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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:01 pm 


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Cool, those are my settings as well from when I first got the PCB.

So which regions are accessible from which ROM sets? Are you saying that in the Asian version, it's possible to access the US and Japanese region settings but not Euro? What region data is accessible from the Euro version?

In any case, just let me know if you need me to test anything on the possibly revised JP PCB. Like I said before, the truck careens down the hill at the end but the cars in the beginning also stutter when they first pop on-screen.


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:41 pm 



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Ganelon wrote:
Cool, those are my settings as well from when I first got the PCB.

So which regions are accessible from which ROM sets? Are you saying that in the Asian version, it's possible to access the US and Japanese region settings but not Euro? What region data is accessible from the Euro version?

In any case, just let me know if you need me to test anything on the possibly revised JP PCB. Like I said before, the truck careens down the hill at the end but the cars in the beginning also stutter when they first pop on-screen.


Theoretically, all regions should be accessible if it's there - but for some reason the ROM dump doesn't have a Euro region accessible. It's not related to it being an Asian region default, but rather the actual ROM data as whole (meaning it's a different revision from others I've seen or the data was dumped incomplete somehow [unlikely]). I can only speculate the reasoning why there are two ROM sets with/without Euro Region data - perhaps the game was originally shipped to Europe with the same settings as USA (so there was no Euro region), but someone complained (probably about blood or something) and a new ROM set was made later that had a Euro distinction. I remember Mitchell Corp had to change the name of their game "Tako" in Italy because "Tako" is a nick name used for the Mafia. So, this has happened in the past and Mitchell Corp does care about the details of what is acceptable to the European market.

Technically, I'm not that savvy about these sort of things honestly. Going back to what the ROM default / NVRAM default may be. In MAME, you run the ROM and then an NVRAM file is created (I don't know if that means it doesn't exist when you first run it on actual hardware - that's just how MAME works). So, although an initial ROM defeault of X may be present, later on in the boot sequence it may stay "change that to Y". It seems if you were going to change the default in a region, you would do that from the initial values and not add a line of code. But then, I'm not that tech savvy. . . but I think I know a way to test to see if that's the case.

I know I keep saying this: but I'll double check the careening truck in the last level. I just played it last night, but the truck didn't move. This could be what dip 1 is actually responsible for, or it could be based on region, or language setting. . . or something else. There are also other collision bugs where you can get sucked in through walls. All of these issues could have been related, and they couldn't figure out how to solve one without messing up the other. Of course, perhaps emulation simply isn't 100% perfect - and I shouldn't forget that.


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:23 pm 


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Wasn't there talk on here about someone from mitchell having snagged a box of the PCBs and scratched the serials of the chips and then selling them on here or online ect?
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Last edited by Strider77 on Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:36 am 


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That'd be interesting to hear. From what Roy just said- they had stock of full kits until 2006 (I can't believe I missed out on that), and they only have one for themselves for the archive now.

A reprint would be amazingly expensive/impossible,no?
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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:43 pm 



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I flipped the unknown dip and played most of the way through the game, but didn't notice a difference.

On that run through the game, I also reproduced a similar situation at the exact same spot when I was able to use a bomb with only the 2 button configuration. It appears to be a bug - perhaps not limited to that place in the game - may or may not be limited to the emulated ROM. . . not especially important if you can play without getting hit. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:46 pm 


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Strider77 wrote:
Wasn't there talk on here about someone from mitchell having snagged a box of the PCBs and scratched the serials of the chips and then selling them on here or online ect?

Never heard that, but scratching info off of chips is very common. I would never ascribe that to "TEH MITCHELL CONSIPRCY!!!"
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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:08 pm 


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No... not so much conspiracy but would be interesting to use to trace you PCBs history.
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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:18 pm 



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I dunno. . .

My serials are on a sticker and they have a matching serial sticker on the box. There is info scratched off the chips - but those aren't the PCB serials. If I were to make a guess - the scratched info is to hide the apparent identity of the chips so pirating would be more difficult? Someone is laughing at that statement - and I welcome it. :D

I bought mine in early 2003, straight from Mitchell Corp.

I guess people could have bought boards from a source and the stickers were removed - and thought the scratched chips were where the serials were located.


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:48 pm 



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samre story here; I bought a full kit from a board member that sourced a batch a couple of years ago. Some components have their part ID erased.


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:22 pm 


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I am talking about the same thing.... the chips and not the PCB serial.... my bad.
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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:59 am 


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ForeverSublime wrote:
Region is determined within the ROM, not the NVRAM from what I understand. The final dip on switch bank 1 simply changes the language (not the region). I speculate the regions are present in the ROM not to have any changes in the game play, but for legal reasons.

I spoke too absolutely before. Since there are Japanese PCBs with 11XXXXX0 dip settings there could be more of those than I assumed (just went with what I own and what was emulated - perhaps the sample size is too small to draw conclusions). Likewise, it's possible there are some USA and Euro PCBs out there with the bug and the corresponding 01XXXXX1 dip settings (though we haven't seen any of those yet).


Is there any way to tell the region aside from the dip settings? My board has the 01XXXXX0 dip and it plays in english, so I'm guessing it's the Asia region board. Any way to tell for sure? Also with regards to the number of default lives, mine came with 2. I also found a japanese replay video of Cannon Dancer which begins with two (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm1495618).

What a phenomenally awesome game! It really feels like an evolution of Strider to me. I love Strider, but the biggest shortcoming is the difficulty. Once you really play it and memorize it, it becomes very easy. I can't say the same with Osman, it really is challenging. It's as if Isuke dissected the mechanics of Strider and improved upon the shortcomings. He took away the options which were overpowering and improved the maneuverability while airborne. The reduced attack range compared to Strider really puts you at risk more often in order to deal damage to the enemies. Like someone mentioned earlier, the only thing that doesn't keep pace with Strider is the music. The graphics are incredible and like Strider, the game just goes from one setpiece to another.


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:24 am 


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Actually, I think Cannon Dancer is too easy as well. I was able to 1CC it after about 30 credits. With all the hard bits there's basically a "trick" how to get through it, and once you know the trick you can breeze right through the game.

Only the stage 5 boss and the simultaneous battle against all three antogonists in the final stage require real skill, which I don't have, so I always bomb there. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:45 pm 


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Strider was the same way. People at the time thought it was hard, but a few simple patterns and tricks and could beat the game in about 20 minutes on one life.
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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:51 pm 


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I've 1cc'd both of them and I think Cannon Dancer is much more challenging. Not to say that it isn't too easy, but once you have a clear path planned out Strider become a cakewalk, whereas Cannon Dancer still has some challenging parts (well, parts where I have to use the bomb).


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:01 pm 



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ForeverSublime wrote:
Ah! This is neat.

Bank 1, Dip 2 converts the game from 3 buttons to 2 buttons when turned off (example, 00000001 instead of 01000001). . . I tried to play with 2 buttons AND have bombs in stock, but there was no way to use them that I could tell. I tried various button combinations - A+B, QCF, 360, Combo attack, piledriver, full power combo, etc. It makes me wonder if the bombs were an afterthought, and they were included perhaps to decrease the difficulty of the game after playtesting (that's complete speculation). There aren't any bomb pickups in the game, so I don't think it's an absurd notion. However, I seem to recall other games with 3 --> 2 button switches (but don't know for sure), so perhaps this feature is somewhat normal. It's just odd that the feature was included yet can't be accessed via the dips.


ForeverSublime wrote:
Ah, damnit. I did a bomb attack even with two buttons. I should have been recording. . .


ForeverSublime wrote:
. . . I also reproduced a similar situation at the exact same spot when I was able to use a bomb with only the 2 button configuration.


I'm giving this a bump because there may be more than one relevant update coming, and I don't know of other places with this type of information about this game.

To do a bomb in 2-button mode, you press forward forward attack (-> -> A)

I got the Utata Kiyoshi art mook, and he has a move sheet where he depicts the bomb as a sequence of moves starting with -> -> A, then UD A, etc, etc, etc. From that I decided to see if that input was still valid. It only took -> -> A, but I'd love to see if the remainder of the sequence were valid with some other dip configuration (2 button, zero bomb, plus the unknown switch?).

For the completionists that hadn't seen, last month the publisher of the mook uploaded a video of unused stage areas (and a song).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PceXOTNsEM0


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:42 pm 


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Thanks for the info update ForeverSublime. This thread seems to be contain the most info about cannon dancer on the english web.

ForeverSublime wrote:
Here's a vid of the collision bug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyaRmRlM ... re=related

During the time your shadows are returning you do minimal damage even if you are powered up. The video is a controlled situation for demonstatration, but it would affect situations where you have to use multiple hits - bosses.



I played around with this "bug" a little bit and I'm not sure its actually a bug but instead I think it might be a damage scaling dip switch. With the dip switch set to "on", it only takes one hit to break the boxes (even with no shadow power ups). With the switch off, it takes two hits to destroy the boxes. If you have one or more shadows hitting the box then it gets destroyed with one attack. I took a close look at your video above and it seems to be consistent with this theory.

Notice at 0:05, there are two shadows, one far away and one still with you. When you attack the second shadow connects with the box so two hits are registered
Image

At 0:10, it looks like the two shadows are together and you attack slightly before the shadows return. The shadows are in an air attack but they're not close enough to connect with the box. Only Kirin's attack actually hits the box so only one hit registers and the box isn't destroyed (since the two shadows whiff the box).
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:35 pm 


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ForeverSublime wrote:
For the completionists that hadn't seen, last month the publisher of the mook uploaded a video of unused stage areas (and a song).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PceXOTNsEM0


Awesome link! Thanks for sharing!

I guess the extra stages are ones you would have to go through depending on which route you take in stage 3?


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:31 pm 


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Wow cool video ForeverSublime. Thanks for sharing.
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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:18 pm 


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Just started out on this game a few days ago. Pretty fun, the movement and fighting mechanics are excellently responsive and smooth. Level design seems solid, though not sure (yet) if it has the same kind of lasting appeal that marks my other favorite arcade action games. I'll have to play this more before I decide if it's god tier or just really good.
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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:01 pm 


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It's definitely god tier 8)
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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:34 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
I'll have to play this more before I decide if it's god tier or just really good.


Ranked alongside true arcade greats, it falls a little way short of god tier.
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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:17 am 



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jepjepjep wrote:
I played around with this "bug" a little bit and I'm not sure its actually a bug but instead I think it might be a damage scaling dip switch.


That's fantastic! After a test, Material took 24 hits instead of 48 (basic blue level, weakest attack), and like the boxes, the place Visete blocks your path in level 1 takes only one hit instead of two.

jepjepjep wrote:
At 0:10, it looks like the two shadows are together and you attack slightly before the shadows return. The shadows are in an air attack but they're not close enough to connect with the box. Only Kirin's attack actually hits the box so only one hit registers and the box isn't destroyed (since the two shadows whiff the box).
Image


I'm have to partly shoot this one down. It's only one shadow that whiffs (purposefully, for the demonstration) because a new one should attack right where Kirin is standing (as it does in the first image you attached). For some reason, when "Shadows Return" is called, "Create Shadow" gets turned off. You can better visualize this by jumping to the right and attacking and then jumping to the left and attacking when the first shadow returns. It's clear nothing gets created, or the object is created but then returned to Kirin and destroyed immediately, before attack executes (if "Return Shadow" is a flag that stays true until the first shadow returns).

Design-wise, it doesn't make sense that a player in red, white, or black mode can't do more than base damage only during the time a shadow is being returned, but before and after that time they can do 2x, 3x, 4x, etc. Imagine fighting a boss while you're in black mode, and you unleash 3 attacks during the time a shadow returns. That should do at least 9 damage (2 + 3 + 4, for the remaining shadows you have), but instead it does a grand total of 3 damage like you were in blue mode. That's not the best way to reward the player for building up to the strongest power. Beyond combos, that also explains why sometimes when you're button mashing away you're like, "Man, I totally destroyed that boss!" and other times you say "Geesh, my super hits didn't do any damage this time". Well, you weren't creating as many as you thought.

It could be a bug, depending on the programming, or it could just be something not taken into account and operates as designed. Whatever the case, it wasn't what I first, second, or third thought - and it's not related to the dip setting.

Back to the damage setting, it looks like the combo hits increase as well. For instance, if you press A, -> A, the second hit does four damage, unlike two when the dip is off. This actually makes a little more sense with the hit points the enemies have. Shortly said, you wouldn't have to do 9 damage to kill a guy with 8 hit points (which would make the last hit in your combo worth the same as a base damage hit), likewise doing 8 hp in 3 hits is far more efficient than 9 hp in 6 hits.

Great catch, jepjepjep. Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:11 am 


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ForeverSublime wrote:
I'm have to partly shoot this one down. It's only one shadow that whiffs (purposefully, for the demonstration) because a new one should attack right where Kirin is standing (as it does in the first image you attached). For some reason, when "Shadows Return" is called, "Create Shadow" gets turned off. You can better visualize this by jumping to the right and attacking and then jumping to the left and attacking when the first shadow returns. It's clear nothing gets created, or the object is created but then returned to Kirin and destroyed immediately, before attack executes (if "Return Shadow" is a flag that stays true until the first shadow returns).


You're right about the bug! I never totally understood it before but it's clear now.

It would be really nice to know what the default settings are for that dip switch from the Japanese arcades or Arcadia score records.

As an aside, I set the difficulty to very hard and some of the enemies have extra attacks. I never noticed this before since I always left it on default difficulty. The little satellite orbs in stage 1 shoot projectiles. The stage 2 boss has lasers in addition to the hands and fire!


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:59 pm 


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CIT wrote:
ForeverSublime wrote:
For the completionists that hadn't seen, last month the publisher of the mook uploaded a video of unused stage areas (and a song).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PceXOTNsEM0


Awesome link! Thanks for sharing!


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:25 pm 



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GaijinPunch wrote:
CIT wrote:
ForeverSublime wrote:
For the completionists that hadn't seen, last month the publisher of the mook uploaded a video of unused stage areas (and a song).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PceXOTNsEM0


Awesome link! Thanks for sharing!


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:32 pm 



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I need to make a correction to the dip I had listed as "Alternate Attract Mode". It's much more than that. It's "Developer Mode"

I say developer mode, because it may do more than just what I know it does so far. What does it do so far?

Level skip.

Here's a bunch of codes I figured out so far. You press and hold these when on the screen that says, "Monday, Agadan. . . " until the first level starts (don't worry much about timing, pressing and holding will do - the pause after the music stops is really the cue). There may be more codes - completely different from level skip. There may also be more codes that are very similar to what is below. For instance, perhaps an additional button press loads at the same point with different attributes - such as, load the game at point X, with the secret levels unlocked later down the road (dreaming). 1) If that were possible and 2) There's a valid input to "load" from to the very beginning of level 1, like it looks normal to the viewer, then you could 3) make use of those bootleg versions by burning pre-enabled unused areas. However, they all lead to Tianon so they don't accurately represent the 3 tiers in your choice of path.

Notes: I did these in an emulator. For a few codes, you get unusual results which I note as "Funny". Perhaps on real hardware you get different (better) results because the emulator is not perfect. For instance, one time one code loaded on the surfboard right where the goddess appears - but all the other times I input the code the background didn't load. Also, the unused areas may not be glitchy (The ugly looking area is hard to get into, but you can do it with some practice. Also, the game would crash when attacking the first enemy in at least two of the three unused areas - maybe there was nothing to attack in the third).

Remember, Dip 7 on Switch2 must be set in order for enable code entry (that's the third set of dips, since Switch0 is first)

Table Key: R = Forward Direction, 1 = Button 1, 2 = Button 2. If values appear in P1 and P2 columns, you must press and hold these simultaneously



@jepjepjep: Remember what I said about me assuming a switch does what it does? I figured it had to be this or the unknown dip. The rest was just observation.

Here's a table of the dip switch settings as we know them. Please correct if wrong.



If anyone wants to tinker with what else is available in developer mode, or the unknown switch - please do!

Edit: Had to correct myself in the dip settings. Don't freak if you've already rushed to try this.

Edit: Updating original text description in my youtube video regarding "alternate attract mode". Laugh at my last sentence!

Quote:
This attract mode sequence is unlocked by flipping dip switch 7 on the last dip bank (as seen in the test menu). This dip can't be accessed physically. You can cycle through parts of this attract mode by pressing the start button, as is customary with attract modes in other games. You'll also notice the life/bomb/score/time data are present in this attract mode. Judging that the score starts at 0, there's probably a level select feature somewhere, but that wouldn't be too useful unless there's a secret level. *wink


Last edited by ForeverSublime on Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:43 pm 


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Holy hell, nice.
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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:54 am 


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Wow, incredible find ForeverSublime!

I tested a handful of these out on a pcb and so far it gives me the same results.

----Chagos ? 1 R, 1, 2 ---- This one loaded me into a sky background with floating enemies. I could float around until too far to the right he falls to his death

----Prague, Middle R, 1 1, 2 ---- This one gave me at least one enemy out of place. Right before the entrance to euro-gam there's an IJIRYU.

----Saskiraf ? 2 R, 1, 2 ---- This one loaded to the entrance of last stage onto the purple platforms that fall when you activate them where the first fire dancer is. The solid platform after the purple pieces wasn't there so you can't proceed.


Last edited by jepjepjep on Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:38 am 


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Neat finds all around. That video, though...I can see why that stuff was cut. Aaand that's definitely Cannon Dancer music, lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:58 am 


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CIT wrote:
ForeverSublime wrote:
For the completionists that hadn't seen, last month the publisher of the mook uploaded a video of unused stage areas (and a song).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PceXOTNsEM0


Awesome link! Thanks for sharing!

I guess the extra stages are ones you would have to go through depending on which route you take in stage 3?


Yeah, just watched this and I'm curious as to why they were cut. When I first played stage 3 I was under the impression different levels of the portal section would lead to different areas - I was a bemused on subsequent play throughs that it makes no difference if you go low, medium or high. Wonder why they removed them, bar the last they all look almost finished.
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