Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

I swear this game feels like the Naomi Makaimura that never was. Image I wish they'd have Fujiwara and co. do another Top Secret.

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Lander wrote:
BIL wrote:It just occurred to me - is GNGR's turtle village redux the series' first daylight setting? :o (have only played OG/Dai/Chou). It looks daaamn good, in any case - my favourite scene since the gorgeously overgrown Kamaitachi forest, whose trees are visibly on the brink of tearing free in the wicked gale.

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Somehow never twigged that the antlion's nest was meant to reflect the desolation further downslope. Turning the entire place into a desert is a legit aesthetic upgrade, imo.
Exactly where I am at the moment- developing a knit-one-perl-one strategy for the boulder pile, and battling against the finely designed push-pull wind sequence that almost feels like a wilful inversion of the Kamitaichi setup with its constant challenges from the rear.

And I don't remember any day sequences in Goku. Speaking of, the persistent weapon setup in this is prompting some nostalgia for that game; cases where you'll hit a specific challenge and consider traveling to a previous stage to fetch a different weapon from a known drop, just without the easy fast-travel-to-banner setup.
Something I've found really interesting aesthetically, is the defeated enemies' explosions. On one hand, they exude apt violence - red/orange outbursts, evoking fire and blood - but on the other, they have a charming painterly aspect; like watercolour flowers blooming out of a dark core, disintegrating into denatured flecks. It feels less like simply blowing something up, more an elemental sense of reducing evil critters to the ink they were spawned from.

DEVILS WIND.wav ~or~ A Birb Crossing The Desert.mp3
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Or in the Arremer's and Magician's case, like you've blasted the vital essence right out of the bastards, as they fade off this mortal page. Image

Shuffle off, POUSYBOI (`w´メ)
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The ink-on-paper aesthetic isn't as overt as something like Okami, but I find it very nearly as enjoyable - especially with the bubblewrap-satisfying SFX and airlock-tight collision!

PRECISIONNERZ.ape (■`w´■)
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It's also just a nice consistent visual ethos; reminds me of oldschool Dracula's uniform "enemy out" flames; particularly the swirling blue fire that wreaths Vampire Killer's destroyed fiends, like the animating evil burning away as its puppet collapses.

FRENZY NIGHT.ogg
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Wasn't at all expecting this degree of aesthetic TLC, though I definitely started suspecting it when Sumez mentioned Whoopee Camp's name had been dusted off for this outing. I only dabbled in the Tombis, but they always felt every bit as carefully hand-made as Fujiwara's legendary 80s output, despite the fundamentally different venue.

I will meditate and then destroy u (`w´メ)
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BrianC
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BrianC »

BIL wrote:I swear this game feels like the Naomi Makaimura that never was. Image I wish they'd have Fujiwara and co. do another Top Secret.
Me too. He also did Konami's Roc 'n Rope before he moved to Capcom. I read that he meant Bionic Commando/Top Secret to be an expanded version of that game (which it kind of is). Art style of Roc 'n Rope reminds me a lot of Higemaru, no surprise since the same people worked on it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Man, I knew about the Roc n' Rope / Almana no Kiseki mechanics connection, but somehow not that. :o Reminds me of Piston Nishiyama directing Spartan X at IREM, then Street Fighter at Capcom. That early 80s period when these legendary designers were still bouncing around major labels always brings up interesting connections like that.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Lander wrote:To follow from BIL's point, I probably wouldn't love DMC3 like I do (or at all :)) if I'd forced myself to clear Dante Must Die (/ Very Hard, to sidestep the argument muddle caused by exclusive enemy DT mechanics) before dropping down to see the encounter changes on lower modes.
Going for retroactive completionism in those Capcom / Platinum games tends to work out pretty dull versus building yourself up gradually, since you've seen it all and are overqualified by the time you go back to fill out the ranking table.
Just to be clear, my main argument for Legend mode isn't so much the changes in difficulty as it's the abundance of checkpoints that pop up even one notch beneath Legend. They completely change the flow of the game and the impact of many of the encounters on the stages. And there's a couple of stages later on where I think the original distribution of checkpoints is quite essential to the impression they leave with the player...

Though dropping to Knight from a Legend playthrough might not give you those extra checkpoints? (Banners of Rebirth) In which case it would be a pretty sound approach. That would actually mean the only difference is the extra hit point.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

Sumez, you don't have to use Banners of Rebirth at all on Knight. If you mash the button after dying, you will automatically be sent back to the last Progress Pennant rather than the Banner of Rebirth.

So all Knight really does is give you that extra hit point and unlock the option to manually select Banner of Rebirth checkpoints. You might still not prefer that, but the lukewarm reception Resurrection received indicates journos and some gamers still felt the game was too hard. Even with the Banners of Rebirth. :?
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I really do think Resurrection strikes a good balance of difficulty and customization. Choosing to respawn at a rebirth banner is a decision you make as a player. I don't have a problem with that, because I think the game is hard enough that some people just won't be able to hack it on Legend. I was pissed off with the overly generous checkpoints in the recent Mega Man Zero Collection because of my own opinion that the Zero games (particularly 2-4) are not hard enough to justify the complete butchering of MMZ's Rank system. The fact that deaths weren't counted using the new checkpoint system and an automatic top score was awarded for deaths no matter how many times you died was the bullshit cherry on top. But MM Zero is definitely a console game with console sensibilities. It has Cyber Elves, weapon upgrading, health pickups, farming for resources... All these ways you can make the game easier within the game's systems. GnG Resurrection on Legend keeps the gameplay mostly arcade pure and you have to go into the settings/difficulty to tweak the challenge down if you want to. I mean, magic helps for sure but Bees are limited and the amount you can get gated by the number of levels you've reached.
The OST to Resurrection is magnificent btw. Gets better every time I hear it. Every stage theme is memorable. Not even the classic games can all boast the same.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

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Man, Turtles ain't got shit on Fennecs for perimeter defence. :shock: Little bastards really don't want you getting into their clock tower. Well-timed blast of Frog magic breaks the onslaught nicely. The pots n' pans clattering sound they make is adorable. Image I wonder if that's a Japanese folklore thing, like the Kamaitachis?

Made it to Zone 3 / Mephisto's Grotto, and quickly decided it wasn't something I could appreciate while listening to a fairly intense podcast. So many components overlaid onto its perilously pit-strewn terrain! A Demon's Blazon torchlight mechanic, multiple aggressive zako types, stray shots liable to plunge the area into deadly dark... plus a Supermage, and a friggin Arremer. It all works together sublimely well, and I didn't want to just bruteforce through while half-attentive.

So I decided to start up a new file, and check out Knight. Almost did a spit-take when I took a bump only to realise Arthur still had his chestpiece and gorget, thought it was a bug. :lol:

I think the thing about GNGR is, unlike many first-class console productions that could go into a cab with only minor tweaks (give Gimmick a time limit; chop Contra Spirits' extend rate), this game is more or less arcade-ready. Legend is effectively Mushihimesama's Ultra tier, right down to their shared warning: get ready to die, a lot, on your path to glory.

(I've always loved this aspect of oldschool hardcore... despite being handed the role at the press of [start], you're not an Arthurian warrior king, or master shinobi, or elite special operative. The challenge is to gradually earn those bonafides. "Go do something productive!" Yeah no, this shit rocks. :cool:)

I get the feeling Legend is also meant to provide veteran masters with a return to square one; that first encounter with a truly balls-hard game we all remember. By necessity, in order to trigger that response, it has to be absolutely searing; hence both opening areas, despite aesthetically reviving OG and Dai's first stages, being easily as tough as their endgames. It's a marvelous service to the most diehard of fans. It's also wonderful for relative outsiders, like me, who first encountered the arcade games via home release (GNG's Genesis cart, Capcom Generation 2's ports of OG+Dai), to get some idea of what it must've been like encountering this stuff in the wild.

As expected, Knight feels bang-on for a new arcade Makaimura's default. I totally missed the first HellHole, on Legend, being 110% laser-focused on merely surviving. Lots of spots that demanded painstaking observation and experimentation - the flytrap encirclement in particular - became entirely less onerous on account of that lone extra hitpoint, allowing the parlay of what would be death into a scrambling recovery.

It's still balls-out hard, easily matching OG/Dai/Chou; just marginally less punishing than Legend, which surpasses them. As Sima noted, I didn't use Rebirth banners at any point; giving players the option is yet another stroke of crossover design genius.

METAL 4 MANIACZ PURE (`w´メ)
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I don't think making Knight the default, with selecting Legend giving an unmistakably dire !!!WARNING!!! !!!VETERANS ONLY!!! prompt, would've changed GNGR's reception, sadly. That's just the nature of mainstream audiences. Squire has a great (if troubling) anecdote about this. :lol:

Given that, I admire them for just saying "fuck it" and making Legend the default selection, even if objectively I consider it a "welcome to hell" extreme. It's wonderful to see that kind of audacity and commitment to the diehards from a brand-new, relatively high-profile action/platformer.

Welp, podcast over, back to the hell. Image

EDIT: Speaking of near spit-takes...

"Hey, Frog magic is great for disarming sniper nests!" Ultramage gets caught in same blast

... ... ... :shock:

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THATS WHAT YOU CALL MY SWEET REVENGE (`w´メ)



Ahh, feels good to give the fuckers a taste of their own medicine. :twisted: Heaven is here inside my soul. Image
Last edited by BIL on Sat Mar 18, 2023 11:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Lander »

Hellfire Hamlet conquered, and with holy water until the boss room mercy chest no less :) eat flame, hellhounds!

That was great; I used Firewall II to bust through the initial wall of bouncy foxes, leaning on good old trickshot memo for the home stretch. The clock tower seemed like a real ease-off after that, but can be optimized down to a few tight jumps by the time you're ruminating on how to pass the trio upstairs.
Classic perceptual wall - initially an insurmountable triple miniboss, but with low enough health relative to their burly appearance that you can safely divide and conquer with a bit of foreknowledge.

The boss itself was good too - much more challenging than my cyclops fluke. I had some trouble making the first phase consistent, but figured out a good option-select spot near the middle of the room once I was consistently reaching the last round.
BIL wrote:DEVILS WIND.wav ~or~ A Birb Crossing The Desert.mp3
Oh yes, that's the stuff right there Image
Sumez wrote:Though dropping to Knight from a Legend playthrough might not give you those extra checkpoints? (Banners of Rebirth) In which case it would be a pretty sound approach. That would actually mean the only difference is the extra hit point.
It's all been classic-ish rules as far as I've seen - checkpoints at the halfway point and boss, and reduced enemy spawns / certain preset baddies removed when you drop down a notch.
No extra hit either, unless you're counting golden armor pickups. A far cry from the matroshka doll of themed plate you could peel off Arthur in Goku before finally hitting boxers :lol:
BIL wrote:I wonder if that's a Japanese folklore thing, like the Kamaitachis?

That's my knee-jerk intuition; it seems too distinctive to not have some more esoteric basis.
BIL wrote:I get the feeling Legend is also meant to provide veteran masters with a return to square one; that first encounter with a truly balls-hard game we all remember. By necessity, in order to trigger that response, it has to be absolutely searing; hence both opening areas, despite aesthetically reviving OG and Dai's first stages, being easily as tough as their endgames. It's a marvelous service to the most diehard of fans.
I liken well-crafted GnG sadism to the straightforward, outspoken friend most folks have probably known at some point in their lives. Wilfully abraisive and never above trading some ribbing shit talk; the kind of individual you can tell to "fuck off, cunt" and prompt a belly laugh rather than a fist fight.

A genuine diamond if your skin is thick enough to exist on their level, but a big nasty meanie for those of more sensitive (read: journalistic) mien.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Indeed, I always come back to Fujiwara's tales of managing loke tests in person, then returning to the office to code out safespots. :mrgreen: The best arcade games land that coin squarely on its edge, a place equidistant from agapē and "oh fuck off!" that might be termed passion. ImageImageImage

I was really impressed at the clocktower's gear platforms; it's the sort of geometry that can feel horribly choppy if done poorly, but the physics and movement were totally intuitive, especially with the keen arrangement often letting you walk directly between gears. Definitely one of the more chill sequences so far, nice change of pace from stuff like the absolutely relentless Giant's Tower.

EDIT: I can't believe what a consummate new Makaimura this is. :o Zone 3 boss intro was legit menacing. Image It's wildly apparent that Fujiwara and his team were firing on all cylinders, but it even feels like Capcom put their backs into it. I'm so used to seeing legendary headliners reduced to the nostalgia circuit... this one's a thoroughbred that kicks like a goddamn mule.

I love how bosses, despite generally having more patterns and phases than their forebears, are every bit as susceptible to a classically well-positioned knife barrage. Oldschool white-knuckle aggression never left the building.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Ebbo »

BIL wrote:Man, Turtles ain't got shit on Fennecs for perimeter defence. :shock: Little bastards really don't want you getting into their clock tower.
Inspired by the recent discourse, I restarted my no-magic/upgrades run and once I reached that portion, just that sound effect was enough to get my blood boiling. Fuck those critters. Forget medusa sine waves, those fennec parabolas were devised by Satan himself :lol:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

*pots n' pans intensifies* :mrgreen:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

I like the foxes who jump up high into the air. Why? Because they are invariably engineered to land in the exact "safe" spot the player is likely to move to. God mode trolling.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

The firestarting is great too, a Flying Mortar Fox that's nowhere near you might still end up causing trouble. Giving them an (adorable!) random idle animation (squeak squeak) invokes the best spirit of fighting game taunts, ie "Here buddy have some meter" Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Lander »

Bleh, I ended up swamped in code over the weekend with nary a moment to dig into stage 3. Time to don my kingly circlet and relax in the most 5th gen way possible.

Edit: I can't believe they hid a stealth section at the bottom of Mephisto's Grotto :lol: really smart layout overall. The candle platforming was easily the biggest wall - having to keep up with the intersection of bats, nibbly jibblies and visible platform memory while half-relying on the ledge grab was a steep challenge indeed.

Made it to the halfway point with a whoop of satisfaction - that looks to be an endurance segment, so I'll come back to it having seen (hopefully) most of the upcoming dangers :)

Though, this mother fucker:

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Popped up on top of me for free damage at one point, just as I was getting off the ladder.

KILL JESTER
KILL JESTER Image
BIL wrote:The best arcade games land that coin squarely on its edge, a place equidistant from agapē and "oh fuck off!" that might be termed passion. ImageImageImage
Another perfect callback to that one-on-one dialogue between player and designer that I won't stop banging on about :mrgreen:
BIL wrote:I was really impressed at the clocktower's gear platforms; it's the sort of geometry that can feel horribly choppy if done poorly, but the physics and movement were totally intuitive, especially with the keen arrangement often letting you walk directly between gears. Definitely one of the more chill sequences so far, nice change of pace from stuff like the absolutely relentless Giant's Tower.
For sure, my rectum was pre-clenched in anticipation of death by straight-down trajectory when walking off a ledge - a footgun employed to great effect in the microcomputer-centric Horrible Little Man genre - but here it's properly designed in rather than an unhappy accident.

I also noted that Arthur has the tiniest smidgen of horizontal control during a neutral jump - insufficient thrust to affect anything resembling a dodge, but just enough to edge yourself onto an adjacent ledge and avoid the awkward run-back-and-side-hop exhibited by the more rigid games of eld.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Klatrymadon »

I've also been inspired by Sumez and all the chat here to dig back into this, having played through a few stages at release and dropped down to Knight after banging my head against the first checkpoint for half an hour. The game still feels a bit deranged in terms of how demanding it is - impeccable game knowledge and memorisation are required, but so is a fevered ability to react to unexpected occurrences all over the place. It doesn't feel like I'm dealing with RNG in the traditional sense, though, but extremely 'modular' level design that reacts to what I'm doing and keeps tabs on the situations I've seen in order to present me with ones I haven't, and pull the rug out whenever I start feeling like I've learned a section. I've no idea how it really works, but now that I'm playing it on Legend and only seeing the main checkpoints I think Sumez was dead right - it's a thousand times more compelling this way, even if it is potentially a thousand times more frustrating. I spent an hour or so yesterday practicing the first graveyard checkpoint, almost getting there on my second or third attempt, but jumping into the pond just before the flag. Every subsequent run was a disaster, but it was enough to give me the confidence to keep hurling myself at it, and when I sat down this morning and cleared the section without breaking a sweat I knew I was locked in for the eventual clear. The game is brutal and expects too much, but it's so satisfying to get somewhere in it that it manages to feel inviting and encouraging in spite of itself.

(I've no idea if that run was down to 'nice' RNG or good learning and execution, but there's something exciting about this, too.)

Edit: actually, I'm selling myself short. What really secured the run for me was an effortless dispatching of the Red Arremer - baiting him into a ramming attack and taking a hit, but salmon-leaping over his next two swoops and lancing him in the pus.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

I think the secret to clearing the first checkpoint is killing the Arremer so you have as much time as you need to wait out the troll log platform. The temptation is to rush past the Arremer and try to clear the jump before he can catch up. But when I tried that, I either dropped into the drink or got trolled by an undodgeable Arremer pattern while I was perched precariously on the log. I've watched a lot of different people play that section and they all got caught in ways similar to me. But if the Arremer is not there, you can watch the platform for a good 30 seconds and memorize its movement pattern.

Likewise with the flying burrito hell, mastering down-shooting while jumping will help immensely. The 5 pirahna plant trap spawn has to be defanged in a very particular way that I can't really describe. You have to limit your horizontal movement while baiting the plants into position to be killed. Or you can try to damage rush them as they spawn, so you kill them before they lunge at you. But if you are too slow then you will 100% eat damage.

BTW jesters are vulnerable to their own gimmick. They transform you into frog? You transform them into frog! Revenge, bitch!
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I really love the frog sprite in GnG Resurrection. It's one of my favorite sprites ever from a video game, alongside FuSoYa's dead sprite in FF4
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Klatrymadon »

Oh yeah, running past the Arremer is a huge mistake! Might as well die with dignity. He wasn't the reason I fell in the water the first time, but yeah, I can't imagine making that jump successfully with him around. In spite of his long-standing reputation as a nightmare enemy to deal with, I'm finding him really manageable here, at least in that big open area. You can consistently jump his swooping attacks, the fireballs aren't up to much, and the ramming attack is (as ever) a free kill...
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Wonderful to see others enjoying this too! Makes me feel slightly less lame for sitting out at release. Only slightly! I had a bunch of enemy clears to nail down that year. :oops: And I uh, I spent all of 2022 on FuromuSoftus. With cheetos and lots of beer. >_> Image

Is it me, or do Arremers not have that running attack AKA ez-kill in Dai? I can't seem to recall it. In that game, I never really learned to fight them; just relied on backhopped dagger-spam. Not an option here, past the first few Zones, with their appearing in places where extended retreat is dangerous if not impossible. I'd completely overlooked the whole "stare down the barrel" setup; once I figured that out, space wasn't nearly as big a concern.

Normally I'm not big on action games requiring you to attack second (revisited Bloodborne with a commitment to Lamp Motherfuckers First, blastin' em only if they had the same idea Image); but Arremer being such a consummate nemesis-type, it's absolutely thrilling. Like dodging traffic, while popping the would-be vehicular assassin in the dome. Image Image I've even had several run-ins where I handle the big fucker and zako I let into the fight like a dumbass, previously a "welp, nice knowin' ya!" scenario.

Hit Zone 5 last night - I've no doubt some godawful things lie ahead, but this game does nothing if not harden you the fuck up, laddeh. Image I gotta say, while Zone 3's climactic setpiece was harrowing mythic cool, Zone 4's was just pure relentless terror; from the winds of Valhalla, to the fragrant bowels of hell. :lol:

Cannot overstate my satisfaction at noticing small zombies have a SHOOT EM IN THE HEAD damage multiplier, just like their big bros. Usually it's Vampire/Darkstalkers I consider this series' crossover kin; good to see Fujiwara get a bit of Sweet Home/Biohazard in, too. :cool:
Lander wrote:Though, this mother fucker:

[Marvelous Jezter]

Popped up on top of me for free damage at one point, just as I was getting off the ladder.

KILL JESTER
KILL JESTER Image
:lol:

IT'S MAH MONEH. IT'S MAH GAME *FROG NUKE* Wewlwaffit m8~
I also noted that Arthur has the tiniest smidgen of horizontal control during a neutral jump - insufficient thrust to affect anything resembling a dodge, but just enough to edge yourself onto an adjacent ledge and avoid the awkward run-back-and-side-hop exhibited by the more rigid games of eld.
Superb bit of micro-optimisation, that - I wonder if the ledge grip triggers on the same principle, ie Arthur passes by at that same almost-flush distance.

That first candle jump was a nightmare, I actually got several ledge grips only to hit [attack] and kill myself. Image Eventually overcame by staring murderfaced at the absolute limit of the platform, before lights out.

Getting booted back to the grotto wasn't too bad, though, since I actually learned how to fight Arremers, via the one hanging out under the chandelier. The terrifying dark beyond its light giving a fine incentive to stay in the ring! I actually killed the one lurking in the candle room's torch on my way to the pennant, after a bleary accidental wakeup - albeit eating a dive tackle, before tagging him with the Boxer Revengeance aka GOLD EXPERIENCE Image
Sima Tuna wrote:BTW jesters are vulnerable to their own gimmick. They transform you into frog? You transform them into frog! Revenge, bitch!
Spoiler
I really love the frog sprite in GnG Resurrection. It's one of my favorite sprites ever from a video game, alongside FuSoYa's dead sprite in FF4
Haa, I know! Image It's so hard to stay mad when you're relegated to the little guy, or even if you manage to land on an enemy who's met the same fate. He looks so pleased with himself. :mrgreen:

---

Halfway there (I think) Image

Loop 1 endgame spoilies:
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I like how, after the wickedly thorny Zone 4 - that security grid is a bracing test of precision, and as for the post-midboss setpiece... rarely has a scrolling action game so conveyed sheer claustrophobia :shock: - the fifth shifts into radically different gear; a woodchipper onslaught of chunky boss speedkills and sprint-paced platforming.

Astaroth and Lucifer reveals were fuckin HAWT. I found the former trickier on account of his overlapping fire attacks... seemed the way out was through, there. Stayed on the ground for Lucifer, mostly.

Loved the heavy platforming aspect on Astaroth, reminded me a bit of Phalanx's final form in Demon's Blazon.


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HELP ME SWEET JEBUS (`w´メ)
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BOXING REVENGEONER Image
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BOXING REVENGEONER II: THE ANOTHER REVENGEONING Image
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Gon get sum pusseh 2-NITE ;3 ;3 ;3 (THATS PORBLEMATIC :O)
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Well done dear frens ;-;7
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Lander »

My god, Stone Dragons' Drop.

Run: Flawless
Platforming: Accounted For
Burrito Interceptor Countermeasures: Deployed
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FULL ARMOR AINT GON' SAVE YOU FROM THIS BOI

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Forget "I can't be mad", Fujiwara just injected concentrated Mushin Zen directly into my amygdala.

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And after all that, the big area boss was... A pushover? Image
Dude's just Fat Arremer with a visibility gimmick, trivially-herdable projectiles, and a fatal case of Achilles' Taint. Perhaps intentionally, after what precedes him.
A Marvinesque earth-shattering kaboom seemed inevatable, but... Here's 7000 points and a key for coming in instead? HUZZAH!
BIL wrote:I've no doubt some godawful things lie ahead, but this game does nothing if not harden you the fuck up, laddeh.
Oorah Image
BIL wrote:Superb bit of micro-optimisation, that - I wonder if the ledge grip triggers on the same principle, ie Arthur passes by at that same almost-flush distance.
I'm wondering about that myself - it feels like you have to bungle a jump perfectly in order to trigger it, which is an exquisite design oxymoron :lol:

If I had to speculate, I'd say there's a fixed segment of the jump arc (i.e. late enough to occur below the starting position) where a few-pixels-small grab-box gets turned on somewhere around Arthur's projectile spawn point.
That would account for the lack of upward clambering, and I suspect it only activates for a few frames since it's such a rare occurence in normal play.

On other mechanics, I'm really appreciating the weapon slot skill at this point in the game as well.
Gone are the aw fack moments where the question is one of certain death now by enemy, or many probable deaths later by holy water pickup.
And - in an uncharacteristic fit of kindness - it even prioritizes so your equipped weapon is always the one that gets kept :o
Klatrymadon wrote:(I've no idea if that run was down to 'nice' RNG or good learning and execution, but there's something exciting about this, too.)
My feeling so far is that it is - with some exceptions - deterministic from the point at which each setpiece is loaded in, but seeded on time and player action in such a way that makes it easy to desync from the expected outcome if your execution drops for just a second or two.
It's definitely not so tight that reproducible situations are TAS-only, but you have to run it on the redline / abuse Arthur's fixed-duration jump / know when a given section activates to make it consistent.

My reasoning being that I've been able to intentionally force certain patterns by either rushing down (Stage 3 Part 1) or intentionally positioning Arthur as a given enemy spawner loads in (Stage 3 Part 2 / Latter Half).
The exception in question being that smarmy jester bugger pictured above - I could make the stage up to his second spawn 90% consistent by rushing down (with that 10% potentially being accounted for by the variations you mentioned), but that second spawn position seemed completely random - maybe seeded on time in a much tighter way, or maybe just completely random.

Anecdotally, that's the one thing I've seen in 7 hours of difficulty-dropped Legend that could be considered unforgivaburu. Non-dropped seems to operate on the same ideas, just with more pressure to make you screw up and break rhythm.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BrianC »

Someone made an input fix hack for Holy Diver! I'll give it a go!

Edit: Wow! Tried the original and hack and the hack definitely feels much more responsive!
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Oh nice, that's a biggie. :o Tragic case, HD. What should've been a merely tough game, one full of wicked character, was instead flat-out demoniacally broken.

I suspect they dearly wanted to make an action game - a curiously arcadised hybrid of Metroid and Zelda 2, to be precise - but just didn't have the coding chops. Compare with TAMTEX's Metal Storm from a couple years later, absolutely razor-sharp.

Coincidentally, was just having a leisurely wee all over the numbnuts in ShumpSchat whining about Andro Dunos 2 being made in a toolkit. I'd MUCH rather HD's devs had fired up My First Famicom Sidescroller Studio, then proceeded to let their inimitably \M/ETAL vision of scrolling JIGOKU run wild. I wouldn't care, even if the end credits said "MADE IN MY FIRST FAMICOM SIDESCROLLER STUDIO" ! At least I'd still have my sanity, UNLIKE with the OG code!

A man's got to know his limitations. Image

...tbh, I think nomissing factory-spec Holy Diver gave me mild brain damage, so I don't really want to revisit right now, but it's good to know the patch is there. :mrgreen:

In other news, GNGR Shadow Loop is making me do a different kind of wee, a SEX WEE :shock: It's EVIL AND BUMMING AS ALL HELL for sure - but every bit the knowingly stern love letter to diehards the first loop was. :cool: Also I'm up way too late. Sticking with this for sure, that's my next week sorted.

It's not all pain either; greatly enjoying MO BEES Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Lander »

Oh cool, it's the Dio game! I saw that on Shmup Junkie and thought it was a criminal shame for something so ambitious and rad-looking to be hamstrung by junky controls.

Onto the list it goes. Ah, good games are like buses and black holes: Naff all for ages, and then four show up all at once.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

What's everyone's approach to taking down arremers in Resurrection? I never got comfortable dealing with them at all; my only plan for them was to bait out the charge and punish it. (To go full scrub, I still think Ghouls 'n Ghosts had the best arremers in the series. They nail a perfect balance of absolutely demanding your attention over other threats, but are reasonably vulnerable during many different actions and can be taken down at a good pace - but with every subsequent game in the series, they get buffed more and more, making them so oppressive that they're less fun to deal with.)

I haven't played Resurrection for a bit, but this thread is going to see me revisiting it, I think. As far as the difficulty discussion from earlier goes - I had to play the game on Legend myself, just to make that first playthrough as effective as capturing the vibe of my initial, credit-feeding runs of the rest of the series ten years ago, when they all seemed ridiculously overbearing - but I don't think playing on Knight and ignoring the extra checkpoints (which the retry menu seems to suggest you do, anyway) is too bad of a way to play.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Yeah, it's been a few years, but I could swear Dai/Ghouls Arremers had considerable windows of vulnerability. I never really felt like I knew what I was doing, but by the same token, I could reliably improv around them.

GNGR's seem deliberately disempowering, by comparison, and perhaps entirely reliant on input reads. It feels like they're simply untouchable when not in attack frames, at which point, they become onrushing freight trains you're meant to stand down and counterattack. Also feels like flinching and twitching, prior to their attack, is actively punished, causing them to hang back and increasing the likelihood of zako spawns (likewise, evading their direct attack always feels like a wasted chance to me).

The running tackle is ideal, of course. The diving tackle... I'm not 100% on whether he has ground- and air-targeting variants, or if it's a single attack that targets your Y coordinate. Or, a third possibility, that they're randomly-selected. Sometimes a crouch will evade the dive; others, I'll eat it head-on, and wish I'd jumped. Or the inverse, haha.

This apparent variable has implications for counter-attacking, too, of course. Doppelganger seems a consistent asset, I try to have at least one active when I engage.

Needless to say, very early days for me - it feels like they really built this game not just to shellshock new players in the short term, but provide a classically long-lived mastering process. It wouldn't surprise me at all if I'm missing something obvious here, let alone more esoteric/idiosyncratic solutions.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Marc »

I'm glad you guys are enjoying, but I got bummed so hard it that I flat out gave up. The zako are just way too relentless for my feeble reactions.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Marc wrote:I'm glad you guys are enjoying, but I got bummed so hard it that I flat out gave up. The zako are just way too relentless for my feeble reactions.
Don't be discouraged, Makaimura and Daimakaimura are tough games, and this nukes them out of the water - even if you use every upgrade offered! Fujiwara and co made an arcade game with absolutely zero preamble, just balls-to-the-wall hardcore leavened by some exceptionally hard-won upgrades. No more shame getting bodied here than in something like Final Fight or GunSmoke.

SHADOW LOOP: A Stage Of Ultimate Battle (■`w´■)

"That's why people, who need light to see, are their natural prey..."

Image

ITS BAD OUT THERE U KNOW (`w´メ) (turtle's walking SFX... Image)

Something I finally appreciated, in my first foray into the nightmarish Shadow Graveyard; the way GNGR's zombies don't simply bump into you, but instead, have a very deliberate attack animation: a flailing grab, complete with a face-planting whiff, followed by a sheepish return to the dirt from whence they came.

It looks like a cute detail, at first (as cute as a murderous reanimated corpse can be, anyway ^w^); but in that nightmare battlefield, it became vital. Can't spare the time to turn around and fire? Let 'em go for the grab, then move forward a couple steps while they eat floor.

~a Garden 2 Play w/Ghosts~
Spoiler
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Quite a bit more detail here. In the finest tradition of primo 80s scrolling action, approaching Zombies and SKELETON MURDERERS are both blind; hop over 'em and they'll jog on. However, they will visibly "spot" Arthur while spawning; in other words, beware if you hop over one that's erupting from its hiding spot.

Also, a faceplanted Zombie retains its contact damage for a split-second. You can blast 'em, but you'll also take damage if you land on the goofy fucker! You better be (as they say in the Valken unit) Fully Set Up For Penetration if you're dealing with a dogpile.

A Test For The Loyalists
Spoiler
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SKELETON MURDERER is way too quick to juke away from, but he too has a whiffable strike!

Operation BONE EATER
Spoiler
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The game's absolutely loaded with fine-brush detailing like that. See also the puppet skeletons in Zone 4, spawning in a way that dares both an aggressive run-under, as well as a risky headshot that might trip an alarm, if missed... and the "sproinnng!" SFX isn't just for show! It's a vital cue that they've gone for their trump card, a targeted stomp, shortly after which they'll disintegrate.

The light/dark mechanic introduced in Zone 3 instantly recalled Demon's Blazon, the last of the Makaimura Gaidens... but as this game tends to do, it actually ended up building way beyond it. Shadow Graveyard quickly establishes a particularly well-done polarity mechanic... the fires that illuminate material foes lurking in darkness will obscure their shadow counterparts, and vice versa. There's this amazing push-and-pull, holding off fiends in torchlight one second, willfully plunging into pitch darkness to reveal hordes of incoming wraiths the next and back again.

And again, the audio design is absolutely stellar. I actually dialled the BGM down to 50%, with the snarling racket of erupting zombies and sprinting footsteps of SKELETON MURDERERS an invaluable edge. They're also just damn good SFX, particularly the *kthwack* and kerunch of weapon impacts, and the endlessly gratifying charge explosions. The *THOOOM* floating graves make when they slam down sounds like something outta goddamn Raiden.
Lander wrote:On other mechanics, I'm really appreciating the weapon slot skill at this point in the game as well.
Gone are the aw fack moments where the question is one of certain death now by enemy, or many probable deaths later by holy water pickup.
And - in an uncharacteristic fit of kindness - it even prioritizes so your equipped weapon is always the one that gets kept :o
I'd ignored that skill until seeing your post, went and snapped it up right away. :mrgreen: TBH they coulda sold a separate "ignore new weapon pickups" skill and I'd have paid IRL money. :lol: Begone, wretched landmining things!

I didn't realise until last night's session, Arthur's expression changes when he's wielding heavy weaponry. Dagger = Image Iron Ball = Image I've had some promising early results with the big bugger; its piercing and ground-shaving properties are excellent for dealing with rushing zako hordes.

I also didn't realise enemies have weapon-specific death animations! Iron Ball smashes the buggers flat, Fire and Crossbow make 'em do the classic Man On Fire Boogie, etc.

I suspect Dai will retain its spot in my sidescrolling action triple crown alongside Saigo and Rygar, owing to its innately streamlined coinop format; but by the same token, this is the first game in forever to make me consider swapping it out.

EDIT: Now that's what I call kismet Image

Image

DEMON VILLAGE HELL PATROL never ends. Image Image Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

BrianC wrote:Someone made an input fix hack for Holy Diver! I'll give it a go!

Edit: Wow! Tried the original and hack and the hack definitely feels much more responsive!
That hacker is a true hero.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Man. Thought I'd have a relaxing evening clearing out the first loop's remaining bees (missed eight altogether, tried to rescue 'em where I could, but like hell was I gonna go digging around Giant's Tower with new and terrifying variants of Big Boi popping out of the closets like it was pride week in Hades). Thought things were a bit brisk in Execution Grounds, actually it felt like a goddamn KOF match, with all the hyper-hopping I needed to survive the opening rush of SKELETON MURDERERS. Barely time to get off a L2 charge!

Joke's on you, bitches! That Revenge Pot Drop ain't shit 2 me nao :cool:
Spoiler
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Then I got to the forest, and the Kamaitachis cockblocked me brutally, and I wondered if I'd really improved, or just bruteforced through. Aaand then, an onslaught of large enemies that weren't there before appeared, and like a dumbass, I finally realised this wasn't the first loop at all. It's the second; you can never go back. Shadow Loop is its own nightmarish echelon altogether, twisting and turning its stage geometries, enemy rosters, and even enemy behaviours, until their "Transformed" prefixes are earned tenfold.

This game's evil genius and insight is unrelenting - no EZ LOOP 1 BEEZY to help with that umbral nightmare here, boyo. Image That's what a director with a lifetime of first-rate arcade action game design - and blood ties to the series itself - can do for you. Made a new file and revisited Loop 1 Legend, mowed it in one shot. Image
Vanguard wrote:
BrianC wrote:Someone made an input fix hack for Holy Diver! I'll give it a go!

Edit: Wow! Tried the original and hack and the hack definitely feels much more responsive!
That hacker is a true hero.
Sure feels good to have undertaken the nightmarish ordeal BP (before patch) though, don't it? :mrgreen:

All the game needs now is an emulator with sprite limit disable, assuming HD's code isn't so boned that its vanishings aren't caused by something entirely different. :lol:
Last edited by BIL on Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Lander »

Holy chew toys Batman, Stage 4 is unrelenting. A no-holds-barred double dose of pain concentrate.
I continue to be impressed that each area has its own distinct-feeling ways to torture you on the way to mastery.

Ah, sir is finished studying unanticipated impact on the Casino Royale rope-and-chair?

Image

Right this way - we have a slow, agonizing session of feather duster bondage prepared specially.

Edit: Ooooohh boy, I go back after typing this and immediately make it to the checkpoint, but only by the skin of my recently-skeletonized teeth. Can't believe it gave me that one :shock:
Sir Ilpalazzo wrote:What's everyone's approach to taking down arremers in Resurrection?
I try and pull him to maximum range to get as much reaction time as possible versus the high/low swoop mixup, with the intent to forward throw > jump on low and jump > down throw on high.
Though that's quite terrain dependent, and you have to be careful not to exceed his tether distance and cause an unintended move once you've established space.

Fireballs are fairly easy to neutral hop or walk under, and if he lands the charge is free provided you can keep your nerve.

Outside of that, you can ease the pressure of clearing out excess zako by periodically stopping to chuck a projectile at him, forcing a dodge and resetting his AI timer.

Though for all that, he still reams me on the regular :lol:
BIL wrote:[Tortle Soles]
Ah, beautiful. A rare moment of serenity absent the hordes of bloodthirsty enemies just out of frame :mrgreen:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Sorry for anyone who clicked my spoiler and received not my usual expertly-cut GIF, but the first page of JOSMAN classic My Gay And Raunchy Son - had the spoiler template saved from a post in the American politics thread. :3 :3 :3

Shit happens when you're up too late hitting TEH VIDYA NASTIES :shock:
Lander wrote:Image
Man you keep bringing that oldschool FORUM MOTICON excellence Image The civilising presence of an Ainsley Harriot commentary track would go pretty well with GNGR or any first-rate R2RKMF killathon tbh :cool: That tactical Heisenberg GIF is fuckin killer BTW :lol:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Lander wrote:
BIL wrote:[Tortle Soles]
Ah, beautiful. A rare moment of serenity absent the hordes of bloodthirsty enemies just out of frame :mrgreen:
Also got some cracking shots of frogs! ^__^

Image

I have never been happier to be DEAD FUCKIN WRONG than with GNGR's aesthetics. I'd deliberately avoided any and all footage/pics, and all I recalled from a couple years back was the trailer's lukewarm reception (I knew it'd play great though, once the Makaimura thread got into it). Aesthetcally, this thing is fit to call itself Makaimura V: Makaimura Gaiden IV. Of course it can't indulge in otherworldly charm the way Blazon can; Arthur's domain was always one of unbending valour and grim struggle. But it's overflowing with the series' trademark balance of the daft, the radiant, and the really quite boned! Mind the falling corpses y'hear? ;3 ;3 ;3

(btw, my OFFICIAL MAKAIMURA V rewrite is still going for a pint! hit me up Capcom ;3 ;3 ;3 u can use it for the next game! God knows you won't get away with another problematic story like this one's, if renowned arcade bible LA TIMES has anything to say about it :shock:)

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Oi don't give me that look. (■`w´■) You're literally named SKELETON MURDERER, ffs. (trade usernames? ;3)

Image
Last edited by BIL on Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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