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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:38 am 


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Are we really discussing what an RPG is now?

I kinda want to address some of the things said about DQ1, but I don't think I want to jump into this parade.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:37 am 


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Vanguard wrote:
Either that or you go in the opposite direction and conclude that Doom and Bubble Bobble are RPGs.


lf only you could talk to these creatures, then perhaps you could try and make friends with them, form alliances... Now, that would be interesting.
- E7 Magazine's review of Doom, 1994

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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:58 pm 


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Vanguard wrote:
Fallout's combat is garbage and there's a lot of it if you're not doing a cheesed speedrun playthrough.


Don't you play a lot of turn-based dungeon crawlers? Just curious on the difference since the emphasis seems to be that "there's a lot of it" in regards to combat, where those are almost all combat? Just confused what's so garbage about the combat compared to most turn-based stuff?

Unless I'm wrong on the type of games you play. I admittedly scroll through a lot of stuff regarding dungeon crawlers and turn-based console RPGs (I keep wanting to say JRPG but I don't want to stir up more trouble!!!)
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:06 pm 


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drauch wrote:
Don't you play a lot of turn-based dungeon crawlers? Just curious on the difference since the emphasis seems to be that "there's a lot of it" in regards to combat, where those are almost all combat? Just confused what's so garbage about the combat compared to most turn-based stuff?

Unless I'm wrong on the type of games you play. I admittedly scroll through a lot of stuff regarding dungeon crawlers and turn-based console RPGs (I keep wanting to say JRPG but I don't want to stir up more trouble!!!)

Yeah I play a lot of turn-based RPGs, some of which are indeed almost all combat. I don't mind a lot of combat when the combat is good, but Fallout's isn't. The problem is that there are basically two tactics worth using. Either shoot the other guy as fast as you can and try to kill them before they kill you or, if they're a melee fighter, you spend most of your turns tediously staying out of their reach and only attack when it's safe. It's also a giant luckfest where you can get instant killed by a crit at basically any time. It's around the level of most Final Fantasies where you just attack until it's time to cast cure and that's the whole game. Even its fans seem to notice that it isn't a very good combat system - notice how every time they tell someone about the game they'll be sure to mention the 30 second segment where you can convince the Master to kill himself, but you'll hear hardly a word about the hours of mindless fighting.

I mostly play stuff like roguelikes where positioning and resource management are way more consequential than in your typical RPG. I like Helen's Mysterious Castle and Labyrinth of Touhou where controlling the timing of your actions is vital and you can't just apply the same tactics to every fight. There's also stuff like Etrian Odyssey and Demon King Chronicle where the combat systems themselves are nothing great, but the context surrounding combat keeps them interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:31 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
Are we really discussing what an RPG is now?

I kinda want to address some of the things said about DQ1, but I don't think I want to jump into this parade.


Do it. I'm done. I can't possibly imagine that anything other point can come up to sway me further from where I'm at, and it would take a monumental misunderstanding of something I already wrote to warrant a response to any of it.

I 100% pledge to drop it and stop going all Suez Canal on the thread.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:29 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
The point of that comment I made was that they knew those RPG tropes well enough to factor the Fantasy theme into what an RPG is. My main, overall point is that "Numbers Go Up," isn't an adequate description for an RPG.


Of course. I just wanted to lay down that Japan had a different initial point of mainstream departure for what an rpg was in the popular consciousness than the West did.

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No doubt. This whole argument is about whether or not "Numbers Go Up" can be used as the only the criteria to describe a game as an RPG.


Oh. I wouldn't make that argument at all. Numerical sustained progression is the mechanical core - that's why Dragon Quest is an rpg but it makes more sense to place Zelda games outside of Adventure of Link in a different category. But it's clear that unless a game is specifically aiming for a retro vibe, some sort of narrative progression is part & parcel of the rpg as well. The numbers seem to be the key point of distinction though - World End Syndrome involves much more role playing and narrative text than any Final Fantasy I can think of, but nobody places it in the rpg category.

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Also, one last thing. The map pictures you posted of Hydlide. Let's not forget that Ultima exists here. I see what you're trying to do with showing some progression, but both of those games could just have easily been looking at Ultima and making tweaks.


Oh, for sure that was in the background. Ultima and Wizardry both had followings throughout the 80s in Japan - Ultima III & IV both had Japanese developed Famicom versions. Wizardry I-III as well. In fact Wizardry never died off in Japan and effectively became a Japanese franchise in the 2000s, as it saw constant releases from Gameboy to Super Famicom, Saturn/PSX & mobile up through to the PS3 & Vita:

Image

The issue at hand for our discussion here is that they weren't very available in the period we're talking about. Ultima was on Apple II computers, which as mentioned previously weren't widely adopted in Japan at the consumer level. The market there was dominated by NEC's PC88/98 series, with the MSX format off to the side. Ultima II & III hit the PC-88 at the end of 1985. The first game didn't show up there until the end of 1988. The series didn't make it to the MSX, only showing up on the MSX2, a mid-80s machine.

The Apple II Ultimas are games about stick figures moving about a non-animated world, with what's happening communicated through truncated text window messages:

Image

Conversely, by the time we see Ultimas showing up on Famicom, the Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy influence is obvious:

Image

So it's clear what the standards for rpg presentation became based on there.

But the most important thing in the case of Hydlide is that we don't actually have to wonder. Hydlide's Creator, Naito Tokohiro, was interviewed in John Szczepaniak's Untold History of Japanese Games. This is the relevant quote, page 82 in my version:

Image

Creators from this period are pretty open about what a big deal Druaga was, and in turn Hydlide which was the first really big rpg hit in Japan alongside Black Onyx and...

Licorice wrote:
BTW missing in your analysis of the early history is Dragon Slayer!


Yep. First DraSle hit a couple of months before Hydlide, those are effectively the first two Japanese arpgs. I mentioned Falcom previously & name dropped Ys, but Dragon Slayer is a whole thing. Truth is I haven't been able get into those games, I have both volumes of the Saturn Falcom Classics Collection, but...eesh. Same with Sorcerian, another Falcom title that was a big deal in Japan but nowhere else.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:47 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
I 100% pledge to drop it and stop going all Suez Canal on the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:27 am 



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Sengoku Strider wrote:
Truth is I haven't been able get into those games, I have both volumes of the Saturn Falcom Classics Collection, but...eesh. Same with Sorcerian, another Falcom title that was a big deal in Japan but nowhere else.

Oh.

Yeah I want to get into Sorcerian, but the language barrier keeps me out.

But Xanadu is entirely in English (save the intro?). Have you tried that one out? I played it after playing Falcom's 2005 Xanadu Next, and was surprised the original (well Saturn release) played just as well if not better.

Sengoku Strider wrote:
Quote:
Also, one last thing. The map pictures you posted of Hydlide. Let's not forget that Ultima exists here. I see what you're trying to do with showing some progression, but both of those games could just have easily been looking at Ultima and making tweaks.

Oh, for sure that was in the background.

Well, the Hydlide guy did explicitly say he had never seen Ultima nor Wizardry before making Hydlide.

But in terms of Western influence I want to point out a few things:

1. There's also Might and Magic influence, e.g. Starfire was made on the same engine the developers previously used to port Might and Magic to PC-98. Starfire then influenced the early PS1 action dungeon crawlers (Kileak, Armored Core, Crime Fighters). Makes sense, as Might and Magic itself kind of became an action dungeon crawler focused on shooting more than anything - MM6 often gets criticized by RPG fans for being too Doom-like, but that's praise in my book.

2. Ultima mainly influenced pre-Druaga (July 1984) Heart of Fantasy (March 1984), which really was the combination of Wizardry and Ultima everyone (incorrectly, IMO) claims Dragon Quest was. But outside of this game, AFAICT, Ultima influence is purely cosmetic. For example, Xanadu gets cited as an Ultima clone because they literally traced the portraits from Ultima 3. But that's all they did. No unique gameplay elements were actually lifted. My impression is some Japanese certainly knew about Ultima, and some Japanese even might have played Ultima, but aside from them thinking it's this cool looking foreign thing, they were either confused by it or didn't think its game systems were well suited to Japanese audiences.

3. Black Onyx, while being a Japanese game for Japanese computers, was made by an American who just happened to live in Japan. There's also very different Western games which happen to have the same name, but those didn't matter in Japan. This one was very influential, as it (not Wizardry 4!) is responsible for the most JRPGish of JRPG mechanics - monster capture - and also influenced Hydlide.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:50 am 


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Vanguard wrote:
Even its fans seem to notice that it isn't a very good combat system - notice how every time they tell someone about the game they'll be sure to mention the [...]


You know, this forum has spoiler tags.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:56 am 


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I don't imagine there are a whole lot of people here who both want to try Fallout and have never heard of that ending. I don't think hearing about that really ruins anything either.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:51 am 


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Vanguard wrote:
I don't imagine there are a whole lot of people here who both want to try Fallout and have never heard of that ending. I don't think hearing about that really ruins anything either.


If anyone here is about to play Final Fantasy 7 for the first time, there's something you need to know about Aerith...
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:12 am 


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I started Pathologic 2 last night. I'm not sure at it as a game at the moment, but damn if it's not the most grimy, oppressive, creepy-ass game I've spent time with in a long while. Echoes Silent Hill 2 in that respect.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:13 pm 


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Licorice wrote:
Yeah I want to get into Sorcerian, but the language barrier keeps me out.


There was a Western release of Sorcerian for DOS computers by Sierra-Online. It even has MT-32 support.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:49 pm 


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Mischief Maker wrote:
If anyone here is about to play Final Fantasy 7 for the first time, there's something you need to know about Aerith...

I would be genuinely surprised if anyone here would be bothered by having that posted.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:14 am 



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Final Fantasy XIV is an excellent game. The exact MMO I want. It was amazing when I started playing games ... 21 years old as I saw on YouTube, I think I have never seen anyone that age. It's definitely an older game, but that doesn't mean younger viewers won't like it. In the beginning I made a lot of mistakes. I am now 25 years old and occasionally play games for family reasons, but I was caught up quickly and participated in many recent game heists and attempts. I started doing this a while before Stormblood came out. This story is really amazing. I have enough time to catch up with Heavensward. Shadowbringers expansion and the cap on the level is 80. It will definitely be difficult to start running, but with the help from SSEGold, new players join the game every day and you will never be eliminated. Past content is easier to complete and quick to search through. MSQ is boring, but it's definitely worth it. I don't recommend you skip any of these. The shadow man actually made me cry.


Last edited by Jannick on Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:20 am 


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More Pathologic 2. I dunno, it's just.... weird. I've spent a few hours wondering the map, being sent on quests that send me to do something bad to one person, trudge over there to have a discussion and be convinced otherwise, and, well..... yeah, that's it really. As of yet, it's a walking simulator with resource management, bar the odd clumsy fist fight. I've usually not a lot of patience for this sort of thing, but the world it's set in.... it's unbelievably atmospheric, even with the many rough facets, and I'm still genuinely gripped by the entire thing. Certainly not something I could recommend as a game, but something I do think everyone should try for an hour or two just to soak up the grimy ambience.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:45 am 


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Squad Killer, a Trash Run-n-Gun game which I'll be reviewing here soon.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:58 am 


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Vanguard wrote:
I don't imagine there are a whole lot of people here who both want to try Fallout and have never heard of that ending. I don't think hearing about that really ruins anything either.


hello! i'm one of them. I didn't even read up.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:22 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
Vanguard wrote:
I don't imagine there are a whole lot of people here who both want to try Fallout and have never heard of that ending. I don't think hearing about that really ruins anything either.


hello! i'm one of them. I didn't even read up.


Well if you're not set on a post-apocalyptic setting I will say that Planescape Torment does everything Fallout does better in terms of role playing and storytelling.

If you're only going to play one of them, I'd say Planescape.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:21 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
hello! i'm one of them. I didn't even read up.

Normally I wouldn't give this advice, but imo in Fallout you shouldn't hesitate to savescum. It's too buggy and random to play ironman or even with your own pseudo-checkpoints unless you're already familiar with the game.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:26 pm 


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Subnautica is the perfect marriage between minecraft and system shock that I didn't realise I wanted.
Get it while it's still free.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:24 pm 


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WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgames!


I've had this in a drawer for like, well, 17 years and never played it for some reason. I think I played the first level, got busy and forgot it existed.

Having lots of fun with the stories, and I really like the music on certain stages. So far my favorite is Kat's stage, with Dribble and Spitz being a close second. I'm at the very end of the game, but it's kicking my ass bc the Wario stage is kinda unfair. lol. I'll get it though.

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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:57 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
Subnautica is the perfect marriage between minecraft and system shock that I didn't realise I wanted.
Get it while it's still free.


Definitely seconding this. Subnautica has been my second major milestone in recent gaming, right after the souls franchise.
Grab it while it is free on the PSN.

Some spoiler-free tips for a good start :
* Turn off hunger and thirst management system at the beginning. Really secondary and annoying through the game.
* Explore Aurora as soon as possible
* Scan everything, especially ship parts.
* Follow the radio signal and explore environment around where it sends you. Almost Metroidvania progress system here.
* Build a basic habitat room, and lots of lockers into it, you want to store a lot of things for later.
* Build Seamoth as soon as possible (I had mine after about 10 hours on my first playthrough). Then dive deeper and enjoy.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:03 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgames!

Super addictive title. Very close to my ideal handheld game. I hear Twisted! is even better.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:08 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
Subnautica is the perfect marriage between minecraft and system shock that I didn't realise I wanted.
Get it while it's still free.


I didn't see where that is free anywhere. Not on Steam in the US.

There is a game called XIII on GOG that is free for the next 15 hours though I just noticed. Not sure if it's any good, but free! https://www.gog.com/game/xiii

Searchlike wrote:
Super addictive title. Very close to my ideal handheld game. I hear Twisted! is even better.


It's amazing. Getting a little close to rage on the last level though. I've made it to the final boss just to get killed like 12 times in a row.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:13 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
I didn't see where that is free anywhere. Not on Steam in the US.

There is a game called XIII on GOG that is free for the next 15 hours though I just noticed. Not sure if it's any good, but free! https://www.gog.com/game/xiii

I think there's some required newsletter subscription bs going on, unlike other totally free GOG games, not sure though. Subnautica is free on the PSN store.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:27 pm 


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Searchlike wrote:
I think there's some required newsletter subscription bs going on, unlike other totally free GOG games, not sure though. Subnautica is free on the PSN store.


If you already have an account, it's just a free game.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:31 pm 


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Ok, cool. Thanks for clarifying.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:31 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
Sumez wrote:
Subnautica is the perfect marriage between minecraft and system shock that I didn't realise I wanted.
Get it while it's still free.


I didn't see where that is free anywhere. Not on Steam in the US.

PSN, in the Play At Home section, at least on the EU shop.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:15 pm 


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Pretty sure it's global. Lots of other fun games in there, too, like The Witness, Astro Bot, Rez, Thumper and such.


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