Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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CIT
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by CIT »

So, I 1cc'd Ken-Go — Irem's obscure semi-sequel to Saigo No Nindou/Ninja Spirit. Except that it's not a semi-sequel at all, but a completely unrelated game from a different dev team within Irem that happens to also feature Ninjas and a dark, brooding atmosphere.

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I'd say Ken-Go is best described as a R2RHABAUBABOM! (run 2 the right holding attack button and unleashing big ass blast on motherfuckers!). The longer you charge, the bigger your blast. In that sense it actually plays a fair bit like R-Type. The charge blast is also way stronger than your normal attack, which is really only useful for minor zako. Furthermore, in charged state your sword acts a shield and will deflect attacks and projectiles. Since you'll be holding down the attack most of the time you actually jump by pressing up, like in a fighting game. This control scheme brought back some long repressed Amiga memories at first, but turns out you get used to it pretty quickly. The jump tends to the floaty, but you can actually cancel right out of it by pressing down. There's also a Zelda II style downstab, although I didn't really find much use for it.

So on to the game. Stage 1 feels like Saigo No Nindou, with you traversing dilapidated temples and being constantly swarmed by enemies. Music is some dope darkninja chiptune rock as well.
Stage seemed tough: the intense pace made me wonder what the rest of the game has in store for me. First of many mini bosses in the game is a spear dude. Time to test the charge shot if you haven't done yet. After some more Ninja gang bang action you face off with a teleporting Kunoichi in front a giant Buddha statue. Game definitely doesn't hold back in the visuals department. Pretty cool! Crouch in the corner and release charge blast between her attacks to make short work of her.

Stage 2 has you climb a mountain with a bunch of......Karnovs ( :shock: ) waiting for you. Apart from that it's oddly sparse. Later in the stage some Ninjas will materialize out of thin air. They're immediately vulnerable, so take them out before they've fully appeared. Boss is a stone golem. Charge blast him until the stones fly off, then stand below the summoner at the 5 or 7 o'clock safe spot to whittle away at him without getting hit by his suicide bullets.

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Next you're on a ship. Awesome variety! Stage is oddly easy though, with just a few cannons, haplessly flying Ninjas and Karnovs not really putting up much of a resistance. Soon you'll reach a cave with some more mini bosses: Hunchbacks and the double-sworded mofo who slashed your girl in the intro to the game. The boss is a pair of sorcerers, one of whom will throw boomerangs at you, while the other makes stalagtites drop from the ceiling. Stay on the top ledge and wait for your opening to attack.

Stage 4 is the inside of a mechanical castle. Big difficulty spike here. Rampant ninja related crimes everywhere you look, with dudes jumping out of doors on two levels and getting all Rolling Thunder in your business. Lots of traps (fake item boxes, urgh) and tricky bits to work out. Don't destroy the long row of boxes or you'll get fried by the fire that starts spreading. You can smash the boxes once you've defeated the jumping Karnov, but make sure you use the i-frames granted by the life extend and 1up to traverse the fire. Some more traps and miniboss shenanigans up ahead until you get to an elevator with a spear dude. Make sure to kill him before the real boss appears: the mechanical steampunk tank. This one's tricky and I'd be interested to learn a better strat than mine, which is to stand on the second highest platform on the tank (basically right where the turret is) and blast away as soon as the red orb appears. When the tank starts turning red I usually hop right to the top to finish it off, as it tends to troll me by somehow pushing me through the platform.

Final stage time and big Saigou No Nindou vibes again, running through a field at night time. First bit's a bit clunky as you'll have to catch a ride on a few speeding horses to travers some more fire. Jump cancel comes in handy here. After that it's time for a boss rush, interspersed with some intense Ninja onslaughts — although you can actually just jet across the screen to avoid some of it. Final boss is not too hard. Charge'n blast him between deflecting his lasers. When lightning strikes, make sure to jump or the fire will really fuck you up.

Nice ending after that, but what's with you hugging your lady? Didn't she get mowed down in the intro. Image

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Anyway, clear it on a credit and you'll enter the special game. Special meaning that there are twice as many enemies and they take twice as many hits to kill. So you'll have to literally inch your way forward, from spawn point to spawn point. I don't know if I have the energy for this, haha. I guess I'll leave it at 2-2 as my final resting place.

Final thoughts: Music and graphics are top notch Irem quality, and the game system is unique and fun enough too. However, something about the game gives off an unfinished feel. The level design relies a bit too much on Karnovs for my taste (nothing against our buddy Karnov though, he's amazing of course), and some sections are strangely sparse, while others are intense. So yeah, difficulty is oddly balanced as well. My biggest point of criticism however is that the sword deflect tends to be a bit unreliable in spots. Rather than something you can deploy at will, you gotta memorize when and where it's safe to use in what way.

Ken-Go is a nice enough game, but it's nowhere near the perfection of Saigo No Nindou. I give it 7/10 Karnovs.

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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Superbly done as usual, indexed. :mrgreen: This game always sounds so cool... dark ninja/samurai sidescrollers are surprisingly uncommon, I've found. Tons of action/martial arts movie-influenced stuff, but for grim feudal tales, only Saigo, Kengo and Taromaru leap to mind. I seem to recall the SFC's Musya having some chops, but it's been forever since my brief test run. Genpei Toumaden and Getsu Fuuma Den have mythic horror in spades, though by the same token, give more of an otherworldly effect, with carnivalesque vibrancy to boot. Granted, Taromaru has plenty of crazy setpieces/monsters, and telekinetic protagonists, but the brutal kills, evil tone (st2 snake lady's intro is legit diabolic Image) and pitch-black BGM keep it grounded.

EDIT:
CIT wrote:Nice ending after that, but what's with you hugging your lady? Didn't she get mowed down in the intro. Image
Maybe they pulled an AC Double Dragon II? :lol: That which was lost and, no matter how vast the ocean of blood, will never be again :cry: (DD2AC is legit one of action gaming's most authentically punishing revenge tales Image)
Last edited by BIL on Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by pegboy »

Finally done playing Contra: Hard Corps as I've just now completed all 5 routes/endings without dying. My thoughts are this is a great game but not quite as good as Contra III, as the amount of idle time/cutscenes/etc kind of drags the game down at points.

There are a few very annoying parts in every path (except the secret ending route which is a joke in all aspects) and the Jungle stage just gets tedious with a lot of non-action occurring and then waiting to see if you get trolled with a terrible pattern on the second form of the boss.

Oddly most of the difficult parts in the game are the second to last bosses of the various routes, ex: Claw Bahamut, Dcotor Spider Crab, "Doctor Wily" Robot shit head.

The scariest attack in the entire game to me is probably from the Dr. Wily Robot when he throws out those pikes that extend across the screen and then just fly into you. Very hard to reliably dodge, or at least to me there seemed was no real pattern to it. Thankfully this asshole only appears in the shortest route and doesn't always do that attack.

Anyway, I'd still highly recommend the game but maybe not for doing no-death runs, as it did kind of wear on me by the end. Honestly I think Contra III might be a tad easier to no-death, the game is shorter (at least it feels shorter since you don't wait around as much) and you get more bombs and although they aren't nearly as devastating, they are much easier to use.

I guess Shattered Soldier is next, been a long, long time since I played that one.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Congrats, that's a lot of Contra! Great writeup too, marked for index.

Mandrake's spear options are a definite point of concern - like most of HC's deadliest hazards, they're especially wont to bait/punish slides. I suspect it's possible to consistently manipulate them - I did a Big Magnum 1LC pretty much exclusively to test, after copy/paster mentioned them. As per the description, I slightly botch the drop timing - if you wait too long, you'll get stabbed in the back from offscreen - but you can see the pattern: get on the ceiling, just under the "T" in "SHOT." Drop drown after the first flies past you, then tap-dodge to the center-left, forcing them into a wide circular path. They'll die before getting too near you. From there, it's smooth sailing.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Marc »

I probably need to give Kengo another try. I didn't enjoy it at all, but then again, I went in with literal expectations of @ninja Spirits 2', so probably didn't give it a fair crack.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by CIT »

BIL wrote:dark ninja/samurai sidescrollers are surprisingly uncommon, I've found. Tons of action/martial arts movie-influenced stuff, but for grim feudal tales, only Saigo, Kengo and Taromaru leap to mind. I seem to recall the SFC's Musya having some chops, but it's been forever since my brief test run. Genpei Toumaden and Getsu Fuuma Den have mythic horror in spades, though by the same token, give more of an otherworldly effect, with carnivalesque vibrancy to boot. Granted, Taromaru has plenty of crazy setpieces/monsters, and telekinetic protagonists, but the brutal kills, evil tone (st2 snake lady's intro is legit diabolic Image) and pitch-black BGM keep it grounded.
A couple more come to mind, such as the excellent Legend of Kage 2 (DS), Kenseiden (MkIII), and the fairly decent Ganryu (MVS), which I think I've discussed here as well. Overall I'd say I agree with the sentiment, but it's kinda difficult to the draw the line between the different styles anyway. How much steampunk does a ninja game need to really set it apart in from a more mythologically themed one? As far as I'm concerned, if it has Ninjas and they kill shit that's cool. Dark Ninjas with monsters and magic — even better! Dark Ninjas with monsters and magic and bizarre retro sci-fi tech — awesome! I think I just like anything that adds more flavor and mystique to a game's setting.
That which was lost and, no matter how vast the ocean of blood, will never be again :cry:
Indeed. Could just be a flashback to happier times, Irréversible style. :shock:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Ahh, damn - totally forgot Kenseiden. That one's got a superb necro-feudal air, and a real sense of exploring a comprehensively haunted land.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Stevens »

I got Kenseiden for Christmas in 1988. I played the shit out of that game. Really turned it inside out. Cause when you're a kid you only get a few games a year.

Minor gripe - New players will complain about the hit boxes on certain bosses (Benki comes to mind), and they would be right. But once you figure it out they go down quick.

Still have it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Yeah, definitely a few minor rough edges - my main issue is the way enemies/projectiles pop into existence near the screen border. Not unlike NG, but more of an issue here, with the bigger, less lightning-quick character.

That said, it's really only an issue in the optional Trial Rooms, where a single arrow will end your run. The way the open-ended map lets you either clear out Nihon for a super-buff Legendary Holy Sword(sman), or banzai-charge straight into the final boss's lair for a short, wickedly tough gauntlet, or anything in between is so good. Rarely do ARPGs get that balance so right. The game Dracula II shoulda been imo.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by pegboy »

Thanks BIL! I watched your vid and it does look like you can manipulate that attack. I did manage to get past the attack through a bit of luck in my run but it looks like it's not as bad as I was thinking.
BIL wrote:Congrats, that's a lot of Contra! Great writeup too, marked for index.

Mandrake's spear options are a definite point of concern - like most of HC's deadliest hazards, they're especially wont to bait/punish slides. I suspect it's possible to consistently manipulate them - I did a Big Magnum 1LC pretty much exclusively to test, after copy/paster mentioned them. As per the description, I slightly botch the drop timing - if you wait too long, you'll get stabbed in the back from offscreen - but you can see the pattern: get on the ceiling, just under the "T" in "SHOT." Drop drown after the first flies past you, then tap-dodge to the center-left, forcing them into a wide circular path. They'll die before getting too near you. From there, it's smooth sailing.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

While ACA Takeda Shingen was understandably overshadowed by the confirmation of Raiden, I loved seeing this tweet from TZW today, regarding that aforementioned DD2-style poke (rough translation via Yandex):

Spoiler
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by o.pwuaioc »

Stevens wrote:Still have it.
Rightly so! One, didn't know you kept your SMS games. Two, Kenseidon is top a 10 Master System game. Plus, it gets *thou* conjugations correct (thou didst and shalt and not thou did and shall), which gives it some props in my book.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Stevens »

o.pwuaioc wrote:
Stevens wrote:Still have it.
Rightly so! One, didn't know you kept your SMS games. Two, Kenseidon is top a 10 Master System game. Plus, it gets *thou* conjugations correct (thou didst and shalt and not thou did and shall), which gives it some props in my book.
Yeah I still have the SMS and about 30 games.

It was my first console so I don't think I'll ever part with it. It also currently resides at my mom's so space isn't a concern.

I find the thou stuff amusing, since they actually spell sword incorrectly as sord at one point. One of my favorites on the console though.

Late July/early August we should plan something.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

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Ok Kuwanger
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Blinge »

I felt like playing an old comfort so tried some Megaman X.
Chill Penguin first obv, then I went for Launch Octopus. couldn't beat him. two continues and I still couldn't.

fuck it, I might have turn in my taskforce card... :|

Edit: Ha, I'd closed the game and was gonna go shower but writing the post made me feel so dumb I loaded it back up again and beat him.

Ediit: there's something i don't understand about the X series. When am I supposed to use charge shot, and when am I supposed to rapid fire? Like.. is it better dps to just pointblank and mash the firebutton, or do full charge shots?

Ediiit: is the game supposed to have slowdown now and then? I've been using Bsnes ever since someone recommended it, might've been Trap. but like.. I dunno, it doesn't feel very good. I can't tell if that's the game or the emulator.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

The damage chart says a fully charged shot is 2x or 3x damage on most bosses. I think that conforms to the typical Mega Man design - the charged shot is a poopy thing in most circumstances, a side-option used to generate potential damage when you're unable to land shots. If it was better DPS, it'd just render the regular shot obsolete and that's not the kind of game they want those games to be.

I remember X having slowdown, and an internet skim says I remember correctly. The SNES is kind of infamous for chugging around in action games. If you've ever tried making some levels in Super Mario World, you'd know how comically low the sprite limit is in that engine. Just one of those features that gives the system its individual charm and character~
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

Blinge wrote:there's something i don't understand about the X series. When am I supposed to use charge shot, and when am I supposed to rapid fire? Like.. is it better dps to just pointblank and mash the firebutton, or do full charge shots?
In both X and OG Megaman mashing gives you way better dps against anything without mercy invincibility, which is mostly just bosses. It's often worth it to prepare a charged shot between fights, of course. These aren't super hardcore games though, feel free to use whichever makes you happier.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Blinge wrote:Ediiit: is the game supposed to have slowdown now and then? I've been using Bsnes ever since someone recommended it, might've been Trap. but like.. I dunno, it doesn't feel very good. I can't tell if that's the game or the emulator.
X1 will occasionally chug like a motherfucker on real hardware+cart, can confirm. It's especially noticeable if you get a bunch of minecarts and enemies following you in... who was it, Genocide Badger's stage? But yeah, it can struggle now and then. Capcom were generally pretty good at avoiding those extremes but they do 'appen. See its contemporary Demon's Blazon, also, where you'll be zipping along, whack a destructible scenery and BOOF! Bullet time, as its piddly four debris sprites vacate the screen. 3;
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Blinge wrote:Chill Penguin first obv, then I went for Launch Octopus. couldn't beat him. two continues and I still couldn't.
Chill Penguin is good to go for first because everything feels designed around dashing and it's a goddamn pain in the ass to not have the dash boots for even otherwise basic stuff like Storm Eagle (I'd redesign the game so every stage has the dash boots capsule somewhere mandatory thus avoiding MUST DO CHILL PENGUIN FIRST).

Launch Octopus however is, from what I remember, incredibly hard without his weakness. It's doable, but it's one of the harder bosses. Storm Eagle and Flame Mammoth would be recommended picks, Sting Chameleon's also doable if you can grab the armor off the difficult miniboss. Storm Eagle also happens to have an incredibly useful general purpose weapon (with a very strong charge shot with the arm upgrade).

The full charge shot once you get the arm upgrade is kinda unique in MMX. It takes a long time to charge, but the blast fully covers your hitbox (allowing it to hit small enemies behind you) and the wave of projectiles can hit multiple times. It's well worth using, and though mashing shot quickly is better DPS sometimes, by focusing on charge shots you can focus entirely on dodging during the charge. Experiment and figure out what works for you.
BIL wrote:Genocide Badger's stage?
You're thinking of Armored Armadillo, but now I'm sad there's no Genocide Badger.

Or for alliteration, Genocide Giraffe.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Aha! That's the one. Purple twat. Can be stunned by charged Buster. I was surprised at that, and likewise knocking that elephant on his arse, too. Seemed like a welcome bit of utility after the FC games.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

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BryanM wrote:The damage chart says a fully charged shot is 2x or 3x damage on most bosses. I think that conforms to the typical Mega Man design - the charged shot is a poopy thing in most circumstances, a side-option used to generate potential damage when you're unable to land shots. If it was better DPS, it'd just render the regular shot obsolete and that's not the kind of game they want those games to be.
Bosses always tend to have a lot of invincibility time after getting hit, though, especially in X games, so if you're just pot shotting with the blaster, you'll still often be wasting time. Whenever you are not shooting at the boss, you'll be better off always charging, but I guess that does without saying.
The SNES is kind of infamous for chugging around in action games.
Blame the developers, not the SNES :) Mega Man 3 slows down like hell as well, and that's definitely not the console's fault. Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts is another Capcom game famous for slowing to a crawl, and that could easily have been avoided.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Blinge »

Man..
kuwanger and mandrill are down now, using boss weaknesses feels like a copout so i go buster only, but i don't want to replay stages again so i'm using save states.

Either way, i enjoyed X the first couple of times. This time around, it's just.. it feels like a chore, not really enjoying it.

I get hit by one dumb enemy and i'm already furious.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

BrainΦΠΦTemple has a MMX no damage run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=autcVTsp0w0

Unless you're going for that, which is frankly insane, I wouldn't pressure yourself so much over getting hit occasionally. I dunno, if you want a spice it up go for for a no death run.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Yeahh, the health bar in Mega Man is there for a reason. They aren't tight dodging-everything instakill games.
I'd never want to go for a no damage run, but buster only runs can be a fun challenge.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Sharc described MMX as something like a Symphony of the Night-like masquerading as a traditional action-platformer, which is maybe the most apt description of the game I've seen. The game has great basic controls but the general game balance and tuning is pretty off (mostly in the player's favor though).

This definitely isn't the kind of game where you should sweat too much over pulling off perfect runs; it's an action game that's ultimately more about gearing up and overpowering challenges than anything else. Some of the fights and level segments can drag on a bit if you don't make full use of your arsenal and abilities (though I agree that the initial eight bosses are generally more fun to fight buster-only, saving weakness exploiting for the rematches - with the exception of Armored Armadillo who is kind of a tedious fight without at least blowing off his armor).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Licorice »

I definitely agree with that. If you imagine the stage select a giant elevator or something then yeah MMX becomes a "search action" game.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

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Yeah it might be a me problem, other than the game "feeling" bad to me, which is very hard to define and explain.

I guess I've hit a weird stage where i'm expecting success to fall in my lap without any work. EYE beat Ninja Gaiden and Castlevania 68k DON'TCHA KNOW!?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

To get the full enjoyment out of megaman you have to forego the use of e-tanks and sub tanks, or at least limit yourself to using them in the boss anticipation rooms. The big old health bar is pretty forgiving but it's limited enough that you generally have to take the games seriously.
Blinge wrote:I guess I've hit a weird stage where i'm expecting success to fall in my lap without any work. EYE beat Ninja Gaiden and Castlevania 68k DON'TCHA KNOW!?
I demand to speak to the manager!
Ah, yeah. Whenever I get into that mindset I don't have any fun at all.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Even though Ilpalazzo's description makes sense, that doesn't mean Mega Man X is a walk in the park either. It's not Magical Vacation Rockman, and at least to me it's definitely more challenging than any of the NES games.

And yeah, subtanks feel even more overpowered than E-tanks did in the original games, better not to use them.
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