Isn't Strider overrated? (Verdict: MD Yes / AC No)

[Hagane]

Osman / Cannon Dancer is pretty good, but the character is too powerful for the game's sake, I think. Throws involve little risk and do massive damage and bombs are more like nukes and you have a lot of them. I played it for like an hour or two and got halfway through the last stage. The level design, psychedelic visuals and all the options you have sort of make up for the lack of challenge, but maybe the game should be a bit more frantic to match the character's power.

[Skykid]

Witness the Youtube comment gold.

Where's a double ended dildo when you need to beat someone to death. Another astonishing display of dumbfuckery by gamers who know nothing about games... that they own and have played extensively.

I'll definitely try the PS1 version again at some point, I'm interested to see if there's anything to notice now I've played this under such scrutiny.

On the oroborous ride to Meio, I think it's that way on purpose, so that you have to be careful with your positioning.

No, it's just a bug/glitch or whatever. I found a reliable way to get around it on AC, but it's definitely just some silly shit where they didn't play test properly and work out how to join the Ouroburos platforms reliably. There are a few iffy bits knocking around in AC generally, but like I said, success based on actual skill/memorisation is much more assured. I'd say you might only suffer one very unfortunate run in every ten, mainly if you get dicked up on the airship transits - that section is really way too random even to rely on on-the-fly skill, but at least it's fairer in AC than MD.

What is the overall opinion on Osman?

Looked at this again last night. Not convinced by Trap15's opinion that this is the perfect game either, but its certainly looking good and I'll try to put more time aside for it. My main issue so far is its audio, which is often really horrible and the bitrate sounds way low, which is a shame considering how nice the graphics are. Hagane sounds like he's busted through it pretty well, but at a glance it seems tougher than original Strider - hell, nearly everything seems tough compared to original Strider, the thing's a cakewalk.

[jepjepjep]

If you like Strider, then I think it's impossible to not like Osman, especially if you consider Strider to be too easy. Osman is basically Strider 2, from a game design perspective not from story/characters/theme. It's as if Isuke took the main criticism from Strider arcade to be the easy difficulty and stiff controls, and tried to address them in a new action game.

The difficulty is much higher than Strider 2, in my opinion. Like in Strider, the last stage is by far the hardest (and they implemented a checkpoint system for deaths so that you can't blindly spam through it). First, they fixed the controls in Osman to be much more fluid. You can control even while jumping. They took out the options which would kill everything in Strider even from afar. Now when you power up your shadows, you still have to jump in close to attack and put yourself in danger. The bombs are ridiculously overpowered though. It seems almost like they were an afterthought, put in at the last minute to give the player a chance. Who knows what he was thinking though, it would be a great interview question.

Personally, I love both games. I kind of think of them like Dodonpachi and DOJ. Dodonpachi and Strider are both completely awesome. Their sequels improved upon the mechanics but fell slightly short in the style department: DOJ with the prerendered graphics not as cool as the DDP sprites, and Osman with the theme/style/music not quite as cool as Strider but still excellent. So I end up liking them about equally but for different reasons.

[BIL]

Just whacked the PS1 ver again, leaving the pad neutral during the preliminary stage of the st5 Ouroboros ride. Hiryu will resolutely maintain his ground, it's pretty goddamn satisfying actually. I used to dislike how he braces his hands against surfaces in the AC frames, compared to superhumanly striding up the sheerest of slopes in MD. But with the AC's superior collision performance, those frames make perfect sense.

So the threat is, as it should be, getting shot in the face by your improvised mecha-centipede steed, or being hurled off into oblivion by his twisting and contorting. The solution is to get that motherfucker by the scruff of the neck so he can only shoot dead ahead, until he's served his role, the tower is reached and it's time to kill.

I think the AC's difficulty (or lack of it) may actually be a masterwork, of sorts. A 1CC ain't no thing. Utterly world-class playable action movie. But the combination of a last-stage difficulty spike and the game's sheer cinematic continuity means a no-miss feels like:



every damn time.

[jepjepjep]

I think the AC's difficulty (or lack of it) may actually be a masterwork, of sorts. A 1CC ain't no thing. Utterly world-class playable action movie. But the combination of a last-stage difficulty spike and the game's sheer cinematic continuity means a no-miss feels like:

Ha, ha, well said! The game remains insanely satisfying to play, even after beating it over and over again.

[jepjepjep]

No, it's just a bug/glitch or whatever. I found a reliable way to get around it on AC, but it's definitely just some silly shit where they didn't play test properly and work out how to join the Ouroburos platforms reliably.

Ah, that makes sense to think about it as falling between little platforms.

[louisg]

I totally agree with this verdict. Man, going back to the Genesis one, I forgot how glitchy it is both in terms of collisions and animation. It's still fun, but it's nothing compared to the tuning of the Arcade or Sharp versions. The same kinda goes for Ghouls 'n Ghosts.

[Skykid]

Original Strider's controls are solid enough, they just have a few classic limitations you need to learn to account for, but Osman is def more fluid and versatile with the ability to adjust position in the air.

For my money I'd still take Strider 2's simple but deadly control repertoire over all the others, it's spaced out just right. In terms of challenge I'm starting to think S2 might be the toughest nut to crack too, you need to be on absolute point with that one. I need to go back to see if I can emulate CIT's performance.

@BIL damn straight. Its ease isn't a sleight, it's not like you can walk it on your first go or anything - still requires learning. But the game is most certainly an action experience in entirely its own class, a ride I'm definitely up for repeating.

[Pretas]

My only real complaint with Strider 2 is that it should have either been in full 2D or full 3D. The polygonal environments and enemies are ill-integrated with the sprite graphics, creating visual confusion and a disjointed aesthetic.

[Skykid]

My only real complaint with Strider 2 is that it should have either been in full 2D or full 3D. The polygonal environments and enemies are ill-integrated with the sprite graphics, creating visual confusion and a disjointed aesthetic.

I disagree, I think it looks really good.

Just did another Strider run at my Brother's request. That's 2 clears in 2 now. Was just as fun the second time. Maybe I'll put the MD on later for a laugh.

On the side, does anyone have any hi-res art links for original Strider? I found some neat stuff of the Balrog in an overhead shot, but everything on google seems teeny.

[BIL]

After much pounding, found a couple bugs in the PS1 port! Guess this is the stuff Striderpedia meant. Pretty minor, provided you know how to safely take out Gravity Core v2.

-Axe-wielding Amazons in st4's middle "vines and branches" section don't seem to throw their axes much, if at all. They'll still cleave you if you get close, but the AC's occasional axe merrily whirring across the screen seems AWOL. I didn't notice this since I'm more bothered about the actively intercepting Flying Mosquemen, the harder to dodge boomerangs and most of all hightailing it out of that clusterfuck without losing all my blue health or doing a header into the jumbo bramblebush at the end. OTOH, the dinosaur section axe-wielders will chuck their weapons as usual. Edit: seems vine-swingers in the earlier section will happily chuck an axe at you too!

-As if Gravity Core v2 wasn't a bunch of dicks already, with its vertical strip of center-left screen reserved for a guaranteed double KO, in the PS1 port there are a couple of spots (roughly 6 and 12'oclock) where if you enter its orbit, upon being rejected you'll very likely be thrown clean offscreen to instant death. This can very occasionally happen in the AC version, but only as a freak occurrence. It seems the PS1 port doesn't take into account the much steeper-sided room, whereas the AC version will clearly withhold chucking Hiryu out of orbit until there's room to roll safely. Fortunately, the smaller room also means you can kill GCv2 without ever orbiting it, even without the powered-up cypher, so this is easily sidestepped.

A few misc. observations, which seem to apply equally to Japan Set 1 and the NTSCJ PS1 port:

-got the st2 bombardment and Sky Thunder mkII hijack down to a reliable process now. This may well be old news to many, but I was one of those complaining about this bit in this thread, so if it's of any help...

1) once you get the max number of bombs onscreen (it will be either four or five), carve out an opening and let any you can spare remain onscreen. Then make the jump to the next craft. As long as at least one of the current set remains onscreen, you've got a nice window of time when no more can fall.

2) the onscreen set will always wrench violently to the left when the bomber is almost reached, plan accordingly.

3) once you're underneath the chutes, and the onscreen bomb limit has gone out the window, use only a vertical jump to board the bomber. If you get smacked, and you probably will, you'll land safely back on the flying platform and can exploit the invincibility window for a sure boarding. Anything but a vertical jump is liable to get you irredeemably swatted offscreen by a bomb, and even if you make it past them there's precious little railing to grab.

4) the rear propeller is potentially lethal, particularly when combined with the turbine directly to its right. Somersault onto it and get to the left side, wait until it's in " \ " position and use a vertical jump to climb onto the tail platforms. Then clean up the deck and borrow yourself an airship, ordeal over.

Since adopting these points, I've not had any of those FUUU runs where you go from [ ^__^ ❑❑❑❑❑ ] to [ ಠ_ಠ ❑❑❑ ] in a nanosecond.

-the fly-in cypher powerup at the start of stage 5 doesn't always appear. Instead of gambling on it, at the start of stage 4's dinosaur area, grab the invincibility at the far left, rush to and straight through Lago, and grab the cypher powerup that's always hidden behind him. If you can reliably have double saucers at this point, they'll murder his face off with a bit of cajoling and you can start stage 5 with a guaranteed new powered cypher. St5's brutal opening is much easier and a hell of a lot more fun when you're armed to the teeth.

I wish I knew WTF governed this game's item fly-in appearances, it certainly doesn't appear to be related to conventional notions of rank.

[Bloodreign]

Witness the Youtube comment gold.

I posted on that video page, couldn't believe the video uploader had the gall to think this was the Mega Drive port instead of an arcade port. Still hurts my head to go back and read that, gah.

[Skykid]

BIL here's another PS1 gravity core glitch:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SBfUg5YteZI

For the record, I haven't encountered any such problem in this section playing either the MD or AC, is it prevalent on PS1?

I probably won't encounter it now anyway, as I don't really go in for the gravity ride now I know where to position myself.

[Bloodreign]

I've had that dreaded glitch happen to me, except I went off the screen and died, my reaction was one of "what the fuck just happened?". Has happened more than once too on the PS1 port.

I happen to have it on PS1, Genesis, and on PS2 via Capcom Classics Collection 2, I refuse to play that emulated version due to whomever helped Capcom with these (Digital Eclipse I think) used the romset with less music in it, the MD and PS1 ports thankfully have all music intact.

[CMoon]

BIL here's another PS1 gravity core glitch:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SBfUg5YteZI

For the record, I haven't encountered any such problem in this section playing either the MD or AC, is it prevalent on PS1?

I probably won't encounter it now anyway, as I don't really go in for the gravity ride now I know where to position myself.

I think a similar glitch is possible in the AC version where I was simply thrown out of the room...very similar to the glitch shown here, but did not end up in that wedge shown in the video.

[BIL]

BIL here's another PS1 gravity core glitch:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SBfUg5YteZI

For the record, I haven't encountered any such problem in this section playing either the MD or AC, is it prevalent on PS1?

I probably won't encounter it now anyway, as I don't really go in for the gravity ride now I know where to position myself.

Yep, looks exactly like the stage 5 equivalent. Basically, in the PS1 don't use 6 or 12'oclock if you're going to enter orbit, you'll very likely get a glitch. It can happen in the AC version, but with far less certainty. But as you say, it's better to not orbit the thing at all (once you get stage 3 nailed, you'll be reaching it with a powered up cipher, and stage 5's can be hit safely from the sidelines with or without one).

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm replaying this on MAME, and it's pretty entertaining. I was playing it on Fusion, but this version is more to my liking. I guess I just like the visual upgrade, and the sound affects.

QUESTION: I am playing a version where you can get a double to help you fight(ala Ninja Gaiden II NES, or Osman). I do not recall this in the Genesis version. But maybe I just forgot.

Is this in the Genesis version, or in the PSX version?

[BIL]

That's just the invincibility item - it's in the MD too but graphically downgraded. In the MD version it simply makes Hiryu blink, in the AC/PS1 it'll also give him clone shadows that mirror his actions. You find the first one in the moving platforms area of stage 3.

edit: actually, mechanically downgraded too!

[evil_ash_xero]

Ah, OK. When it happened, I was like "well this is new". I guess not so much.

Skykid- I would definitely say that Osman is a bit harder. Now, you do get some "bombs", that can demolish the bosses in one or two attacks. Then again, you can only hit enemies at fist length, so it gets kind of tricky at times.

I think it's harder overall though. Strider is kind of easy. Especially for an arcade game.

[BIL]

Got an instant kill strategy for Meiou down, requiring double saucers. Just grapple up and onto the first rung of the tower and wait. When he flies in, he'll run straight into their orbit and be promptly shredded. I've seen this done in ReplayBurners uploads, but it's the first time I've gotten to grips with it myself (happened accidentally, the first time). Works on PS1 just like AC. Not that Meiou is the kind of last boss where you need such a trick, particularly with it being so easy to just grapple up, somersault right and camp out by that max health restore on the tower's rightmost arm while getting your hits in. But it's all about maximal destruction with minimal effort! I ain't chasing your pirhanha-summoning ass all over this tower Meiou! (I wish he'd summoned something a little more horrifying and befitting of an extraterrestrial dictator, like Death's pet Hellbarracuda in Dracula 64)

Other than Hiryu's bigger MD hit frame jamming up the stunt works, the saucers are the real dividing line between the MD and AC, I think. They add such versatility and destructive power to the arcade version, and the pressure of losing them if you take too much damage creates serious motivation to ace the game, with good play feeding back into a frenzy of cipher+saucer carnage. This aspect is totally lost in the MD version, making for a far more stilted game at advanced level.

Slight alteration to my earlier post on the st2 bombardment - you don't need to wait for the current set to arrive, rather you can start destroying them as they appear. The onscreen limit will always be respected, no matter what the total actually present is.

[BIL]

Wow, the arcade version is a bit unstable compared to the PS1 overall. Thought I'd record a no-miss, but my feeble PC can't record the PS1 emulator footage. So I fired up Japan Set 1 in Final Burn Alpha and started recording. All went swimmingly until the st5 Ouroboros ride when yep, got dumped straight through a gap. Tried again, similar run but this time I jumped to avoid a similar situation and went off the top of the screen... and died instantly. -_- A third try wasn't as good a run but it was a decent twelve-minute clear that shows most of the stuff I posted about earlier, a lot of which I've just learned (like carrying over st4's cipher to st5). I got paranoid and stayed back during the ride, getting shot and almost left behind but just about scrambled back up. So I settled on it for now. Overall this version feels very jittery by comparison (see below).

I wonder what the fastest known clear time is. sub-10mins definitely seems possible. This game redefines "breakneck pace." It's not that it even feels briefer, the quicker you go the more it becomes an uninterrupted barrage of kamikaze stunts. Reminds me of Super Contra [AC] in being a short, blisteringly concentrated burst of cinematic action that demands to be blasted at high volume.

More things I've noticed in PS1 vs AC (Japan set 1 - I guess this is the final revision? Has the full soundtrack, apologies if wrong)

-the PS1 version fixed a whooole lotta weirdness and instability relating to Hiryu landing on surfaces. In just 45 minutes or so I got at least a dozen anomalies I'd never seen before in at least twelve hours of PS1 time. Dancing in place upon landing, walking without animating, slowing to a crawl despite being on a flat or even downward-sloping plane... also freezing in somersault frames and sliding up and down walls, instead of grappling. The only remnant of this I can reliably find in the PS1 port is the st3 flying platform escape, where Hiryu will sometimes do his little landing jig as the platform rockets away.

-in AC st2, upon reaching Sky Thunder mkII's bomb chutes, the onscreen bomb limit will remain active. It'll go out the window entirely on PS1, making the former version's boarding go much smoother. OTOH, in the AC version it's possible to fall straight through the rear propellor.

-in AC st5, if you exhaust the cipher powerup from the laser grid room, there'll sometimes be another in a container hidden at the far end of Lago's area. This never seems to appear in the PS1 version.

-in st5 of both versions, climbing up the wall and off the screen at the exit of the st5 laser grid's room will kill you. Only in the arcade will you die if you reach a similar altitude during the first phase of the Ouroboros ride.

-both versions seem to have a weird way of sometimes giving a significant forward momentum boost if a somersault follows a slide in a specific way.

[Skykid]

So what's the verdict here? The PS1, give or take a little, is the best version of the game?

[BIL]

Assuming MAME and FBA are being accurate, I definitely prefer the PS1 version. Both the AC and PS1 have some glitches, but the port feels a lot more solid and consistent to me from run to run. On top of that, its lack of slowdown or flicker makes an already accomplished action game utterly beautiful and even fiercer. It's great seeing the hyper-detailed enemy death frames and blossoming explosions simultaneously at full 60fps. Good amenities too. Customisable-speed autofire and a dedicated slide command on their own buttons, plus unlockable stage select, are great additions. Its biggest weakness is the inter-stage load times, but they're ~3secs tops.

OTOH, the PCB's the PCB. ^_~

Run uploaded. Totally intentional when I headbutt that carrier in the first stage. ;3 That's how you get the Red/Red/Blue-Blue-Blue goodness! edit: ugh, codec failure. Uploading a better quality copy now. edit2: done.

[jepjepjep]

I think if you have a cab the arcade PCB is worth it. If you're playing on a supergun, the PS1 port is probably good enough. Cool video BIL. You inspired me to make a video too.

http://youtu.be/ItMVb4J_gxE


Here's a video of a 1cc run without any options. I'm a little rusty so there are a few sloppy parts but overall it wasn't too bad of a run. I only opened a few containers. This is a PCB run. You can hear my cat at the beginning of the Amazon stage, lol.

[BIL]

Sounds like robopanther isn't the only cat trying to muscle in on your run. :3

Loved the video. I'd totally overlooked the possibility of no-options play, you certainly have to work harder when they're not kicking doors down for you. Great speedkill on Lago in stage 4. To play armchair designer for a sec, I wonder if a good compromise might've been limiting the Options' ramming kills to burst usage, with only the weaker chain attacks usable during recharge periods. Would've worked well with the tight time limits and added some further strategic considerations. There are definitely some points where being without them feels like a handgun-only Metal Slug run, but at other times they just tear major enemies to shreds before you know they're there.

Another slightly odd thing I noticed in the PS1 ver - there's a tomato (lol - I love those things... *POOM*) smack in the middle of the last platform out of the st4 vine section, which doesn't seem to be in the AC and complicates things slightly. Maybe it's there to make up for the lack of flying axes...

[Skykid]

A 1cc was done for the Casino crew in our Loading Cafe meet today, but not before they were privy to some teeth gritting run-damaging bugs. I do have a real fondness for the game, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't conflicted over its value versus its often painful flaws.

[jepjepjep]

What bugs did you run into Skykid?

[Ex_Mosquito]

I was obsessed with Strider in the arcades growing up, it blew my mind. But your right the Megadrive version is way more buggy than the arcade. I've lost count how many times I've fallen through the snake on the last stage and jumped through wall climbing up the ice chamber on stage 2, pretty shoddy. Regardless, it was very accurate to the arcade, to the point of you could practice the MD version at home and your skills would perfectly translate to the arcade version, something that was pretty rare at the time. The only other MD that had this level of quality was Daimakaimura. Again, not as nice looking but pretty much 99% gameplay wise.

The arcade version also had a bug the MD version didn't have. The everlasting drone energy trick.

http://youtu.be/q2g_bsPJwZg @1:00

[Stormwatch]

Unless MAME's emulation is flawed, the MD version had much tighter collision detection, very noticeable in stage 2's wheels before you meet Solo.

[Skykid]

What bugs did you run into Skykid?

All sorts of crap on stage 2, mainly everyone's favourite flying vehicle transit. Got knocked through floors, wiped out by being blasted clear offscreen, and stuck that infamous hanging on to the propeller loop where you can't swing back up (much worse in MD).

Folks did have a few laughs at my horror, so it wasn't all bad, but my game developer friend refuses to recognise it as an exemplary work because of its less reliable elements. I'm less critical, I think it's great, but I'm starting to believe Strider's most powerful attribute is its concept.

Unless MAME's emulation is flawed, the MD version had much tighter collision detection, very noticeable in stage 2's wheels before you meet Solo.

MD's c.detection is no way near the standard of the arcade, you're lucid dreaming there. The section you're citing is definitely harsher in the arcade as you can get crushed at several points and it won't give you a pass by knocking you clear of the gear platforms, but there's no comparison in terms of collision and bugs, MD wins that contest hands down.