What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Stevens
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Stevens »

Mischief Maker wrote:but if Black Future '88 makes the list there is no excuse not to include Dead Cells.

Nex Machina: The best Robotron game since the original, doesn't hurt that Eugene Jarvis was involved.
Nex Machina looks insane. I was eyeing Tesla vs. Lovecraft a few weeks back, but I think I found a winner.

88' looks good, has pretty good ost, and most of the weapon are fun to use, especially melee. It takes so long to get going though.

I like it in small doses and I have got to be in the mood to specifically play it.

Have you tried Akane?
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solidus
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by solidus »

What do you all mainly use for game discovery for these types of games? For example GoG doesnt have an Arcade category. Enter the Gungeon on GoG is labelled under Shooter/Action/SiFi... which of course lumps it in with a ton of FPS.

Steam does a much better job with tagging it seems. I feel like so many games go under my radar simply because they arent on the front page of digital stores, or because I dont fully know how to search for the categories I enjoy.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Stevens »

Steam's daily discovery queue has been kind to me.

Set the tags you're interested in (it also makes suggestions based on what you own) and it does the rest. Don't care about a genre? Uncheck it and never see it again.

There is also a guy on YouTube - horheristo - who plays (and dismantles) arcade style games. Found some through his channel.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by guigui »

solidus wrote:What do you all mainly use for game discovery for these types of games?
Read the "What [not shmup] game are you playing now?" thread on shmups forum.

I'm also seconding Nex Machina as the definitive best twin-stick shooter ever. This one is truly a masterpiece with lots of action, dashing, strategy, scoring, bosses. Game is really comparable to the best shmups in the sense that there is so much improvements the player can make that the replay value is infinite.

Assault Android Cactus is also a very good twin-stick, more on the fun side. To me if Cactus is a 8/10, then Nex Machina is a total 10/10.
Cannot resist to post, again, a video of the ending of Cactus, starts at 4 minutes. Dont be disappoint by the kiddy chara-design, the game is really arcadey fun and tough :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuvGOQrSU9g
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solidus
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by solidus »

Stevens wrote:Steam's daily discovery queue has been kind to me.

Set the tags you're interested in (it also makes suggestions based on what you own) and it does the rest. Don't care about a genre? Uncheck it and never see it again.

There is also a guy on YouTube - horheristo - who plays (and dismantles) arcade style games. Found some through his channel.

You know Ive totally ignored that queue for a while... time to start curating it I guess :)

I usually prefer to buy DRM free games from GOG and similar when possible... but theres no doubt that steam is just the best in terms of content. I just always have this feeling that I may lose games from there at any moment... but its not realistic considering Ive had my account for over a decade. I guess Steam really isnt going anywhere anytime soon.
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solidus
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by solidus »

guigui wrote:
solidus wrote:What do you all mainly use for game discovery for these types of games?
Read the "What [not shmup] game are you playing now?" thread on shmups forum.

I'm also seconding Nex Machina as the definitive best twin-stick shooter ever. This one is truly a masterpiece with lots of action, dashing, strategy, scoring, bosses. Game is really comparable to the best shmups in the sense that there is so much improvements the player can make that the replay value is infinite.

Assault Android Cactus is also a very good twin-stick, more on the fun side. To me if Cactus is a 8/10, then Nex Machina is a total 10/10.
Cannot resist to post, again, a video of the ending of Cactus, starts at 4 minutes. Dont be disappoint by the kiddy chara-design, the game is really arcadey fun and tough :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuvGOQrSU9g
Wow thats quite a recommendation :) Did you happen to play Enter The Gungeon? It really i still one of my favorites in the genre but to be fair I have not played a ton.

I recently read the article about the Nex Machina devs leaving the genre and declaring it 'dead'. Really disappointing to hear. Seems like less and less folks like these types of games :( I guess we all need yet another online, multiplayer, battle royale :)
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Mischief Maker »

Stevens wrote:I was eyeing Tesla vs. Lovecraft a few weeks back, but I think I found a winner.
Tesla vs Lovecraft starts out great, but it falls apart in the lategame by, ironically, all the goddamn grind. I just tried Tesla Force, but it's in such a buggy state atm, I've gotta chalk it up to another studio releasing an unfinished game to stave off covid losses.

Anyway, Assault Android Cactus does Tesla vs. Lovecraft's "thing" much better.

Btw, one big point in favor of AAC over Nex Machina for some players is AAC has a proper implementation of crosshairs for mouseaim/keyboard controls, while Nex Machina uses a vague arrow at your little dude's feet.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by guigui »

solidus wrote: Wow thats quite a recommendation :) Did you happen to play Enter The Gungeon? It really i still one of my favorites in the genre but to be fair I have not played a ton.

I recently read the article about the Nex Machina devs leaving the genre and declaring it 'dead'. Really disappointing to hear. Seems like less and less folks like these types of games :( I guess we all need yet another online, multiplayer, battle royale :)
I did not play Enter the Gungeon a lot either, still waiting for a good bargain for it on the Switch. As I remember it, it does not have a gameplay nearly as precise as Nex Machina and AAC ; it plays more on the grind and roguelike vibe of the genre. I could never get really hooked by The Binding of Isaac either.

And yes, developers of Nex Machina left the genre after putting so much efforts in the game and receiving so very little rewards, sale figures were very bad. A real shame, but this is how post year 2K gaming industry works.
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solidus
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by solidus »

guigui wrote:
solidus wrote: Wow thats quite a recommendation :) Did you happen to play Enter The Gungeon? It really i still one of my favorites in the genre but to be fair I have not played a ton.

I recently read the article about the Nex Machina devs leaving the genre and declaring it 'dead'. Really disappointing to hear. Seems like less and less folks like these types of games :( I guess we all need yet another online, multiplayer, battle royale :)
I did not play Enter the Gungeon a lot either, still waiting for a good bargain for it on the Switch. As I remember it, it does not have a gameplay nearly as precise as Nex Machina and AAC ; it plays more on the grind and roguelike vibe of the genre. I could never get really hooked by The Binding of Isaac either.

And yes, developers of Nex Machina left the genre after putting so much efforts in the game and receiving so very little rewards, sale figures were very bad. A real shame, but this is how post year 2K gaming industry works.
For sure, ETG is not nearly as precise and is more about getting furthur and furthur by unlocking more and more stuff.

Yeah I think the arcade/shmup/etc genre needs to be handled by smaller teams with a smaller budget. Expecting to make a profit on a game like that with a team of 50+ people is likely not going to happen any longer. The good thing I guess is that games like this are really perfect for a solo dev or small team. Graphics and assets tend to be the big money sink in modern games, so simple graphics and music with a focus on gameplay can generally be done with a smaller budget I would think. But yeah, attempting to get AAA type sales on a shmup in 2020 is likely not reasonable. I think one way it could happen is if a large company used one of their side studios to produce it.. so that even if it wasnt a gigantic success they could at least absorb the blow. Sort of like how Ubisoft has the branch of the company that makes the Rayman games. Those games are never going to make as much cash as Farcry or Assasins Creed... but they have enough cash to be able to play with.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Mischief Maker »

solidus wrote:Witcher 3 is a great example for me. The whole game is based on you being a monster killer, yet the combat is so damn dull.
Give Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen a try!

It's like what you'd get if Dark Souls, Devil May Cry, and Shadow of the Colossus had a 3-way.

(Protip: Choose a Strider your first game; the fighter classes are much more technical, centered on perfect-blocking, and the mage classes are really more for your AI companions since they involve a lot of standing still and charging spells [with the exception of Magick Archer and Magick Knight]).

The top-tier magic spells are downright apocalyptic.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by solidus »

Mischief Maker wrote:
solidus wrote:Witcher 3 is a great example for me. The whole game is based on you being a monster killer, yet the combat is so damn dull.
Give Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen a try!

It's like what you'd get if Dark Souls, Devil May Cry, and Shadow of the Colossus had a 3-way.

(Protip: Choose a Strider your first game; the fighter classes are much more technical, centered on perfect-blocking, and the mage classes are really more for your AI companions since they involve a lot of standing still and charging spells [with the exception of Magick Archer and Magick Knight]).

The top-tier magic spells are downright apocalyptic.
Youre actually not the first person to recommend that game to me after hearing me complain about Wither 3 :) Its weird... I always feel bad when I say that I couldnt get into Witcher 3... the game has this following online where its just untouchable at this point. I always feel like a weirdo when I say I just couldnt finish it.

About Dragons Dogma... I think I just generally need a long break from those sort of games at this point. With limited gaming time these days... the only modern games I really have time for are the types of games weve been discussing (shmups, platformers, run n guns, etc.) Anything that requires 1+ hour to make any meaningful progress is hardly an option for me these days. I just want to get into a game and be right in the action these days. I think thats why Ive played almost exclusively retro stuff over the past year with the exception of a few modern titles. I can bang out a few levels of Castlevania or even a 3D Mario game and feel satisfied. 30 minutes of RDR2 or Witcher 3 was just about enough time to walk to a mission start and finish the dialogue :)
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Gamer707b »

I bought the Sega genesis Collection on Switch and playing through Alien Soldier. Always wanted this game, but as too expensive. Im on stage 15 I think. Also playing another great Genesis game called Ristar.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Vanguard »

I like Dragon's Dogma well enough for what it is, but its combat is only marginally less mindless than stuff like The Elder Scrolls. It looks good, it feels good, that's worth something. But it's still just a button masher.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

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Vanguard wrote:I like Dragon's Dogma well enough for what it is, but its combat is only marginally less mindless than stuff like The Elder Scrolls. It looks good, it feels good, that's worth something. But it's still just a button masher.
"Elder Scrolls?" "Button Masher???"

The Magick Knight's Shield skills don't even function without perfectly timed blocks. One of the dagger weapon's key skills is "reset" to cancel out of animations. Every vocation has timing-based core combos just like the Devil May Cry games.

What's more, larger monsters almost universally have a move or several to knock you on your ass if you try button-mashing in their face. Most require climbing all over them to stab vulnerable areas then jump off before they do their "wipe you off" move. And regular enemies often have location-specific weaknesses as well. If you chop a lizardman's tail off, they drop their weapons and become significantly easier to fight (but not harmless).

Are you maybe thinking of Dragon's Crown instead?
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

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I don't remember any grind in Tesla vs Lovecraft? I know you had various abilitites to sink points into, but I never found any of them necessary to finish the game (one of the few I've gotten a 100%/platinum on)?

Gungeon is odd, I enjoy it occasionally, but even with it's modified drop rates it can still completely screw a player over on a bad run. No up there with Isaac IMO. Nex Machina was brilliant from what I played, really need to get back to that. Got Assault Android Cactus and Jydge still waiting to be played on PS4, Akane in the switch queue, and also some Smash TV rip-off I just picked up (can't even remember the name of it at the min). Probably more on Switch, I keep picking up indies as they regularly drop to stupid prices on sale.

Played the first chapter of Resi Revelations 2 last night. It's... OK so far I guess. Entertaining enough but a long way away from Resi 4's finest moments. Can see how it might be fun to speedrun though,.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

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Mischief Maker wrote:"Elder Scrolls?" "Button Masher???"

The Magick Knight's Shield skills don't even function without perfectly timed blocks. One of the dagger weapon's key skills is "reset" to cancel out of animations. Every vocation has timing-based core combos just like the Devil May Cry games.

What's more, larger monsters almost universally have a move or several to knock you on your ass if you try button-mashing in their face. Most require climbing all over them to stab vulnerable areas then jump off before they do their "wipe you off" move. And regular enemies often have location-specific weaknesses as well. If you chop a lizardman's tail off, they drop their weapons and become significantly easier to fight (but not harmless).

Are you maybe thinking of Dragon's Crown instead?
No I'm thinking of the game where if you're a sword guy you spam dragon's maw until you're out of stamina and then you spam light attacks until your stamina is full again. And if you're a ranger you stand a mile away and spam the move that fires 11 arrows at once until you're out of stamina, then you spam regular arrows until it's back. Or if you're a wizard you stand a mile away and spam bolide. You can mix things up more if you want but the game certainly doesn't offer any incentive for it. It doesn't matter if the lizard has his tail or not when you're spamming dragon's maw because it's invincible. Doesn't matter if he has it when you're sniping from halfway across the map either. I mean yeah if you're not using those or masterful kill or magick cannon one of the other eight million ways to trivialize everything then you are better off doing your button mashing from behind so you cut their tail. That's still pretty mindless. Also if you mess up you can stop time and drink one of your 99 bottles of spring water to heal your whole team. Climbing on a monster to button mash on its weak spot is also mindless. The fact that the giant monster will eventually try to swat you and you need to jump off before he does helps a little but only a little.

It's funny to lift a goblin over your head and walk over to the edge of a cliff and throw him off. The rambling nonsense pawns spout is funny too. It's funny that you can play as a man wearing a dress, and if a troll sees you it'll get really excited and run up and grab you, and then get mad after taking a closer look. I like that the pawn system means you can meet Ganondorf and David Bowie while exploring Gransys, and invite both of them to join your team. It's cool that if you make a really tall guy he has better reach and if you make a really fat guy he gets tired faster. And it's cool that if your really fat guy climbs on top of a giant bird it won't be able to take off because he's too heavy. The combat system gives you a good number of fun toys to play with even if there's no real reason to use most of them. The high end sorcerer spells look and feel overwhelming to a degree few other games can compete with. There are cool monsters to fight and cool treasures to find. There's some fun exploration even if the world is way smaller than the insanely deceptive map suggests. It has its share of good points. But as an action game Dragon's Dogma absolutely does not compare to genuinely excellent action RPGs like Bloodborne and Oath in Felghana.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

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Vanguard wrote:I like Dragon's Dogma well enough for what it is, but its combat is only marginally less mindless than stuff like The Elder Scrolls. It looks good, it feels good, that's worth something. But it's still just a button masher.
Dragon's Dogma combat isn't the most involving thing in the world, but it's a billion times more satisfying than anything in Elder Scrolls. :)
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

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Sumez wrote:Dragon's Dogma combat isn't the most involving thing in the world, but it's a billion times more satisfying than anything in Elder Scrolls. :)
A billion times more satisfying and about 20% more tactical, yes.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Mischief Maker »

If you said DD was unbalanced because of cheese-able moves/consumable, I'd have agreed with you. That does not mean the combat is as simple as Elder Scrolls. Besides, these moves you're describing are end-of-the-skill-tree late game abilities, it's not like a player is going to be spamming Dragon's Maw from the start.
Marc wrote:I don't remember any grind in Tesla vs Lovecraft? I know you had various abilitites to sink points into, but I never found any of them necessary to finish the game (one of the few I've gotten a 100%/platinum on)?
Did you do this before they added the New Game + difficulties? Because eventually it becomes all about permanent upgrades from those goddamn aether crystals and epic perks or you just won't have the damage output to keep up with the hordes. And getting a decent enough supply of aether crystals requires waiting 24 hours of real time for a new set of daily quests to spawn; as if this were a frigging free-to-play smartphone game.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Marc »

Mischief Maker wrote:Did you do this before they added the New Game + difficulties? Because eventually it becomes all about permanent upgrades from those goddamn aether crystals and epic perks or you just won't have the damage output to keep up with the hordes. And getting a decent enough supply of aether crystals requires waiting 24 hours of real time for a new set of daily quests to spawn; as if this were a frigging free-to-play smartphone game.
I guess I must have, as I don't remember anything as shitty as that. I just rinsed at and put it to once side, as it had gotten slightly tedious by then - it's fun because of the numbers it throws at you, but the loop of get parts / use mech to murder / rinse / repeat got a little old.

Dragon's Dogma has long been in the 'to play' pile. Maybe I'll go for that rather than banging my head against Sekiro :D

Agree with your assessment of combat in ES though, well, that and Fallout. Huge worlds with some good stuff going on, completely ruined by their floaty, ineffective, shitty combat. Tried Skyrim in VR and it was astonishing, even on a base PS4, but the moment I had to engage with the game properly I lost all interest.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Mischief Maker »

Marc wrote:Dragon's Dogma has long been in the 'to play' pile. Maybe I'll go for that rather than banging my head against Sekiro :D
If you do, another protip is that the game's meant for you to focus on one of the 3 hybrid classes (Magick Archer, Magick Knight, Assassin) that your AI companions don't have access to. That way you won't be tempted to spam Dragon's Maw (not available to hybrids) a move I think is OP because it's meant for AI use.

Another protip: giving your AI pawns pickaxes and other gathering tools allows them to massively speed up resource gathering automatically for you.
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Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by solidus »

I really love the ES games. Morrowind is just so damn good. But yes the combat is super floaty. That game engine just has awful physics. There is 0 feeling when you come into contact with an enemy.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Blinge »

and Skyrim's combat feel managed to be worse than Oblivions :lol: :lol:

I really should get back to Morrowind u kno. It's been over a year since I played god damnit, I've forgotten everything.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

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I don't think any game comes close in terms of immersive gameplay. You can be almost anything you want and complete missions in pretty much any way you want. What other game let's you kill pretty much any main character and totally control anything? The magic system is so crazy too.. combining spells to create all kinds of insane effects. A true sandbox RPG. The follow-up games are of course more refined but they both lost the charm and immersion of the first game in my opinion
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

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If you're going to play Dragon's Dogma then I think the classes you should go for are assassin, ranger, and sorcerer. Assassin has access to most melee weapon types and can use bows. High damage and lots of versatility. Ranger can only use knives and longbows but those are probably the best weapon types anyway. Knives have high dps and for some reason they let you run much faster and double jump. Makes getting around the big open world more convenient. The higher end sorcerer spells are seriously badass even if the process of casting them isn't particularly engaging. They can hover in the air like Peach in Super Mario Bros. 2 USA, which is fun.

Magick knight and magick archer seem strong but don't feel as interactive to me as the nonmagical classes and nothing they do is as impressive as a sorcerer's tornado and bolide spells. Magick knight might be cool if you house rule yourself into using their less powerful abilities, but the optimal approach is to fire a magick cannon alpha strike from across the room. Strider seems like a worse ranger/assassin, maybe I'm missing something. Mage is a support class, make one of your pawns handle that shit. Warrior is fun but underpowered. Fighter is more effective than warrior but still suffers from no ranged attack. It's a lot more convenient to have a way to shoot flying enemies down and as I recall there are some late game enemies that can only be damaged by ranged attacks. You don't want to rely on your pawns to shoot the weak point, that can take a long time.

Don't play on hard mode, it's badly made. Might be ok in NG+ but I never do NG+. As I recall it straight up doubles the damage you take and halves the damage you deal. Not your pawns though, so the most effective approach is to be the support slave mage, hiding far away from any danger.
Mischief Maker wrote:If you said DD was unbalanced because of cheese-able moves/consumable, I'd have agreed with you. That does not mean the combat is as simple as Elder Scrolls. Besides, these moves you're describing are end-of-the-skill-tree late game abilities, it's not like a player is going to be spamming Dragon's Maw from the start.
If a game's balance rewards using the same tactics over and over again, it's a mindless game. If you want to deliberately play suboptimally for the sake of being more varied and stylish, Dragon's Dogma supports that to an extent, but not even 10% as well as the likes of Devil May Cry and Bayonetta do. In addition to having vastly larger movesets and far greater combat complexity, those two have scoring systems that recognize you for fighting well and penalize you for using consumables. Dragon's Dogma does not.
solidus wrote:I really love the ES games. Morrowind is just so damn good. But yes the combat is super floaty. That game engine just has awful physics. There is 0 feeling when you come into contact with an enemy.
Morrowind is easily the best Elder Scrolls game. Its combat is F-tier dogshit but fortunately there's a hundred ways to cheese it. Its handmade world is infinitely more interesting to explore than the procgen garbage that came before and after. I respect Daggerfall's ambition but it's not fun to play after the first few hours. Skyrim is very bland and Oblivion is quite simply the worst game ever made.

Anyone play Elona? That's my favorite sandbox RPG.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Blinge »

Nah man.. Oblivion's got stuff. c'mon.
at the very least if you can squeeze an iota of enjoyment out of skyrim you can do so from oblivs.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Vanguard »

Literally the singular good point to Oblivion is that its retarded NPCs are sometimes funny. Like the ridiculous conversations they have or when a guard tries to shoot you but he misses and hits his friend and it starts a giant civil war. Or like how the beggars do a pitiful voice most of the time, but ask them about something you can ask most NPCs, like rumors, then they suddenly switch to the same voice everyone else has. Everything else, the exploration, combat, character building, quests, dungeons, treasure hunting, characters, and story are all irredeemable trash on every level. It's almost impressive how badly they messed up every single thing.

In addition to being a terrible game on its own merits, it's even worse in its context. Oblivion is an insanely bland sequel to a tremendously interesting, if also tremendously flawed game, and the series never recovered and never will. It was also a vanguard of overpriced DLC that was already finished when the game came out but you have to pay extra for it anyway. There are literally rooms where you click on the door and the game tells you to buy the DLC to go inside. That was unheard of at the time.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Blinge »

Ah yeah, I can see how this would be a very sore spot for a morrowind fan.

I would try and explain what i liked about certain quest lines because to call them ALL irredeemable trash is either pure rage or a bit dishonest tbh, but that's enough internet for one day, i'm going to sleep instead.
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Squire Grooktook
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

I feel that for rpg's - especially huge wide open rpg's with largely customizable characters - playing optimally and balancing are much less of an issue for me.

RPG's to me are more about simulation. Like in a tabletop game, you might make a character with a low charisma rating not because you want to be optimal, but because you simply want to roleplay a huge fucking dork and have it somewhat represented mechanically. A large part of the gameplay of classical rpg's is creating characters and seeing how they fair in different situations that the game provides, with the strategic or "playing to win" aspect subsidiary to that.

Like as far as I'm concerned it's totally fine to justify a no-gun run in Bloodborne via "my characters backstory that I made up is that he's a swordsman mercenary who hates guns for taking his job".

Of course this is all why it's so hard to get action rpg's right. Action games are about direct player interaction and skill, while rpg's are about indirect simulation. It's very tough to reconcile them.
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floralcateyes
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by floralcateyes »

Vanguard wrote:Anyone play Elona? That's my favorite sandbox RPG.
Elona is indeed quite fun. Been meaning to get back into it, as I never got very far (corrupted save files are the worst, and if your laptop consistently crashes from Elona, despite multiple repairs, you should probably upgrade). Surprised it wasn't brought up in that conversation about rougelikes supposedly lacking creativity.

I know some people look down on the possibility of endlessly grinding. But IMO it's part and parcel of the sandbox. Game lets you do, be, and associate with ridiculous things, might as well let a little girl on a talking bike stomp all over a giant dragon (whose meat is then cooked on a paper barbecue and fed to a goose that shits out a coin).

Really wish there were more games like it. Seen GearHead recommended to Elona fans as another open-world/sandbox rougelike, but have yet to try it.
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