Cannon Dancer makes me cry

[dcharlie]

way way back i got Cannon Dancer for 8000 yen in Akihabara (certainly didn't cost me silly money )

I sold it though. About 2 years ago. To go towards baby stuff/mortgage etc.

that does indeed make me cry.

[GaijinPunch]

I sold it though. About 2 years ago. To go towards baby stuff/mortgage etc.

I'm keeping a tab on what my kid owes me.

[undamned]

I sold it though. About 2 years ago. To go towards baby stuff/mortgage etc.

I'm keeping a tab on what my kid owes me.

Retirement plan. Keep it in the family.
-ud

[dcharlie]

i am simply keeping tabs on Shou... and then planning to rob his house and get it all back!

(not really!)

[Obiwanshinobi]

Are there any differences between Cannon Dancer and Osman? Other than the language and title, that is.

I like Cannon Dancer a lot. Best graphics? I wouldn't say that- my first impression was beefed up genesis style. I'm turned off a little bit by the super difficulty- I thought Strider could have been just a little bit more difficult.
I think Strider 2 isn't that bad if you're strict about the credit feeding- and It bums me out to not get the jungle level from the PS1 release, even though there's pictures of it on the high scores screen.

If you could take the play mechanics of cannon dancer, add the polished presentation of strider, and make it look as good as strider 2 (I think the 2d stuff looks great), then you'd have a super game.

I for one am not that impressed by the looks of Strider 2 (lousy 3D - even Klonoa had more style to its poygonal backgrounds - and lots of slowdown)... except for these high scores screens. Bloody hell, are they impressive even now on a CRT.
Cannon Dancer, ont the other hand, does look pretty good (the animations are very detailed).

[dpful]

no...no i understood the 300000 yen....i was commenting on the previous prices you listed....from what you said i thought the 300000 yen one was more of an anomaly....im certainly not interested in paying 3k for a platformer ....or a cave game for that matter....

hmmm...im gonna give it a go in mame tonight in the cab....looks pretty awesome

Just wasn't sure if you read the number of 0's in that! For $300 it would be great I think.

thats what i was thinking....for a good game, thats not much at really....but this seems more like one of those games that isnt super pricey(usually), but those that have it, dont let it go often.....

im excited to give it a go....dunno why i didnt just check mame and fire it up

I think it emulates perfectly.

Btw, I think strider two would have been fine, even great, if the the level sections weren't chopped up. Seamless transition is what made strider 1 so good. The pcb of strider 2 has slightly shorter breaks, but they still kill it. And man, are the breaks obnoxious in their own right.

[dcharlie]

I think it emulates perfectly.

Cannon Dancer?
not tried it in a good few months, but the emu was way way off last time i tried. Perhaps better now.

I qualify "off" as being "not accurate enough after playing the board for it to be noticed but in the grand scheme of things so insignificant that most sane people will love it under mame"

it's me who is the twat, not you guys!

[GaijinPunch]

I think it emulates perfectly.

Cannon Dancer?
not tried it in a good few months, but the emu was way way off last time i tried. Perhaps better now.

You must've played it a while ago. The driver is actually not *that* old. 4 years now maybe? But yeah, I cleared it a few weeks back. It's good.

I qualify "off" as being "not accurate enough after playing the board for it to be noticed but in the grand scheme of things so insignificant that most sane people will love it under mame"

It's been a while since I played the PCB, but I noticed nothing unplayable about it.

[dcharlie]

yup, i gave it a whirl again after i posted. Clearly i'm mad as a loon - whilst i still have this strange irksome feeling the colours are all to cock and the music queues seem a bit later i really haven't played the PCb in so long that it's probably a bad case of L337itis or wankylupus or something.

Perfectly playable, and people should play it!

[Ganelon]

The emulated version is pretty close. But pretty close doesn't cut it for true fans of the game. Don't be suckered to paying ridiculous prices though. Just 5 years ago, brand new Osman kits were going for $300 from Mitchell themselves.

[ForeverSublime]

The emulation is different for sure. My memory is fuzzy, but the emulation is "more perfect" as I recall.

1) Collision detection is "faster"/more sticky (I never scientifically tested this, but I feel a difference)
2) Large truck in last level rolls down hill, but is stationary in the PCB version (at least in USA PCB - don't remember other versions)

But there are some negative differences in the emulated version as well

1) Collision detection bug exists in all emulated versions, but only existed in the Japanese (and Asian?) version of PCB. [so yes, technically there is a difference between "Cannon Dancer" and "Osman" - the bug doesn't exist in Osman]
2) Minor detail: [At least] On the USA version of the PCB, the cars in level 1 move a little bit. They don't move at all in emulated version (if memory serves me right)

There could be other differences I don't recall right now.

Does anyone know where to source the fan-made DVD? I recall seeing these for sale long ago - can't believe I forgot. Now I don't know where the purchase link is. I made some of the youTube vids linked to earlier in this thread (by MTroup).

[Ganelon]

The large truck at the end rolls downhill in the Cannon Dancer PCB. I also don't remember any cars at the beginning moving either. What's the collision detection bug and how do you see it?

But if you say there's a bug, it sounds like we're talking about different versions of the game instead of the 1-switch region change.

[ForeverSublime]

I know that this bug is present on the same version of the game with different regions, but perhaps there are other versions of the Asia and Japan PCB that don't have the bug.

Here's a vid of the collision bug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyaRmRlM ... re=related

During the time your shadows are returning you do minimal damage even if you are powered up. The video is a controlled situation for demonstatration, but it would affect situations where you have to use multiple hits - bosses. There are minor differences in the game beyond the 1 switch region - life/continues/life up score. I might recall one more obvious difference in the Asia version enemy AI - I'll check soon. That version is the most different in terms of default settings (to eat your money). I wouldn't be surprised if bosses took a few more hits in that version, but that's speculation.

I played the game for hours unsuccessfully trying to complete some maneuvers until I realized that bug was stopping me. The difference in one hit can make all the difference sometimes - especially since I used to try to play to complete a level with the fewest amount of hits possible (yet still destroy everything). Sometimes it was just for style but the glitch still caused minor problems.

With the truck, I may have been confused. I'll check - that could be Asia/Japan region only as well. Or maybe it was the emulated version.

My memory is hazy on all the details. I believe the USA and Euro versions were the most "correct and complete" [superior] versions.

[Ganelon]

I just tested out what the video indicated on my Cannon Dancer PCB and in all 3 circumstances (shadow enveloping you, shadow displaced, and shadow returning), Kirin was able to destroy the box. I even tried destroying the box early as the shadow was returning and just as the shadow finished returning and in every case, Kirin destroyed the box.

Perhaps there are different versions, but what doesn't make sense is to attribute that solely to region since I recall people saying they were able to change regions with 1 bit change. And in that case, it doesn't make sense there would be a bug in one but not the other.

As some folks know, I find it difficult to accept any belief without empirical evidence. The only thing we can see for sure right now is that the emulated version of Osman is suffering from this glitch and that at least one version of Cannon Dancer (if not all) is fine.

[ForeverSublime]

Excellent info. Do you know if your PCB is the Japanese version or Asia version?

I'm not emulator savvy, really. Is there a way to see the revision code and compare it to a PCB?

Edit: Are you saying people are 1-bit swapping the region on the emulator?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Are you saying people are 1-bit swapping the region on the emulator?

Some ROMs are multiregional, but if you wanna play the Japanese version of this one, you need two roms: Osman (World) - parent ROM and Cannon Dancer (Japan) - clone ROM. Usually parent works without a clone, but not the other way around.

[ForeverSublime]

I just double checked what I said earlier about the Japan and Asia region PCBs having the bug, and at least in my case it's true. The Japanese version also doesn't have a tuition after pressing the start button. (just to point out differences between regions)

Ganelon, can you double check the region of your PCB? Perhaps we can confirm there are more revisions of this game and may lead to other small differences.

USA/Europe/Asia PCBs show the "Osman" title screen and play in English. The way to differentiate which is by looking at the first row (SW1) of dips in the test menu.

USA and Europe have the same dips (which would suggest they are 99% identical releases, and why they both don't have the bug). Dips:

11XXXXX1

Although the Asia region PCB plays in English, it has different dips and the bug is present, from what I know:

01XXXXX1

Japan version plays in Japanese and shows the "Cannon Dancer" title screen, so that one is easy to spot. Dips:

01XXXXX0
*******************************************
The emulated version ("World") is the Asia version, and I can confirm that with the default dips of the emulated version:

01000001

That explains why the emulated game plays in English and still has the bug. "World" = Asia. Not Europe, not USA.

Whatever SW1, dip 1 is - that seems to control the bug to my untrained eye. If it's off (0) there's the bug. If it's on (1), the bug is gone. If that's true, I imagine there can be a Japanese version without the bug if the dip settings were 11000000. That's a guess.

I don't know exactly how emulators work - but what I know and understand of the game, I do believe the ROM dump is different than what I own. Therefore, there could certainly be a couple revisions of the same region floating out there, and part of me would be delighted if there was a Japanese version with 11XXXXX0 dips. I'm excited to hear what versions others have (via the first row of dips, what language the game is in, and if the bug is present). Please share.

[Ganelon]

Here are the dips I see on my Cannon Dancer (Japan) PCB. There are 3 switch banks of 8 switches each. I'll refer to the positions as (0,0) on the top-left, (7,0) on the top-right, and (7,7) on the bottom-right. Here's what the dips are on my board as well as the setting and purpose according to the SWITCH MENU (in bold). I'm not sure these are the defaults (and there's no way to revert to that) so maybe someone who bought the board new and remembers the original settings can provide some info on that?

SWITCH0:
(0,0): 1 (damage when shadow is returning)
(1,0): 1 (# of buttons)
(2,0): 0 (# OF BOMBS)
(3,0): 0 (# OF BOMBS)
(4,0): 0 (# OF LIVES)
(5,0): 0 (# OF LIVES)
(6,0): 0 (SCREEN ROTATION)
(7,0): 0 (language)

SWITCH1:
(0,1): 0 (# OF PLAYERS)
(1,1): 1 (# OF PLAYERS)
(2,1): 0 (GAME DIFFICULTY)
(3,1): 0 (GAME DIFFICULTY)
(4,1): 0 (unknown)
(5,1): 0 (EXTEND)
(6,1): 0 (CONTINUE)
(7,1): 0 (DEMO SOUND)

SWITCH2:
(0,2): 0 (COIN 1)
(1,2): 0 (COIN 1)
(2,2): 0 (COIN 1)
(3,2): 0 (COIN 2)
(4,2): 0 (COIN 2)
(5,2): 0 (COIN 2)
(6,2): 0 (attract mode version)
(7,2): 0 (BLOOD)

ForeverSublime: So it looks like your hypothesis about the very 1st switch affecting this issue may be on target. I wonder if anyone can adjust this and the other 3 unknown switches (although it's possible some do nothing) within the ROM itself?

EDIT: Updated values based on tests ForeverSublime ran

[ForeverSublime]

Wow, looks like you got yourself a good board.

"Bug free PCB, 300000Y shipped"

I think I can identify 3 different PCB releases, now, between what you own, I own, and the ROM dump. I think either Strider77 or Lawnspic owns the PCB that was dumped. My friend bought an Osman PCB from "The Guru" and later sold it to one of those two guys.

I also have the default dip switch info. . . can dig that up easily. As far as I know, the only difference in defaults is that Asia version PCB has 2 lives instead of 3. Also, you may get a kick out of this. . . the default info for JPN region appears to be 01XXXXX0 from what I know. I really wonder what point in the production this got changed.

I confirmed, in another way, switch 1 is responsible for the bug for some reason. I modified the NVRAM of the emulated version of the game and that one change took the bug away. I have no idea why such a small change would make the difference - and that is the only difference I made to the NVRAM file.

(Here's a video - I just changed the 01XXXXXX to 11XXXXXX you can see in the test menu)

Japanese emulated ROM without the bug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-VOiFG_Xf8

I suppose if anyone wants the file to drop into their NVRAM folder of their MAME file, I could email it. I also have a USA region switch NVRAM file. Or is there honor in keeping some value in things not being emulated?

Edit: Hi, Ganelon and Strider77. Looks like you guys had a blast at the game gathering. I used to live on the east coast and hang with some of those guys from ng.com (I saw the pics over there). Small world.

[Ganelon]

Nice, that's very strange if this (0,0) dip switch always performed this role and Mitchell suddenly decided to make it normal. As for defaults, the primary one that concerns me is the number of players. 3 seems to be the intuitive norm but a dip setting of "00" (corresponding to 2 lives) is usually the default rather than "01." Are you able to modify the other 3 dips in the NVRAM and see if that produces any noticeable effect?

Anybody still got a connection to Mitchell? After all, they were selling brand new Osman board up until late 2005 and I remember folks from Shmups organized several group buys well before then. That may have been on the last Shmupsforum iteration and/or the one before that but maybe someone here has a connection or can at least verify which version they received? Or maybe Isuke could shed some light on the dip change since Scion recently interviewed him?

And yeah, ilazul's gathering was a blast and it was great to see Strider77 rep Shmups with a number of Cave PCBs as well as this gem. I didn't play Osman there so I'm not certain what version he had.

[ForeverSublime]

Sometimes one "fix" can cause other problems. I'll see if that (0, 0) switch does something else noticeable - as I said before, I seem to remember the truck/cars moving/not moving. Perhaps they were trying to make that work, but couldn't because it affected something else and this little bug was a result.

I'll also see if I can change those other unknown dips. Who knows what might turn up - invincibility, sound test. . . I already tried entering values for "unlimited" bombs and such, but it didn't work unless I did it incorrectly.

I really don't know much about about RAM/ROM stuff - just good with patterns is all.

Strider77, do you remember if you bought your PCB from member A|O|F / ArtOfFighting?

[Strider77]

I got it from battlesmurf.... It's the USA board.

[undamned]

Mine was from a batch Mitchell order that Venom put together. If there's anything else you want verified I can check my PCB out.
-ud

[Battlesmurf]

I got it from battlesmurf.... It's the USA board.

Haha. It's just a game I absolutely love to hate. Beautiful, tight controls, great gameplay. I think I've bought it 3 separate times so far- seems to be my thing every couple of years. Sadly, the last one I got from Hermosaguy I had planned on keeping until it was loaned out and never came home :/ I want to get another one if anybody is selling : )

[ForeverSublime]

Ah! This is neat.

Bank 1, Dip 2 converts the game from 3 buttons to 2 buttons when turned off (example, 00000001 instead of 01000001). After you press start, the tuition shows your attack, jump and slide - then play begins. It doesn't show the bomb special. However, if you don't insert a coin and you watch the attract mode Osman still uses a bomb against Sandora and on the ship. I tried to play with 2 buttons AND have bombs in stock, but there was no way to use them that I could tell. I tried various button combinations - A+B, QCF, 360, Combo attack, piledriver, full power combo, etc. It makes me wonder if the bombs were an afterthought, and they were included perhaps to decrease the difficulty of the game after playtesting (that's complete speculation). There aren't any bomb pickups in the game, so I don't think it's an absurd notion. However, I seem to recall other games with 3 --> 2 button switches (but don't know for sure), so perhaps this feature is somewhat normal. It's just odd that the feature was included yet can't be accessed via the dips.

Region is determined within the ROM, not the NVRAM from what I understand. The final dip on switch bank 1 simply changes the language (not the region). I speculate the regions are present in the ROM not to have any changes in the game play, but for legal reasons.

I spoke too absolutely before. Since there are Japanese PCBs with 11XXXXX0 dip settings there could be more of those than I assumed (just went with what I own and what was emulated - perhaps the sample size is too small to draw conclusions). Likewise, it's possible there are some USA and Euro PCBs out there with the bug and the corresponding 01XXXXX1 dip settings (though we haven't seen any of those yet).

Edit: I got my cab from battlesmurf and he lives just across the bay. Small world, again. There's probably only 5 PCBs, and we're just passing them around to each other.

[ForeverSublime]

Ah, damnit. I did a bomb attack even with two buttons. I should have been recording. . .

Situation: Prague
I just defeated Wilff and started running.
The spinning droid with the 2 lasers appeared.
I was probably at full speed
I slid, jumped/attacked, hit the droid, and did a bomb attack
Was it a desperation move (did I get hit?)?
A bug? (switch 0 was off, if that's related)
Was it triggered because I was at full speed. . . and slid. . . ?
Was it triggered because I did a speed burst out of the slide?

Anyway, it's possible. Somehow. Somewhy.

[undamned]

^ I'm pretty sure you just followed some poetic format with that post. Maybe you could print it on parchment or something
-ud

[ForeverSublime]

@ud: Ha!

New dip switch:

Last dip bank, switch 7 (the switch between the coins and the blood)

This cues a slight alteration to the demo mode. I took a vid for those completionists out there. It's not entertaining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0Xq-Abz9XY

If I could divine something interesting from it, it's these two tidbits:

1. You can press the start button to cycle through some parts of the attract mode (as is traditional with many other attract modes with other games)
2. You'll notice the score starts at 0 when the levels in this attract mode begin, unlike the regular attract mode where no score/bomb/time data is shown. Perhaps a level select feature is out there in the ROM data? (of course there is, if you can access that deep)

That's all for a few days. It looks like there's 1 dip left. In the MAME documentation I see someone uncovered this dip before, but marks it as "unknown difference" (but then again, he marked the "collision dip" that as well - understandably). Hopefully I'll be able to spot something even if it's subtle - but we shouldn't expect it to be anything major.

[Ganelon]

undamned: Sure, I guess the thing to check would be the first dip of the first bank and see whether it's a 1 or 0. You likely have a copy of the last Osman run so it would be interesting to see.

Also, I was curious whether the default setting for # of players was 3 if you still have it set to factory standards or remember that. And yes, it's all coming back that Venom was the guy running all the batch orders; but as suspected, he doesn't post here anymore.

ForeverSublime: Great findings! What's the difference between region and language? Does language affect whether the game is Cannon Dancer or Osman? And are the regions comprised of what you initially listed (Japan, US, Europe, Asia)? Is there any way to see which region a board is?

[ForeverSublime]

Oh, I can't believe I wrote this wall of text and the system timed out.

Here are the defaults as derived from the ROM data, not NVRAM.

Coin 1 : 1 Coin / 1 Credit
Coin 2 : 1 Coin / 1 Credit
Screen Rotation : Off
Demo Sound : On
Continue : On
Game Difficulty : Normal
# of Players : 3
# of Lives : 3 (Asia Region defaults to 2 in some, if not all, PCBs)
Extend : 1,000,000 Only
Blood : On
# of Bombs : 3

Other Defaults in ROM data [in some, if not all, PCBs] :

Dip 1 "Collision Dip" :

Japan Region : Off
Asia Region : Off
USA Region : On
Euro Region : On

Dip 8 "Language" :

Japan Region : Off (Japanese)
Asia Region : On (English)
USA Region : On (English)
Euro Region : On (English)

+Notes

+These defaults are pulled from ROM data, not NVRAM. Michell Corp could have decided to ship the actual product with different defaults. For instance, any PCB going to Europe could have been shipped with Blood = Off in the NVRAM even though it is On in the ROM default
+ROM dump is Asia Region, yet defaults to Lives = 3 in NVRAM instead of Lives = 2 as in the ROM data. Mitchell Corp could have shipped Asia PCBs with Lives = 3 in the NVRAM, but it is equally possible the owner switched the setting to 3 and that was saved in the non-volatile RAM before being dumped. I don't know how the MAME team determines their defaults after a ROM is dumped.
+There doesn't appear to be a Euro region accessible in the ROM dump. I have a Euro ROM set.
+There are no defaults listed in the manual. (?)*Double check this
+I use the phrase "in some, if not all, PCBs" because my sample size of actual hardware is too small. There could have be other ROM revisions. What Mitchell Corp decided got the official stamp of approval in the NVRAM could vary country to country, year to year, production run to production run.
+++I acknowledge what the ROM data says might not be the defaults Mitchell Corp shipped the product with in the NVRAM. There are manufacturing/corporate/legal/technical reasons we are not aware of.