Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Klatrymadon wrote:Got to the dragon without breaking a sweat tonight. This game is so full of "why didn't I simply do that three hours ago?" moments (often hot on the heels of "fuck this, I can't be arsed" moments). From seeing it in others' videos I'd assumed the dragon was a piece of piss, but it's currently sending me to bed humbled.
With the caveat that I found GNGR's bosses consistently easier than their stages (just like Dai's), I actually had the warmest time with Dragon, prior to Zone 5. Mostly due to the short but involved pre-fight sequence, and the battle proper's continually-escalating format. That last attack is genuinely pretty nasty, combined with the perilous footing. Has that "DIE YOU BASTARD" / TOTAL WAR aesthetic befitting of dragonslaying. :cool:

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"Owww! My eyes! My eyes are red hot. Arthur, you rat! You weren't using "Boxer Boxers" magic! You were daubing that knife in your own shit I just finished knocking out of you, to hit me with The Ol' Spicy Punji. How could you give your old Makaimura colleague the Spicy Punji, Arthur?" Image

*cans.wav intensifies*

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EDIT: Oh! New page. Happy 10 years of R2RKMF, everyone. Image Image
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

Klatrymadon wrote:Got to the dragon without breaking a sweat tonight. This game is so full of "why didn't I simply do that three hours ago?" moments (often hot on the heels of "fuck this, I can't be arsed" moments). From seeing it in others' videos I'd assumed the dragon was a piece of piss, but it's currently sending me to bed humbled.
It's a hard boss. Even harder because of the lackadaisical, meandering flight he takes to the boss arena. The key is to go into phase 3 with all your resources. Easier said than done. Phase 1 is simple but a stray hit can ruin your day. Phase 2 has some nasty patterns. Jumping to increase movement speed and using the platforms to drop down/jump up are the best ways to avoid his various charges. Don't forget about the 3 ass bullets he shoots at you on his way off the screen. Phase 3 can be chaotic as fuck if he decides to spin2win, which is why it's best to go in with full resources. Other than that, it takes time to learn all his patterns.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Klatrymadon »

Thanks, both! Yeah, the spin2win pattern seems particularly nasty. I found I was getting hit a lot as he just slowly floated around during phase 2 - misjudging how close I was to the body as I tried to be greedy with a Doppel transformation, or something. Phase 1's rippling scales are similarly tricky to grasp - their movement speeds might be fairly uniform or at least easy to judge, but the dragon's own subtle changes in movement speed can easily cause you to over/undershoot with a jump, seeming to accelerate your movements at times.

Also, am I right in thinking hits in phase 1 aren't actually doing any damage to the thing? :P
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

I've no corroborating data, but I did get the feeling the autoscroller hits were just for promotional purposes. :mrgreen:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

I've heard conflicting reports on phase 1. Some people say the hits do no damage at all. Others say the hits do not damage him, but they will lower the health he has for phase 2. Regardless which you believe, the strategy is the same. Dodge everything and do not get hit. If you have a spare moment in phase 1 to hit the boss a few times, feel free. But don't take damage getting greedy.

I didn't have doppleganger or gold armor for the Dragon, so I spent some time steadily pecking away his health. The thing about phase 3 is he can give you these super slow patterns (gliding forward with a giant target on his face) if you get lucky. Or he can completely fuck you with high speed spin2win. If you make it to phase 3 with an extra hit and then get the easy pattern, you'll have a very good chance for the kill. The best way to deal with spin2win as a novice player is probably to focus on dodging and not try to damage him. Let him go off the screen and reset. Maybe he'll come back with the slowpoke pattern next time.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Klatrymadon »

Cheers, folks! Got him just now, having basically done as Sima suggested - focused on keeping away from him and throwing the odd dagger from a good position. Phase 2 is really simple if you do this - just clock the direction he emerges from and his general trajectory and get away. Thankfully, he started phase 3 with some slow movements and was only about to go into spin2win just as he died.

76 deaths on that stage. At least 70 of them to the prison goblins, I reckon. :mrgreen:

Edit: by the way, I don't suppose there's a cheeky way (on PS4) to use a different button configuration than the two provided? I want square for attack and triangle for jump, which is the most comfortable arrangement on an arcade stick for me, but the game doesn't allow it...
Last edited by Klatrymadon on Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

I think the last time I killed him, he was unleashing the spinneh-mah-winneh right as I jump-downshotted him. :lol: Nasty bugger for sure.
Klatrymadon wrote:Edit: by the way, I don't suppose there's a cheeky way (on PS4) to use a different button configuration than the two provided? I want square for attack and triangle for jump, which is the most comfortable arrangement on an arcade stick for me, but the game doesn't allow it...
Yep! I did that myself. Go to Settings, then Accessibility Options, then Button Assignments, and you can remap every button on the controller (besides Share/Options/Home). You can remap the d-pad's individual buttons, too.

If you hold the [home] button, you can put the "Use Custom Button Assignments" option there; very handy if you want to quickly rest to defaults for other games. Great feature, I just wish they'd let you keep a few different profiles.

I put [switch weapon] on R1, since I'm so used to that from Saigo and other games. Really nice being able to instantly chuck an Iron Ball onto would-be duckers, or bust out the Cross for incoming shots, between the lynchpin Dagger barrages.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Lander »

Dragon is a cool fight, manages to be very cinematic without falling into the no-gameplay trap. My gut says damage in phase 1 shrinks the phase 2 health bar, since I played super aggressive throughout and always seemed to knock a shocking amount of length off his tail with my initial barrage after reaching the arena.

Though this was with Doppelganger, so might just have been the conjunction of high DPS with a generous damage window.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Come to think of it, I seem to recall cutting Phase 2 down pretty fast, too; and I was consistently hammering Phase 1 with Doppelganger (Iron Ball is great here, with its ground tracking). Maybe I'd have found him more durable sans that...
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Lander »

Having some tremendous fun with Shadow Fennecs' Tower. Did you know you can deep-fry an Arremer by tempting it to land near lava?

...Only to have it pull an I LIVED BITCH on your complacent ass shortly thereafter :lol:

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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Honestly at this stage, I wouldn't be surprised to see a GNGR Arremer survive me yanking the PS4's plug out of the wall :lol:

Actual footage of a noob yanking the power to escape GNGR Arremers
Spoiler
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Surprisingly compelling little metagame, gambling on charging up that LV3 Thunder to nuke 'em. :cool: As ever, this game's balance of the thoughtful and the face-shreddingly hardcore is sublime. And a reminder... they are not competing forces, but one and the motherfucking same! Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

I feel like the dragon doesn't take real damage during phase 1 either. I'm kind of curious to test it now, but both my previous and current playthroughs of the game have left me feeling that way. Mikehaggar's excellent Legend 1LC posted above has him saying the same thing, too, and to be honest I trust him over my own impression here. That said, it does feel unusual that it even has a reaction for being hit if it really is invincible.
Klatrymadon wrote:I'm nowhere near that becoming a problem, but I've definitely heard a few people say they didn't bother getting the 'true' ending because the conditions for it just weren't much fun. I guess I'll find out for myself soon enough!

My only gripe with the game is a total non-issue, really. It's that the modernised structuring of the game, with its unlimited lives and Progress Pennons acting essentially as bonfires, makes the proceedings feel relatively low-stakes. Deaths feel insignificant for the most part because you're only ever a few seconds away from your next attempt at the same obstacle. Obviously, nobody wants to lose a 40-minute run to a silly mistake, and dying just short of the next checkpoint still hurts, but it feels to me as though some element of risk or investment has been lost...

(Of course, the simple solution to this is just to put my money where my mouth is and go for the 1LC...)
This gets me too. The game is still fundamentally well-designed enough to go for a no-death run, so it's not a massive deal - but damn lol, I haven't no-missed the original games, which are much easier and which I'm much more familiar with. It is kind of a shame that there's no middle ground between a no-miss and credit-feeding, given how towering a goal the former is.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Yeah, a basic Arcade Mode would've been cool. Three lives and a few extends, +1 to ones digit when continuing, all that jazz. It would really illuminate GNGR's true form... this is no Kaizo/IWBTG see-it-once gag shop. This is a diamond-tough arcade thoroughbred, meticulously crafted by an esteemed master, made to rekindle the iconic fear and resilience responses of its predecessors; one that, with knowingly sparing tweaks - infinite lives and savefiles - seamlessly doubles as a consolised action/adventure. A Shin Makaimura that's also Demon's Souls via Demon's Blazon.

The formless beauty of GNGR is, this already exists, just in your brains, liek Image It's Augustamura, or DaiRallyMura, the way all arcade games ultimately are, only without the hard "You've hit the wall, loser!" and "BAHAHAHAAA! GIVE ME YOUR MONEH!" rails.

A cracking example of which can be found in charge attack and loincloths enthusiast Tokuhiro Takemori and co's Teh Lord of King!

(・`w´・)
( ・`w`・)>⌐■-■
(■`w´■) *ahem*

"DON'T YOU LIKE PLAYING THIS GAME? AHAHAHAHAHA!"
Spoiler
Image

Image


YOU CAN'T CLOSE SHIT! (■`w´■) (◎w◎;)[/size] [size=120][b]YOU ... /b][/size]

Clowns on 'em, then hits 'em with the mean mug, IN FRONT OF THEY FRIENDS :shock: God damn, Takermori-san!

GNGR just roundhouses you through the plate glass, clean out of the arcade to the other side of the road in an uproar of pigeons, then cheekily tosses you a credit while offering to drop the difficulty. Image "Abandon The Path of The King of The Britons Y/N? :3 :3 :3 " ("GOD DAMN IT!!! I CAN STILL FIGHT U!!!" Image Image)

Speaking of, I have to keep reminding myself while HellHunting, this is mahfuckin Loop 2. :lol: Caught myself thinking "Jeeze, I had this bit down..." only to remember the enemy encounter rates are juiced right up. It'd definitely benefit a single-sessioner to do this stuff in Loop 1. As ever, a Makaimura is for life, not just Christmas. Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Marc »

FUCK this fucking game to absolute FUCK.
I've just nearly rage hurled my Switch across my local pub.
XBL & Switch: mjparker77 / PSN: BellyFullOfHell
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Don't pull an Old Mills and punch your screen :shock: :wink:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

Marc wrote:FUCK this fucking game to absolute FUCK.
I've just nearly rage hurled my Switch across my local pub.
There's no shame lowering difficulty if you're about to become DSP over a vidya gaem.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Ahh, man. Armormend is hella useful for HellHunting. Image I was unimpressed by the exorbitant cooldown, not bothering with it during my initial stage clears. But when you know exactly where you're headed, being able to bust out Gold Armor on tap is amazing. Gold Doppelganger LV2 with Crossbow = NES Contra Spreadshot. :cool: Still fuckin tough and ruthless, but it's a huge momentum boost. Some of these Black Chests are pretty fiendish to trigger, at least while killing the bugger inside.

Anyone else love how the Magicians stick around noticeably longer than in Dai? So much less fraught, return-blasting the fuckers. I didn't realise Alablasters are exactly the same... got killed in the brutal Shadow Zone 4, before I could whack the bastard - then Resurrected and was able to waste him and net a couple stray Bees. Fucked right off to the map afterward. :lol:

Welcome 2... Tha LULZ FACTORY :shock: (EDIT: URL = "5PICY" Image)

Yeah, I knew there was some reason they'd made that uppermost route so simple! Just take the first two elevators all the way up, shoot n' nuke the turrets, don't set off any alarms, and you're at the midboss. Didn't know WTF I was doin in the lower routes, will have to figure something out for later play. Halfway there now, been surprisingly relaxing. Great excuse to experiment with weapons and spells/skills, too.

(Alablaster = White Mages found in the Black Chests; kill 'em and enjoy the KVLT thunderclash, then find the Hell Hole somewhere else in that stage sector; seems like it's always in the same sector where their Chest was found.

Probably old news to most here, but might help others ducking endgame spoilers :mrgreen:)
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Sir Ilpalazzo
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Working my way around to a replay of the shadow stages, scouring for hell holes, and I've only now reminded myself of something that's bothered me since my first plays of this game - what is up with Cerberus? I have no idea how you're supposed to manage his boss fight at all. Breaking it down:

-You need to stay on the offensive after he splits into three, or they'll reunify and drag the fight out, making it more likely you'll eventually slip up. So although you can generally avoid the split-up dogs' attacks by running far away, you also won't be able to do enough damage to kill them before they rejoin.

-The purple dog's flame breath hems you in and forces you to run beneath him; staying at mid-range while trying to run out of the reach of his stream isn't feasible. This also means you have to wait for him to lock in his direction before you start moving, since if you run behind him too early, he can turn and start firing. (Notably, you also can't jump to gain speed here because of all the platforms that will impede your horizontal movement - so the absolute only strategy here is to get on ground level and run either left or right according to where the purple dog is going to fire.

-This is all manageable, of course, but the problem is the orange dog. His pounce attack has a ridiculously massive hitbox and an inordinate amount of tracking. If it weren't for the platforms preventing you from jumping away and the other dogs, it would be manageable - but the purple dog's fire breath means you have no way of moving freely, and inevitably the pounce will smash you while you're making the movements necessary to get away from the flamestream.

What is the solution here? I've beaten him plenty of times but I'm pretty sure I've never once finished it with Arthur in anything but his boxers, just because of the orange dog's pounce.
BIL wrote: Yeah, I knew there was some reason they'd made that uppermost route so simple! Just take the first two elevators all the way up, shoot n' nuke the turrets, don't set off any alarms, and you're at the midboss. Didn't know WTF I was doin in the lower routes, will have to figure something out for later play. Halfway there now, been surprisingly relaxing. Great excuse to experiment with weapons and spells/skills, too.
Interesting! I completed shadow stage 4 for the first time last night and I had the opposite reaction. The turret plants on the topmost route are manageable enough on their own, but the second set is backed up by a group of erratic burritos that will continuously respawn, likely faster than your magic will recharge; I assumed it would be the easiest route to take as it is in the standard stage 4 and put a bunch of attempts in on it before coming to feel like the middle route is the simplest. You want a shot of Frog 2 to get rid of the second giant (I think trying to crouch-shot him with the dagger will see the highest of your shots tripping the arremer-spawning eye) but outside of that bit of minor memorization, it's not so bad. The first half of that stage seems shockingly easier than the loop 2 standard version of it, at any rate.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

I was messing about with Cerberus in last night's session, after finding the stage's second Hell Hole. I should go back and record, as I'm finally pretty confident. Ser Pounce is indeed a total menace, his comrades Rainy and The Blower aren't nearly as effective without his ass complicating things! I actually messed about with Quickening, but man... that thing conks out so fast, it almost feels like a glitch. Not at all recommended, imo. And the longer all three dogs are onscreen, the likelier you'll get tied up.

Instead, I've had good results using a well-timed Doppelganger to bait and then i-frame speedkill Pounce (much like in the preceding climb setpiece). He can't survive under focus fire, ideally Daggers. If there's one good thing about the bastard, it's that he'll readily come straight to you for quick dispatch. Just have to ensure you're not in Blower's line of fire during this. I typically don't know WTF Rainy is even doing, during, but he's NBD really.

re: the platforms, Lander made an excellent point about Option Select positioning. Feels like you should have a couple options open at all times, if possible, to counteract the dogs' speed. Basic info, but it's the kind of thing that's easy to forget in such hectic surroundings.

It's actually the second phase, with the reassembled Cerberus's lateral charges, that I find nervier atm. But that's mostly because I've been cheesing it with yet more Doppy Bomb since the start. :cool:

I almost wish they'd given Arthur's run just a few more pixels-per-second... besides Pounce, the Unicorn's diving stomp is also a lot deadlier than it might look to an observer. You don't have more than a split-second to get out from under either, owing as much to their huge hitboxes as their speed. On the other hand, bunnyhop is a good countermeasure, so it's ultimately NBD.

I really wonder if Quickening has some cutoff mechanic I'm unaware of... now I mention it, maybe jumping? It always feels short, but sometimes it's like being robbed blind and left in cooldown. :lol:

Besides the monster DPS and generous i-frame burst, this is why I love both Doppies; lots of mileage! Committed HYPER OFFENCE FORMATION Dagger + Boulder down to muscle memory. You don't want it the other way round, shot limit leaves Arthur vulnerable and reliant on his bros.

For Shadow Zone 4-1, upmost route, my partitioning is basically:

1] take first elevator up, snipe the lone turret while hauling ass to the next. (the Pink Gremlins can't catch up to you)

2] be ready to snipe all three ceiling turrets on entry; their firing schedule is RNG, but their aim is set, so it's very consistently doable.

3] press forward until you've got the very last ceiling turret, beyond the alarm, onscreen; then nuke the lot with your bomb of choice (I like Thunder L3). Job done, haul ass through to the vine before the Burritos gather.

This is nervy, since the ceiling turrets will be potshotting during the approach; but their fire is very baitable, and you can snipe a couple if need be. The really dangerous thing is missing the platform's descent - usually happens if I mistime my bomb, leaving Arthur invincible and unchallenged, yet immobilised. This'll strand you smack in the middle of Burrito Country, waiting on the paths ahead and back to re-open. As you say, the Shadow Burritos will have a field day, particularly with the moving terrain dragging you into their range (and keeping them out of yours).

This disaster is easily planned ahead of, though. I was nailing it so consistently, I started wondering if I'd stumbled on the EZmodo path. :mrgreen: GNGR being so fiendishly crafted, and giving you such a large toolkit, I bet there's a lot of these cases where players end up crafting their own safe routes, only to find others doing something completely different.

*I'm calling it Boulder for now, "Iron Ball" is clunking me euphonies hard, like 3; I wanna say it's the head of a Mace or Morningstar, salvaged from a monstrous fallen demon, heftable by only the buffest warrior KANGZ - except it's clearly the same Shot hefted by Big Bois. Then again, maybe they salvaged theirs too? Whee, headcanon!

Speaking of Big Bois, that fist-pumping idle animation makes me think of this gem from blackoak:
Hiroaki wrote:Overall, SNK had a lot of “jock” types. They kept 5kg barbells beside their desk, and every now and then they’d get up, stretch their arms, and in a semi-threatening voice say “Man, I’m getting stiff here. I need to pump!” Then they’d start lifting right there in the middle of the office. I’m sitting here thinking, “How the hell did these guys get into game development?”
Image

EDIT: Yo WTF you can jump over charging Big Bois?! :shock: They'll even slam face-first into walls, dohoho. Nice. :cool:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

I don't know how to kill Cerberus, but the 1LC strats DJMikeHaggar showcases rely on having gold armor for the damage boost. I assume he's much easier with Gold. I wouldn't know though, because my scrub ass can't stay in armor long enough to get Gold. :lol:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by mikehaggar »

I'm extremely pleased to notice this game has had a revival in this community, just read through all the GNGR talk!

It is easily my favorite Makaimura game in the series, and one of the greatest platformers ever made. As somebody who had earned the 1LC in all prior games (except the PSP game, it is still on my "eventually" list), I found this game absolutely astonishingly laughably difficult, much harder than all the previous games put together (pretending such a thing can even be quantified that way), but that is precisely what hooked me. It wasn't just difficult, but I understood what it asked of me. And I hate myself enough to dive right in.

It is so difficult that my first True Ending playthrough on Legend took me about 70 hours. The entire time I kept saying: "This is so great! It's too bad a 1 life clear is completely impossible. ESPECIALLY the true ending."

But then I kept playing. And playing. I eventually got the 1LC on a first loop clear. But I didn't want to stop. I decided to go for the 1LC on a full 7 stage first loop clear. I kept going. I decided to go for a 1LC on a full 7 stage shadow loop clear. Then, after that was done, I decided I wanted to go for what I thought was SURELY impossible. The first ever True Ending Legend 1LC.

I finally pulled that off, and I'm not done. I'm STILL playing and decided to start speedrunning it, which is extremely unlike me (I've only evwer speedrun one game in my life, NES Battletoads back in the 2000s, but typically I'm interested in 1LCs in games and don't care about speed.

This game is different. It is so absurd in its design and challenge that I feel like if I don't give it a significant amount of attention, I will be depriving myself or something special. There is so much possible tech/routing/strategizing that I don't even know where to begin. My current speedrunning record is 1:35, but I'm sure I can shave off yet another few minutes as I keep discovering small optimizing things here and there. I try to do a run every day on twitch...check me out! Link on my sig.

Last month marked TWO STRAIGHT YEARS I've been playing pretty much only this game, talk about being completely hooked.

The saddest thing though is having heaps of acquired knowledge about this game stored away in my brain that extremely few people care about. This game was criminally overlooked. But I understand, it's not for everybody. In fact, I would only recommend Legend to people with a very peculiar mindset. Knight mode for all others.

Keep enjoying the game folks! And feel free to ask if you have any questions, I'd love to share any info/strats if any of you decide to REALLY delve in after a single clear.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by mikehaggar »

Sir Ilpalazzo wrote:I feel like the dragon doesn't take real damage during phase 1 either. I'm kind of curious to test it now, but both my previous and current playthroughs of the game have left me feeling that way. Mikehaggar's excellent Legend 1LC posted above has him saying the same thing, too, and to be honest I trust him over my own impression here. That said, it does feel unusual that it even has a reaction for being hit if it really is invincible.
I was wrong about this for a LONG time. About 4 or 5 months ago (?) I finally learned that the damage you do to Dragon in the first phase actually affects his FINAL head-only phase. Basically, Dragon's final form has 2000hp. Each dagger shot does 100 damage, so he takes 20 hits to kill.

However, any damage you do to his first form takes away hp from his FINAL form, up to 1000hp.

What this means is that if you hit him 10 times in the initial form, then you only have to hit the final head 10 times to finish him off. Wish I'd known about this back in the first 1LC challenges I did! Very esoteric but...Makaimura's gonna Makaimura. :)

Note: Gold armor buffs all weapon by a 50% increase. This means gold dagger only takes 14 hits total to take out final form (or 7 hits in each of first/final forms)
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

Finally put a few credits into Kiki Kaikai Reshrined yesterday. It's great! Looks beautiful, has 8 levels full of good stuff, and the characters are all interesting and distinct. It's better than Nazo no Kuro Mantle. I think I like the new special abilities all the characters get, they're cool but they've got long charge up and activation times that make them a bit awkward to use. Sayo-chan (Pocky for English only peasants) for example can drop an orb and when she shoots it it fires its own homing shot at the enemy. It can be useful to hit awkward angles, and it seems like it might be a good plan B if you lose your powerup. She can also give herself a useful, temporary reflective shield. The stages and bosses feel a good bit harder than SFC Kiki Kaikai, but Reshrined is way, way more generous with resources, so I'm not sure which is the harder 1CC. A 1LC should be a good, approachable challenge in Reshrined, at least.

Natsume tweaked character handling a little bit. They tried to make it easier to aim your shots by delaying character rotation behind character movement. I'm not sure I like it. It's easier to aim diagonally while holding your position, but it's harder to make snap shots. I'd rather just have a locked shot button tbh. The protagonists' move speeds seem a bit sluggish to me too. I don't mind the delay on the dive and I think the slower startup on reflect attacks was a good change. Holding your ground and blocking everything was a little bit too easy and too effective in SFC Kiki Kaikai, having a little bit of a delay at least means you need to plan ahead a bit. Plus the level and enemy design are better about not encouraging camping.

I like what they did with weapon powerups. They added a third green pickup, and each color results in a unique shot type for each character. And if you pick up another powerup when you're already at full power, you go into a brief super mode where your shots are even stronger.

Enemies drop coins which you spend to gamble on powerups. Which item you get is seemingly randomized, but it's really based on the last digit on your coin counter, so with a little effort you can manipulate your results. I thought that might add an interesting element of resource management, however it seems that the optimal strategy is to farm for a few minutes to gather a few hundred coins in level 1 so you can afford to buy absolutely everything in the game. It's more of a wasted opportunity than an outright bad feature, though I worry about how it will affect score play.

The new characters seem to outshine the original protagonists, but they're all cool so I don't mind. The Natsume crew's differentiation over balance approach worked well in The Ninja Warriors Again, I'm happy to have more of that. I like Hotaru, she's more of a melee fighter and really changes how you approach the game.

The story is bizarrely convoluted with alternate timelines, two backstories for Black Mantle, and more. I don't really mind, it's just unexpected. What's worse is that they lock you into single player mode and you can't choose your own character, until you've cleared story mode and unlocked free mode. Fortunately there's a cheat: press LLLLRRRRLRLRLRLR on your d-pad or equivalent at the mode select screen. And unfortunately they kept the bad localized names for Sayo and Manuke if you play in English.

It's really good. This game existing at all is a dream come true for me.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Wonderful to hear from you, Mike! And doubly wonderful that you've had a chance to play KKR, Vanguard! This is a great 10th anniversary page. Both marked for index, which I've no excuse not to finalise now. :cool: (other than finding these last three Hellholes Image Image)
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

Happy tenth anniversary, and here's to ten more!
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

Awesome to hear from the GnG Resurrection legend himself in this very thread! :D
The saddest thing though is having heaps of acquired knowledge about this game stored away in my brain that extremely few people care about. This game was criminally overlooked. But I understand, it's not for everybody.
The best games never are, and are often unappreciated in their own time. But take heart, because games of high quality have a way of developing a fanbase over the years.
I was wrong about this for a LONG time. About 4 or 5 months ago (?) I finally learned that the damage you do to Dragon in the first phase actually affects his FINAL head-only phase. Basically, Dragon's final form has 2000hp. Each dagger shot does 100 damage, so he takes 20 hits to kill.

However, any damage you do to his first form takes away hp from his FINAL form, up to 1000hp.

What this means is that if you hit him 10 times in the initial form, then you only have to hit the final head 10 times to finish him off. Wish I'd known about this back in the first 1LC challenges I did! Very esoteric but...Makaimura's gonna Makaimura. :)
Yeah, that's confusing as hell and very much in keeping with the series' penchant for obscure systems players won't understand. But I'm glad that at least the game isn't lying to you when the dragon flashes red in phase 1. It DOES do something, and that's important because it means the feedback the game gives is consistent. Red flashing on hit = damage of some kind.

Regarding the new Pocky and Rocky:
I'd rather just have a locked shot button tbh
That was my big sticking point with the game. I never could get comfortable playing without some kind of strafe or lock shot. I realize other Pocky and Rocky games don't have it, but Shock Troopers does, dammit! And Shock Troopers is awesome.

You can kinda get a ghetto locked position if you play Rocky and mash a bunch, but I don't like mashing and the lock is timed.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

GNGR will be remembered as Fujiwara's masterpiece, I'm fairly confident. I've been playing the hell out of his AC/FC/SFC gameography for decades now, often having no idea he was even involved (I never paid much attention to individual creators, until the 2010s, when guys like blackoak, GSK, and Jonny2x4 started posting their invaluable translations of JP interviews). I'd happily keep this one if forced to choose; only threats would be Dai (eternally volatile, and immaculately streamlined - improbably enough, with its mandatory 2ALL!), and Demon's Blazon (a solid 16bit action/platformer, concealing one hell of a TLB... but an outright masterful atmospheric adventure, with an unforgettably gorgeous vision of Makai; sepulchral and melancholic, yet overrun with unruly life, a "living hell" in the most verdant sense).

In the here and now, it's an enduring testament to not just Fujiwara and co's expertise and integrity, but also their ingenuity; GNGR working so well as a Miyazaki-via-Blazon "Hard Action RPG," without sacrificing one iota of arcade rigour, is remarkable. I've wondered about that Gordian knot for a long time; I've never seen it solved nearly so authoritatively, nor so gracefully.

Regarding Cerberus/Pounce, and also the similarly quick Unicorn, I get the feeling that magic's i-frame burst isn't just a happy quirk, but a legit asset you're expected to deploy carefully. It instakills zako on contact, and paired with a decent weapon, it'll let you death-from-within even hard targets like piggies and big bois; it'll also let you beat a hasty retreat, straight through incoming flak if need be.

Posting this, as I noticed the Unicorn twins that kick off Zone 5 are a lot less troubling if I wait to cast Doppelganger until the fight starts, rather than going in with it equipped, and having to judge an incoming stomp.

I notice the Shadow Arremer lurking in Zone 4-1's lowermost right seems tougher than normal; had him consistently survive Thunder L3, while it'll blow away the ones in Shadow Graveyard. Not sure if that's a glitch, or if it might be something to do with the stage geography (it's possible to "miss," if the enemy you're targeting is even slightly offscreen). EDIT: Ohshi - the normal Arremer chilling under the chandelier, too. Blimey, good job I learned how to fight that one straight. I wonder if that was deliberate or just an oddity. Even the very last Shadow Loop's regulars die to a single Thunder L3.

I love the Equivalent Exchange going on with Shadow Grotto and Graveyard. :mrgreen: "Where are the Grotto's Dark hazard and Shadow Arremers?" a player who went straight through Execution Grounds might uneasily wonder. Don't worry, they're just on loan to the Graveyard! :cool: Want to see? :twisted:

(ah, dammit; I wish Alan Partridge clips weren't so policed on Youtube. His furious row with that paraplegic golfer would go great, here.

"Don't have a go at me! We went to a lot of trouble, getting you here! Do you know something - there's no disabled access at The Strand theatre tonight!"

"..."

"Because we've got all their ramps!")

Wonderful sense of place; as if the Dark itself exploded out of the Citadel's lowermost outskirts, at Loop 1's climax, settling its harrowing presence elsewhere. Also totally gels with Legend's "no preambles" ethos; when the overall intensity is this high, it's easy to tinker with the curve. Shadow Zone 4-1 gets a vacation; Shadow Zone 1A descends into nightmare. :lol:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Lander »

10th anniversary, that's a helluva heritage. Here's to another decade Image

Cerberus is interesting, I ended up finding the last phase most challenging since it's a reprisal of the first - which can be barrage'd through quick enough to not learn any real dodge tech - plus some bonus attacks on top.

The option select I ended up using was the platforms right in the center of the arena near the floor - if you hop onto one of them and run to its opposite end, you get enough margin to read his next move and either run horizontally or jump up to the next ledge depending.

Phase two is pretty tricksy, but can be managed fairly consistently by accounting for attack order. It always goes pounce, carpet bomb, flamethrower, so you can bait jumpy boi by starting away from the bosses and running in toward them (with a last moment hop for that extra bit of safety distance), essentially ignore B17 Bomba, and make sure to cross up pinky just before it starts to attack.

Done right, that buys a nice safe damage window, and puts you right in the middle of the pack to ensure you're in range. It's a setup best applied near the outer edges of the arena, since there are less ground-level platforms to interfere with any needed jump evasion.
BIL wrote:Ohshi - the normal Arremer chilling under the chandelier, too. Blimey, good job I learned how to fight that one straight.
This threw me really hard on my first few grotto attempts in loop 1... Twins, this early?!

I'm not entirely sure how, but my beeline-right-dont-wake-shady-climb-ladder stealth strat somehow avoided spawning the regular one entirely on loop 1, getting through to the lava elevator section more or less for free.
With the occasional statistical anomaly waiting at the top to keep me in my place, of course :mrgreen:
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Sir Ilpalazzo
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

You can reliably avoid that one. When you reach the branching path just before him, where you choose whether to go left (and up) or right, go left, jumping up onto the first platform that makes up the cliff-climbing route, then double back and go right. This will consistently cause the arremer to appear on the left rather than the right, allowing you to avoid him every time.
mikehaggar wrote: I was wrong about this for a LONG time. About 4 or 5 months ago (?) I finally learned that the damage you do to Dragon in the first phase actually affects his FINAL head-only phase. Basically, Dragon's final form has 2000hp. Each dagger shot does 100 damage, so he takes 20 hits to kill.

However, any damage you do to his first form takes away hp from his FINAL form, up to 1000hp.

What this means is that if you hit him 10 times in the initial form, then you only have to hit the final head 10 times to finish him off. Wish I'd known about this back in the first 1LC challenges I did! Very esoteric but...Makaimura's gonna Makaimura. :)

Note: Gold armor buffs all weapon by a 50% increase. This means gold dagger only takes 14 hits total to take out final form (or 7 hits in each of first/final forms)
Very interesting! That's good to know, and it does make the fight more satisfying that your attacks during the first phase are still consequential (even if you don't actually need to hit him that many times to lower his health as much as possible). It's great to see your posts here, too; your runs of the game are excellent.
BIL wrote: In the here and now, it's an enduring testament to not just Fujiwara and co's expertise and integrity, but also their ingenuity; GNGR working so well as a Miyazaki-via-Blazon "Hard Action RPG," without sacrificing one iota of arcade rigour, is remarkable. I've wondered about that Gordian knot for a long time; I've never seen it solved nearly so authoritatively, nor so gracefully.
Now going for the hell holes myself (I have to admit, I've done a bunch of legend and knight mode playthroughs already, including back on release... but I've never stepped into the second loop until now), this stands out to me as shockingly impressive too. Something is unavoidably lost within the game's core action as the player's power starts hitting critical mass upon collection of enough bees to roll around with Armormend, Thunder 3, Frog 2 - but it dovetails nicely into the game entering an exploration-heavy phase, reducing the sting of what otherwise might be awkward hunting and retreading, and the element of spell management that pops up is really fun. Sure, you can bust out Armormend to repair your mistake or give yourself free gold armor, but you'll be denying yourself a few critical frog nukes or doppelganger bombardments, so it becomes a genuine strategic choice. (Incidentally, I really like the subtle-yet-meaningful differences between Medusa, Frog, and Thunder 3, which all function as full-screen bombs but have their own strengths and weaknesses.)

I would also say that although this magic management does move some emphasis away from the more intimate action-platforming you have to do early on through the first, like, one-and-a-half loops, it feels fully earned; it's not as though the game becomes unchallenging, and that the levels are as brutal as they are when played manually adds catharsis to when you're able to start stomping over them with your increased power level.

The game feels like a more successful realization of what the original Ultimate Ghosts 'n Goblins release was trying for. I'm more a fan of the Kai revision myself (still one of the series' best games) but I think Fujiwara must have had a particular idea in mind for how to """casualize""" the classic GnG experience, which he had to walk back with Goku Makaimura Kai and only now, with Resurrection, has been wholly successful at. In that context, Resurrection feels even more impressive and like a real cumulation of his work.

It also bears repeating that GnG's firepower has never felt as good as it does in this game. Doppelganger being decoupled from the dagger and being useful in many situations, a set of weapons that mostly each have their own uses, and, most importantly, the addition of extra weapon slots make this game's shooting the best that the series has ever had. The torch or the wrecking ball would be uselessly cumbersome (but still likable enough, as I think the torch has kind of been ever since Ghouls 'n Ghosts) but Kitted Out means they can now serve as subweapons alongside your straight-shooting dagger, finally now freed from having to be judged as awkward primary weapons. Absolutely fantastic addition, and I would say that the multiple weapon slots are the single best mechanical change made in this game.

Too much to respond to, so I'll just say that saving doppelganger activation i-frames for when the red Cerberus pounces does seem like a better strategy for sure (and agreed, I had a lot of trouble with the Cyclops at first). Actually I find the bosses in this game pretty problematic in general, so I would disagree on that front. The dragon isn't too bad (I try to get up into the top middle of the stage so I can quickly drop down during the second phase), but Cyclops's stomps are nervy (he gives me much less trouble now than on my initial playthroughs, though; you seem fairly safe as long as you make sure to keep constantly moving - it's just standing still that will get you unavoidably trapped), I already whined about Cerberus, and I think Beelzebub and Astaroth are really difficult fights too - I still need to figure out a proper way to prepare for Beelzebub's fly swarm charges, haven't been able to identify a good pattern for them at all.
Vanguard wrote:I don't mind the delay on the dive and I think the slower startup on reflect attacks was a good change. Holding your ground and blocking everything was a little bit too easy and too effective in SFC Kiki Kaikai, having a little bit of a delay at least means you need to plan ahead a bit. Plus the level and enemy design are better about not encouraging camping.
Haven't had the chance to play this yet, sadly, but your commentary makes me more excited to. This sounds like an extremely positive change; the strength and ease of the shot deflect in the original game is part of the reason I'm a bigger fan of Twinkle Tale (not that the SNES original isn't thoroughly fantastic). The turning change makes it sound like movement becomes even more methodical, though, which is potentially worrying - I'm definitely curious to check it out sometime.
Last edited by Sir Ilpalazzo on Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Nahar »

Does anyone know if a forum similar to this one exists for this kind of games? Ninja Gaiden style side scrollers, Metal Slug style run and gun, etc.
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