I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscellanies

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Marc
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Marc »

jepjepjep wrote:What's interesting about the Arthur's movement in Resurrection is that it feels nearly identical to the original AC Makaimura. Even the pronounced arm-swing running animation is like a high-res and more smoothly animated version of the old game. Same with jumping. I've been playing them back-to-back and they feel incredibly similar.
I agree with the animation, but there's still a perceptible speed increase when you jump that I don't get with the original.
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BIL
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by BIL »

Searchlike wrote:Also Capcom, please sort out your horseshit Arcade Stadium situation :evil: There, you're welcome, BIL!
ty Image
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Kinda disappointed in Ressurection tbh.

Between the overall level of difficulty on Legend/Knight (haven't had time to try lower settings yet) and the general pacing, it's pretty clear that the game isn't meant to be played arcade-style and that it instead goes for the meme Super Meat Boy bullshit difficulty balance where there's no real penalty for failure but you're expected to die on every 10 second segment a million times before progressing to the next checkpoint.

Not a fan of that.

Would've been nice if the game at least offered lives or something. There's a score counter but it doesn't seem to reset on death at all and only on full restart, which makes no sense to me.
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BIL
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by BIL »

^ That's a nagging suspicion I've had, watching streams. Seemed like very bitesized stage design. Which can work, and certainly doesn't preclude long-term mastery. Credits and savestates are two very different things to design action games around, however.

Admittedly, I don't care much about the future of this series, Dai already being one of the more immortally perfect sidescrollers. I'm more concerned they thoroughly fumigate Arcade Stadium of whatever's ailing it, because holy fuck it's not sounding good.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Yee. I'm not done with it yet though. There might be some solid assault courses buried in there, and I did sort of like some of the level design and attention to detail when it was pure run and gun. Will probably report back when I have a more decisive grasp of the game.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Wait, there's not a real arcade mode?
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by EmperorIng »

No, each stage is treated as its own with its own 'ranking,' which is kind of redundant as Squire noted since scores only reset on a full stage restart. I like the idea however of comparing the number of deaths you had on each stage attempt as a barometer of progress. There's no over all ranking page I've found yet which I find strange; I want to see all my stats.

I finished the first 'loop' and was feeling pretty satisfied. Astaroth gave me far more trouble than ol' Lucifer did - 19 deaths to Astaroth to maybe 2 to Lucifer! I held on to the bow and arrow for dear life through at least two stages. Both of those bosses (and Beelzebub) got some really nice redesigns, visually. Astaroth especially.

It makes me wonder how Goku was received when it first came out, because in terms of structure some people seem to say this takes a number of cues from Goku, but the levels are less sprawing.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Sumez »

I've only played the first stage so far (took me a whopping 129 deaths!), but man Ghosts n Goblins Resurrection is so much better than I'd dared to expect.
Playing on Legend difficulty, of course, because I can't have people thinking I'm a scrub. I plan on sticking exclusively to that difficulty at least until I've beaten the first loop, so my opinions will be heavily biased towards that.

I really dislike digital releases, so I wanted to hear other people's take before taking the plunge. This prepared me for the heavily non-arcade design of the game's structure. I'm not a fan of that design, and I can imagine it impacting the easier difficulties very negatively, so to make up for it I think it's great that Legend difficulty is so brutal that every individual checkpoint feels like a complete arcade game.

And damn does this feel like an arcade game in every other aspect that matters! Unlike Goku, I can really smell Fujiwara's return in this title. So many godly subtleties in the design of the mechanics and enemies that just work perfectly well together. Arthur moves exactly like he should, and hitboxes are greatly in your favor - which is necessary to deal with the constant onslaught.
There are a few things I disliked (such as the extremely trial-and-error based memorizer plants), but overall it amounts to nitpicks in what feels like a game that's much better designed than it had any reason to be. I'm taking a lot of notes, and I think I'll probably end up with a full review of each individual stage in this game :P

Image
EmperorIng wrote: It makes me wonder how Goku was received when it first came out, because in terms of structure some people seem to say this takes a number of cues from Goku, but the levels are less sprawing.
GNGR... I mean Kaettekita definitely doesn't have much in common with Goku. There are hidden "did you find the thing" objects in each stage, and you can go back and replay old ones. But Goku had the whole inventory and upgrade system which in the new one has been excluded to a single unlock system for Dai/Chou style magic attacks.
The bigger difference I think, though, is that Goku felt designed around this style of progress, which also heavily impacted the arcade styled "Kai" release, IMO in a very negative manner.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Necronopticous »

The first checkpoint in level 3 took me five hours.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Austin »

Anyone able to say if GnGR requires the analog sticks in any capacity? Curious if it's arcade stick friendly.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Necronopticous »

Works with stick or directionals/d-pad. A couple of my friends are playing with an arcade stick just fine!
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Mortificator »

Squire Grooktook wrote:Between the overall level of difficulty on Legend/Knight (haven't had time to try lower settings yet) and the general pacing, it's pretty clear that the game isn't meant to be played arcade-style and that it instead goes for the meme Super Meat Boy bullshit difficulty balance where there's no real penalty for failure but you're expected to die on every 10 second segment a million times before progressing to the next checkpoint.
That's... that's kind of how I end up playing the arcade games sometimes? :oops:

My interest in this game's cooled considerably after it's come out how heavily it's a remake of OG Makaimura and Dai, games I'm more than fine with already. I generally have a dim view of cannibalizing classics, even if it's by the guy who made them in the first place (e.g. that bitch Lucas).

And since Fujiwara and Goku were brought up, I have to say that as great as he's been with straightforward action games, I hate how he handles exploration. See also: Tomba.
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Sumez
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Sumez »

Mortificator wrote: My interest in this game's cooled considerably after it's come out how heavily it's a remake of OG Makaimura and Dai, games I'm more than fine with already. I generally have a dim view of cannibalizing classics, even if it's by the guy who made them in the first place (e.g. that bitch Lucas).
If that's your impression, then let me assure you it is by no means such.

Yes, it reuses stage themes and music, and lots of enemy types and bosses. At least superficially so. Although everything is familiar, nothing behaves like in the games they were lifted from. All enemies are tightened up to fit well into Resurrection's aggressive no room for even tiny mistakes, and constantly spawning onslaught of enemies. Leave a burrito ghost alive for too long, and it'll snipe you for sure. See that skeleton skull lying on the floor? Yeah, you can snipe it if you're quick, but if it comes alive, be prepared to catch it between jumps.
There's absolutely no lack of new unique ideas, settings, and insane stage gimmicks as well.
Mechanically it plays a lot like Dai, but what it demands of the player is very different. It manages to feel completely like Makaimura, while also being something entirely new, and I think that is commendable.

Basically, it draws on its predecessors in exactly the same manner Daimakaimura and Choumakaimura did.

My only real issues with the game are a couple of extraordinarily memo-heavy segments, and more than a few (effectively) autoscrollers.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Sumez »

So.... I've been to hell I guess, and now it's time to go back again.

Image

Beat the first loop of Resurrection today, all on Legend, with no difficulty reductions. Surprisingly that's enough to get a proper ending.
What a great game, really feels like it was designed for me. It's damn challenging, and beating any individual checkpoint is incredibly satisfying.


I'm scared to even set foot in the game's second loop.
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BIL
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by BIL »

Nicely done, this indeed sounds like hell :o Think I'm sold on the PS4 ver at this point, assuming it isn't in a freak gardening accident.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Sengoku Strider »

I didn't have any interest in this since I have a cart of Super that's been sitting there unplayed for months, but Dunkey might've just sold me on it:

https://youtu.be/g4Gpn2IzvJQ

It's kind of amazing how these games are now perfect for the 21st century streaming era without really having had to change.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Sumez »

BIL wrote:Think I'm sold on the PS4 ver at this point, assuming it isn't in a freak gardening accident.
Have they announced one is coming? A new release event could hopefully pave the way for a physical release. I'd double down on that with no hesitation.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Necronopticous »

I just joined Sumez. What a ride! A single checkpoint in level 4
Took me 6-7 hours and almost broke me but I persevered. Incredible game!
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BIL
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by BIL »

Sumez wrote:
BIL wrote:Think I'm sold on the PS4 ver at this point, assuming it isn't in a freak gardening accident.
Have they announced one is coming? A new release event could hopefully pave the way for a physical release. I'd double down on that with no hesitation.
TBH, I'm just assuming with Arcade Stadium confirmed for PS4/XB1/Steam, this'll make the jump too. The leaks some months ago said both would, at least. I may be horribly wrong Image
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Sumez »

Guys. I just noticed something important.

Image

Arthurs feet are behind the grass.
Arcade perfect confirmed.
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BIL
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by BIL »

I did hear XxX_AirRaidXX_XxXTREEM had secured his dream gig - Graveyard Topiary Consultant! Good to see a man's dream realised :shock: Now I know there will be no freak gardening mishaps in the porting process! Image

EDIT: I just realised I've only ever seen his forum threads, not the video itself.
This is one reason why there is NO SUCH THING AS 'ARCADE PERFECT', even with the near-exact ports to more powerful consoles.

some of the faggots on neo-geo.com forum and
digitalpress forum ARE OWNED because of their sheer stupidity and faggotry.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Udderdude »

So yeah, this remake is pretty good. Also did I miss out on yet another arcade scene wierdo?
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Sumez »

remake
don't do this to us XD
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Udderdude »

Sumez wrote:
remake
don't do this to us XD
Uh oh. Did I just unwittingly launch WW3?
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Sumez »

Damn, the first loop on Legend was just the warm-up. Shadow loop is the real deal. I've only reached the first checkpoint, and I'm shaking all over.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Playing through the full series for the first time for the first time in years. I revisit Ghouls 'n Ghosts pretty regularly but haven't touched the others in a while, and it's been fun to go back; I forgot how much I liked these. There's a real x-factor to them, some kind of great quality to their level design and enemy placement that I don't feel like other 2D action games - even other excellent ones - don't replicate.

Some scattered thoughts on them so far, pretty disorganized:

Ghosts 'n Goblins is less chaotic and unreasonable than I remembered it being (not to say I ever really thought it was bullshit, I did clear it years ago). Red Arremers have more weak spots in their patterns than I remembered, and though you sometimes can get unlucky against them, it's definitely possible to mitigate that with proper planning and positioning. That said, though they're a good enemy, I wish the game didn't overuse them to the extent it does. Probably a result of that anecdote about them actually having been the first character designed for the game or something.

The ogres are genuinely a good enemy with a lot of good applications. Having to deal with them sniping you from one level above, needing to get away from them and the ladder below you so you can crouch and take them on with the bullet-canceling cross, waiting for the right moment to climb up or down a ladder so you can take them out while dealing with randomly spawning enemies around you are all good. But I think there's just a bit too much randomness involved in them, and several cases where it can take a bit too long for them to get off the ladder so you can go up or down (the most problematic ones probably being the final one in stage 2 and the one near the endlessly-spawning tree spirit and blue imp in stage 5, though of course the sets of two ogres in stage 6 - cool escalation, incidentally - can be an issue too). It doesn't feel entirely well-tuned and bogs down the pace of the game a lot, which is unfortunate because it feels very strong elsewhere. Though I like them overall, like with Arremers, I wish they hadn't been used as heavily as they were, and it would have been nice if they were manipulable in some way.

There's not a lot I can say about Ghouls 'n Ghosts that hasn't come up here before. Thoroughly masterful game with basically perfect level layouts and enemy designs. The only thing that puts me off at all is probably the tree root bit in stage 1: when playing the JP version, the roots are just numerous and tanky enough to make the area feel kind of dragged out.

The Red Arremers are a great enemy in this game. It's not just that having vertical aiming and magic makes them easier to fight in a freewheeling way than they were in the first game, but that they have more weak spots built into their patterns (where they can't cancel out of their current action with a dodge - just like Arthur, making them feel like an appropriate rival character) makes them very fun to deal with. The Psycho Cannon is a fun development of the first game's cross, too. I love that it's more powerful than any other weapon but also has some noticeable drawbacks, giving the second loop its own distinct character but making it feel like a valid choice to stick with other weapons if you're afraid of the psycho cannon's particular weaknesses.

Knowing that the game was going to have selectable levels that would then completely change up the second loop really stings. It's still probably my favorite action-platformer as it is, but being able to completely transform the second loop would have really elevated the game to absolute perfection. (As it is, though it's a trademark of the series, I'm not really in love with the GnG tradition of having you do a second loop to get to the true last boss, largely just because there aren't interesting changes or meaningful difficulty increases associated with them (seemingly not the case in the newest one though). The original game and the PSP one at least have moderate increases and Ghouls suggests you use the Psycho Cannon to make the second loop a more distinct experience, which is something, but it still feels a bit flabby.)

Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts truly doesn't feel as well-considered as the rest of the series. I still enjoy it a good deal but I don't think it's excellent the way the other three are. It's a bit more bloated than any of the others - the previous games really make use of their arcade format and the natural playtime extension of the second loop so that you really are constantly encountering new types of terrain, stage hazards, and enemies in basically every segment of every level, constantly having new ideas and scenarios thrown at you. Super, by comparison, often feels repetitive and has a lot of bone-dry segments without much interesting going on - the ocean autoscroller in stage 2 is an easy target but I'd also point to the rotating tower stuff in stage 3 and the avalanche part of stage 6 as being kind of bland.

The weapon balance is awful. Of course you always want the dagger and cross / psycho cannon above the other weapons in previous games, when given the choice, so I'm not complaining that the dagger is the best weapon, but the other weapons simply aren't fun to use. Their awful rate of fire and weird trajectories turn the game into a slog whenever you pick them up. It also feels pretty bad that the lance is significantly inferior to the dagger this time around instead of just somewhat worse, and the lance's terribly low rate of fire once upgraded makes it feel like you've managed to downgrade it.

There are a lot of little elements that just don't feel thought out. The zombies dragging down the game while you wait for their coffins to finish spawning and opening is lame. Red Arremers having most of the weak spots of their patterns removed on top of your aiming being trimmed, along with their swooping attack being made much wider and harder to safely dodge and counterattack simultaneously, means you're just encouraged to wait for them to charge you on the ground every time they show up, which isn't interesting. The Goddess Bracelet feels like a very big downgrade from the Psycho Cannon, especially with how narrow and small its hitbox is in comparison, which just encourages you to keep using normal weapons throughout loop 2 instead.

The double jump is a really fun and very well-realized mechanic. I love all the different ways the game tests your knowledge of it throughout its runtime. I think it ties into some of the game's core weaknesses, though - the game being more platforming-focused than combat-focused (maybe a result of the SNES processor meaning they felt they had to build the game around slower-paced action?) makes it less replayable and less chaotic, which isn't good when you're looking at a game that has to be played through twice in one sitting to beat.

Astaroth and Nebiroth are genuinely good bosses, though. Fighting Astaroth with the goddess bracelet is a pain in the ass (Nebiroth isn't so bad in comparison) but they're up there with the better boss fights in the first two games. Most of Super's other bosses are really lackluster though. The first game's bosses are simplistic but generally have enough going on that they serve as pretty capable exclamation points to end their levels on, but Super's mostly just feel like they're about hanging back and taking potshots while the boss does little to menace you.

The first part of stage 2, the ghost ship bit, stands out as being one of the most enjoyable segments of the game. The ghosts are a really good, really threatening enemy type. I guess it's no wonder that the level was scrapped Ghouls 'n Ghosts content (I wasn't aware until recently that there are even remnants of the ghost ship's tileset - virtually unchanged from what we know of its appearance in SGnG - hidden in Ghouls 'n Ghosts' data). As said, though, the autoscroller is a pretty unfortunate way to kick off the game, despite its strong aesthetics.

I do think Super is pretty good overall despite basically all of my complaints being negative. It's just that the other games are so excellent that SGnG just being a solid game makes its weaknesses much starker. I wonder how much of its shortcomings could be attributed to series creator Tokuro Fujiwara having a producer role rather than a director and game designer versus the game being made for console first, leading to its developers letting it get a bit bloated and messy due to it not having to run up against arcade limitations.

Only given a few experimental credits to Goku Makaimura Kai, making it past the first loop, and this post is long as it is, so I'll maybe write a little about it once I've played through it too. It's got to be my favorite in the series after Ghouls 'n Ghosts though, just as I remembered when I initially played through the games early last decade. It's not quite the perfect successor to Ghouls 'n Ghosts but it truly is a high-tier sidescroller. Excited to give Resurrection a shot after that to see how I feel it shakes out, too.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Sumez »

Sir Ilpalazzo, I almost couldn't agree more with your general takes on the series.

Though I agree Super GnG does feel both longer and easier due to having a lot of dead time, I don't think it ever becomes repetitive. It's long but doesn't overstay its welcome even across two loops, and I think it's super enjoyable. One thing I think really highlights the differences in sensibility of that game compared to its predecessors, is the reapers in Dai vs the zombie coffins in Chou/Super. In Dai you can take out a reaper the moment you see it and maintain a brisk pace through the stage. In Chou you often need to stop up and wait to be able to damage the zombies.

The qualities you point out in Dai are absolutely spot on. This is what really sets the series apart, and I think if you haven't played Resurrection yet, you'll definitely enjoy that game a lot. It plays on all of the things that you highlighted as the strengths of the series, and really takes it to extremes. And surprisingly it feels like it ignores the existance of any games past Dai, feeling more like a direct sequel to that game. Fujiwara is also credited as both director and designer on this one, it really feels like he was very hands on with it. It even does the thing you wanted where the second loop changes up stages completely. And for people who don't like doing second loops at all, you actually get a proper ending for just doing one. But you'd be missing out a big part of the game. :)
There are a few places that become a lot more heavy on memorization than any of the older games (outside of maybe Goku), but overall it never sheds the requirements to constantly keep your wits about you and try to maintain assessment of the action.
Also, arremers have almost no weak spots in this game, which I also think is a little disappointing, but it meshes well with the much higher difficulty in this game. Arremers in this one is a major force to be reckoned with, and even the zako'est of zakos have been made a lot more dangerous.

PS: Astaroth+Nebiroth with the goddess bracelet is IMO one of the best examples of great boss design I can think of in this style of game. The way you need to pay attention to, and react to, the patterns and RNG in their attacks is absolutely brilliant. Every other boss in the game is meh, but that one is fantastic.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by jepjepjep »

That's a great post, Sir Ilpalazzo. I agree with a lot of what you write too. I haven't spent much time with Chou/Super or Goku but I've played the arcades ones a ton. Before Resurrection released I was playing Makaimura a lot and I have a newfound appreciation for that one.
Sir Ilpalazzo wrote: The ogres are genuinely a good enemy with a lot of good applications. Having to deal with them sniping you from one level above, needing to get away from them and the ladder below you so you can crouch and take them on with the bullet-canceling cross, waiting for the right moment to climb up or down a ladder so you can take them out while dealing with randomly spawning enemies around you are all good. But I think there's just a bit too much randomness involved in them, and several cases where it can take a bit too long for them to get off the ladder so you can go up or down (the most problematic ones probably being the final one in stage 2 and the one near the endlessly-spawning tree spirit and blue imp in stage 5, though of course the sets of two ogres in stage 6 - cool escalation, incidentally - can be an issue too). It doesn't feel entirely well-tuned and bogs down the pace of the game a lot, which is unfortunate because it feels very strong elsewhere. Though I like them overall, like with Arremers, I wish they hadn't been used as heavily as they were, and it would have been nice if they were manipulable in some way.
The ogres/big men are actually fairly manipulatable depending upon how close to them you are. Once you have some strategies in place, the chore of waiting around for their movements can be eliminated. This is how I approach the last one in stage 2. Once you descend the ladder to the platform above him, just stop and wait and he'll be walking leftward. If you keep a certain amount of distance, he'll walk away from you giving enough room to climb down the ladder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0qwJEQHHsA&t=167s

The one in stage 6 is a good trap, but you can come up with similar strategies to deal with them. I think the one you're referring to can be manipulated by walking to the right underneath him, which activates him to spit down at you, then walk to the left, which activates him to walk rightward giving enough time to go up the ladder. The timing is strict, but it works very consistently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0qwJEQHHsA&t=529s

One thing that becomes really apparent is that there's a huge difference between Makaimura and Ghosts'n Goblins (US version), and that is the behavior of the Satan enemies at the end of Stages 5 & 6. The Satan enemies in Makaimura can be dealt pretty fairly and consistently. But in Ghosts'n Goblins, they are way more aggressive and deadly, and they have twice the hit points. It's a huge jump in difficulty to find a way to deal with them.
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by jepjepjep »

Sumez wrote: The qualities you point out in Dai are absolutely spot on. This is what really sets the series apart, and I think if you haven't played Resurrection yet, you'll definitely enjoy that game a lot. It plays on all of the things that you highlighted as the strengths of the series, and really takes it to extremes. And surprisingly it feels like it ignores the existance of any games past Dai, feeling more like a direct sequel to that game. Fujiwara is also credited as both director and designer on this one, it really feels like he was very hands on with it. It even does the thing you wanted where the second loop changes up stages completely. And for people who don't like doing second loops at all, you actually get a proper ending for just doing one. But you'd be missing out a big part of the game. :)
There are a few places that become a lot more heavy on memorization than any of the older games (outside of maybe Goku), but overall it never sheds the requirements to constantly keep your wits about you and try to maintain assessment of the action.
Also, arremers have almost no weak spots in this game, which I also think is a little disappointing, but it meshes well with the much higher difficulty in this game. Arremers in this one is a major force to be reckoned with, and even the zako'est of zakos have been made a lot more dangerous.
Spot on analysis by Sumez here. I've only made it to Stage 1-4 on Legend difficulty so far, but this game is the real deal!
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Sengoku Strider
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Re: I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscella

Post by Sengoku Strider »

Sir Ilpalazzo wrote:Playing through the full series for the first time for the first time in years. I revisit Ghouls 'n Ghosts pretty regularly but haven't touched the others in a while, and it's been fun to go back; I forgot how much I liked these. There's a real x-factor to them, some kind of great quality to their level design and enemy placement that I don't feel like other 2D action games - even other excellent ones - don't replicate.

Some scattered thoughts on them so far, pretty disorganized:
This was such a good writeup it made me impulse purchase a copy of Dai before I even replied to it. Not even joking:

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I've heard for years people arguing one way or the other between Cho & Dai, but never seen it laid out clearly like this.

Now I just need to find someone who can explain the Virtua Fighter 1-2 vs. Tekken 1-2 debate. Another one people have always had stark feelings about, but not able to actually articulate.
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