Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
User avatar
Stevens
Posts: 3799
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 11:44 pm
Location: Brooklyn NY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Stevens »

Sima Tuna wrote:
I love arcade sports games and hate all other kinds of sports games. :lol:
Not into baseball at all, love Baseball Stars 2.
My lord, I have come for you.
Randorama
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:25 pm

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Randorama »

Sima Tuna:

I'd do it but I am wondering if we should also do something fancier, like indexing good posts and commentaries (as BIL does in this thread). I feel that am unreliable for this - I am on (forced) holiday so I am having enough time to play games and spam rubbish on this forum, but when real life intervenes, I may even forget to pass around and update the thread, if needed.

Let's say that I will think about it, but if anyone reading this goes on and opens it, I'd be really happy...though I honestly would prefer that driving games would be left off, since the thread could turn into a "driving games only" thread (sorry, but videogame-wise they are an overrepresented, vastly overrated genre of their own).

Steve: I liked both titles, and to be fair I also liked the other early sports titles on Neo-Geo (I remember an American Football title, something like "cyber soccer" and "cyber baseball", maybe a volleyball title?). Well, arcade and generally unrealistic sports games were often fun for me. For realism, i just hit the gym or go the stadium :wink:

Sumez: I think that I made a mistake: I actually played two ugly runs before getting the start. I reached Island 8, then Island 6, and then had a third credit in which I lucked out. The total of rounds played by that point should have been around 77 (30 or so on the first credit, 24 or so on the second credit --> bonus item on round 24 on the third credit). So, the star power-up should make sense. The second 1-CC was the first credit of the day, though, and felt like the CPU was spamming me with power-ups (or I was just meeting the right conditions without being aware of them?).

I am still a bit perplexed because I had another 1-CC this afternoon (!!!) (fourth attempt, and roughly 120 rounds completed beforehand). I ended with this definite feeling that the "Old version" in the MAME build I use (version 173 or so) should have somewhat lower counters for bonus items, compared to the "new version".

I'd certainly be curious to know more, if you can find anything. Besides, trivial observation: the version I played in MAME both max out at 10 millions (-10 points): wouldn't the counter-stop be 100 millions (-10 points)? I am getting this impression that I am missing quite a bit of the big picture (and for this game the picture is huge, isn't it?).

Roo: I am in a similar "predicament". I 1-CC'ed the Pac game with a friend, but I'd need to put some serious practice on worlds 4 and 5 right now, for a 1-player clear Today I tried a few credits and by ST 14-15 I basically had no clue on what I was supposed to do.

Dig Dug arrangement...I suspect that the boss(es) will be the key bottleneck(s), though the Moon (?) stages also still feel very demanding (just tried them again, before posting). I played this one upon release, but I remember giving up on going beyond the 17th or 18th stage, at some point, to avoid having nervous breakdowns in the arcade (ahem).

Frankly, my experience with arcade Namco games over the decades is that, irrespective of which team programmed a given title, the last stages would be designed in such a way that tight memorization & perfect, lightning fast execution would be necessary (e.g. the Mr. Driller series in general). I perceive a rigidity in their design of final stages that can cause...mouth-foaming-and-cursing-like-a-deranged-satanist moods, to my persona.

Case in point, Rolling Thunder 2 was a recently solved grudge that gave me a deep sense of elation and satisfaction once conquered...but I swear that I was ready to bite off chunks of the monitor after some attempts :wink: Let's see if my sanity points are high enough to enjoy the ride (...sorry for the lame Call of Cthulhu RPG reference).
Last edited by Randorama on Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8019
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Randorama wrote: Besides, trivial observation: the version I played in MAME both max out at 10 millions (-10 points): wouldn't the counter-stop be 100 millions (-10 points)? I am getting this impression that I am missing quite a bit of the big picture (and for this game the picture is huge, isn't it?).
This is the primary difference between the old and new version (again assuming only these two exist - I really should do some research).

The old version always maxes out at 9,999,990 (probably 9,999,999 if you used multiple credits).
The new version maxes out at the same amount, but if you get to the secret room on all ten islands, you will get a ridiculous 50 million bonus. This also breaks the usual 10 mil maxout, but I'm not sure when it actually happens. In ben_shinobi's counterstop video he breaks 10 million on island 7, I'm pretty positive that won't happen without meeting a requirement I have never met. Maybe getting the first seven secret rooms?
When I beat the game on this PCB, it entices me to get the secret rooms in order to get a higher maximum score.
User avatar
Vanguard
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

Rainbow Islands having a hidden method to exceed the score counter's usual limit is really cool. It's ideas like that that give Bubble Bobble and Rainbow Islands their unique sense of mystique. When you find about that and the shilver doors and how item spawns are controlled by player actions, it feels like anything could happen in those games.
Steven
Posts: 2870
Joined: Tue May 11, 2021 5:24 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Steven »

Today I decided to check out those extremely few playable Toaplan games that I have not played yet. Performan is kind of super awful, probably since I don't know what I am supposed to do, but fuck that game because it's time to forced to scroll to the right killing (already dead) motherfuckers; Horror Story is here!

I actually really like this game. Player sprite has a large amount of animation frames for the time and the music is pretty groovy, so you know it's already off to a good start. Just listening to the music in-game without checking who did the OST brings two composers to mind: Tomizawa Toshiaki and Ohta Lee. Sure enough, I checked and it was a joint effort between both of them. Damn, I'm getting really fucking good at guessing Toaplan composers without checking! They all have unique styles, and you can easily distinguish between them if you know what to listen for.

1P side's dude is a super stereotypical 80s dude with his 80s mustache and his 80s sunglasses, so as you can tell, he is obviously from the 80s. I wasn't alive during the 80s, so maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that everyone in the 80s looked like the Horror Story dude... right? Someone who was there can confirm this for me, I hope, but if needed, please just lie and say that yes, everyone in the 80s looked like the Horror Story 1P dude.

There are 2 different versions of Horror Story; one is an American western themed version, which is the one that I played, and the other I guess the other is in Asia, but I have not been able to successfully locate and illegally download this version yet. Hopefully M2 and whoever else that rereleases this game include both versions.

Notably, this game has a very odd combination of features: first, it seems to actually have both a regular shot button and a built-in autofire button, which is super weird for Toaplan. Second, it is the only game that I have ever played where you have a Castlevania-style fixed jump arc but can turn around in midair and go in the opposite direction but still have a fixed jump arc, a double jump, and the ability to kill enemies by landing on top of them. So, yes, it plays like Super Mario Bros. with a somewhat more flexible Castlevania jump that still requires you to commit to it and also a gun to shoot things with, but it also autoscrolls. It's a super weird combination of stuff, but it seems to work well. It's Toaplan, so checkpoints are here when you die. There are holes and shit to fall into and balloons to hold onto and move around while holding onto to kill things. Oddly, it seems you can't jump off of the balloon and must descend to the ground before you can jump again. Enemy placement seems pretty good so far.

Pick up some P icons and eventually you'll be able to take a hit and not die, as indicated by SHIELD appearing in the top left corner. Sometimes a weapon change thingy floats in and it will cycle through weapons extremely quickly, pause on one for a moment, and then cycle again. You have missile, 3-way spread shot, a laser, a weird short-range laser thing that sort of breaks when you use the autofire button, and a bomb that seems pretty fucking useless, so try not to get that one.

More time is needed for further analysis, but this game seems pretty great so far. Just a few minutes with it is enough to make me want to go buy a PCB, but then I remembered that my Astro's monitor is in the vertical position, so maybe not lol
User avatar
copy-paster
Posts: 1683
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:33 pm
Location: Indonesia

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by copy-paster »

Did NG3 JP No-miss last night as a warm-up of the real deal US version. Game is too laid back if you wanna go for 1CC also fire wheel at every single stage, and even then the timer is the same on both versions aka NO RESET! This led me to get one of best clutches moment on the final form of last boss :lol:.
Randorama
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:25 pm

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Randorama »

Steven wrote: 1P side's dude is a super stereotypical 80s dude with his 80s mustache and his 80s sunglasses, so as you can tell, he is obviously from the 80s. I wasn't alive during the 80s, so maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that everyone in the 80s looked like the Horror Story dude... right? Someone who was there can confirm this for me, I hope, but if needed, please just lie and say that yes, everyone in the 80s looked like the Horror Story 1P dude.
Great first impressions, Steven, but what really caught my eye and summoned in my fingers a holy duty to reply was this comment. So, yes, Calvin Harris created the ultimate response to any observation about the '80s in general (no idea why I found this version in bing as a first choice). I wish I had pictures of my uncle from the '80s, if we want to talk about moustaches (huge sunglasses, he still wears them all the time).

Jokes aside, Wardner is also an interesting platform/R2RKMF game by Toaplan (and, possibly, the same team). Both have really though final levels from what I can recall, though Wardner shouldn't have the near-continuous level transitions. I personally loved non-shmup Toaplan games unconditionally and *especially* Pipi & Bibis, but that one is a game for the "1-screen games" thread (play it first for the boobies, and return for the ultra-tough puzzles). They should also feature Lee & Toshiaki collaborations, so the vibe is the same.
Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.
User avatar
BryanM
Posts: 6116
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:46 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

Demon’s World is definitely one of the better Ghostbusters games. And yes, all late-30's white dudes looked exactly like Dan Aykroyd back then.

The level shuffle'ed up version is exclusive to the PC Engine CD, to my knowledge. It adds a ghost cowboy boss to the western stage. So that level's no longer neglected and sad; Bossless and forever alone.


(Konami's Devil World ensures that both of this game's generic names will cause confusion~ Which is a whole other game with multiple names, alongside lots more wacky changes between them)
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8019
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Steven wrote:Today I decided to check out those extremely few playable Toaplan games that I have not played yet. Performan is kind of super awful, probably since I don't know what I am supposed to do
Image
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 18989
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Excellent posting Steven, marked for index! Just a flying visit on my part, don't want to get too behind on the thread.
BryanM wrote:(Konami's Devil World ensures that both of this game's generic names will cause confusion~ Which is a whole other game with multiple names, alongside lots more wacky changes between them)
There's this Devil World, too! Image

Image

Really cool riff on dot eating. Devil is hawt, he could model for PerforMan! Rando recently did an excellent 1CC writeup on the Konami game, coincidentally. One of dozens I'm adding to the new index, which I've ingeniously procrastin - I mean, scheduled for the thread's 10th anniversary in a couple months. :cool:

RE: arcadey sports/action games - they're more than welcome here, well within the discretionary umbrella illustrated on the first page (via Kunio beaning some palette-swapped chump with a dodgeball). My attitude has always been, I'd much rather see quality posts made here, than never made elsewhere... and this being a megathread, it'll always be around, while historically smaller threads tend to naturally fall by the wayside (a lot of those are linked in this one's index).

Ultimately, it's about the papyrus, the scroll-ing action. As the intro says, if it's badass and could run on a Famicom, it's welcome here.
User avatar
BryanM
Posts: 6116
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:46 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

That's just asking for me to post Donkey Kong thoughts outside the lying Billy thread.

I used to think the American stage order was bad, since 98% of players would only ever see the barrels and girders stages. After putting more time into the game... well, maybe they're not missing much. In my imagination there's always this deep well (barrel) of possibilities with the game, all these cool and fun things you could do, that the GB game could really have 100+ Donkey Kong stages... but maybe there's not. Congo Bongo had to resort to using elements of Highway Crossing Frog/Crossy Road, etc.

Yesterday I got done with watching a video on The Story of Melroon... I think it might be around finally time I try some PC-98 emulation out. Always feel like games are stale these days. If I ever do, I'll be sure to make an effortpost here about Rusty.

The funniest thing about that game, is a youtube commentator claims to have the rights to it and was thinking about putting it on Steam. That... would be most unexpected if it happens.

I also really like old timey dev blowhards on youtube, like the guy who did a bunch of Mickey Mouse games/Sonic 3d Blast on the genesis. He made a developer's edition of Sonic 3d a bit ago to fix some of its problems; that's a real nerd doing it out of love and not just a stupid boring paycheck.
User avatar
Air Master Burst
Posts: 762
Joined: Fri May 13, 2022 11:58 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Air Master Burst »

BIL wrote:
Ultimately, it's about the papyrus, the scroll-ing action.
Now you're giving me PTSD flashbacks to that hilariously bad Burzum tabletop RPG that used Papyrus as the font for the ENTIRE BOOK.
King's Field IV is the best Souls game.
User avatar
BareKnuckleRoo
Posts: 6162
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:01 am
Location: Southern Ontario

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Randorama wrote:Frankly, my experience with arcade Namco games over the decades is that, irrespective of which team programmed a given title, the last stages would be designed in such a way that tight memorization & perfect, lightning fast execution would be necessary (e.g. the Mr. Driller series in general). I perceive a rigidity in their design of final stages that can cause...mouth-foaming-and-cursing-like-a-deranged-satanist moods, to my persona.
And the Mr. Driller games are, by comparison to a lot of other Namco titles, pretty damn forgiving.

Dig-Dug Arrangement's just brutal in general. Movement is stiff as expected, but if you die, you lose the powerups you've earned, and those speed boots are very, very helpful. Very demanding stuff. There's a list of powerups with specific Bubble Bobble style trigger conditions, and the only extend shows up if you've died and then survive for something like 13 stages in a row? It's quite grueling.

I suspect the key to a 1cc of Pac-Man Arrangement is getting lucky with the powerful items. There's some that are functionally a power pellet, and then there's random 1ups that... I have no idea if they trigger on a specific condition or purely RNG honestly. In all the games I've played I've only seen one, and it showed up quite early. Maybe someone better at Pac-Man can analyze the routes or something too. It's also helpful to eat the ghost that's always blue and be ready to camp at the portal as it spawns, because otherwise it tends to outrun you.
Steven
Posts: 2870
Joined: Tue May 11, 2021 5:24 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Steven »

I have a correction to make: Horror Story is Tomizawa only! Wikipedia is wrong (again); Ohta had nothing to do with the soundtrack.
Randorama wrote:
Great first impressions, Steven, but what really caught my eye and summoned in my fingers a holy duty to reply was this comment. So, yes, Calvin Harris created the ultimate response to any observation about the '80s in general (no idea why I found this version in bing as a first choice). I wish I had pictures of my uncle from the '80s, if we want to talk about moustaches (huge sunglasses, he still wears them all the time).

Jokes aside, Wardner is also an interesting platform/R2RKMF game by Toaplan (and, possibly, the same team). Both have really though final levels from what I can recall, though Wardner shouldn't have the near-continuous level transitions. I personally loved non-shmup Toaplan games unconditionally and *especially* Pipi & Bibis, but that one is a game for the "1-screen games" thread (play it first for the boobies, and return for the ultra-tough puzzles). They should also feature Lee & Toshiaki collaborations, so the vibe is the same.
Sure, thanks. I do like Wardner as well, at least until the last stage. Then it gets a little bit too awkward to play due to how tough the enemies are. I've been meaning to give it another shot, though. I'm definitely going to check out that Spy Bros Pip & Bibi's DX remake thing when it releases next week, too, but yeah, that doesn't really fit in with this thread.
Sumez wrote:Image
Oh yeah~ that's how you do it~ lol.
BIL wrote:Excellent posting Steven, marked for index! Just a flying visit on my part, don't want to get too behind on the thread.
Oh damn, looks like I did something good for once! I'll probably come back to it and do a proper analysis of the game later, but first I noticed that Shock Troopers is here. If Shock Troopers is here, that means that my beloved Out Zone can be here.

I don't have a way to record footage from my PCBs or anything else that isn't a PC, but the PC versions will let me do that, so I'm probably going to do a nice deep dive on Out Zone here in about a week or so, complete with PCB/MiSTer/Astro City Mini V/Steam/GOG comparison (I hope nobody thought I wouldn't buy all of them, because I am absolutely going to) and pictures and stuff.
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8019
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

I'm really confused about how memorization is gonna benefit anyone in Mr Driller :P
User avatar
BareKnuckleRoo
Posts: 6162
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:01 am
Location: Southern Ontario

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

I'd agree that Mr. Driller is more about quick reflexes and execution (a good eye for seeing quickly how pieces will drop really helps), but memorization does help to some extent. It's helpful to know what levels are coming up in Driller G for instance, so you can plan how aggressively to drop, if you can skip air because an easy level's coming up like the 2 color ones (doesn't apply on a scoring/air perfect run of course!). There's also stuff like the North Pole which has levels where there's NO air at all and you have to focus entirely on racing through it without trying to look for air. Knowing that kind of thing can be handy, even a game where the level layouts are randomized.
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 18989
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Steven wrote:
BIL wrote:Excellent posting Steven, marked for index! Just a flying visit on my part, don't want to get too behind on the thread.
Oh damn, looks like I did something good for once! I'll probably come back to it and do a proper analysis of the game later, but first I noticed that Shock Troopers is here. If Shock Troopers is here, that means that my beloved Out Zone can be here.
Hell yeah, Out Zone is more than welcome. Sidescrolling/Beltscrolling/Topdown, that's the three pillars of Hard Scrolling Action. Image

I still feel like a dipshit for calling Stevens' and kitten's Gun.Smoke and Psycho Chaser posts off-topic here, a few years back. :oops: Sorry frens. 3; I used to go nerd-militant for GS, Psycho, and Guwange etc ("ground-based verts") being on-topic in Shmups Chat - unlike Senjou no Okami, Ikari, and Shock Troopers etc ("push-scrollers"), which were gradually adopted under "borderliner" status. This all being well over a decade back; nobody's going to object if you make an Undeadline or Granada thread in main chat, nowadays, though Contra and Starfox will still ruffle feathers.

These days, I'm more inclined to welcome Gun.Smoke etc here, under similar "borderliner" rubric - even if I prefer to discuss them in Shmups Chat, just like I do Ikari ITT. In hindsight, Gun.Smoke being Full Shump (I'll still nerdfight about it! Image) doesn't deny its commonalities with Senjou and Ikari. The bi-lateral impedance of terrain being a big one. Obviously, Xevious's ground enemies have to obey rules re: water, buildings, and other impasses, too - but the player avatar doesn't! Mucho differentiated FEELZ, maaan Image

Cuba, 1959: Bloodbath at the corner of Ground-Based Ave. & Push-Scroller BLVD Image (just off 8-WAY DRV)
Spoiler
Image


EDIT: anyone jonesing for another loop of this should swap in Defender, Baraduke and Kaitei Daisensou as appropriate Image if Out Zone didn't legitimise push-scrollers in the main forum, Kaitei Daisensou should've :cool:
Last edited by BIL on Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Randorama
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:25 pm

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Randorama »

OK, what I really meant was...

If I recall correctly, the Driller games work like this:

1. You enter the pit (i.e. start a play), and the game selects a certain sequence of "block layouts" (=sub-sections of a stage with fixed layouts for soft blocks, hard blocks, hiding moles, and air capsules). I remember counting 4-5 layouts for each stage;

2. Depending on your performance, the sequence for the next stage (e.g. ST 2) is generated once you clear the current stage (e.g. ST 2). I think that the game has rank and rank influences which layouts are selected next, in a nutshell;

3. A "block layout" seems to be 2 screens worth of materials. This means that if the players know well a layout, they can go down quickly AND trigger enough block destruction reactions, and thus add more points thanks to those reactions. I am relatively sure that top scores require triggering screen-clearing chain reactions in this way (and some stages provide easy chains, right?);

4. The number of layouts should be rather big but finite. Let's just say that in Mr. Driller G, I remember learning 20+ possible combinations of the first stage and generally knowing when the game was giving me an easier or harder time. No recollection of how many more there were, though. Let's also say that a third of the time I would think "Ah-ah, I know this layout, let's pierce through it";

So, I wouldn't be surprised if the actual layout-generation mechanics are more complex than that, but my general impression (2 decades ago or so...) was that the game programmers wanted to avoid certain problems arising from how randomised levels could affect top scores. If you guys have actual proof that I am wrong, I'd be happy to read it (...I haven't read the Driler thread in ages, too :wink: ).

I of course believe that the games in this series are far more flexible than, say, the Rolling Thunder games (or titles like Phelios and Märchen Maze or Rompers, on which I poured tears to 1-CC them). Nevertheless, I cannot avoid associating Namco with "final stage! Get your drills sharp and flawless, you should know the exact score!" attitude, over the years.
Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8019
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Pretty sure every pattern generation in any Mr. Driller game is 100% random. This is the first time I've heard talk about it just picking from a set of only 4-5 seeds for each section. If true, that changes everything.
User avatar
BareKnuckleRoo
Posts: 6162
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:01 am
Location: Southern Ontario

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

And also, does it depend on the version? We know of some differences between the arcade and PS1 ver of Driller G, is level generation handled differently maybe if that's the case? Or maybe it's just a perception thing where certain levels "feel" similar to what you've experienced prior?

You'd need a lot of runs to do video comparisons to see if levels are truly identical.
Randorama
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:25 pm

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Randorama »

EDIT (here): I always believed that the "selection from fixed but large pool" was the game's model, to correct my previous post; a moment of excessive self-belief, sorry for the confusion.

Expanding a bit with an example:

If ST 1 of the 10-stages pit is divided into 4 sections and each section is selected from a pool of e.g. 10 possible layouts, ST 1 could result in 10^4=10k possible layouts, I guess (i.e. 10 possible layouts for sub-section 1 of ST 1 can then be followed by 10 possible lay-outs for sub-section 2 of ST 2...etc.). This could result in a remarkably large number of possible "whole run" layouts, right? (i.e. 10k^10k, I guess, for 10-stage pits?).

EDIT/CORRECTION: I remember that I could easily recognize 4-5 layouts for each section of each stage, at least on ST 1 and ST 5 (the "breather" stage?) on Mr. Driller G, after 100 hours or so of practice. At some point I had the feeling that I memorized around 40-50 versions of ST 1 that would appear frequently, though with minor changes here and there.

Alternatively, layouts may be indeed completely random, but the the game may eventually places hard blocks and air capsules in pivotal spots and according to certain configurations, so that players can develop certain heuristics in playing for score (i.e. go as fast as possible but trigger bigger chains for score, let hard blocks fall and lump together so at 4 blocks they disappear, collect all air capsules).

I have no idea on how many possible layouts for each stage a player could get, but at some point some repeating patterns should emerge (e.g. "first air capsule is appears at a certain set of spots, second air capsule..."). I guess that the feeling I had developed could also have been triggered under these conditions (it would be a simple Gestalt-like effect: similar forms blur into the same form when memorised).

Pure "random" layouts strike me as a choice that would annoy score-hunting players, for obvious reasons ("This lay-out is rubbish for score! Refund my credits!"), but if you guys can point to simple design choices/heuristics that I am overlooking, I would be curious to read.
Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.
User avatar
copy-paster
Posts: 1683
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:33 pm
Location: Indonesia

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by copy-paster »

Ninja Gaiden III US No Death run get!

Another tricky one, 5-2 and 6-2 is bullshit without the upside-down scythe subweapon. Aside from that the final stage is actually fun with fire wheel routing, that and you must race against the strict timer making it the biggest hurdle for nomiss. That run also shows how to kill the final bosses in like less than 20 seconds, thanks to fire wheel again.

One thing I hate in NGIII is when you get hit on the moving platforms while standing you get much prolonged knockback.
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8019
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Nice job! Really makes me want to revisit the game and go for a same thing. In many ways, NG3 is the perfect NES game in my book, and I owe it much more attention.
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 18989
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

copy-paster wrote:Ninja Gaiden III US No Death run get!
Congrats, bro! :o That one's an absolute motherfucker on account of the final stage's timer. R2RKMF at absolute redline intensity! Marked for index. :cool:
User avatar
copy-paster
Posts: 1683
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:33 pm
Location: Indonesia

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by copy-paster »

Thanks, you two!

Fire wheel routing is what motivates me to nomiss NGIII, final stage turned out like what I expected despite some miss jumps at 7-2. I like that powerups now are visible so no more memorizing all the weapon locations. Also clutched out that Act VI boss fight, all my luck spent on that shit! and that final slash cancels the falling projectiles at frame-perfect slash. :shock:

NG1 nomiss next but I save it for another day, back 2 shumppin.
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8019
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Oh fuck. Steel Assault is getting a physical release, but it's on LRG :(
User avatar
mycophobia
Posts: 751
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by mycophobia »

got a no death run on Mystic Warriors (J) with Spyros, which I've done before, but here I've got cool new strats and everything went perfectly, to the point where I clear with full health and lives:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfPvY1hTIJY

a good reference for that character i think
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 18989
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Superb, marked for index! Won't watch myself, but only as - like Violent Storm - I'm saving that one for later. :mrgreen:
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8019
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Maybe I should give Mystic Warriors a new try. I've watched some of Myco's older 1CC videos and got inspired to try out his strats, but man that river stage is just too annoying to me. The rest of the game is pretty straight forward, and I love the final stage especially.


Also, that ost....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFkQQOn5_8o

WHO IS NINJA? (*belgian rave plays*)
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 18989
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Everything is better with TECHNOUchi :cool:

EDIT: holy shit what the fuck :shock: I had no idea he worked on Dark Souls until this second! Times like this I know this is some kinda predestination, mayne :o Just like I know I'll go out getting hit by the garbage truck while jogging! :cool:
Post Reply