I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscellanies

[Marble]

I suppose this game is above reproach because it is such a classic, but I think the game has so many flaws. There's a difference between challenging and downright frustrating. Not only is the difficulty brutal, but the gameplay is lacking, the collision detection is unfair, and most of the game's weapons are completely worthless. To make it worse, most of the time you're stuck obtaining a weapon because it's in your way and it won't disappear. While crouched, you can't turn around. The magic potion is the worst weapon. The sword is the most powerful, and I actually like using it more than the other weapons, but it's hopeless to fight the bosses with it.

Yeah, my biggest gripe with the game is the randomness of the weapons. It really can make or break your run. All of the weapons have their moments in different levels (the magic potion is sweet during the latter half of stage 4) but since you can't be sure if you'll get your ideal weapon back, it's better just to stick to one. I have had so many runs on the verge of the 1-All where I've been completely fucked by being bumped into a weapon I didn't want and situations where I've had to choose between dodging an attack and getting a weapon that ruins my run, or taking a hit and losing a life. It's pretty frustrating but everything else about the game is amazing.

The Mega Drive version is easier on the default difficulty - it even removes some of the environmental obstacles. On the harder difficulty they come back however, plus enemies take more damage and have different patterns. Should be pretty closer to the arcade in terms of difficulty.

[Marc]

I feel that way about Ghosts' at times, but I find the apparent randomness of the Arrears more frustrating than the weapons. Just something about it that keeps me coming back though. I will beat it this time, but I don't think I'll carry on to Ghouls when I've done so, that is plain sadistic in places. I did the first loop of the SNES one back in the day, but never had the patience to try for the second - first was lengthy enough if I remember correctly. Keep meaning to give the GBA iteration a proper good some day just to try the new (remixed?) stages.

[Edmond Dantes]

I never had a problem with the Makaimura games feeling "unfair." At least not the arcade versions (the NES port of the first one can go die in a fire though). If anything, it feels like they're giving the player every little benefit and deliberately trying to help you out. Getting to keep weapons when you die, unlimited continues, reasonably spaced checkpoints...

Compare that to, say, the Ninja Gaiden games on the NES--you know, the ones where you have to replay FOUR STAGE SECTIONS if you die at a boss, and where a hit only counts if the curve of your sword makes contact. Those are games that are only challenging because of cheap design. Makaimura is challenging, but it's legit all the way through.

[BIL]

There's no cheapness in the first two NGs (the time limit on the third's last stage is borderline unfair, otherwise it too is sound). There is no unforeseeable or unavoidable damage/death - if you get killed it's because you leapt before looking or otherwise failed to react appropriately. Yes, the sword has startup and recovery frames, so learn timing and learn to conserve the dominating subweapons for when you can really use them. The excellence of these games is their giving an adrenaline jolt to Dracula's methodical, lumbering action without leaving the player any less accountable for his mistakes. Flailing about and mashing the attack button will deservedly get you killed.

The boss rush knockback is a bit cruel, but it's also cool the developers would so emphatically tell players to GTFO until they can defeat the onslaught legitimately. Besides, any boss you've killed will be dead when you return. And these are cinematic games. It doesn't look good to have the hero drop dead and pop back up repeatedly at the climax.

[Ed Oscuro]

My experience of Ultimate GnG: Oh look - there's something shiny over there! (Two deaths later) I GOT IT!!

[Marc]

I really enjoyed Ultimate, the one PSP game I miss actually. Shame they're not playable on PS3 yet.

[Marble]

I never had a problem with the Makaimura games feeling "unfair." At least not the arcade versions (the NES port of the first one can go die in a fire though). If anything, it feels like they're giving the player every little benefit and deliberately trying to help you out. Getting to keep weapons when you die, unlimited continues, reasonably spaced checkpoints...

Compare that to, say, the Ninja Gaiden games on the NES--you know, the ones where you have to replay FOUR STAGE SECTIONS if you die at a boss, and where a hit only counts if the curve of your sword makes contact. Those are games that are only challenging because of cheap design. Makaimura is challenging, but it's legit all the way through.

That's all irrelevant to me because I play these games with a no-death run in mind. I'll go for the clear in Daimakaimura because those concessions are pretty fair for one credit play - compared to Ninja Gaiden where I might as well turn the game off when I die, or even if I lose the jump-slash. I always felt the NG is almost Gradius-like in that it has to be one-lifed, though it gives you all the tools you need to do that. It's probably harder to one life Daimakaimura because it is more random, but I'd say just getting the clear is easier.

I cannot fathom how random the original Makaimura must be, since it has the reputation of being much more unpredictable than Dai.

[Squire Grooktook]

You don't have to one life Gradius, you just have to avoid dieing at specific points like the plague.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I cannot fathom how random the original Makaimura must be, since it has the reputation of being much more unpredictable than Dai.

Ehhh, I haven't had too much trouble with the random elements. The fact that I can consistently make it to the halfway point on one credit as opposed to having to continue in other games much sooner should be an indication. But then again, it could be that I'm just being forced to play that way.

[Marc]

ST4 boss yesterday, though with a considerably lower score. Anyone know if the 10k item drops are patterned or random?

[Marc]

And what the FUCK is that shield weapon all about?

[Jonathan Ingram]

And what the FUCK is that shield weapon all about?

You have to kill the two Satan bosses at the end of stage 6 with it(on every loop). If you do it with any other weapon, you`ll be sent to the beginning of stage 5.

[J_Taishu]

I wouldn't worry about 1ccing Cho (or any other GnG really). Although a 1cc is perfectly doable, a 2all is insane on the original Snes version (the PS2 re release would be much easier.)

MD Daimakamura is one of the easiest afaik.

Oh, I'm not interested in pursuing the 1CC in the near future. Just interested to hear if anyone on these boards has managed it, and if so which incarnation(s) of the game? Both Chou and Dai are both rather brutal, which is probably why I find them fun in short bursts.

I've 1CCed Daimakaimura Arcade version around 4-5 times and I think I 1CC'd Cho once on the PSP collection. Cho is much easier (with the single exception of the 2nd loop stage 6 boss), fewer enemies and it's so long that I find it to be boring compared to Dai. Goku Kai is pretty fun, harder than Cho for sure, but it's also simply too long for me to really want to keep on playing after I cleared it a few times.

[Bloodreign]

And what the FUCK is that shield weapon all about?

In the Japanese version it makes more sense, the shield doesn't exist, instead it's a large cross.

[Edmond Dantes]

That's all irrelevant to me because I play these games with a no-death run in mind. I'll go for the clear in Daimakaimura because those concessions are pretty fair for one credit play - compared to Ninja Gaiden where I might as well turn the game off when I die, or even if I lose the jump-slash.

Okay, as bad as I found Ninja Gaiden, I never found it to be "Gradius Syndrome" bad.

I cannot fathom how random the original Makaimura must be, since it has the reputation of being much more unpredictable than Dai.

I don't know if its just the Saturn and PS2 ports, but I didn't find Makaimura to be all that random. If you pick up the flame, then the next pot will be the javelin. Ignore it, and then next will be the dagger. Hold onto that, the next weapon drops will be javelin, flame, and shield/cross, in that order. The only way you see any other weapon is if you miss one of the first three.

This is playing at default settings on either Capcom Generation 2 (SAT) or Capcom Classics Collection 1 (PS2). I've seen this pattern be consistent time and time again.

[gabe]

I don't know if its just the Saturn and PS2 ports, but I didn't find Makaimura to be all that random. If you pick up the flame, then the next pot will be the javelin. Ignore it, and then next will be the dagger. Hold onto that, the next weapon drops will be javelin, flame, and shield/cross, in that order. The only way you see any other weapon is if you miss one of the first three.

Droppin' science!

I'm stoked to give this another go armed with that info.

[CStarFlare]

Back when Hardcore Gaming Magazine was still in print, they held a score attack contest on their website for the first three GnG games. I grabbed a copy of the Capcom collection for PS2 and milked the graveyard spawns until I timed out. Won two out of the three (someone actually played Dai and did really well, so I took second ).

My prize was a copy of Ultimate, but I didn't have a PSP. Reading through this thread, I realized I still hadn't given it a shot, so I dug out my copy last night. This shit is great. I watched ben shinobi's 3/4 loop clears this morning and I'm loving the despawn tricks. I think I'll swing by the local games store today and see if they have the NES port of GnG for a decent price - Ultimate is cool but I want to give the classic formula a shot.

[Edmond Dantes]

The NES port... is kinda lame, honestly.

The graphics are downgraded (expected, but the NES could've done much better)

Some of the game physics/hit detection is completely different. In the arcade version you kill the bird if your dagger even lightly touches it. In the NES version you have to hit dead center.

And the pattern I mentioned to the item drops.... doesn't happen in the NES version. It really does feel completely random.

[Marc]

You don't need to pick up the shit weapons either, I've gone lance-dagger-shield without collecting in between.

[RGC]

.

[Skykid]

^ the crossbow all the way for me in Cho, it's the only thing that reliably deals with the arremers imo. Half the strategy is not losing the bloody thing. That's why the second loop is so insanely hard once its time to switch to the goddess bracelet: I spent more time trying to get through stage 7 with it than the rest if the game entire.

[RGC]

.

[Jonathan Ingram]

The homing crossbow is a deathtrap. Its shots have a tendency of getting stuck flying in circles for a few seconds every now and then leaving you completely defenseless. It`s an absolute no go for a 1CC. Stick with the knife instead.

[RGC]

.

[Bloodreign]

The NES port... is kinda lame, honestly.

The graphics are downgraded (expected, but the NES could've done much better)

Some of the game physics/hit detection is completely different. In the arcade version you kill the bird if your dagger even lightly touches it. In the NES version you have to hit dead center.

And the pattern I mentioned to the item drops.... doesn't happen in the NES version. It really does feel completely random.

The NES version also has a nasty habit of shitty weapons spawning (out of thin air) right in an area that you have to go (ala right on the bottom of a ladder that you must go up), they won't disappear. The trick I suppose is to remember the hotspot that'll trigger a weapon to just drop from out of nowhere.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah I have to agree that the homing crossbow, as dangerous as the flaws in the weapon can be, is still probably one of the most reliable weapons in the game in a number of situations. You may have to work a bit harder in other areas, but hey, that's called balance.

[Mortificator]

Skykid already touched on this, but I want to reinforce that strict 1-credit play isn't meaningful in games with well-spaced checkpoints and no bombs. Whether a player has just reached Ghosts 'n Goblins stage 6 loop 2 on his first credit or after continuing a hundred times, he's facing an identical challenge that takes an identical level of skill to get past.

I'm not surprised that Marc's still working on the first game after 20 years of one-at-a-time; he only gets the opportunity for actual practice a small percent of each play, the rest is just redoing what he already knows how to do.

[Marble]

Okay, as bad as I found Ninja Gaiden, I never found it to be "Gradius Syndrome" bad.

I don't find it bad at all - in fact I think it's the most fun way to play the game.

Skykid already touched on this, but I want to reinforce that strict 1-credit play isn't meaningful in games with well-spaced checkpoints and no bombs. Whether a player has just reached Ghosts 'n Goblins stage 6 loop 2 on his first credit or after continuing a hundred times, he's facing an identical challenge that takes an identical level of skill to get past.

That's only true if you're viewing each bit of the game as just something else to see. Does it take an identical level of skill to one credit a game as it does to one-hundred credit a game? Fuck no. You play however makes you happy but personally without the rush of knowing that I could die and the whole run could end, there's no excitement at all. Plus there's that feeling when you finally get good at the game, blasting through without dying in a game where you could so easily do so makes for a much more immersing experience and increases your feeling of power.

[Squire Grooktook]

Skykid already touched on this, but I want to reinforce that strict 1-credit play isn't meaningful in games with well-spaced checkpoints and no bombs. Whether a player has just reached Ghosts 'n Goblins stage 6 loop 2 on his first credit or after continuing a hundred times, he's facing an identical challenge that takes an identical level of skill to get past.

I'm not surprised that Marc's still working on the first game after 20 years of one-at-a-time; he only gets the opportunity for actual practice a small percent of each play, the rest is just redoing what he already knows how to do.

Disagree heavily.

One word: Consistency.

It definitely takes more skill to complete all challenges in a game back to back, without messing up once, then it does to do it in bite sized format, with no pressure and infinite margin of error.

Also what Marble said. Infinite continues = no excitement.

[Ed Oscuro]

Another single world: Pacing.

It's not impossible to break up a game so that it is very taxing on a player to attempt a section, but allow it to be finished. The issue of pacing comes down to how long the game is designed to be played in one sitting. With the handheld devices out now, you can surely choose to have suspended play or go to chunked gameplay (as in many online games), so it's just an open choice. They service different gameplay designs, but I don't see one as "better" than the other.