyone interested - unlocking all the classes is a bit of a chore otherwise)

I'm not saying that balance doesn't matter or that uneven balance is always better than even balance, I'm saying that even balance and good balance are two different things.

Oh yeah, absolutely. Was half out the door earlier, but this is what I meant by preferring a rad shredder over a bunch of Euroshmuppy peashooters (not that the original Contra’s other weapons are anywhere near Euroshmup-bad in their own rights - just absolutely outclassed by the unstoppable firehose of death that is S+R).

I haven't given TNWA nearly the attention it deserves, but my mostly ignorant opinion is that Kamaitachi is too strong relative to the enemies to provide an enduring challenge and he isn't terribly interesting to use (iirc his crouching poke has so much reach that it can clear most of the game on its own). Both of those are far more serious problems than him being stronger than Ninja and Kunoichi.

Pretty much, yeah – he can just leisurely poke his way through the game, while the other two have to continually engage with the crowd via carefully-executed strikes and grabs. It is indeed his boring ease of use that's the issue, not so much his power in itself.

(not to say Kamaitachi isn't worth at least one clear, and I like to mess around with him occasionally - he contributes his own share of weird, useful mechanics, and if a skilled player really wanted to, they could probably restrict themselves appropriately. TNWA is less "2 out of 3" than "2.5 out of 3")

As an example of an overpowered character done right, Maria from Rondo of Blood is far stronger and easier than Richter, her super agile moveset feels great to control and she can approach levels so differently from how Richter does that it's almost like getting two games in one. Not really challenging, but still very enjoyable and a great addition to the game.

I wanted to mention Maria specifically – I *think* (been a while) she also takes more damage than Richter? I remember finally trying her out last time, after years of (foolishly!) taking casuals at their word that she was a training wheels character. Far from that, I thought she was for the most part an excellent “superhuman” counterpart to Richter’s traditionally semi-realistic handling. You can do lots of ridiculously audacious stuff, but if you miss a step you’ll get splattered. As mentioned earlier, I’m a big fan of glass cannon characters… CVIII’s Grant is a very similar case.

[Sumez]

COTM's magician mode is one of the best inventions of the metroidvania-era Castlevania games. Holy crap the game opened up to me when I discovered how much fun the additional unlockable classes were.

I wouldn't call Maria a glass canon though. She makes the game very easy - she's legit easy mode.

[BIL]

Yeah, I'm sure you're right - been a good couple of years. Mainly I just remember being pleasantly surprised that her mobility and attacks lent themselves so well to showoff play, rather than her being the dull "win button" I'd read about. I like getting all up in they grill.

Spoiler

CVIII's Grant is more evenly balanced with the rest of the cast. Rockman jump control might seem a priceless favour, but you'll need that mobility to connect with his dagger (and frequently to escape after doing so). And despite the near-nil reach and low DEF, he's also the game's fastest melee killer, which of course leads to much high-risk/high-yield stabbing! Axe Armours are a prime target - don't hide like a weenie, get in close and jam your knife in their fuckin ballsack, repeatedly. Brought crashing down in seconds. Dullahans and whip skeletons, OTOH, will brutalise him with their reach and need more of an air-to-ground approach.

I love CVIII Grant. The traditional series' ninja character, basically. For the love of god, not to be confused with Akumajou Densetsu's Grant, who is a boring, safe, peashooting sniper.

[Stevens]

Alien Syndrome (arc)

I know it isn't a side scroller, but imho it belongs here.

Stylistically it is easy to prefer it's ps2 remake. It's got the Aliens theme in spades and is a fun game in its own right. But for straight ,tense as fuck, white knuckle action? I prefer the original. The remake has a tacked on scoring system that feels unnecessary.

The constant enemies combined with levels that are just the right size are good, but the timer is what really ties it all together. Do I grab those extra hostages, or do I need to head to the boss right fucking now? If you die it is an easy decision, but there is a massive score increase in hostages if you've no missed making it tempting to hang around longer. While there is a map in level that shows hostage locations initially it stops working once you open the exit which makes an efficient route mandatory for high scores.

It's a superb action game.

[BIL]

Alien Syndrome (arc)

I know it isn't a side scroller, but imho it belongs here.

Don't worry, beltscrolling and topdown action have been on-topic since August. This is officially R2RKMF (that's "Run To The Right Killing Motherfuckers") mark II. ;3

I should get around to writing a table of contents for R2RKMF mkI, but it's a bitch! And I like the thread's part-archival, part-conversational style, so eh.

Was checking out the FC port of Alien Syndrome recently, on dingsbum's recommendation. Pretty good stuff - it's a little easy-going on raw survival (didn't take long to start going for the 1LC), but it maintains a constant simmering pressure throughout, particularly from stage 3 where the aliens will really start going after you, and the time limit leaves precious little room for inefficiency. Favourite stage was 5, whose floor-erupting aliens make up for their lack of projectiles with a decidedly horrid enthusiasm to pursue.

Some neat boss designs too, especially the part dolorous, part ANGREHH King Core:

Spoiler

[__SKYe]

Have only some mild experience with the Arcade version, but you should also try the SMS port. It is almost a different game, trading the open-level style of the original with flip-screen gameplay.
I believe you also have to rescue all the prisioners in the SMS port before being able to fight the boss.

The arcade game character's death scream is awesome, though.

PS: And unlike what the HG101 article would have you believe, in the SMS port enemies won't suddenly spawn under you, killing you cheaply -- they will spawn and blink for a fair amount of time, before actually start moving around (and potentially killing you).
I believe you can't shoot them when they're blinking either, so you have to wait for them to properly spawn before killing them. <- Confirmed.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think you might like the arcade version BIL, if you like the nes version.

IIRC tightens things up with faster move speed and tighter challenege.

There are some unique bosses present in each version, though the arcade version probably has the busiest fights.

[mycophobia]

I should pick Alien Syndrome back up sometime. I was only ever able to get to stage 5 where shit starts getting real with the super fast enemies.

[drauch]

Love Alien Syndrome. I've only played around with the arcade/NES, so I'll give the SMS version a shot. Wish there were more top down survival/rescue mission-type stuff! Might have been interesting to see it added to The Firemen to put even more pressure on you for being fast and precise while keeping your eyes open for lowly civilians at the same time. Or maybe not. Just a thought!

Any fans of Zombies Ate My Neighbors? Some definite influence from Alien Syndrome and a similar format, although it lacks the frequent bosses. But it keeps you on your toes throughout, as the enemies get more persistent in killing you and killing the innocents, so you've gotta be on your toes at all time, with zombies spawning left and right like the Contra runners. Love the quick weapon-cycling and knowing your foes and what is most effective for what, like the seemingly useless fire extinguisher until you come across blobs, or quick-changing to the weed-eater to trim your way through the prickly mess. And it certainly helps with all the horror references, like Body Snatchers, Tremors, Matango, etc.

Probably a bit on the longer side, though, so it kinda omits quick playthroughs as it even adds a password system down the road if desired, so that's a bit of a bummer. It's a favorite, but due to its length I don't go back to it as frequently.

[Imhotep]

I like the way Alien Syndrome structures it's levels loosely via an open playfield, hostages and time limit; this results in a tight 'exploratory action game'.

I've cleared the arcade version on one credit some time ago; it's an indefinitely looping game, though subsequent loops only get marginally harder, with the maybe important exception of level six. Three lives and no extends mean little room for error, though.

"THE TIMEBOMB IS SET!"

[Mero]

There is extends in the game, but I don't know how to trigger it (you get them from them holes in the wall that give bonus points).

[Sumez]

Zombies Ate My Neighbours is a fun gimmick game, but I could never enjoy it. Instead of tightly packed action design, it has thousands of huge levels padded out with boring filler, and the fun weapons are marred by the limited ammunition, expecting you to stock up for future stages, rather than just being balanced to the stage you are currently on.
It's especially a bother that you pretty much have to play through the full (extremely long) game in a single session, since the enemies quickly start getting a lot stronger, matching your arsenal. But if you use a password, you will always start with a pea shooter that's completely useless on the later stages. And by that I don't mean added challenge, I mean boring bullet sponge fights.

[drauch]

Oh yeah, completely agree. It'd be a much stronger title if it adhered more to an arcade format; or, at least maybe changed how it saves, like through a battery backup, because starting off at a password is more of a hindrance than a blessing. There's some identity crisis here, certainly, and while it does draw influence and encourage an arcadey-action playstyle, its length says otherwise.

I kind of enjoy the limited ammunition so you don't abuse certain things (namely the cross), but the levels are typically designed with pickups in mind for what you need to deal with in particular to each level.

I'd say much of my appreciation is in regards to thematics and presentation, a flaw of my very own!

[Stevens]

SMS port.

I have it legit for the SMS. It's ok imo, but I'd rather play the arcqade or PS 2 port. Think I got to stage five or six back in the day.

I should pick Alien Syndrome back up sometime. I was only ever able to get to stage 5 where shit starts getting real with the super fast enemies.

Only took me a few credits to get to five. I think I can 1 CC it:D

There is extends in the game, but I don't know how to trigger it (you get them from them holes in the wall that give bonu ,./s points).

I want to say there is one at 200,000 points.

[FinalBaton]

Agreed with Stevens and Imhotep. Alien Syndrome(arcade) is a superb action game. BIL, you've GOTTA try the arcade version(and then from there, explore the ports. It's one of those where the arcade version is better). I'm sure you'll love the heck outta it.

Apparently the Game Gear port is quite good.

This Alien Syndrome review by Kim Justice is a must-watch(Kim is one of the only Youtubers whose input on gameplay I'm interested in hearing. Excellent critical sense for the vast majority of the time)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QL0o-mEmEc

While we're at it, here's Kim's El Viento review(it falls straight in line with what BIL and drauch said of the game)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZvhfSnezPE

[__SKYe]

I have it legit for the SMS. It's ok imo, but I'd rather play the arcqade or PS 2 port. Think I got to stage five or six back in the day.

True, the arcade original is superior and honestly more fun, just thought I'd mention the SMS port because it is not just a downgrade of the original, and worth a try, at least.

Haven't played the PS2 remake, though.

[BIL]

IIRC Alien Syndrome eventually got a console port in the PS3/360 generation... unless my mind's playing tricks on me (likely! cold and drunk!). Consider it bumped way up the list in any case

Incidentally have you guys played Quartet? The two games' jumpsuited space-hunter main characters (and, again IIRC, same hardware + release era) always reminded me of one another. Sidescroller that's not among my absolute favourites, but certainly has a no-nonsense appeal. I need to spend more time on it actually, it's been a while. Got M2's usual phenomenal treatment on PS2, sharing a disc with weirdo trackball/mouse shooter SDI. I wish Alien Syndrome would've made it onto the disc, although SDI certainly has novelty going for it. Guess the earlier AGES remake of Alien Syndrome might've steered them away... they really grabbed hold of Space Harrier II with both hands and used it to justify their definitive SH1 port, haha.

While we're at it, here's Kim's El Viento review(it falls straight in line with what BIL and drauch said of the game)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZvhfSnezPE

Aw sheeit, Granada intro BGM Advance "GRANADA" in the intro This seems like a man of interest!

[drauch]

IIRC Alien Syndrome eventually got a console port in the PS3/360 generation

Yeah, through the Sonic's Ultimate Collection or whatever.

[BIL]

Aha, that's the one I was remembering. I think Shinobi (AC) is on there too. And sure enough, it's on my crusty ol' 360 get list which I last gave serious attention like four years ago. Right around the time FC collecting bit me on the ass and wouldn't let go! Prioritise the ancient cardboard over the dull but reliably durable Amaray cases, I thought. I pray to god and Jesus I was right! D: (pretty sure I was but who fuckin knows in this tragic era!)

EDIT: great video, Baton. Was getting me all fired up at the end, haha. The world would indeed be a poorer place without mad fuckers like Wolfteam...

[FinalBaton]

Yep! I also thought that was a really cool take at the end there.

Wolfteam is like that one eccentric, crazy friend we have. He/she certainly doesn't lead the most balanced life, but goddamit are we happy to have him/her around. His/her crazy antics and outside-the-box thinking will many times surprise us and provide us with memorable moments, as well as being unique and a breath of fresh air. Sometimes he/she'll annoy us big time though. But that's okay.