Games that are Overrated

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Vanguard
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Re: Games that are Overrated

Post by Vanguard »

None of those have good combat mechanics except for maybe JA2 (people tell me it's good, but they said the same about Fallout 1). If we're only judging these as interactive stories, then the best one is just personal preference. Which do you prefer, moé or snark? Immersive sims are a strong argument in WRPGs' favor though, as are traditional roguelikes. Might be about even with those in mind.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

Post by Air Master Burst »

Vanguard wrote:None of those have good combat mechanics except for maybe JA2 (people tell me it's good, but they said the same about Fallout 1). If we're only judging these as interactive stories, then the best one is just personal preference. Which do you prefer, moé or snark? Immersive sims are a strong argument in WRPGs' favor though, as are traditional roguelikes. Might be about even with those in mind.
I feel the same way about most Jarpigs, so different strokes I guess? What do you consider a good example of that top 5% of Jarpigs?
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Re: Games that are Overrated

Post by Sima Tuna »

What anyone considers good gameplay is of course going to be somewhat subjective.

Personally, I think Romancing Saga 3, FFT, and Saga Scarlet Grace gameplay is very good. I also happen to think Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights and Divinity OS 2 gameplay is very good as well. They are quite different, naturally. Divinity Original Sin 2 isn't even close to my favorite game, but I will say that I consider the gameplay far and away the best part of that game. Story and characters I would rank as rather mediocre, aside from a few bright spots (like Sebille and Red Prince.)

Some people hate certain warpigs because they hate real time with pause. That's fair. If you don't like it, you don't like it. I think real time with pause can work very well if the pausing system is robust. At its best, you can get a system of autopause going where the game automates easy fights while becoming nearly turn-based in boss encounters. Not too dissimilar from how games like SMT Nocturne will include a rush mode that auto-attacks and activates turbo speed. Gets rid of those obnoxious trash mobs.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

Post by Air Master Burst »

Sima Tuna wrote:Personally, I think Romancing Saga 3, FFT, and Saga Scarlet Grace gameplay is very good.
All Square games, huh? Nothing wrong with that, I just think it's interesting all your examples are from the same company.

I think the Jarpig with the gameplay I enjoyed most would be either Grandia 2 or Front Mission 5, with a special shoutout to the dope ship battles in Skies of Arcadia. These are great games!

If we're talking pure strategy and tactics though, Jagged Alliance 2 rips off everyone else's head and shits down their still-gushing neck stumps. That includes every other Warpig, too.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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What gets me about the "eww RTwP" thing is that these are different games. The IE game interpretation is as much an RPG as some kind of exceptionally fucked up RTS (tip: if you're watching unbuffed characters slowly take swings at each other, you're playing it wrong). Trying to make a value comparison with RPGs of conventional styling is pointless. Meanwhile, the NWN/KOTOR/etc interpretation would be dogshit even if it gave you full party control.

The real problems of RTwP warpigs aren't any different than historical warpigs at large: awkward, tedious UIs; overly grand high-concept design that involves meandering around doing nothing; misleading, broken or just plain absent mechanics; crap AI or difficulty management that makes no attempt to exploit the game properly, and so on.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Lethe wrote:The real problems of RTwP warpigs aren't any different than historical warpigs at large: awkward, tedious UIs; overly grand high-concept design that involves meandering around doing nothing; misleading, broken or just plain absent mechanics; crap AI or difficulty management that makes no attempt to exploit the game properly, and so on.
It kinda sounds like most of your Warpig experience is just shitty Bioware games. You can safely ignore everything they made after BG1, it's all varying degrees of garbage. To really get the best from the genre you need to go back to the first half of the 90s. Shit like Ultima 6/7, Might & Magic 6/7, Wizardry 6/7 (yeah, the 6th and 7th installments of RPG franchises being amazing was totally a thing back then), Betrayal at Krondor, Realms of Arkania... It was a thriving genre full of certified bangers before Warcraft and C&C ran through and left it for dead.

Since we're sticking to gameplay, I would recommend Tower of Elemental Evil as a somewhat less ancient entry. The story is barely there, and everything outside of combat is kind of a janky mess, but once combat starts it's a far better interpretation of tabletop D&D than Bioware ever managed (even if it is based on 3.5, which, gross).
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Re: Games that are Overrated

Post by Lethe »

I've played most of those at some point (not Krondor, ToEE relatively recently) and they all have those issues to a more or less extent. Minus the "absent mechanics" part Ultima meets the list of complaints to a T. I'm not saying these problems make the games bad - I'm old enough to be familiar with DOS trappings and have an un?healthy tolerance for weird jank in general - but I wish they didn't exist nonetheless. Dealing with them is trying on my time, especially now that I'm acclimatized to the standards of arcade games. BG2 is the only warpig I replay these days, and that's partially because it has convenience cheats and is very easy to mod into something entertaining.

I have zero experience with recent "traditional" western stuff, or much recent western stuff at all besides roguelikes, and there it's mostly derivatives of old games. I really don't like these buildshit rulesets which the big names seem to all revolve around. From the outside it seems like everything is numbers munchkinnery with questionable core gameplay to back it up.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Air Master Burst wrote:
Sima Tuna wrote:Personally, I think Romancing Saga 3, FFT, and Saga Scarlet Grace gameplay is very good.
All Square games, huh? Nothing wrong with that, I just think it's interesting all your examples are from the same company.

I think the Jarpig with the gameplay I enjoyed most would be either Grandia 2 or Front Mission 5, with a special shoutout to the dope ship battles in Skies of Arcadia. These are great games!

If we're talking pure strategy and tactics though, Jagged Alliance 2 rips off everyone else's head and shits down their still-gushing neck stumps. That includes every other Warpig, too.
Those were just the first examples that popped into my head. I also like the gameplay of Phantasy Star IV and II, Illusion of Gaia, Front Mission DS (or SNES), Suikoden I, Arc the Lad II and Devil Survivors Overclocked. To name some others. I never played the Grandia games but always meant to. Skies of Arcadia is a cool game with awesome ship battles, but the ship combat is so slow that you can literally use the bathroom or make a sandwich in the time it takes for a single turn to pass. I know from experience, playing that game on gamecube as a kid. I don't remember if it had any fast forwarding mechanics, but if it did, they weren't nearly fast enough.

Skies deserves a remaster btw. It's criminal when such an influential and beloved title is primarily limited to emulation for the majority of gamers.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Lethe wrote:From the outside it seems like everything is numbers munchkinnery with questionable core gameplay to back it up.
You just described like every Jarpig ever. Disgaea is literally just an eternal loop of numbers munchkinnery and suffering.
Lethe wrote:I've played most of those at some point (not Krondor, ToEE relatively recently) and they all have those issues to a more or less extent. Minus the "absent mechanics" part Ultima meets the list of complaints to a T.
I won't get into a fruitless text parser debate, but Ultima 7 has a fantastic UI. The only real issue is digging through multiple windows for inventory management. It's certainly a lot more elegant and intuitive than whatever this shit is:

Image

Your "Walking around doing nothing" complaint is essentially the same one I have about the mindless grinding that every Jarpig is full of. The rest of your general complaints are so vague I don't really know how to address them.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Holy fuck, that's even worse than the already hideous UI in Persona 5.

Oh wait, this is the overrated games thread! Yeah, Persona 5. What a miserable, boring, forgettable, and ridiculously long slog that game is.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Most Persona games I find it be quite overrated, especially compared to *adjusts hipster glasses* their SMT counterparts.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Air Master Burst wrote:I feel the same way about most Jarpigs, so different strokes I guess? What do you consider a good example of that top 5% of Jarpigs?
There are a great number of excellent Japanese action RPGs. FromSoft's Souls series, Ys Origin, Ys The Oath in Felghana, and Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link are pretty well respected around here, and I'm personally a big fan of Taito's Cadash as well. I don't believe WRPGs can realistically compete here.

For pure turn-based gameplay, imo none of the RPGs you regularly hear about have outstanding combat. Stuff like SMT Nocturne and Etrian Odyssey are serviceable but not much more than that. I'd rate SaGa Scarlet Grace one step above those. You get the really good stuff from doujin games. Labyrith of Touhou 1 and 2 are contenders for having the best combat in a turn-based RPG, and there are a bunch of other standouts, such as the criminally underrated Potato Flowers in Full Bloom. I feel like when these are into account, pure turn-based gameplay is another clear win for JRPGs, although I'm not very familiar with modern indie WRPGs so it's quite possible they've got some good stuff of their own.

WRPGs win overall when it comes to roguelikes, though there are still a few exceptionally good Japanese ones, like Shiren the Wanderer and One Way Heroics.
Sima Tuna wrote:At its best, you can get a system of autopause going where the game automates easy fights while becoming nearly turn-based in boss encounters. Not too dissimilar from how games like SMT Nocturne will include a rush mode that auto-attacks and activates turbo speed. Gets rid of those obnoxious trash mobs.
This is why RTwP is trash. The sole upside is that you can let easy fights play out on their own... even though autocombat systems already exist for turn based games too. In a difficult fight, RTwP is just turn-based combat except you lose part of your turn if you hit the pause button too late.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Sima Tuna wrote:Most Persona games I find it be quite overrated, especially compared to *adjusts hipster glasses* their SMT counterparts.
Honestly, yeah.

Persona 1 is unplayable garbage due to it having the single worst battle system in history. Yes, worse than Fellowship of the Ring on GBA, which I would honestly rather play than Persona 1, and I don't want to play Fellowship of the Ring on GBA.

Persona 2 is slightly more playable unplayable garbage due to it having a slightly better battle system but the single worst/highest encounter rate in anything ever.

Persona 3 exists or something.

Persona 4 is awesome and somehow one of my favourite games ever. I should replay Persona 4! Its super unexpected fighting games are also really great!

Persona Q exists, but does little to justify its existence.

Persona 5... yeah no.

So, basically, play Devil Survivor~
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Vanguard wrote:
Sima Tuna wrote:At its best, you can get a system of autopause going where the game automates easy fights while becoming nearly turn-based in boss encounters. Not too dissimilar from how games like SMT Nocturne will include a rush mode that auto-attacks and activates turbo speed. Gets rid of those obnoxious trash mobs.
This is why RTwP is trash. The sole upside is that you can let easy fights play out on their own... even though autocombat systems already exist for turn based games too. In a difficult fight, RTwP is just turn-based combat except you lose part of your turn if you hit the pause button too late.
If you're pausing manually, you are doing it wrong. For those harder fights, you have to set your autopause up. Shit goes south way too fast to manually pause on reaction.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Air Master Burst wrote:You just described like every Jarpig ever
essentially the same one I have about the mindless grinding that every Jarpig is full of
Maybe so. I wasn't making that comparison though (my jarpig experience is even more limited). Just because something has problems doesn't mean another thing is better or can't have similar problems. And I like criticizing things regardless of how much I like them; if anything, liking something means I'll criticize it more.
Vanguard wrote:In a difficult fight, RTwP is just turn-based combat except you lose part of your turn if you hit the pause button too late.
There's actually an IEEE mod that draws the round/action timers to the UI and demystifies this side of it. Makes manipulating timings much less frustrating. There's no excuse for more recent RTwP games not having something similar, it's such an obvious inclusion. But I expect 99% of developers who decide to use RTwP don't really give a shit about gameplay anyway.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Sima Tuna wrote:If you're pausing manually, you are doing it wrong. For those harder fights, you have to set your autopause up. Shit goes south way too fast to manually pause on reaction.
Well if the game autopauses whenever a character finishes an action, then it's effectively a turn based system. Just a clunky one where the duration and sequence of turns is harder to gauge and where you can cancel your actions partway in. And certainly that's a huge improvement on RTwP without autopause.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

Post by Sima Tuna »

Vanguard wrote:
Sima Tuna wrote:If you're pausing manually, you are doing it wrong. For those harder fights, you have to set your autopause up. Shit goes south way too fast to manually pause on reaction.
Well if the game autopauses whenever a character finishes an action, then it's effectively a turn based system. Just a clunky one where the duration and sequence of turns is harder to gauge and where you can cancel your actions partway in. And certainly that's a huge improvement on RTwP without autopause.
Set the autopause to go off at the end of the round. So now you know the duration of turns and can gauge them easily. It's around seven seconds in Baldur's Gate. Most special actions can only be performed one time per round. Autoattacks vary by the character's APR (attack per round) stat. Again, special actions cancel autoattacks. So you can pretty easily gauge that if an enemy is performing a special action (the most typical being to cast a spell) then they cannot do anything else for the next seven seconds. You can take advantage of this in numerous ways, such as having an archer with high APR target a caster. Each arrow that hits checks with a chance to cause them to fail their spell cast. Or you could use a staff/faster-firing spell like magic missile, which does not miss and always interrupts spellcasting.

Autopause can be used to stop the action in ways the player could never time themselves. I consider it essential. If you try to pause manually when you see a character take damage, the odds are good they'll already be dead.

One thing I will say is that many warpigs do a terrible job explaining how their systems work. Games used to come with thick-ass manuals you could read, but if you buy a modern version of these games, you won't get one. So there's a breakdown in communication between the developers and the player. They used to have this avenue to explain how the game worked (game manuals,) but that method isn't used anymore by publishers. Even if a digital manual were included, many players would probably ignore it because manuals nowadays are three pages long and full of legalese.

Modern warpigs usually address this with extensive menus full of glossaries and tutorials. But again, you have to seek this information out. It's not conveniently provided in an attractive booklet you could read while your game is installing/booting up/loading.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Vanguard wrote:
There are a great number of excellent Japanese action RPGs. FromSoft's Souls series, Ys Origin, Ys The Oath in Felghana, and Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link are pretty well respected around here, and I'm personally a big fan of Taito's Cadash as well. I don't believe WRPGs can realistically compete here.
Outside of niche masterpieces like Star Control 2, you're generally correct here (although Diablo's enduring popularity is certainly something to consider). However, if we also count immersive sims like Ultima Underworld and Deus Ex then I think they stack up pretty well.
Vanguard wrote: I feel like when these are into account, pure turn-based gameplay is another clear win for JRPGs, although I'm not very familiar with modern indie WRPGs so it's quite possible they've got some good stuff of their own.
There are some good ones out there, but honestly Jagged Alliance 2 is still the apex predator of the genre. I can't even really think of a proper Jarpig comparison.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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The etymology of gacha games is a bit of an interesting history. Most of the low to no-effort debris has a straight line to mobage games. Which are extremely cheaply made browser games that had a focus on collecting cards. Lots and lots of jpgs. Said cards were the usual fare, often from established franchises people were already invested in and depicted the usual stuff: cool monsters, muscle dudes, lewd women, cute stupid shit, etc.

The relevance is obviously highest when it comes to physical card games, some of the most exploitative gacha games to grace the earth. It all comes back to old sports and lady cards. And obviously games like Diablo, where the slot machine mechanics are core to the game addiction loop. (And the hyper sex and violence, of course.)

And that kind of gambling thing is a huge intrinsic part of mainstream RPGs. Dragon Quest has been compared to a pachinko machine where instead of coins, you insert the hours of your life to make numbers go up and explore new lands and monsters. I think that's an obvious reason why something narrative focused like Disco Elysium couldn't be mainstream.

If I was in charge of the Diablo franchise, the knowledge of this history would be a thing that'd weigh on my mind. At the very least, that a core motivation of the endless play loop doesn't have to be merely confined to equipment drops.

... god has that franchise just decided to rot on the vine. I used to make fun of Hellgate London holding its Horadric Cube hostage under a $5 monthly subscription fee ("pay a subscription for something you used to get for free!"), but man. Please buy the exact same game with the same few classes you've already played a million times as. It'll be dead and unsupported in a few years, just like all the other ones were.

... it really should be this expansive monster of a game with 50+ classes by now, but they just keep reskinning Diablo 2 from scratch constantly.......
Air Master Burst wrote:Since we're sticking to gameplay, I would recommend Tower of Elemental Evil as a somewhat less ancient entry. The story is barely there, and everything outside of combat is kind of a janky mess, but once combat starts it's a far better interpretation of tabletop D&D than Bioware ever managed (even if it is based on 3.5, which, gross).
I remember this being somewhat hyped up before release in Pool of Radiance crowds. I know I tried to give Planescape: Torment a shot, but the DnD battle system in real time very quickly made me lose interest.

The AOL Neverwinter Nights fans were quite hyped for Neverwinter Nights too... until they saw what it was going to be, and opinions split.

It's sad this isn't exclusive to this niche: Final Fantasy is all about realtime combat now, too. The profit motive says turn based games solely appeal to nerds.
Autopause can be used to stop the action in ways the player could never time themselves. I consider it essential. If you try to pause manually when you see a character take damage, the odds are good they'll already be dead.
Ah, I guess you can see why this doesn't appeal to some. Pausing destroys the point of having realtime combat in the first place.

These games should be built like an RTS crossed with a kind of Dungeon Master's system of laying out every character's button on the UI at a press. Playing these games should feel like playing a piano, euphoric.. not feeling existential dread at the cataclysmic weight getting a 6d6 fireball against 80% of the opposing army just right has.
I'm personally a big fan of Taito's Cadash as well
.... now I'm a bit ashamed of myself.

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Re: Games that are Overrated

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BryanM wrote: I remember this being somewhat hyped up before release in Pool of Radiance crowds. I know I tried to give Planescape: Torment a shot, but the DnD battle system in real time very quickly made me lose interest.
To be fair, that's kind of intentional because Planescape: Torment really isn't about combat.

Real time with pause works pretty well for Total War, but the scale of the battles there kind of necessitates it. I enjoy BG1 despite it, not because of it.

I also dislike NWN but I did enjoy the first Witcher quite a bit.

ETA: The true dirty secret behind the combat in D&D games kind of sucking is that tabletop D&D is a fairly shitty set of rules for a skirmish game. It's always blown me away how so many people use minis for RPGs; just play a real skirmish game like Mordheim or something if that's what you want.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Are there any DnD videogames that are fully turn based and have you rolling D20's and such?

I want the DnD ruleset in a game that simulates playing tabletop DND with some video game flourishes, not DND rules squished into a videogame with real time combat.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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To Far Away Times wrote:Are there any DnD videogames that are fully turn based and have you rolling D20's and such?

I want the DnD ruleset in a game that simulates playing tabletop DND with some video game flourishes, not DND rules squished into a videogame with real time combat.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

There's a roguelike called Incursion that uses a d20 ruleset. It's VERY unfinished, but what's there is pretty awesome.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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To Far Away Times wrote:Are there any DnD videogames that are fully turn based and have you rolling D20's and such?

I want the DnD ruleset in a game that simulates playing tabletop DND with some video game flourishes, not DND rules squished into a videogame with real time combat.
SSR's gold box games were a gold standard back in the day, translating pretty much the entire core of the 2nd edition rules was a great accomplishment back then. Pool of Radiance is held in high esteem by nerds for a reason. There've been a few projects that replicate the old timey engine for people to make their own adventures.

There were a few other turn based ones, already mentioned. I think "Pool of Radiance 2" might be another one?

Warriors of the Eternal Sun was a bit of an odd one. It has a mix of very janky first person realtime dungeon sections, with overworld turn based ones. Knights of the Chalice was obviously heavily inspired by its art direction.

If what you want is to play real DnD by yourself or with other human beings, your best choice is Tabletop Simulator. You can throw down your maps, slide your pawns, roll your dice, flip over the table... It's good stuff. And there are modules for all kinds of games, from Heroquest, Talisman, Kingdom Death: Monster, Arkham Horror, card games... basically everything.



The funniest thing is this guy asks for turn based DnD games, and gets a bunch of realtime and non-dnd games as recommendations. Cho literally had a video on this the other day.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

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Air Master Burst wrote:Outside of niche masterpieces like Star Control 2, you're generally correct here (although Diablo's enduring popularity is certainly something to consider). However, if we also count immersive sims like Ultima Underworld and Deus Ex then I think they stack up pretty well.
Star Control 2 is awesome. Hard to compare a game like that that does a bunch of things fairly well with something like Bloodborne or Ys Origin that does one thing extremely well, but it's good. Diablo is a slot machine glued onto a middling action game. Drop the loot system and it wouldn't be 1% as popular as it is. Deus Ex is a really iffy FPS and steal game that people like for its story and its (overall quite good) mission and environment designs. imo Deus Ex is a good game in spite of its weak mechanics. I haven't played UU.
Air Master Burst wrote:There are some good ones out there, but honestly Jagged Alliance 2 is still the apex predator of the genre. I can't even really think of a proper Jarpig comparison.
That's how I feel about Labyrinth of Touhou (and other quality doujins like Helen and Potato Flowers) vs all TB WRPGs. Would be interesting to hear the thoughts of someone who plays both.
Volteccer_Jack wrote:There's a roguelike called Incursion that uses a d20 ruleset. It's VERY unfinished, but what's there is pretty awesome.
Yeah, Incursion's cool. Not very balanced or fair, but that D&D 3.5 for you. Really impressive how much of the ruleset the dev was able to implement before his inevitable burnout. It's finished enough to win the game, and its infamous bugs aren't too bad in the latest version. Don't turn the difficulty or the game's length above the default or the game might start crashing towards the end as it tries to generate higher level enemies than it is capable of producing. Oh yeah, and be careful with the stone to mud spell. For whatever reason, when many magic spells interact with a tile containing mud that used to be stone, the game crashes. Also don't play as lawful or good unless you like the idea of asking every single one of the hundreds if not thousands of enemies you face to surrender before you finish them off.
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Re: Games that are Overrated

Post by Air Master Burst »

To Far Away Times wrote:Are there any DnD videogames that are fully turn based and have you rolling D20's and such?

I want the DnD ruleset in a game that simulates playing tabletop DND with some video game flourishes, not DND rules squished into a videogame with real time combat.
If you're cool with 3.5, Temple of Elemental Evil is probably what you're looking for.

If you're okay with early 90s games, the SSI games are pretty accurate to the combat of 2E. They did all the Gold Box games, as well as Eye of the Beholder, a couple Dark Sun games, a couple Ravenloft games, and Order of the Griffon for PCE (based on Basic D&D, though I don't remember which version). There's also Warriors of the Eternal Sun for Genesis, which I think also uses some variation of 2E.
BryanM wrote:If what you want is to play real DnD by yourself or with other human beings, your best choice is Tabletop Simulator. You can throw down your maps, slide your pawns, roll your dice, flip over the table... It's good stuff. And there are modules for all kinds of games, from Heroquest, Talisman, Kingdom Death: Monster, Arkham Horror, card games... basically everything.
I would recommend Roll20 over Tabletop Simulator, but I also don't do grid combat, so it's possible TTS does that better.
Vanguard wrote:That's how I feel about Labyrinth of Touhou (and other quality doujins like Helen and Potato Flowers) vs all TB WRPGs. Would be interesting to hear the thoughts of someone who plays both.
I'm game for this, I would love to play a Jarpig that's on the same level as Jagged Alliance! Which would you recommend as the deepest without having to deal with Xenoblade levels of system bloat? ETA: That's on PC, because I only have that or a creaky old launch PS4.

ETA2: I just looked up Labyrinth of Touhou and the level cap of 12,800 is giving me PTSD flashbacks to Disgaea. I prefer tactical challenges to mathematical ones, so I tend to prefer systems with lots of terrain and elevations and environmental effects over traditional Jarpig buff/debuff shenanigans.
King's Field IV is the best Souls game.
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Lander
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Re: Games that are Overrated

Post by Lander »

A level cap in the thousands is indicative of a crashed EXP economy. That's what happens when you just print more whack-a-mooks - great queues of hungry adventurers trading in wheelbarrows' worth of hoarded points for one meager stat allocation.

Out of ten, that's the way to do it.
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BryanM
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Re: Games that are Overrated

Post by BryanM »

For a pure tactics game, you wouldn't want levels or gold+loot drops at all. I guess there's Advance Wars and other warsim games..

... I do kind of like how this has just turned into yet another RPG thread. Maybe I'll make my blog post on Majin Tensei here, the sarpig thread, the jarpig, the warpig (cause warpig obviously means war sims, yeah?), the Megami Tensei thread, and the Doomsday Thread. All relevant to the topic!

(It would be pretty cool if a game had 1,000 levels worth of content without having to resort to procedural generation, though. Or Xianxia type power scaling instead of video game number scaling.)
Last edited by BryanM on Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
SavagePencil
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Re: Games that are Overrated

Post by SavagePencil »

Air Master Burst wrote:If you're okay with early 90s games, the SSI games are pretty accurate to the combat of 2E. They did all the Gold Box games, as well as Eye of the Beholder, a couple Dark Sun games, a couple Ravenloft games, and Order of the Griffon for PCE (based on Basic D&D, though I don't remember which version). There's also Warriors of the Eternal Sun for Genesis, which I think also uses some variation of 2E.
I feel like you did this deliberately to taunt us, but:

All of the GoldBox games are actually 1E AD&D, which has some very odd changes from 2E (my half-elf can cast spells WHILE wearing armor? Rangers get 2D8 hit points?!?).
Eye of the Beholder games are also 1E

EDIT: except the weird, broken Eye of the Beholder for GBA which uses 3E rules (sorta!) and GoldBox-style tactical combat.

Dark Sun and Ravenloft are 2E

Order of the Griffon and Warriors of the Eternal Sun are OD&D.
Last edited by SavagePencil on Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lander
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Re: Games that are Overrated

Post by Lander »

BryanM wrote:cause warpig obviously means war sims, yeah?
Until so qualified I'm assuming it means that PS1 game with Rik Mayall in it.
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