Mega Man Miscellanies

[Sima Tuna]

Gyro Attack is not that great.

Oh absolutely not. It's a decent to average weapon in a game filled with vastly underwhelming weapons, hence why it was Mineyl's pick in the MM5 Gadgeteer (boss weapons only) run as the first weapon to collect. I can't remember the annotations, but out of all the weapons in MM5, it's the one that works most reliably in a variety of situations, and also allows you defeat the boss it's weak to without any ammo issues in the stage itself, but it's certainly by no means good compared to other genuinely good weapons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9f_qkiJil0

Mineyl's got boss weapon only runs of all the games, and had very detailed annotations which since got destroyed by Youtube (hence why I'm a firm believer in hardcoded subtitles for posterity).

I will stan for Crystal Eye a BIT.

Bouncy weapons are cool in theory, but because you can't fire it at an angle at a floor or ceiling, its uses are limited largely to direct damage. It's Gyro Blade without the control. Its speed makes it considerably better than the near-useless Gemini Laser, a previous bouncy weapon which was slow as to be outright cumbersome (but does one-shot a few key enemies like the porcupines?).

I agree with your comments about the boss weapons feeling rather bad against the bosses they're supposed to be weak to, aside from Stone Man maybe (Napalm worked decently well vs Stone for me). Stone vs Charge Man can be awkward if you don't have Power Stone's firing arc memorized.

I can't say I like what the SNES era games did with boss weaknesses though. Bosses that were weak to weapons would not only take major damage but would go into a stagger animation that often interrupted whatever they were doing, meaning having the weapon specific to that boss REALLY trivialized certain fights. The NES games felt better balanced. Stronger weapons, but you couldn't get out of outright dodging attacks either unless your weapon was super strong against the boss as several are in MM2.

Interesting resource there with the gadgeteer runs. Shame youtube destroyed annotations. I used to laugh at quite a few annotated Tim B^Uckley cartoons which are now either removed or ruined because of the annotation deletion.

The thing with Napalm is the only way Stone Man can hurt you is to touch you (power stone is as useless for him as for you). The charged buster can hit him from anywhere on the arena. Napalm Bombs can only hit from short range. I found I was more likely to get hit when using the Napalm Bombs, although that could also be my greed at work. By MM5 standards yeah, it's practically a masterpiece of a boss weakness. I still think it's kinda bad though because it doesn't really gel with the boss. The explosions don't do anything to Stone Man's crumple i-frames. The boss counter weapons should ideally be something that counters the boss. Like how Air Shooter aims upwards to hit Crash Man. Or Tornado Blow removes Magma Man's fire. But at the same time, I do agree with you that boss counter weapons should not amount to an instant win button. I've seen boss fights of MM7 and MM8. Haven't played them myself, but I did notice the boss weaknesses allowed you to stunlock them from full to dead.

I finished MM2. I did pop down a save state in the boss door for that damn crash bomb boss. Fuck that thing. The final jump you have to make is so difficult I thought it was actually impossible. The amount of lag generated by the boss is insane and the knockback when you get hit by nearly-unavoidable bullets is so powerful it will almost certainly knock you off a platform if you are standing on one. No idea how that boss got past the testing phase. The technical performance alone should have convinced them to remove a few objects from the arena.

However, aside from that one speed bump, MM2 was great fun. I definitely underrated this game the first time I played it. I was overly harsh back then, probably because MM2 is over-praised in popular culture. But it's a damn fine game. A solid 8/10 or 9/10, docking a point for some shitty Wily bosses. Fun weapons, mostly excellent boss designs, enjoyable robot master stages (minus Heat Man and Quick Man) etc. MM2 is a nice length for replaying too.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Haven't played them myself, but I did notice the boss weaknesses allowed you to stunlock them from full to dead.

Yeah, this is basically what happens in MM7 and MM8. It's honestly quite dull to use their weaknesses a lot of the time. It also happens to several of the bosses in the MMX series (Spark Mandrill says hi), albeit far more toned-down. The Wily bosses at least don't suffer so much this way, but it's a shame since stages in MM7 and MM8 are fun at least. I guess you could do a buster only run if using boss weaknesses is killing the challenge for you.

The final jump you have to make is so difficult I thought it was actually impossible.

I don't remember a particularly difficult jump, but I think you're thinking of the one where you need to jump onto a ledge above you, starting from a ledge that extends out. The trick as I recall is you don't need to make the jump, just bust out Item 1 (the one that slowly floats upwards), use it to make the jump (you'll have to tank a hit most likely) and then switch to Crash Bombs.

It's a silly puzzle boss, made awful due to the lag. Once you know what you're supposed to do it's far less aggravating, fortunately.

I'm glad you had fun with it. The music in MM2 is top notch and is part of why it's so beloved, but it has some serious jank and on the whole I think the level design improved massively in MM3 and MM4 (and took a dip in MM5 but recovered come MM6).

enjoyable robot master stages (minus Heat Man and Quick Man)

Quick Man's beams are an acquired taste, and I can certainly understand not liking it. Heat Man's stage I'll actually defend, if only because I was previously in the same boat and thought it was outrageously bullshit without Item 2 to glide across the gigantic pit. As it turns out, when I decided to learn the block hopping sequence, it's actually 100% fair and pretty fun to do. There's no tricks like red herring bricks, and it's entirely a matter of jumping at the right time, with a couple of late straight-up jumps required. I'd recommend giving it a whirl sometimes just to appreciate it because it's a case of a section looking stupid at first glance, but actually being far more reasonable than it appears. More bark than bite.

[Sima Tuna]

The final jump you have to make is so difficult I thought it was actually impossible.

I don't remember a particularly difficult jump, but I think you're thinking of the one where you need to jump onto a ledge above you, starting from a ledge that extends out. The trick as I recall is you don't need to make the jump, just bust out Item 1 (the one that slowly floats upwards), use it to make the jump (you'll have to tank a hit most likely) and then switch to Crash Bombs.

Yeah, that's the jump. The final target for the last Crash Bomb is in the top left of the screen. You can't blow up the wall blocking it because you don't have enough ammo. So you have to hop up onto that ledge. You can use Item 1 *or* you can make the jump raw. I tried using Item 1 multiple times but kept failing due to the insane amounts of lag. I ended up making the miracle jump almost by accident.

MM2 has some jank, but I think the quality jump from MM1 to MM2 was phenomenal.

I think I'll try to clear MM6 next. I'm looking forward to this one. I'll probably go MM6, MM4 and then MM10 Normal or MM9. What I remember from MM6 is that stages, bosses and weapons are all really good except for Plant Man.

I don't know when I'll get around to MM7 and MM8. I technically purchased them as part of the bundle... So I guess I have to play them...

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Ah yeah, the lag is incredible, especially whenever they shoot. I seem to remember discovering it's easier to ignore the one at the top and just go kill all the easier ones first, so it's less laggy when it's time to make that jump.

Make sure MMV (the gameboy one with the planet themed bosses) is on your list to play. Instead of being a kind of rehash of previous elements like in the first four GB games, this one's entirely unique and is honestly on par with the NES games, even if it's not quite as long as some of them.

[Sima Tuna]

Ah yeah, the lag is incredible, especially whenever they shoot. I seem to remember discovering it's easier to ignore the one at the top and just go kill all the easier ones first, so it's less laggy when it's time to make that jump.

Make sure MMV (the gameboy one with the planet themed bosses) is on your list to play. Instead of being a kind of rehash of previous elements like in the first four GB games, this one's entirely unique and is honestly on par with the NES games, even if it's not quite as long as some of them.

Exactly what I did. It does help, but I found, much to my dismay, that Item 1 causes lag too. Especially if more than one of them are onscreen while the boss is shooting.

I'm curious to try that fight now with the Turbo function of the Legacy Collection activated. It should remove the NES hardware lag, slowdown and flicker. I turned Turbo off because it seemed to me like my input delay was made worse by having it on. Swings and roundabouts, I guess.

Mega Man V (game boy) is actually one of my favorite Mega Mans. I forgot to mention that one because it's not in any of the collections. I do have it on 3ds though. GB Mega Man V is fucking brilliant. Some amazing weapons and levels. It really feels like the developers of MMV GB were trying to evolve the classic formula as much as possible. I wish they had been given the helm to make more classic Mega Man games after MMV GB. The Stardroids were cool and it was nice to see some chances to the stale story formula.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minakuchi_Engineering

Hey, I never knew they were also responsible for the excellent Game Boy Bionic Commando, as well as the Snes Knights of the Round port. Game Boy Biocom is its own game entirely (separate from nes or arcade) and SNES KotR maps dedicated buttons for moves like blocking and backjumping. Which makes that game a lot easier to play.

[To Far Away Times]

The final jump you have to make is so difficult I thought it was actually impossible.

I don't remember a particularly difficult jump, but I think you're thinking of the one where you need to jump onto a ledge above you, starting from a ledge that extends out. The trick as I recall is you don't need to make the jump, just bust out Item 1 (the one that slowly floats upwards), use it to make the jump (you'll have to tank a hit most likely) and then switch to Crash Bombs.

Yeah, that's the jump. The final target for the last Crash Bomb is in the top left of the screen. You can't blow up the wall blocking it because you don't have enough ammo. So you have to hop up onto that ledge. You can use Item 1 *or* you can make the jump raw. I tried using Item 1 multiple times but kept failing due to the insane amounts of lag. I ended up making the miracle jump almost by accident.

MM2 has some jank, but I think the quality jump from MM1 to MM2 was phenomenal.

I think I'll try to clear MM6 next. I'm looking forward to this one. I'll probably go MM6, MM4 and then MM10 Normal or MM9. What I remember from MM6 is that stages, bosses and weapons are all really good except for Plant Man.

I don't know when I'll get around to MM7 and MM8. I technically purchased them as part of the bundle... So I guess I have to play them...

That part with the crash bombs is the only part of Megaman 2 that I don't like. The sole blemish on an otherwise nearly perfect game.

Mega Man 8 is actually pretty dang good. I've played through it a few times and I never understood the hate for it. It's got that CAPGOD era sprite work and animation.

Megaman 7 kinda sucks though. Even things like the walk cycle don't feel right and the size of the player sprite doesn't fit well in the levels.

[Sumez]

I rarely use boss weapons in any Mega Man games outside of the bosses who are weak to them, and maybe a few really obvious utility situations. I just enjoy the regular buster too much, so it's hard for me to really judge any of the games based on the optional subweapons.
I'll agree though that Mega Man 5 has some really tedious and annoying stages towards the end, which places it near the bottom of my ranking of the original 6 games, alongside the first. It's still a good game however. MM4 IMO has by far the best stage design, followed by 3.

Mega Man 7 is a real dud as most here have said, not really worth spending much time on. I remember actually enjoying MM8, but it's been a hot minute. I might not be so appreciative of it returning to it.
In general 7-8-9-RM&F has a real issue with the sprite size and the pace of the obstacles. It's funny because some of the Game Boy games overcame that quite well. Rockman World 5 is extremely enjoyable!

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

The discussion earlier about the versatility of some games' weapon sets over the others is a big part of why the first Mega Man is one of my favorites in the series. Almost all of its weapons are uniquely useful and powerful - Fireman's has that great protective shield, and its low ammo cost and power make it a good all-purpose weapon, Cutman's weird angle helps take out certain enemies and is a good substitute for Fireman's if you don't want to deal with him early, Elecman's vertical reach rules, and Iceman's freezing property is immensely helpful for Big Eyes, Sniper Joes, and Killers (the sinewave bullet bill enemies; freezing one will stop more from spawning as long as it's still on screen). Gutsman's is a bit lock-and-key and Bombman's stinks, but otherwise it's a valuable weapon set.

MM1 having one of the best final stage sets in the series helps put it near the top too. Even MM2 starts losing steam a bit in its last few stages (even putting the dogshit turret boss aside), but MM1 has both a perfect length - not overlong for a single-sitting session as the post-2 games become - and solid escalation. On some days, I might put it above even 2 overall.

[Sumez]

All the later NES games are around an hour for a full playthrough, I think their length are completely fine for a single session playthrough of a game with as casual a pace as classic Mega Man.
I'm not sure I've ever used a password in any Mega Man game.

[NYN]

Agreed here. MM7 is the pits, beware. And I'm into weird ideas, mostly.

I'm not sure I've ever used a password in any Mega Man game.

Uh-huh. I am feeling a-fresh to-day, so I can applaud your cheeky comment. If I wouldn't, the same line could rub me wrong, thinking of it as dick-ish, even uncouth. That's just me, though. I loves you, Sumez. Say, reading you conceding that MM5 has its lows is kind of stumping. I remember you champion it some back ago. Being the "best", no? I do because I re-played after that, to get my rub on, yet my opinion grew from it. So, you won't take this here ready feud gauntlet. Oh, man...

Let me make a saucy sentence myself (it has been said before):

Ahem. Classic Mega Man boss weapons are an imbalanced waste and no one should ever miss them. I sure wouldn't!

That said, I played through 11 Normal, sans the new hot button(s) that "makes-everyone-a-winner". I liked it enough, with some strong moments of goo' o' challenge. Most best Blast Man, in stage and boss. Worst best Block Man boss, so dull. Blast boss weapon fairly interesting, with cluster-bombs. The rest is re-hashed junk, as the others. Strong finish Wiley stages. Hard Mode seems take-no-hit-for-there-are-no-energy-pellets-EVER dumb n' dull rock n' roll. Whatever does youtubers.

I too am in the process of re-appretiating MM10. For the fun Hard Mode. To reach bosses to unlock for practice/challenges is my first step. Learn the new hard mode boss attack and integrate in own move set the next. Grand ol' time, fellas.

[Sima Tuna]

I rarely use boss weapons in any Mega Man games outside of the bosses who are weak to them, and maybe a few really obvious utility situations. I just enjoy the regular buster too much, so it's hard for me to really judge any of the games based on the optional subweapons.
I'll agree though that Mega Man 5 has some really tedious and annoying stages towards the end, which places it near the bottom of my ranking of the original 6 games, alongside the first. It's still a good game however. MM4 IMO has by far the best stage design, followed by 3.

Ahem. Classic Mega Man boss weapons are an imbalanced waste and no one should ever miss them. I sure wouldn't!

I'm a boss weapon enjoyer. I like the way well-made boss weapons can interact with the levels to change the experience. When handled well, I think the utility/power of the weapon vs its ammo usage can really add to the strategic element of these games. Particularly when a boss weapon can be used to skip phases of Wily machine fights, or reduce the tedium of waiting around for an opportunity to damage them. It's fun to discover unexpected ways boss weapons can circumvent a platforming challenge too.

I don't remember much of MM4's stage design. I liked Toad Man's level with the rain and water gimmicks though. IIRC MM4 was one of the first to introduce side paths and secret items into classic mega man.

I've heard a lot of good things about MM9. Seems like everyone ranks that one very near the top of the mega man tier list. Not sure how I feel about these newer games removing Mega's charge shot and slide. I can forgive it in MM10, because Proto Man is available on a fresh game start and he has them. But MM9 sticks you with MM2 Mega Man. No slide is a big step back in terms of player control, speed and level design.

[NYN]

I've heard a lot of good things about MM9. Seems like everyone ranks that one very near the top of the mega man tier list.

Everyone? No. Not speaking for Sumez, yet he maintains that Inticreates never "got it" what put the mega fun in the Mega Man. As everybody raves how MM9 put it back together: that "same old feeling". Very subjective. You can read all about it at lenght in this here topic.

I remember HG101( ) knocking MM10 mainly for the "crime" of following the re-redeem MM9 (BEST EVER) with the piecemeal pretender MM10. I cannot agree with that. Shows that whatever is the MM experience, it's next to impossible to satisfy the different players, it seems to me. And that's fine. I don't need the unity, I just want the funs. I dig every Skull Castle and Skull Machine design in every MM. Something about it. It spells B.A.D. Forget all about SIGMA Lucas references instantly.

[Sumez]

I'm not sure I've ever used a password in any Mega Man game.

Uh-huh. I am feeling a-fresh to-day, so I can applaud your cheeky comment. If I wouldn't, the same line could rub me wrong, thinking of it as dick-ish, even uncouth.

Excuse me what?
All I'm saying is that the Mega Man games are well balanced for single session playthroughs much like an arcade game, and are (to me) best enjoyed played from scratch every time. Most of the enjoyment comes from mastering the levels and learning the robot masters, not knocking your head against the wall until you're through once and then never playing them again.
Is that wrong? Do you disagree? In which way is it cheeky or dickish?

Say, reading you conceding that MM5 has its lows is kind of stumping. I remember you champion it some back ago. Being the "best", no? I do because I re-played after that, to get my rub on, yet my opinion grew from it.

MM5 has been in my bottom-2 out of the 6 ever since I first played it, so I'd be interested in where you picked up that.
Given, that's still the bottom 2 out of 6 really great games, so it doesn't make it a bad game by any stretch at all. I just don't enjoy it nearly as much as I enjoy 4 and 3.

Ahem. Classic Mega Man boss weapons are an imbalanced waste and no one should ever miss them. I sure wouldn't!

Now there's a hot take, but I'm prone to agree.
I mean, the games would probably lose a lot of their identity if you just got rid of them, and be worse from it, so I'm not sure I'd champion just taking that element out. But it's definitely not what keeps me coming back to the games either.
It's similar to my take about me not needing any type of build configuration or RPG elements in a Souls game. While that statement does reflect my take on the series, I also wouldn't claim you could just take them out and get a better game from it.

I've heard a lot of good things about MM9. Seems like everyone ranks that one very near the top of the mega man tier list.

I would not rank MM9 higher than any of the NES games, and like NYN said, I've said so many times in the past.
Of course it's a question of taste, but MM9 and 10 are a very different sort of game compared to the classic titles (despite looking similar on the surface), and whether that's good or bad depends on whether that gameplay style clicks with you. Personally I don't find it nearly as enjoyable.

As for removing charge shot, I can only see that being a good thing. As much as I love MM4, the charge shot itself did nothing to improve the series. The slide, however, is great.

[NYN]

Is that wrong?

No. As stated, it depends on the day how I "re-feel" about it. That sentence sure has a certain 'tude to it on it's own. Don't it?
Think of all the poor suckers who used the password (MAIN NEW FEATURE OF MM2) or save their game now after every stage.

Do you disagree?

No. I aim to 1cc some of them some time. Until then I save after stages.

In which way is it cheeky or dickish?

Only in the best way, the 'tude way!

MM5 has been in my bottom-2 out of the 6 ever since I first played it, so I'd be interested in where you picked up that.

Y'know, the memories... I'll look it up, just to prove any of us wrong!

[Sumez]

No. As stated, it depends on the day how I "re-feel" about it. That sentence sure has a certain 'tude to it on it's own. Don't it?
Think of all the poor suckers who used the password (MAIN NEW FEATURE OF MM2) or save their game now after every stage.

You're reading way too much into it
I don't think there's anything wrong with using the passwords. I just never felt them necessary, since the games are short enough. It's the same with Castlevania passwords. No reason not to have them.

[Sima Tuna]

Speaking of replaying mega man games... I've already finished MM5 and don't plan to return to it any time soon. But just for my own edification, does anybody know how you're supposed to no-hit the Chicken Walker hallways right before the final Wily gauntlet? I mean, you have to walk past these 2-3 different walkers and you can't step back at all or they respawn. If you get hit, you can farm a dumb cannon thing. But that's stupid and you can only do that for the first chicken walker stretch. The final AT-ST has to be cleared without a refill. Then you go into a 2 stage Wily fight and if you die, you respawn back at the beginning of AT-ST Hallway #1. So you do the whole dance again.

I'm just curious how you are even theoretically supposed to kill the chicken walker *without being damaged and without stepping backwards.* The only method I found to kill chicken walkers no-damage involved retreating whenever they charged forward. Which just respawns another chicken walker as soon as you kill the current one. After playing that game half a dozen times, I decided damage boosting past and drinking an e-tank in the Wily fights was probably the optimal play. The whole hallway strikes me extremely poorly, however. I assume there must be some way to play optimally but I don't know what that is. You can't retreat without respawning it and you can't take damage because you have a final boss to fight. So is this just bad design or is there a secret trick?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f20_tplxuPU&t=8s

I saw this youtuber do it no-damage and their solution seems to be screen scrolling while jumping with a held charge, firing it right at the second the walker spawns, then charging a second shot and firing that at the exact moment it's charged. Looks like a very tight timing.

[Austin]

I’ll play any classic Mega Man without passwords these days, but they served their purpose at the time. Seven year-old me was not anywhere near as good at Mega Man 2 as 41 year-old me. I used them all the time when it was new, as I am sure many others did as well.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Replayed Mega Man 3 for the first time in a bit. It's definitely a messy game - I think I might say it's the weakest of the NES games, except for maybe the tepid 5.

Its big issue is that it fundamentally controls worse than any of the other games. There's some kind of physics change that makes it so that you if you turn and shoot at the same time, you'll shoot before you turn, whereas it's the exact opposite in the other five games. This sounds like a minor nitpick, but it means the game is less responsive than the others and that you have to second-guess your actions a lot - the most straightforward illustration of this is the Heatman boss fight. Compare 2's to 3's, and see how much drastically worse 3's feels in comparison.

Sliding is a great addition to the formula, and the initial eight levels are totally solid. (I feel like there are a higher proportion of bum weapons than in MM2, which does hurt that aspect of the series, but magnet missile, shadow blade, and to some extent search snake are all useful and valuable.) But the Doc Robot stages being remixed retreads is a huge drag aesthetically, and only rarely offer interesting new enemy configurations; they feel more like padding than cool new levels. The Doc Robots themselves, while very cool in concept, totally suck to fight - they all have nastier hitboxes than the original bosses (good luck dodging Giant Quickman) in a game with less responsive controls, and I believe they have harsher health and damage values too; it doesn't feel like there was any consideration given to how these changes would change the fights, so most of then end up being a drag in comparison to 2's versions.

And then the Wily stages are a total wet fart, sporting a couple neat bosses but with basically no substance to their stages at all.

It's not bad overall; there's plenty of NES action games I'd put under it, but I think it's fairly far below the standard set by the first two Mega Man games.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

(I feel like there are a higher proportion of bum weapons than in MM2, which does hurt that aspect of the series, but magnet missile, shadow blade, and to some extent search snake are all useful and valuable.)

MM3 actually has a pretty decent proportion of useful weapons. I think the reason you're perceiving it as being worse than in MM2 is because none of the weapons are as absurdly powerful as MM1 or MM2's standouts, with one major exception:

Spoiler

• Needle Cannon is just a rapid fire upgrade to the arm cannon. The downside really is that it requires beating a fairly tough boss to get (Needle Man hits very hard and is probably the toughest robot to beat buster-only if I remember).

• Shadow Blade is functionally a toned-down Metal Blade. It's still extremely useful and one of the best boss weapons, but the range and firing limit make it far less overpowered.

• Top Spin is godlike in terms of damage and utility when you know exactly what enemies it affects and what enemies are immune to it. Anything it can hit will basically die in one shot aside from Shadow Man, and jumping into enemies makes it pretty easy to hit with. There's many extremely dangerous enemies that get rendered trivial with Top Spin such as the parachute guys in Shadow Man's stage, the monkeys in Hard Man's stage, the dragonflies in various stages, the hopping enemies that start low to the ground, the screws in Spark Man's stage, and numerous bosses.

The main reason Top Spin often gets disregarded is because you have to invest time learning/memorizing what it works against, but whenever you're up against a susceptible enemy it's the best weapon in the game, and is even better than Metal Blade was against those targets. No need to aim, just jump and spin to win.

• Search Snake is basically a rehash of Bubble Lead, except it can climb up vertical walls. It's still slow and limited to enemies on the ground if you're using it at a distance, but it's really not bad by any means and there's plenty of places to use it strategically. We don't get another good ground travelling weapon until MM6's Wind Storm, which moves much faster but can't climb up walls.

• Hard Knuckle is slow and you don't get too many shots, but unlike Gemini Laser it can be player directed up or down slightly and generally packs a wallop when it connects.

• Magnet Missile has underwhelming damage and high ammo cost. I can't think of anywhere that it's super useful to have, but the angled attacks are sometimes helpful for striking specific enemies. Gyro Blade is way better, both in ammo and player control. It's not terrible, but it's not great either.

• Gemini Laser is slow and cumbersome. Apparently porcupines are susceptible to it but if you miss a shot it can bounce around a long time without doing much, and it doesn't seem to do much damage to most enemies.

• Spark Shot is awful and is objectively worse than Ice Slasher which let you swap weapons while an enemy was frozen. Arguably the worst weapon in the game.

The Doc Robots themselves, while very cool in concept, totally suck to fight - they all have nastier hitboxes than the original bosses (good luck dodging Giant Quickman)

Agreed, the Doc Robots are a neat idea but are a tremendous difficulty spike. Also, the weapons they're weak to don't tend to work as well and aren't as easy to hit with compared to MM2's counterparts.

[Sima Tuna]

Mega Man 3's turning issues have been documented for years (decades?). There's some kind of bug with turning and yeah, it makes the game feel terrible to play. One of my most important Mega Moves for boss fights is turn-snap-firing out of a slide or jump. It always feels awesome when you pull off and allows extra damage between enemy/boss phases. I love the slide mechanic for so many reasons, and I like MM3's weapon layout, but part of the reason I'm not replaying MM3 right now is I don't want to deal with MM3's jank. Doc Woodman has some patterns which I believe are undodgeable due to the larger hitbox. The stage retreads are lame. Break Man sections are dumb.

[BrianC]

Mega Man 3's turning issues have been documented for years (decades?). There's some kind of bug with turning and yeah, it makes the game feel terrible to play. One of my most important Mega Moves for boss fights is turn-snap-firing out of a slide or jump. It always feels awesome when you pull off and allows extra damage between enemy/boss phases. I love the slide mechanic for so many reasons, and I like MM3's weapon layout, but part of the reason I'm not replaying MM3 right now is I don't want to deal with MM3's jank. Doc Woodman has some patterns which I believe are undodgeable due to the larger hitbox. The stage retreads are lame. Break Man sections are dumb.

Have you tried the Improved/Revamped hacks? I know they fix some of the issues. While I like the game itself despite the issues, it's telling that the game released with the beta tools left in.

[Sima Tuna]

Mega Man 3's turning issues have been documented for years (decades?). There's some kind of bug with turning and yeah, it makes the game feel terrible to play. One of my most important Mega Moves for boss fights is turn-snap-firing out of a slide or jump. It always feels awesome when you pull off and allows extra damage between enemy/boss phases. I love the slide mechanic for so many reasons, and I like MM3's weapon layout, but part of the reason I'm not replaying MM3 right now is I don't want to deal with MM3's jank. Doc Woodman has some patterns which I believe are undodgeable due to the larger hitbox. The stage retreads are lame. Break Man sections are dumb.

Have you tried the Improved/Revamped hacks? I know they fix some of the issues. While I like the game itself despite the issues, it's telling that the game released with the beta tools left in.

I haven't tried any mega man hacks yet. I'm considering the 8-bit demake of MM7 as well as Mega Man Rock 'n' Roll, as far as fangames go.

Unrelated MM6:

Finished up the robot masters in MM6. All in all, I really love what they did with the robot masters in MM6. The addition of the double theme (object + country) really works and allows the stage design to include a lot of interesting and atmospheric gimmicks. Flame Man's level is my new favorite go-to for a perfect mega man stage. It could maybe use a screen or two more of the burning oil platforming to punch up the difficulty. But that's fine-it's a perfect starting level on a fresh run.

The different paths work well too. You can totally do everything on a single run through the game, but only if you route efficiently. I've played MM6 casually and had a basic idea of which levels contained alternate paths gated by armor. So I didn't need to replay anything. Even with the energy balancer, you can go up the ladder, grab it and then go back down the ladder. So you're never locked out from the "optimal route" just to force replays. And if you don't care about the extra items, you can still fight the bosses in any order. All you lose is Beat and the energy balancer IIRC.

Plant Man's stage kinda sucks. I love the aesthetic, with all the cute little robot bugs. But some of the traps are mean-spirited. The penalty for failing to detect a noob trap in plant man's stage is usually instant death. Never fun when it happens to you. A few of the jet-powered hercules beatles are hard to avoid. It's a creative level-I just think it's a bit mean.

Every other robot master level, I have only positive things to say. I loved them all. I wish the cowboys were more frequent enemies in Tomahawk Man's stage and Knight Man's theming felt a little scattershot within his level, but that's about all I can say there. Wind Man being the China representative added a lot of flavor to what would otherwise be a generic sky level. Tundra Man's bomb platforms were such a clever idea subsequent games keep bringing them back.

Really fun game so far. The adapters are so enjoyable. I played the majority of Knight Man's stage punching shit and it was the best. Music is awesome too. The visuals are seriously up there with MM4 as some of the best I've ever seen on the console.

Edit: Finished up Mega Man 6. I enjoyed this one quite a bit. All the robot masters were fun except Plant Man. A couple of X and Wily stages were a little mean-spirited with the Jet platforming, but I was expecting that. The game would have been perfect with a couple fewer stages, but I get it. Value for money and all that. I was disappointed the burning oil gimmick didn't come back for the Wily stages. I would have enjoyed that much more than yet another precision Jet section.

Really excellent Mega Man game. Do I like this more than 10? Maybe. The armors add a lot to the game. Learning I could trivialize Mets with the punch suit was a liberating experience. Certain bosses can't do shit against a charged punch. Nailing the perfect charged punch to remove an annoying shielded enemy is so satisfying. The Jet suit is overpowered but balanced by high fuel consumption. Fuck up your Jet boost and you will 100% lose a life. I think it's generally superior to Rush Jet/Coil. Except in MM3 of course. The removal of Rush Jet and Rush Coil was a great move. It forces you to learn the jetpack and helps MM6 stand apart in gameplay from the previous titles.

I'll play through MM3 and MM4 again before deciding favorites, but MM6 was a very fun time.

[Sumez]

But the Doc Robot stages being remixed retreads is a huge drag aesthetically, and only rarely offer interesting new enemy configurations; they feel more like padding than cool new levels.

Mega Man 3 is one of my favourite NES games, and definitely in the top 2 of Mega Man games. It's kind of funny seeing people suggest the Doc Robot stages as one of the game's weaknesses, when I consider it a clear strength, and something I wish many more games in the series had done.

They basically reuse themes from existing stages, but up the challenges, relying on what you've already tried, but actually testing your skills this time. I think that's a great classic video game style escalation, which fits extremely well with the pick-your-own-stage-order design, rather than just ending in a linear gauntlet of unrelated stages.

The game's bigger problem (and arguably its only problem IMO) is how much the challenge drops back after those stages, rather than ramping it up.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Mega Man 3 is one of my favourite NES games, and definitely in the top 2 of Mega Man games. It's kind of funny seeing people suggest the Doc Robot stages as one of the game's weaknesses, when I consider it a clear strength, and something I wish many more games in the series had done.

They basically reuse themes from existing stages, but up the challenges, relying on what you've already tried, but actually testing your skills this time. I think that's a great classic video game style escalation, which fits extremely well with the pick-your-own-stage-order design, rather than just ending in a linear gauntlet of unrelated stages.

The game's bigger problem (and arguably its only problem IMO) is how much the challenge drops back after those stages, rather than ramping it up.

In theory I would agree with this. I don't think the Doc Robot stages, specifically, are bad mechanically or conceptually (having harder stages before diving into the Wily finale stuff is a good idea), and they do have some cool individual segments, but I don't think they offer enough interesting new scenarios to justify their existence as aesthetic retreads. That said, the extended Rush jet segment in Needle Man's stage is total dogshit, though to be fair it's no more so than the multiple parts in MM2's Wily fortress that require usage of a specific weapon and don't offer refills.

The big problem is that the Doc Robot boss fights suck, and the harsher checkpoints mean you can't really divorce the quality of the stages from the bosses. The MM2 refights by themselves make the stage revisits less fun than the first stretch of the game. (Again, look at how fucked up Quickman's massive hitbox is, or how awkward it is to fight Heatman without being able to instantly turn around when needed.) Also, though this is more an aesthetic and dramatic complaint than a mechanical one, I think it feels bad that the climax of the game in terms of difficulty is just these stage revisits, given how empty the Wily stages end up being.

-

Replayed Mega Man 4 for the first time in a bit too. I think the big strength of this one is how polished and even it feels. It's the first game to have what you'd recognize as the classic, exact Mega Man physics and controls (1 and 2 have some slight wonkiness with their acceleration, and 3 has its fucked up turning), and it has very solid stage design and boss fights all the way through, never faltering at some point as 2 and 3 both do. (Though I don't think the final Wily levels are quite as good as the rest of the game, they aren't anywhere near as spotty as 2's or as barren as 3's. The Cossack levels are the best final stage set since 1.)

I think its weapon set feels particularly weak, though, and more significantly, the game is so easy you hardly feel like you need to make use of them anyway. The level design hardly ever pushes you into situations where being able to fire at odd angles especially matters. (Pharaoh and Bright are both really good weapons, Dive is occasionally useful, Toad probably would be in a game that required it, but the others don't feel valuable or needed at all.) It's a completely solid game, but the lack of interesting decision-making that a good weapon set and harsher stage design would have promoted puts it below the first two games, though I think it stands above 3.

On that note I totally disagree with the upthread sentiment that Mega Man is better off when played buster-only, as someone who generally prefers fighting bosses without using their weaknesses. The strategic elements added by weapon management and stage order are both vital to the series.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

snip

I agree with all your points re: MM3's doc robot stages and bosses. It's really just the bosses that are a sore point, and the stages aren't too bad at all (though the Needle Man section is silly).

As I've argued previously though, MM4's is just straight up the strongest weapon set among the NES games (aside from MM6 if you count the Rush Adapters) and I've no idea how it can feel particularly weak when the only "bad" weapon is perhaps Skull Man's due to being a close range/barrier weapon that's not quite as good as Star Man or Plant Man's.

Spoiler

You've got homing missiles (Dive), a piercing boomerang which does modest damage but works well on large and shielded enemies(Ring), a multihitting projectile that's quite powerful (Dust), a powerful direct attack (Drill), one of the stronger screen hitting moves in the series (Toad), the best freezing ability in the series that lets you pump shots into enemies (Bright), and a charge shot with pierce properties that lets you get a free attack in if you manage to melee with it when you're charging (Pharaoh) which is almost as good as Metal Blade is, albeit requiring more finesse. You also have Rush in his various forms AND the hovering tool from MM2 returns in the form of the secret item Balloon, and the entirely superfluous Wire. And they all have relatively low ammo costs. It's nuts.

And yeah, playing it buster only would feel barren. There'd be no meaning to the stage order you select, either, as there's generally no advantage to beating one before another, except in games like MMX where some minor environmental changes to stages if a previous boss is defeated.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I agree with all your points re: MM3's doc robot stages and bosses. It's really just the bosses that are a sore point, and the stages aren't too bad at all (though the Needle Man section is silly).

As I've argued previously though, MM4's is just straight up the strongest weapon set among the NES games (aside from MM6 if you count the Rush Adapters) and I've no idea how it can feel particularly weak when the only "bad" weapon is perhaps Skull Man's due to being a close range/barrier weapon that's not quite as good as Star Man or Plant Man's.

Spoiler

You've got homing missiles (Dive), a piercing boomerang which does modest damage but works well on large and shielded enemies(Ring), a multihitting projectile that's quite powerful (Dust), a powerful direct attack (Drill), one of the stronger screen hitting moves in the series (Toad), the best freezing ability in the series that lets you pump shots into enemies (Bright), and a charge shot with pierce properties that lets you get a free attack in if you manage to melee with it when you're charging (Pharaoh) which is almost as good as Metal Blade is, albeit requiring more finesse. You also have Rush in his various forms AND the hovering tool from MM2 returns in the form of the secret item Balloon, and the entirely superfluous Wire. And they all have relatively low ammo costs. It's nuts.

And yeah, playing it buster only would feel barren. There'd be no meaning to the stage order you select, either, as there's generally no advantage to beating one before another, except in games like MMX where some minor environmental changes to stages if a previous boss is defeated.

Forgot to respond to your MM3 weapons breakdown, but I think you made good points there for sure as well. I definitely didn't make good use of Needle, and I can see how Top is actually good, though it does seem to require a lot of unintuitive memorization and trial and error before it becomes workable.

The MM4 set sounds powerful when described like that, but I think the problem is that the game is easy enough for those traits not to matter. Ring, Drill, and Dust were all weaker than or equivalent to just using charged buster shots - and I did repeatedly try using them throughout my playthrough, only to be consistently disappointed. The buster can handle anything directly in front of you, and there are almost no circumstances where being able to attack at multiple angles is even vital, to say nothing of the fact that Pharaoh is just flatly better than Dive (though if the game were demanding enough, this would make for an interesting resource management consideration still). The weapons may actually be really good, and that might be clear if you dropped them into MM1, but in MM4 they largely end up being less important (even in boss fights, generally - I'd buster-only all the bosses in 4 before 2, which otherwise is probably the easiest NES MM) just due to the lowered difficulty level.

[Air Master Burst]

And yeah, playing it buster only would feel barren. There'd be no meaning to the stage order you select, either, as there's generally no advantage to beating one before another, except in games like MMX where some minor environmental changes to stages if a previous boss is defeated.

Outside of the super obvious bits (MMX putting the dash in Chill Penguin's stage, MMX3's armor parts) MMX2's X-Hunters probably force the most stage order choice in the series for buster-only runs; although my knowledge of original recipe Mega Man is pretty lacking.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

were all weaker than or equivalent to just using charged buster shots

Oh, I don't disagree there. Without the charged shots they'd all have been fine weapons and there's plenty of weapons in MM1 to 3 that were far worse, but when you consider the charged buster, yeah there's not as much reason to use them. However, Pharaoh Shot is still second only to Metal Blade in terms of best of the NES boss weapons and is absolutely better than the normal buster is even with just straight attacks due to the massive hitbox, and Dive/Bright/Toad all have uses that make them valuable even with the charged buster available. Skull also has some uses but admittedly I've used it the least so I can't really speak authoritatively on it.

It seems like it was a matter of growing pains for them to figure out how to introduce charged shots while balancing boss weapons, but hilariously it gets even worse in MM5 where the charged buster is way better than every single weapon in the entire game, outside of boss weakness and some sections where busting out Gravity Hold can clear the screen. MM6 did a good job I think of balancing weapons even with multiple ways of using charged shots available. Flame Man's weapon always does huge damage and is very spammable, and the various other weapons have useful trajectories or properties (like Yamato Spear's gimmick of dealing damage to some shielded enemies). The normal charged shots are still a bit powerful, but they don't entirely obsolete everything else.

(you'll have to forgive me for harping on about weapon balance in these games, it's something that really interests me for some reason)

[Sima Tuna]

MM6 has really great weapon balance with/against the charged shot imo.

The charged shot is still good, but it's not better than Knight Crusher. The mace has a better hitbox and can be spammed. Silver Tomahawk can hit enemies and boss placed diagonally above you (which many flying enemies are.) The charged Power Mega punch goes through shields, while the standard charged shot does not. But the charged punch has very little range. You can't charge at all when using Jet Mega, which you are going to want to equip for tricky platforming sections (to give you a little leeway if you fuck up a jump.) Plant Barrier is pretty bad, but it's still a shield and there's at least one platforming segment where you really need it. Fire Blast deals way more damage than a charged buster shot if you spam it, and it can hit enemies diagonally below you. Wind Man's weapon travels along the ground and can hit enemies below you who might be out of reach of Fire Blast. Tundra Man's weapon uses too much energy but it does cover quite a few angles.

I've heard people say (on youtube and elsewhere) that they found MM6's weapon set disappointing. I just can't see it. Centaur Flash and Plant Barrier aren't very good (although plant barrier is usable), but the others are quite nice. You functionally get an additional weapon with the punch armor too, and it's a viable alternative to the charged buster. Certain opponents are much easier with punches than with the charged buster or boss weapons.

The armors also provide something for those "buster only" players to use, since their ammo isn't limited. If you want the ultimate challenge, equip Jet Mega for the combat sections and Punch Mega for the platforming.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I've heard people say (on youtube and elsewhere) that they found MM6's weapon set disappointing. I just can't see it.

I've seen it mentioned too in discussions elsewhere, and it's usually prefaced with something like "why would I use anything other than Rush Power / Jet?". It might be a case of they're coming from MM5 and used to using nothing but charged shots as its boss weapons are relatively useless... Just a bit of experimentation and they'd learn to appreciate MM6's toolset!