Isn't Strider overrated? (Verdict: MD Yes / AC No)

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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shinsage
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Post by shinsage »

man Hiryu's got balls, when he called FLYING BATTLESHIP BALROG a toy, when he asked those asian bitches if they were sending a TOY into battle I was all like, god this guy is just so cool

man he was the youngest Strider ever to achieve A-rank level, what a bad mother! he was so bad he went into seclusion until the Grandmaster came out, people were like Hiryu you're the only dude bad enough to fuck up GIANT ROBOAPES and SPINNING GRAVITATIONAL PULLING SPHERES and AMAZONIAN BITCHES please help us

and what did he do when all was said and done

he went home

ON THE BACK OF A WHALE

that's all I got to say about that.


except only losers call him Hiryuu
and i'm kinda pissed they took out the whaleriding part in the ending
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Skykid
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by Skykid »

It's been 5 more years. I pulled the game back off the shelf and I'm going through it again - Mega Drive version that is.

Still ropey/buggy to the point of horrible frustration at certain points. The game is actually so easy, but getting it to do what you want? Not so much.

I have a question anyway: At the beginning of the Amazon stage how the mother fuck do I walk my way to the top of slope before it crumbles and I fall in the pit? I've seen folks do it on YT etc, but when I play he doesn't walk fast enough. I've only managed to get around it with two critically timed jumps, that don't always come off.

So what is it? I've tried holding a button, holding the d-pad in different directions etc.
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Edmond Dantes
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by Edmond Dantes »

I'm not a huge fan of Strider, but it is a good game. Devilishly hard like everything Capcom put in arcades, but a hell of a ride.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by Skykid »

Edmond Dantes wrote:I'm not a huge fan of Strider, but it is a good game. Devilishly hard like everything Capcom put in arcades, but a hell of a ride.
Really? I find it particularly easy. :idea: The only devilishly hard aspect is how fucking broken aspects of the MD port are. No two games the same, driving me crazy! :evil:

Anyone on the Amazon crumbling slope thing then? I'm hard-pressed to keep getting there on a life and losing them all in the same way.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BPzeBanshee »

Are we talking about Strider Returns: Journey From Darkness? I thought the control handling was pretty damn shit there too but I haven't played the others so I just assumed it was related to that particular game.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by Skykid »

BPzeBanshee wrote:Are we talking about Strider Returns: Journey From Darkness? I thought the control handling was pretty damn shit there too but I haven't played the others so I just assumed it was related to that particular game.
No, Strider arcade port on the Mega Drive. There's nothing wrong with the controls, they're tight - It's all the other shit. It's kind of 50/50 at some points as to whether or not the game's ropey elements are going to deal you a bum hand.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by CMoon »

I've never played the mega drive port, but why don't you play the actual arcade version? Pretty sure however good the console version is, it isn't a flawless conversion.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BPzeBanshee »

I just had a go at this MD version. Holy shit it seems like the complete reverse of Strider Returns. Great controls as you said but just seemed so buggy looking, as a newcomer I couldn't really figure out much of anything and got disorientated real quick. I wouldn't say it's bad but it's far from perfect indeed.

Take this with a pinch of salt though. I literally just wandered into this thread after having only played Strider Returns. Seems like the latter has better music and graphics in areas apart from player movement (where in Strider Returns he looks like a cripple, poor animations there).

EDIT: Arcade version definitely seemed a bit better overall. I think the MD version is just a tad unpolished with some of the stage stuff.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BIL »

Skykid wrote:Anyone on the Amazon crumbling slope thing then? I'm hard-pressed to keep getting there on a life and losing them all in the same way.
I don't remember this part ever being a problem in either the MD port or the arcade version (PS1). I'm in classes all day today, but when I get home I'll fire up teh MD emu and post an answer. Unless you figure it out beforehand ofc.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by Skykid »

CMoon wrote:I've never played the mega drive port, but why don't you play the actual arcade version? Pretty sure however good the console version is, it isn't a flawless conversion.
Far from it, but try telling that to the monkeys on Screwattack who voted it the best MD game of all time.

I have every intention of getting to the arcade version, I'm just putting myself through various levels of pain trying to see how the MD version has been engineered right to the end.
BPzeBanshee wrote:I just had a go at this MD version. Holy shit it seems like the complete reverse of Strider Returns. Great controls as you said but just seemed so buggy looking, as a newcomer I couldn't really figure out much of anything and got disorientated real quick. I wouldn't say it's bad but it's far from perfect indeed.
I'm not sure what Strider Returns even is! :idea:

The MD ver. has so many great things going for it, it's almost a stellar conversion. Everything is in the right place, but all the glitchy, buggy shit just screws with your run way too randomly.

@BIL, that would be fantastic. I don't understand what's going on here at all. It only takes ten minutes to get there, and then one minute for me to lose several lives trying to get him to walk the walk (right to the top, without slowing down and dying.)
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by railslave »

ah Segas original 16bit killer app/ system seller, before Sonic, Megadrives were sold on this port.

Its missing some parallax, and some background tiles are very lazy and smaller , but i think t was a bit rushed.
But it was as good as console versions got those days, possibly the game that invented the phrase "arcade perfect" ..i never moaned and i played the arcade every weekend, till the bitter end.
Always loved that pseudo dynamic soundtrack.
i prefer the megadrive main player sprite, bu the game seems a bit empty compared to the arcade.

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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BPzeBanshee »

Skykid wrote: I'm not sure what Strider Returns even is! :idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppAA16He8XQ

I think most Strider fans consider it a piece of shit but I actually quite liked it....apart from the horrid controls.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BIL »

I forgot how short and easy this game is. :p Done well in time for lunch and the bus.

Yeah, that bridge. In the MD one I'd actually just run to the bottom of the slope and stand where the bridge connects, triggering its collapse. When you start to fall just hit left on the pad and you'll grab the wall and can climb down, or somersault across and climb up to continue the stage. This actually makes sense in the MD version since there's a hidden item down there. The musical cue makes the timing of this process obvious. Don't worry, the Killer Buckshot Tomatoes won't have caught up to you before you're safely on the wall.

Otherwise, I think you have to run up the bridge until Hiryu starts losing momentum, then rapidly jump up the rest of the way. If you screw this up you're dead for sure. I may be wrong here, but I've never been able to get him over the bridge to safety without jumping.

I think this may work differently in the AC version... I could swear I was running the whole way up the crumbling bridge to safe ground there, a few months back, but it's so similar to the port my mind plays tricks on me. Will give that a look tonight.

Agreed on the game being rather easy for a coin-op. It can be punishingly strict, though, and I say this as a diehard veteran of the supposedly "stiff" Akumajou Dracula series. Especially in the fifth stage, at a few points you can kill yourself without realising it, like when escaping the exploding gravity core. Very much a matter of learning the setpieces, then figuring out how to put your own spin on things within those boundaries. Nailing the ceiling-running double somersault in the inverted gravity room feels mind-blowingly good every time, even if you're very much working within strict guidelines.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by Skykid »

BIL wrote: Otherwise, I think you have to run up the bridge until Hiryu starts losing momentum, then rapidly jump up the rest of the way. If you screw this up you're dead for sure. I may be wrong here, but I've never been able to get him over the bridge to safety without jumping.
That's the way I was doing it. I've seen YT vids where they just walk to the top, but that might be arcade only. Another busted thing in the MD port?

So let me get this straight: I touch it with my toe and let it crumble, then just somersault over to the wall and climb? Makes sense. That last minute jumping thing is 50/50 all the way.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BIL »

No, just approach the bridge - you can trigger its collapse without actually getting onto it. Once it starts to go, you'll be free to walk off the edge of the slope and cling to the wall (even if you're actually on the bridge and fall into the pit with it, you can still hit Left and grab the wall as you fall, provided you're not too far out). From there, go down and slash for a lifebar extend item, or just somersault over to the adjacent wall and climb up.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BrianC »

Does the JP version of Strider MD have the same issue with falling through platforms? I kind it has the Hiryu's "ha"s, which the US Genesis version lacks.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BIL »

Where does that occur, usually? I grew up with the Genesis version and having switched to the MD one recently, the only gameplay difference I noticed was a lack of continues. And yep, Hiryu does have his voice sample, and Meiou's awesome genocidal soundbite at the end of stage 5 is there in all its glory too.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BrianC »

I'm not really sure. It's a complaint I heard a lot, but I never really noticed it, TBH.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BIL »

Honestly, I never found the game that glitchy. It behaves pretty predictably, and I tend to hyperanalyse my sidescrollers (spoiled a few that way... Alisia Dragoon, RAF World and MD Aladdin all rub me the wrong way).

Uploading a vid of my usual MD bridgerunning method now with inputs shown, FWIW. Essentially, you want to run until the instant Hiryu starts slowing down, then hammer the jump button while continuing to move forward. No timing needed, as long as the jump inputs are received it'll work.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by Edmond Dantes »

Skykid wrote:
Edmond Dantes wrote:I'm not a huge fan of Strider, but it is a good game. Devilishly hard like everything Capcom put in arcades, but a hell of a ride.
Really? I find it particularly easy.
You probably have more experience with arcade games than I do (I'm mostly an RPG/Strategy gamer).

I can beat it, but only via credit-spamming.
:idea: The only devilishly hard aspect is how fucking broken aspects of the MD port are. No two games the same, driving me crazy! :evil:
The first time I played Strider was the PSOne port, which I think adjusts the difficulty based on how well you're doing... not sure if that's what happens in the MD port.

And someone still needs to translate the remaining chapters of the manga.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by Skykid »

BIL wrote:Honestly, I never found the game that glitchy. It behaves pretty predictably.
Aiiii... don't get. Game seems glitchy as fuck and completely the opposite of predicable. I'm intrigued. You can finish it every time with no issues? For real?

Had a go on the 'cade version and the difference in reliability was remarkable.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BIL »

Yep - keep in mind though, I literally grew up with this port. It may be I've just internalised any weirdness. Or maybe the routes I use minimise such things. I'm certainly used to figuring out when a game isn't going to cooperate (like fighting on stairs in the early Draculas) and working around that.

But I've one-lifed the MD and AC/PS1 versions back to back and found them about the same, the biggest difference being the MD's hidden items all over the place. It's a pretty close port, for better or worse. Easily memorised and executed until the last stage where it's considerably harder on both counts.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by Skykid »

I'm begging you to investigate further for the sake of my sanity. A good port, yes, but seriously far from 1:1. The MD version is plagued with bugginess, I'm convinced.

How do you find the flying vehicle jumping on stg2's ascent to the airship? For me it's the most iffy part of all that rough coding.

I'm looking for compassion and understanding here. I need you to go to work with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BIL »

Skykid wrote:How do you find the flying vehicle jumping on stg2's ascent to the airship? For me it's the most iffy part of all that rough coding.
About the same! That segment is really nasty in both versions, very random and a sore temptation to use autofire. It's critical to take into account not only the falling bombs' movement but also that of the platform you're on. The interaction between them can throw out some horrible, borderline-undodgeable bomb setups, but if you spot a bad one in advance you won't be quite so disadvantaged.

If you know how to kill Tong Poo (never feels right typing that) without taking damage, I find it more than acceptable to take a few hits on your way up, especially when jumping onto the mothership itself. Another key bit of info is to always, always hold UP when jumping between vehicles (spotting a good break in the bombs and killing the guard as you jump go without saying). Even if you get hit, provided you made it over the vehicle's platform you'll still grab on instead of plummeting off the screen. Combined with the invincibility window, if you've got the max healthbar you can brute force your way through some of that section.

Actually... I should again stress that this is all a bit neither here nor there for me, but I remember Kiken and Stormwatch both saying they thought the MD port played better than the AC version. I don't know, honestly. Both of them feel about as good or as bad as the other to me. Neither will let you through without a good route, and I can consistently get more or less the same to work in both, so the difference doesn't seem too pronounced. There's definitely an adjustment period going between them, but that's to be expected with the conversion to such a weaker platform.

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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by Skykid »

I already know the Tong Poo exploit. Found it completely on my own. In-fact I'm totally assured in everything I need to do, just not what the game will decide to do. The MD is certainly not superior to the AC, there's a gulf of difference in reliability. I've been studying this shit the last two weeks, and will continue to compare both versions side by side - but my findings are that the MD is plagued with glitches and bugs that unfairly influence your run. The AC had a bit of it.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by Mortificator »

I think the stage 2 airship bombs were easier to deal with in the arcade revision that played the stage 1 theme over and over. When I switched to the other set (more for musical variety than for the added music actually being good) I didn't as consistently make the ascent without taking a hit.

But this was several years ago.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I find my comments on the previous page borderline seppuku-worthy

but at the same time still kind of right. I won't even try to parse out why some games appeal to me, and others don't, but I will point out that Strider differs from many other games in that it tries to mesh an expansive (and demanding) gameplay vision - hard to implement some of the stuff they were doing in a small playfield when the basic units are rectangular - with a comprehensive styling. Personally I think that two of the most constantly spoken-of Capcom properties - Makaimura and even Strider - really are as successful on the aesthetic front as many of their other properties, especially their brawlers (at least the early ones, limited runs, and one-offs that don't get too bogged down in fanservice or a particular kind of style). By contrast, what starts out looking like a flat, potentially embarrassing pastiche of horror movies in Castlevania actually blossomed in a bunch of interesting directions - and those buds tend to have man-devouring bare-breasted plant sirens inside. And I've rather enjoyed that there have been so many quite different takes on that series, both in terms of aesthetics and gameplay.

But I would say that probably many of my favorite platformer/acrobatic fightin' games (of this type) are probably in limited series or even one-offs.

Many games just feel overproduced, and while I wouldn't quite accuse Strider of that, there definitely are points where it seems they're losing the thread, and where I find I'm executing blind leaps of faith - or just running downhill, in the case of the mined snowfield in the original, whose gameplay function I can't quite fathom and which appears to just be in there because "it's cool."
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by BIL »

Skykid wrote:I already know the Tong Poo exploit. Found it completely on my own. In-fact I'm totally assured in everything I need to do, just not what the game will decide to do. The MD is certainly not superior to the AC, there's a gulf of difference in reliability. I've been studying this shit the last two weeks, and will continue to compare both versions side by side - but my findings are that the MD is plagued with glitches and bugs that unfairly influence your run. The AC had a bit of it.
Out of curiosity, besides Ye Olde Bridge and the stage 2 airship hijack, what other bits are giving you more trouble in the MD version prior to stage 5?

I just gave recording a no-miss a go, and got the same one or two deaths in stage 5 each time. Thing is, if I'm this out of practice I know they'll happen in the AC version too, since that stage has the game's worst Memoriser Bullshit™ by far.

I did notice a couple areas where the MD's collision is different, and worse. I'm used to merrily somersaulting over the first drill in stage 3's anti-grav deck, after rushing down the slope and shearing the door open. Can't seem to clear the drill in the MD version. The stage 5 anti-grav room's ceiling jump doesn't seem possible without taking a hit from a ceiling drill beforehand, although this has the amusing side-effect of making you invincible during the leap itself. And the laser grid miniboss's advanced pattern, used in the stage 5 rematch, is awkward to dodge via somersaulting over it. AC's a snap, MD will bash you knee-first into a laser if you're not absolutely dead-on. Only the third is something you'd do in a "safe" run, though.

AC definitely seems like a smoother-playing game to me (even ignoring its lesser slowdown and sprite breakup), but not to the extent that the MD one's noticeably harder or less clearable.
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Re: Controversial but...Isn't Strider overrated?

Post by CMoon »

In the AC version you can just run across that bridge without jumping, the problem is, you don't have time to grab the item at the bottom. So you end up with a choice whether you want the item or not. If you do grab it, the bridge ends up collapsing and you end up with spores growing on the wall. The genesis version seems a little different in this respect.
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