What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[Steven]

I knew I forgot something; Lost World is how 3D Sonic art direction should be. That game looks beautiful, and I want more 3D Sonic games that look like that. I haven't played it much, but the gameplay is just kind of okay from what I remember. Steam says I played it for 20 minutes. I should probably play that some more as well.

[Air Master Burst]

I struggle to think of any video games that aren't at least better than Sonic Adventure 2.
Agreed with Steven, that game is a piece of garbage.

I struggle to think of anything SA1 does better than SA2 except art direction, and even that takes a hit on any of the non-Dreamcast versions.

Of course, I'd also take SA2 over any Mario that isn't Sunshine, so I probably just have bad taste in games.

[Steven]

SA1

has physics that resemble the 2D games, complete with increasing your jump height based on the angle of the terrain you are standing on, but SA2 does its own generic 3D platformer thing
Knuckles stages are way more playable than the SA2 Knux/Rouge stages
Tails is fun as hell
Doesn't feel like a miserable slog due to better pacing than SA2
has rad music in City Square
has 6 playstyles instead of 3, or 7 if you count Super Sonic separately
has all sorts of really cool stuff going on with the NPCs that you can talk to. Ultimately this is minor, but still interesting
has sequence breaking

I'll take SA1 and 2 over any Mario game too, but that's just because I find all Mario games to be incredibly boring. Well-designed, sure, but boring to actually play.

[NYN]

Oh, lookit! It's the annual RANKING OF THE GAMES WHERE SONIC EPICALLY FAILED!!1!, so it's that time again.
Now don't forget to hold your opinions ready for the next WHERE KIRBY IS A DOUCHE AND BLOWS AND SUCKS WAY TO MUCH. Looking forward to it!

Avoiding for so long it's own designated topics, along with EXCUUUSE ME, PRINCESS!!, the Zeldo revenge! it's easy to repeat it here, I figure.

Somehow I feel that's the price to pave for having these massive franchises still going.

[Sumez]

So I finished Crash Bandicoot 2, and it pretty much kept the same as my first impression.
Cool challenges like "beat the stage without destroying a crate" or speedrunning a stage was unfortunately left to a couple of stages near the beginning (the former literally only showing up once), while getting all the other bonus gems in the game mostly comes down to knowing weird arbitrary shit like finding an invisible teleport in a completely different, unrelated stage, that you've already seemingly completed all the goals in.
Some of the more fun challenges require you to take both the optional challenge road and the main path through the stage and backtrack through one of them. But finding the right way to go through really isn't fun, and I'd recommend just reading a guide for the right way to do those things, rather than fumbling around in the dark.

Overall it's still a fun game, but none of the added gimmicks are better than any stuff already present in the original game, ultimately just making it a less enjoyable one. I'll mark down Crash 2 being the generally more well liked game, to the fact that fans of the series are probably more likely to enjoy a plethora of colorful setpieces over pure platforming challenges. But even then, stage themes also repeat more often in the sequel, so despite more variation between stage themes, you also get more repetition within each of them.

I struggle to think of anything SA1 does better than SA2 except art direction, and even that takes a hit on any of the non-Dreamcast versions.

I wouldn't really bother arguing which is better or worse between SA1 and 2 admittedly, since they both feel kind of abysmal to me

[Air Master Burst]

has 6 playstyles instead of 3, or 7 if you count Super Sonic separately

I've legit never seen anyone list the shitty non-Sonic stories as a good thing before. It's pretty clear from the length of their stories and the fact that they only use recycled stages from Sonic's story that they were an afterthought to pad content, although at least Knuckles got a unique Chaos battle.

Doesn't feel like a miserable slog due to better pacing than SA2

SA2 has more unique levels and you replay them less often, while SA1 uses the same 10 levels for all 6 campaigns. SA2 even changes characters on you every level or so to keep it fresh instead of forcing you to play all 4 Big stages back-to-back.

I wouldn't really bother arguing which is better or worse between SA1 and 2 admittedly, since they both feel kind of abysmal to me

Even if you hate 3D Sonic you can't deny the blazing awesomeness of Chao Garden.

[Sumez]

I don't hate 3D Sonic, they managed to nail it with Generations.

[XoPachi]

Generations was sick. I play that game like every other day 12 years later still.

I knew I forgot something; Lost World is how 3D Sonic art direction should be. That game looks beautiful, and I want more 3D Sonic games that look like that. I haven't played it much, but the gameplay is just kind of okay from what I remember. Steam says I played it for 20 minutes. I should probably play that some more as well.

Lost World is a mixed bag. Its a solid game but it has too many annoyances to be great. The control in the console port is also oddly rigid. Its weirdly the hardest game in the series tho which...I guess makes it the first difficult Sonic game. Lol
The 3DS version has better control but the levels are horrendous after the first area.
I think the games art style looks a little *too* "clean" almost like an HD mobile game, but I understand what you mean and I greatly prefer it to Phantas- I mean Sonic Frontiers.

[ryu]

I don't hate 3D Sonic, they managed to nail it with Generations.

Sonic Generations is the game that got me to purchase a PS3 (my fist HD console... in like 2012). Surprisingly I ended up liking the daytime stages of Unleashed more though, although they lack the iconic aesthetics and play comparatively rough. I felt a level of engagement with those stages that nothing in Generations quite reached. It turned out to be a casualization of Unleashed's daytime stages, harshly spoken. Still a great game of course.

[Sima Tuna]

Generations wasn't for me. I mildly enjoyed it at the time, but subsequently going through the Genesis Sonics has soured my opinion on the game. I didn't like the 2d levels much and the 3d stuff wasn't as fun for me as the good levels in Adventure games. I don't like Boost gameplay and I guess that's the crux of my issue with the game.

I don't expect most people to agree, however. I generally do not enjoy any of the Sonic games except the classics and some of the GBA fare. The GBA games have their flaws but they are all pretty interesting. Sonic Battle and Sonic Advance 2 were my childhood games. I realize Advance 2 probably isn't very good by today's standards (especially compared to Mania.) It has the same problem of forcing you onto rails/locking your speed that some of the 3d games have. But I liked the air trick system and the sense of speed was unmatched. So unmatched that it was quite common to die because you couldn't see a jump coming. That's what I mean about rails though. With that kind of stage design, the levels have to be either toothless enough that a fuckup won't kill you, or else feel like major trial-and-error. Since you won't be able to react to pits when traveling at the intended high speeds. The air trick system did help to alleviate the memo somewhat, since you could save yourself from death with a timely air trick. But it was a band-aid over the bigger issue of speed combined with screen crunch. Mania being in 16:9 native is a massive boon for this style of game.

I would love to see the Sonic Advance games remade by a team like Christian Whitehead's in full 16:9 HD. Those games and the Mega Man Zero series would benefit tremendously from the removal of GBA limitations.

[ryu]

I'm with you on Generations's 2D stages. They're no good. Personally I almost excusively liked the game for its 3D stages. And yeah Sonic Advance 1 tops Advance 2 by miles, for exactly the reaosons you pointed out. I think Sonic Advance 3 was a bit better again, but I don't remember any of its specifics.

Sonic Advance and Rockman Zero remakes, done properly, would be amazing indeed.

[To Far Away Times]

Is Generations the one where rolling into a ball while going down hill in the 2D sections slows you down?

It's pretty obvious they didn't make a proper physics system, made the levels, and then just coded shit into the tiles to make it work. The game is constantly betraying it's own platforming logic, and it feels gross to play.

[Air Master Burst]

I'd love to see a Sonic Advance collection, although I really hope they would go through and make the special stages better, since that was always the biggest weakness of those games (well, that and some cheaply placed pits, but that's a Dimps specialty).

I don't think I ever managed to get all the emeralds in Advance 3 because requiring all the chao to even enter the damn special stages was just absurd.

[null1024]

Is Generations the one where rolling into a ball while going down hill in the 2D sections slows you down?

Yes. I'm 90% sure the spindash is so overpowered to counteract this very fact.

I'm with you on Generations's 2D stages. They're no good. Personally I almost excusively liked the game for its 3D stages. And yeah Sonic Advance 1 tops Advance 2 by miles, for exactly the reaosons you pointed out. I think Sonic Advance 3 was a bit better again, but I don't remember any of its specifics.

Sonic Advance and Rockman Zero remakes, done properly, would be amazing indeed.

Classic Sonic in Generations, while not unplayable, feels so bad. One really dumb thing is how sometimes, you'll end up facing towards the camera and just not move properly since you're still stuck against the 2D plane [seems to mostly affect the absurdly overpowered spindash]. There are so many easy fixes [potentially -- the Generations codebase could just be a fucking pile of ass and it's all a complete hackjob, I don't know] that just aren't there. Not rolling upon landing when holding down is the absolute worst, just completely denies the way Classic Sonic actually plays.

Advance 1 is a fantastic game. I do think it's a bit boring in the audio and visual departments, but mechanically? It's rock solid, and apart from how falling from a great height seems to cause Sonic and his friends to come to a hard stop horizontally, the physics feel great. Feels like a Sonic 2.5, with all the quality that entails. The absolute end of the game is a bit rough, but like, that's true of Sonic 2 as well

Advance 2 is a step up in quite nearly every way except for the most important, which has taken an absurd hyper-nosedive: level design. Every stage resembles Chemical Plant act 1, being a high-speed downhill jam, repeated over a dozen times, throw in a bottomless pit near the end of the level so you have to do half of it over again. On an audiovisual level, it's standout. Bosses kinda suck, although Sonic and Cream can both hyper-cheese them [in Cream's case, literally Cheese them ].
The physics when at low speed feel pretty similar to Advance 1, and I do like how the camera adjusts to show ahead of Sonic at high speed. R-tricks are a great mechanic that allows Sonic to actually make movement decisions when at speed.
The unlock system is unfathomably bad. Getting into the special stages is obnoxious. Unlocking Amy is 100% not worth it the hard way, I bloody used a fuckin' Gameshark code.
But yeah, those levels. I had fun, but it's hard to ignore the problems, especially after falling into a pit literally moments before the goal area and having to go back to the single checkpoint in the level.

Advance 3 has somewhat wonky physics all around and the level design is a mess. The stage design is more interesting and varied than Advance 2, but also kind of nonsensical and full of pits. The presentation is fantastic, the game looks great, sounds great, the map system is cool if a little dumb sometimes, I have so much good to say about Advance 3 despite my misgivings towards it. The partner mechanic absolutely saves the day with how busted it can be, and the absolutely bonkers stage layouts are fun to do stupid huge skips with. Some tag combinations just utterly suck for no reason, which is a shame. Loads of ambition, falls flat in a lot of ways, but it's just such a neat game. Getting all the emeralds was less bad than Advance 2, but like, that doesn't say much of anything. It is hard to imagine a worse system than Advance 2's for it.
1 >3 >2 is probably the right order.

honestly, I'm kinda thinking this should all go into a Sonic thread maybe

[Steven]

Sonic thread: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=71395

[XoPachi]

I'd love to see a Sonic Advance collection, although I really hope they would go through and make the special stages better, since that was always the biggest weakness of those games (well, that and some cheaply placed pits, but that's a Dimps specialty).

I don't think I ever managed to get all the emeralds in Advance 3 because requiring all the chao to even enter the damn special stages was just absurd.

The Advance trilogy is very special to me. I love those games. Getting the emeralds is hard as shit but I actually appreciate that about them. It's overtuned, but it's different and fitting to me. The pixel art in those games is some of my favorite in gaming and the control was just wonderful.
I don't know why Amy was so brutally difficult to unlock in 2 though.

[vol.2]

I finally got a copy of Armored Core 1. I figured I ought to better find one before 6 comes out and they go through the roof. Got a decent deal on a Puerto Rican copy of all things. Appears to be identical to the regular US copy, but the label has different details on it.

Just started really, but it's a fun game. Weird it never really popped up on my radar back then; I have always been a fan of mecha stuff like the Ghost in the Shell PS1 game.

[Sima Tuna]

If you like Armored Core 1, you will love Armored Core 3 and Silent Line. Some of the best mecha games ever created.

[Immryr]

It's amazing how right Fromsoft got armored core first time out. It's still one of the best games in the series. (ok i haven't played them all....)

[Marc]

Armored Core 4 or 5 on Xbox worth a play?

[Immryr]

AC 4 is OK, the sequel, For Answer, is really good. I haven't played V or Verdict Day but I know they were based quite heavily on co-op and online play. No idea how good they are to play solo

[Lander]

It's amazing how right Fromsoft got armored core first time out. It's still one of the best games in the series. (ok i haven't played them all....)

Yeah, it's mental how some series pop out more or less fully formed, X-factor in hand, where most others have to refine down to that point over the course of one or more sequels.

Monster Hunter is another good example; going back to look at the first game after getting into the franchise via 3 / 4 / World was kind of shocking, since most of the recognizable elements have been there all along.

Armored Core 4 or 5 on Xbox worth a play?

I'll put in another concrete accolade for 4A. My time with regular 4 was brief, but what I played of it seemed worthwhile.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Also on Dreamcast is Frame Gride, which isn't an official Armored Core sequel, but is certainly Armored Core adjunct (it's also pretty awesome)

[Sima Tuna]

It's amazing how right Fromsoft got armored core first time out. It's still one of the best games in the series. (ok i haven't played them all....)

Yeah, it's mental how some series pop out more or less fully formed, X-factor in hand, where most others have to refine down to that point over the course of one or more sequels.

Monster Hunter is another good example; going back to look at the first game after getting into the franchise via 3 / 4 / World was kind of shocking, since most of the recognizable elements have been there all along.

Armored Core 4 or 5 on Xbox worth a play?

I'll put in another concrete accolade for 4A. My time with regular 4 was brief, but what I played of it seemed worthwhile.

Monster Hunter has been straight fire since at least Gen 2. Freedom Unite was my jam on the psp. Sure, the claw was painful, but it had all the other elements. With a PSTV, you could even map the 2nd analog for full dual analog controls. Gen 2 on PSTV doesn't play that differently from Gen U on Switch.

[Air Master Burst]

I always thought A.C.E. was FROM's best mech series, although Chromehounds was pretty special too.

That said, I played the shit out of the first 3 AC games and their various expansions. Fantastic stuff! Nine Breaker is kinda brutal but will make you real good at AC.

Haven't played nearly as much of 4 or 5 or their revisions but I intend to remedy that eventually.

[XoPachi]

I did all of the content that I care to in Zelda. Its ok.
Lot of missed opportunities. But it has better set pieces than any other AAA title I've played in like a decade.

Infinite durability mod makes the game way more fluid and enjoyable.

[MehaffeyL]

Diablo 2 resurrected. Diablo 2 was one of my favorite games growing up. Having said that, I believe the resurrected version on Nintendo Switch is better in many ways. The cut scenes are much better than the original ones on PC. I am waiting for Diablo 4 now.

[BIL]

That's a pretty glaring tactical disadvantage, someone could run up and bum that dude before he knew what (or who!) hit him

Rectal health is an ongoing concern in the 41st millennium

Spoiler

Dedicated nurses laser in on the problem area



Proctologists follow up with a 12-gauge enema



Cleansing and relief

12-gauge enema, the best kind!

Speaking of, I was all set to begin administering palliative rectal buckshot in NIGHTMARE REAPER on PS4, but my goodness - it is fiendishly tricky to determine whether the bugger supports KBM. 3; I know for a fact PS4 Quake does, and it is amazing (all official eps + expansions, plus a rather nice-looking new one I've never played, more's the merrier) - but you'd never know it had glorious KBM support patched in shortly post-release, just from looking at its product pages.

Oh well. Imma message the devs directly and see if they can give any guidance. Will report back. Game looks rad as fuuuck, and drauch gave it his blessing, so I'm not worried on that front.

EDIT: Huh. I see PS4 Ion Fury apparently doesn't have KBM. It's a shame... I have this weird frisson when it comes to running PC-quality oldschool FPSs on console. Takes me right back to the mid-90s, when I was making do with chopped-down ports of PC and arcade stuff. Having both in perfect form on the same suitcase machine is ULTIMATE REVENGE. My dead NAM homies never woulda believed this shit! Yeah I know just build a gaming PC but that's not the point ;3 ;3 ;3

[Sumez]

Diablo 2 resurrected. Diablo 2 was one of my favorite games growing up. Having said that, I believe the resurrected version on Nintendo Switch is better in many ways. The cut scenes are much better than the original ones on PC. I am waiting for Diablo 4 now.

D2 Resurrected is a masterful remake, completely fills out the shoes of the original without feeling like a drawback in any way.
Out of everything it does, however, nothing beats the ability to now play the game casually on Switch.

[Sima Tuna]

I refuse to play D2 Resurrected because of Blizzard. I would be more inclined to give it a chance if there was a way to play without signing up for a stupid account. I hate that shit.