Isn't Strider overrated? (Verdict: MD Yes / AC No)

[BIL]

spores growing on the wall.

I knew I was remembering that happening at the start, in some version or other. (not later in the level, that happens in the MD version too - WALLTOMATOES, AIEEE)

Ugh. This all reminds me of why I have a policy of concentrating on one port of an arcade game only. I end up forgetting everything about both. Despite the MD port having sentimental value and being a nice early system showpiece title, this is why I only own the PS port.

Oh yeah, and having finally read page 1: Ex-Cyber's right about the MD version's Ouroborus ride to Meiou. Nasty. Very easy to fall through his segments, I find the best bet is to not walk side to side more than necessary and jump over his undulating motions.

[Skykid]

Out of curiosity, besides Ye Olde Bridge and the stage 2 airship hijack, what other bits are giving you more trouble in the MD version prior to stage 5?

I just gave recording a no-miss a go, and got the same one or two deaths in stage 5 each time. Thing is, if I'm this out of practice I know they'll happen in the AC version too, since that stage has the game's worst Memoriser Bullshit™ by far.
ven ignoring its lesser slowdown and sprite breakup), but not to the extent that the MD one's noticeably harder or less clearable.

Look, you and I are going to need to open some kind of dialog that's faster than forum boards. I'm bewildered as to why there's not a clear case of spot the difference here. When you first play the AC after MD, it's quite amazing to think how much Sega programmers squeezed in. At the same time, you instantly notice how few times you get ripped off in comparison.

As I said, the game isn't hard. Quite easy in-fact. If I didn't keep getting abused by frustrating buggy occurrences, I'd probably have cleared it by now. What I don't get is why you don't notice them! Some are unavoidable. If I'd recorded every game I'd had in the last two weeks I'd have a very nice blooper reel where the game has suddenly decided it was time for me to die.

I have a list as long as my arm. After killing Tong Poo I slide tackled through the pilot's cabin and my blade literally had no effect on the guard. Collision detection turned off. Happened to be my last health block so dead I went. The guys in the room lol'd, I thought it was less funny.

Most infuriating of all, cos I'm not going to list them all, is the sudden acrobatics that occurred underneath the Balrog on stage 3. To be precise, this has occurred twice so far. After the anti-gravity room when the ship is burning up and you're scaling the underside, as I approach the platform where I need to swing up and kill the captain, you'll remember there are four or five soldiers on there. I shit you not, twice for no reason at all, one of those soldiers comes hurtling downward as if he's been attacked, through the platform, knocking Hiryu off. It happens in an instant, the moment you arrive there, and before you have a chance to swing up. I think I was actually mid-swing the second time, and I nearly threw the controller through the screen.

...and then there's the rudder before Tong Poo, you know the one you can see on the AC version but not on MD, prior to leaping for it? One time (only once) during that blind leap, the rudder was in a near vertical position and Hiryu sailed right past it to his doom.

Anyway, there are a million of these torments, including bosses leaving the screen and not returning, forcing timeouts. On most goes I'll get to the last stage, as long as there isn't a complete load of collision detection/falling through platforms/unavoidable bombs bullshit on stage 2's flying vehicles. And the whole Cypher upgrade requirement on stage 3's anti-grav ball... I noticed in the arcade one, the inertia doesn't deduct your health when you're thrown off of it, am I missing something in the MD?

[hermit crab]

Not too convinced that it's very widely regarded as a "perfect" game. If someone feels that way, fine, that's their opinion...

[trap15]

It definitely is highly regarded as one of the greatest games of its era, or maybe of all time. Maybe not perfect, but incredibly good.

[hermit crab]

"Too hard" is probably what most people think about it. Not talking about myself of course *krhm*.

[BIL]

Look, you and I are going to need to open some kind of dialog that's faster than forum boards.

Carrier pigeon? ^_~ I'll give the AC game another go tonight, but tbh I'm wary of stuff like the stage 2 battleship rudder in that too. Also, it's only in the AC version that I've occasionally been thrown clear out of the screen to my death while fighting the gravity core (st3 & st5). Maybe it's because I don't consider either the AC or MD entirely stable games that I don't notice this stuff as much. I'd complain about it more, but with it being such an insanely ambitious game in terms of stage design, I've always considered it a minor compromise that it doesn't feel as rock-solid as something minimalist like Akumajo Dracula (FC).

Apparently the PS1 porting team fixed some bugs (and allegedly created some of their own), so maybe the MD version compares particularly badly to that one?

[hermit crab]

I remember the MD port being regarded excellent and very close to the original when it came out. But expectations for arcade home ports were nowhere near what they are now, basically people were used to 16->8bit conversions so an actual 16-bit port was something else. Also, it was an early release for the system, so standards for MD games in general hadn't been set very high yet (or at all, since there weren't that many games to compare it to).

[Skykid]

Right, best summary I can do: Game's ambitions are amazing, was relatively groundbreaking in the action genre on release, still maintains a unique 'feel' and atmosphere, and plays very well - all of this to its credit.

Best MD game of all time? Next to the likes of Rocket Knight, Bloodlines, Thunder Force IV, Hard Corps? Not possible primarily because of all the glitches. The game is a work of beautiful origami, that is to say, it's made out of paper (...might use that in my review! )

Call me hardline, but I can't excuse coding failures that are so abundant as to make one run to the next unreliable. The only genuine difficulty in the game is not knowing what hand you'll be dealt. I also consider having to suffer a two hit minimum on the gravity core mk.1 as an egregious failure in game design terms. If someone can explain how this is avoidable without maintaining the cypher upgrade from the beginning of the level, I'd love to know.

I'm ignoring arcade for the moment and just focusing on MD, but I'll get around to it. If it suffers anywhere near the number of bugs as the MD I'll be having a field day.

On a final note, anyone notice how when on the first stage after you make the very first jump over the gap and walk up the incline, the two soldiers are invisible? They pop into view when you're almost on top of them. Don't rush in!

[BIL]

I always rush into that bit, usually while jumping and hitting "B" rapidly. ^_~

[Mischief Maker]

Most infuriating of all, cos I'm not going to list them all, is the sudden acrobatics that occurred underneath the Balrog on stage 3. To be precise, this has occurred twice so far. After the anti-gravity room when the ship is burning up and you're scaling the underside, as I approach the platform where I need to swing up and kill the captain, you'll remember there are four or five soldiers on there. I shit you not, twice for no reason at all, one of those soldiers comes hurtling downward as if he's been attacked, through the platform, knocking Hiryu off. It happens in an instant, the moment you arrive there, and before you have a chance to swing up. I think I was actually mid-swing the second time, and I nearly threw the controller through the screen.

As I recall, the captain is actually using his whip to knock the soldiers off the lifeboat so it doesn't happen "for no reason."

[Skykid]

I always rush into that bit, usually while jumping and hitting "B" rapidly. ^_~

Well, there's no other way. Damn camo-suited Soviets!

Most infuriating of all, cos I'm not going to list them all, is the sudden acrobatics that occurred underneath the Balrog on stage 3. To be precise, this has occurred twice so far. After the anti-gravity room when the ship is burning up and you're scaling the underside, as I approach the platform where I need to swing up and kill the captain, you'll remember there are four or five soldiers on there. I shit you not, twice for no reason at all, one of those soldiers comes hurtling downward as if he's been attacked, through the platform, knocking Hiryu off. It happens in an instant, the moment you arrive there, and before you have a chance to swing up. I think I was actually mid-swing the second time, and I nearly threw the controller through the screen.

As I recall, the captain is actually using his whip to knock the soldiers off the lifeboat so it doesn't happen "for no reason."

Really? Well in that case, why does it only occur 5% of the time and how in God's name would one avoid being knocked off by flying bodies at point blank range when there's no time to react? (Slashing doesn't work btw.)

[Aguraki]

sources for strider supposedely perfect?

[Skykid]

sources for strider supposedely perfect?

Rupert H.

But I think the general consensus isn't far off. I'm still trying to figure out how public opinion for a very good, slightly broken home port far exceeds that of the sequel, which may not have the same contiguous layout but at least works reliably on each and every run, and plays like Capcom dynamite.

[hermit crab]

Nostalgia?

[trap15]

And nobody mentions Osman, which is far better than both Strider and Strider 2 by a long shot. If Strider is perfect, Osman is a gift from the gods. Actually, it is regardless.

I would say Osman is literally perfect aside from the poor sound quality.

[Skykid]

Nostalgia?

You've uncovered my secret suspicion.

[BIL]

Just finished a 1CC of the AC version (PS1 port), with one death. St5 gravity core took me down to 1HP, had to do or die and "whoops bro, killing it while in the center of the room is guaranteed death via bottomless pit LOLOLOL" - seriously, couldn't there have been a bar at the bottom of the shaft to grab onto at the last second? The AC version even adds a courtesy emergency platform to save you if you cock up the end of the st2 minefield sprint. That's stage 5 though, bit of a clusterfuck until you learn the rules. At least it didn't chuck me offscreen as tends to happen if you engage it from the 7'oclock position.

The MD version is best thought of as "great for 1990, plus flaws." It preserves the signature panoramic spirit of the AC version, with all setpieces and transitions accounted for in a close approximation of its athletic sidescrolling action. Much like its reduced animation, for the most part it plays very serviceably, but the AC's most demanding segments quickly expose its shortcomings. Main offenders are a closer viewpoint with larger sprites and less visibility, a correspondingly bulkier hitbox, the Diplodal Saucers seeming less assuredly lethal, and the sword occasionally having trouble connecting (Solo and Mr. Elephant homing missiles will refuse to die at times, I've noticed).

Stage 5's huge difficulty spike inevitably brings these flaws out. The saucers seem to waste a lot of time killing Mr. Elephants in the opening areas, where they tear right through in the AC ver. The ceiling running double somersault stunt in the anti-grav chamber doesn't work properly, and now costs a hitpoint. Just like in the first stage, Hiryu can't make it under the drills, and it's possible the resulting damage roll will delay you long enough for the first somersault to end in disaster. The laser grid somersault's timing is completely different and much stiffer-feeling with Hiryu's boxier hit frame. The Ouroboros ride to Meiou is a lethal fall-through hazard, where the AC won't let you drop no matter how he undulates, allowing you to concentrate on not getting shot by him. And yep, the MD's st4 bridge is screwed up. In the AC you just hold Right, no complication.

Saying all this, if you know the MD game inside-out you'll only need a bit of adjustment to clear the AC version, and vice versa. It's far from a terrible port. Generally very close, warts and all (not all of its finickier behaviour is Sega's fault, as playing it and the emulated PCB back to back will show). Great home conversion for its time, if one that could've used refining. Only a curio post-2000 with the superlative PS1 port around.

[evil_ash_xero]

When I first got it for the Genesis, it blew my mind.

I haven't really been able to get into it, in recent years. Maybe I'll give it another shot.

I think I like Osman better. It's designs aren't as good as Strider's though.

[Skykid]

Some quick notes:

Played AC again. Like night and day, but not without bugs. Noticed a few similarities and differences:

- AC stg2 vehicles the bombs drop quicker and usually are fewer in number. Faster bombs make the trajectories easier to avoid. Had as little as two in a wave, whereas MD is minimum 3 and sometimes up to 5.

- Jumping between transports in the section above is easier in AC, they become in range a lot earlier. Taking hits can knock you through the platform still, but Hiryu always grabs on, no issue being knocked off screen.

- You can see the rudder before leaping on AC.

- Tong Poo are over resilient in MD. If you face them head on and ignore the exploit, they can sap several hits. In AC they die rapidly, your Cypher seems more powerful. Sometimes they can't even tag a hit between them if you're sharp on your sliding. This fight on MD is heavily luck based.

- End of stg3 soldiers being whipped below the deck you're holding onto happens more regularly on AC but is less instant death. First time it just deducted a life stock, second time Hiryu retained his grip. In MD it seems to be unavoidable insta-death if one flies at you.

- In AC your options account for far more. You can see them most of the time and they do a good job of seeking out nearby enemies.

- AC gives you more health-ups. For example on the lower tree branch in the Amazon stage right before you leap for the first dinosaur, there's a full (all stocks) life item. In MD it's just points.

- The gravity ball deducts a health stock if you're thrown out of its inertia in both versions, the attract sequence for AC is a lie (played on easy maybe.) In AC you only need 1.5 revolutions, so only lose 1 stock. In MD you require 2.5. You can also stand on the lower section in AC and tag the ball safely without being pulled in on AC, even without a cypher extension. Could not achieve this in MD.

AC is noticeably easier than MD all round, but now is a great time to ask if there are any default difficulty differences between PCB regions. I can only get the World ver. Running. JP won't go!

Anyone know which sets I need to run the JP rom? Have JP set 1 & 2, still won't work.

[BIL]

- AC gives you more health-ups. For example on the lower tree branch in the Amazon stage right before you leap for the first dinosaur, there's a full (all stocks) life item. In MD it's just points.

It's there in the MD version as well.



I think if you're at full health, or already have two saucers, the relevant items will be converted into points when their container is opened. That's how I always understood it, anyway. I've never been entirely clear on how this game's item distribution works (MD or any variant of AC, including the PS1 port). The stage 1 Robopanther doesn't always arrive after killing Strobaya, for example.

The MD version also adds several additional health items and a second extend, via hidden item boxes.

[Skykid]

- AC gives you more health-ups. For example on the lower tree branch in the Amazon stage right before you leap for the first dinosaur, there's a full (all stocks) life item. In MD it's just points.

It's there in the MD version as well.



I think if you're at full health, or already have two saucers, the relevant items will be converted into points when their container is opened. That's how I always understood it, anyway. I've never been entirely clear on how this game's item distribution works (MD or any variant of AC, including the PS1 port). The stage 1 Robopanther doesn't always arrive after killing Strobaya, for example.

The MD version also adds several additional health items and a second extend, via hidden item boxes.

Would you mind noting some of the secrets for me?

I've never got anything except points from that particular Amazon box, but then because I assumed that's all it was I stopped going for it.

I noticed in AC if you begin stage 2 with the Cypher left over from Stg1, the first box is points. If you expire it beforehand (recommended) it will give another fresh power up as usual. Not sure if I identified how this works in MD.

[BIL]

The cipher powerup carry-over is one thing I'm dead certain about, in MD vs AC. In the former, there's no carry-over between stages. In the latter, yeah, it carries over with its remaining energy and you'll want to exhaust it before breaking open a new one. I've been experimenting with getting the new one hidden behind Lago (st4 boss) right before the stage ends in the AC, as (again) the st5 one doesn't always arrive.

I've been looking for some documentation on the item fly-ins but haven't had any luck so far. I wonder if it really is just utterly random. It's not so bad since the flown-in powerups are never necessary, but it sure is nice to know whether they'll appear or not.

Here are the items I know of in the MD port - none of these are in the AC.

stage 1 - walking up the building exterior after killing Strobaya (Ivan Drago knockoff), but before reaching the summit where a bunch of Flying Mosquemen swoop down, you'll notice an "I"-shaped vertical beam overhead. Cling onto its right side and slash through to reveal a lifebar extender. You'll need to jump onto the scaffolding to the right, then take a big somersault to the left to collect it.

stage 2 - immediately after boarding the Sky Thunder mkII (mothership), before you jump over the first turbine, there's a hidden single 1HP restore in the alcove above Hiryu's head where the bomb chutes join the fuselage.

stage 3 - after escaping the crusher trap and killing Mr. Elephant and the Hit Mice (good name for a band, that...), go right, past the uppermost launcher trap. At the very end of the platform there's a hidden lifebar extender, you'll need to jump and slash to reveal it.

stage 4 - trigger the collapsing bridge without crossing it, then climb down the leftmost wall into the water and slash to reveal a hidden lifebar extender.

stage 5 - after killing the Shadowtag Bullet Gunner, that cheapshot motherfucker, climb onto the satellite dish directly above and slash to the left to reveal the MD port's exclusive second extend. The first is in Siberia's power plant - head up the long ramp all the way to the left and kill the Frog mech, it's just behind it next to a lightning generator.

The saucers are absolutely disgraceful in the MD version. :/ The AC's maintain a tight orbit around Hiryu between lashing out and nearby enemies, here they're more likely to wander off somewhere leaving you to fend for yourself. This is like a Gradius port where your options go off and do their own thing... actually, scratch that - they're like the Flint from XEXEX. Easily the worst aspect of this version.

Amusingly, just like the Wii VC version of The Revenge of Shinobi and its dopey redrawn title screen (no Sonny Chiba for you!), its version of Strider MD is censored. TOO MOSQUE FOR TELEVISON. -_-

[Skykid]

Thanks, was only aware of two of those, the Amazon one by force since in the MD you can't run up the crumbling bridge. What a pisser.

As for fly-ins, I don't think they're meant to be random, but the behaviours are erratic. Beginning of the Amazon stage is most obvious, as you can get a cypher power up, option bot and invincibility in succession by edging forward and backward on the first dual vines. Unfortunately sometimes it just pushes empty carriers at you over and over. When you start moving the carriers you want suddenly turn up at completely impossible points (vine swinging.)

One interesting piece of trivia: Strider was originally conceived as a console game before obstacles pushed it to arcade. This may have influenced the stage layout somewhat, but if anything it seems to have had an impact on its difficulty. It's perhaps the easiest coin-op I've ever played. Got to the stage 5 boss rush yesterday on my third attempt (needed to figure out the laser fire pattern of the security machine in the previous room - bit of a doozy that one!)

[BIL]

I've seen a Youtube superplay (I think it was a ReplayBurners upload) where the player deliberately waits through a load of empty carriers at the start of the Amazon, until he gets those powerups. This clued me in a little, but doesn't explain the first stage... usually I'll receive one saucer after the first pit, then a second plus a 1HP restore shortly afterward, once I've scaled that wall with all the turrets at its base. Occasionally though, I receive nothing or only some. I usually kill both empty carriers in the very first section for luck... the carriers that approach as you scale the building after Strobaya act similarly, it's never 100% certain I'll get the Robopanther there. If you were depending on the glitched saucer cheat to make it through the game, this would be an instant restart, LOLOL.

OTOH, the swarm of Flying Mosquemen that attack at the building's summit always include two item carriers, with a cypher powerup on the left and a lifebar extend on the right. So clearly some deliveries are set. More research needed. The above seems to apply to both the emulated PCB (Japan Set 1) and the PS1 port.

edit: wao, I've been playing the PS1 port all night and loving it. I tend to forget what a killer game this is to tear through, until I'm back up to speed and rocking nonstop redX2/blueX3. I'm done with the MD version. AC Stage 5 is already a fragile tightrope affair with little route deviance tolerated, yet so damn satisfying to pull off without a hitch - perfect climactic exclamation point. MD port's collision and saucer issues just butcher it.

[Skykid]

After only a handful of credits, I got up this morning and 1cc'd Strider AC with only one death and four lives remaining. This is probably the easiest arcade 1cc I've ever encountered once you establish Hiryu's limitations and overcome a few sticking points.

Final conclusion:
The arcade version is not overrated. The Mega Drive port is definitely overrated. I'm just harsh on stuff that's crammed with enough bugs to make a Pokemon collector jealous, even though I appreciate there's a lot to commend in the port.

But to note, the AC ver has bugs too, it just doesn't bust your balls so badly. Falling through the dragon on the ascent to Meiou is fucking heinous. Being whipped down the hole in the middle of the floor after gravity ball boss 2 is facepalm worthy, and stage 2 still maintains around 50% of the unpredictability during airship connects as the Mega Drive version. I also find it amusing that it's common to die during the Grandmaster fight but achieve the clear at the same time.

But AC is overall much cleaner and actually responds to your ability to play the game, rather than turning its nose up and deciding you're just going to die to spite your skills. Maybe I'm harsh, but I just can't abide by that. I think Sega did a very good job, but really should have play tested a little harder.

I'm definitely in for a Strider pcb sometime in the future.

[BIL]

Falling through the dragon on the ascent to Meiou is fucking heinous.

I wonder if this is one of the bugs the Strider wiki claims the PS1 port fixed. I've been playing the hell out of it the last 48 hours with several no-misses, and despite consciously making zero effort to stay aboard Ouroboros in stage 5, I've not fallen through once (only moving as necessary to avoid his bullets). This port also has near-zero slowdown or sprite breakup, which really does enhance the experience when even the most massive enemy onslaughts are shredding and exploding beneath Hiryu's weapons at a 60fps fury. The short (~3sec) inter-stage load times aside, I love this port.

The story of the MD version, both aesthetically and mechanically: decent until the absolute CPS-testing pressure is on, which is when cracks start appearing. I'm sure nostalgia does play some part in its reputation. For its time it is a godsend of a home port for 90% of the experience, and if you weren't going for the absolute best run you might not even become aware of its limitations. I know I wasn't.

Not to be confused with outright ignorance about the arcade version. I've noticed a tendency in the internet's dumber quarters to assume the PS1 port is some kind of sub-CPS hack, with the MD about even and the mythologised PCB occupying a mysterious realm of perfection. Witness the Youtube comment gold.

[jepjepjep]

Final conclusion:
The arcade version is not overrated.

Amen, brother!

But to note, the AC ver has bugs too, it just doesn't bust your balls so badly. Falling through the dragon on the ascent to Meiou is fucking heinous. Being whipped down the hole in the middle of the floor after gravity ball boss 2 is facepalm worthy, and stage 2 still maintains around 50% of the unpredictability during airship connects as the Mega Drive version. I also find it amusing that it's common to die during the Grandmaster fight but achieve the clear at the same time.

I don't think these are technically bugs though. Maybe instances of questionable game design, but logically they make sense. After the gravity core 2 fight, you can fall out the bottom, but you can control that with your positioning (control when you attack). You can also take out the gravity core bosses without leaving your feet if you want to be safer. The randomness of the airship bombs is the hardest part of the game for me. On the oroborous ride to Meio, I think it's that way on purpose, so that you have to be careful with your positioning.

[jepjepjep]

Falling through the dragon on the ascent to Meiou is fucking heinous.

I wonder if this is one of the bugs the Strider wiki claims the PS1 port fixed. I've been playing the hell out of it the last 48 hours with several no-misses, and despite consciously making zero effort to stay aboard Ouroboros in stage 5, I've not fallen through once (only moving as necessary to avoid his bullets).

On the arcade pcb I've fallen through him a bunch of times. Mostly it's when he changes direction and loops back above himself. Holding up on the arcade stick during that part makes it safe though, crouching makes it dangerous.

[BIL]

Thanks, that's definitely good information to have (I'm MAME-dependent). In the PS1 port, it doesn't seem possible to go from standing on his back to suddenly "slipping through the cracks," as is rampant in the MD version (even his initial slight undulating motion during Meiou's speech has to be fervently guarded against). Of course when he starts twisting and turning while ascending the tower, if you're stood on a segment as it flips over you're going to die, just like in the arcade version.

[evil_ash_xero]

What is the overall opinion on Osman?

I just played through that, and thought it was pretty awesome.

I'm going to play some Strider, to compare.

It seems like the stronger game, but what do I know?