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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:41 pm 


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Air Master Burst wrote:
Weapons only have a few moves each, the i-frames on the dodge roll are incredibly generous, and there's no combo system to speak of; so the execution barrier is far lower than a character action or fighting game.


Sure, i'll give you that. but that wasn't your point.
You said the games are easy.
not 'the games are difficult compared to games with combos or shmups.' which are themselves, compared to the pantheon of all games, pretty fucking difficult.

Quote:
f you kill enemies on the way to replaying every boss then you'll usually outlevel them pretty quickly, especially early on.


So.. you're replaying the boss. because you died to the boss

... because the game is easy!?!? :lol:


Quote:
Most of the difficulty in Souls games is due to the classic inherent From jankiness; like bad camera angles on bosses, any of the shitty attempts at platforming, and whatever the fuck Bed of Chaos was supposed to be.


if you're here to just shit on From then I'll have to disengage.
I don't care about "muh camera"
sure, it's bad. nothing to discuss.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:56 pm 


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To be fair, the thread I originally said that in is the hardcore 3d action thread, and by those standards Souls games ARE pretty easy. The average NES game is harder than a Souls game, although I admit that was a different era.

If we confine our discussion to modern mainstream titles then sure, they're "hard" games. Certainly harder than your average Assassin's Creed or whatever the normies play these days.

ETA: I only shit on From out of love because they're one of my very favorite devs and I suffered through almost every one of their janky shit games like Enchanted Arms and Murakumo: Renegade Mech Pursuit back in the day. Even their best games have always had a bit of jank to them, it's part of the charm.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:01 am 


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Air Master Burst wrote:
To be fair, the thread I originally said that in is the hardcore 3d action thread, and by those standards Souls games ARE pretty easy.


Sure, but you didn't express this, i don't know what you really think so when you say "all souls games are pretty easy" and that's it; That's what I respond to.
I'm always gonna push back against something so reductive.
Quote:
ETA: I only shit on From out of love because they're one of my very favorite devs and I suffered through almost every one of their janky shit games like Enchanted Arms and Murakumo: Renegade Mech Pursuit back in the day. Even their best games have always had a bit of jank to them, it's part of the charm.


coulda fooled me.
Your "only difficulty comes from the camera" is a DarksydePhil tier take.
(in case you didn't know that's a streamer who, finding a bit of camera trouble, simply stops playing and sits there bitching about the game for literally 10 minutes at a time with no further inputs)
Blinge wrote:
So.. you're replaying the boss. because you died to the boss

... because the game is easy!?!?


no response to this then?

Let's take your "you can just level" point in good faith. I don't know how much levelling up is actually required in say, DS1, to be at the point where everything is trivialised. I'd say probably quite a lot? I've never done it tbh. There's diminishing returns on levels right quick, especially with how many souls it takes to level up. Imagine just grinding the undead burg repeatedly? Sounds awful tbh. I mean.. I could do it for the sake of experiment.

edit: In most games grinding feels like a tacit admittance of defeat. I don't know if that's my particular hangup. I felt like it when I grinded up to beat the endgame of DQ11 on 'hard mode'

Also replaying the boss each time assumes the player is able to always retrieve their pile of souls without dying again. This is not so.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:12 am 


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I'd describe the Souls and Souls-adjacents I've played - BB, DS1 and DS2 - as very substantial games, though simpler than the usual hardcore 3D action suspects, and with very generous healing/consumables - that can, OFC, be easily ignored, bridging the gap significantly. I quickly set a soft limit of five vials per boss, with BB, which I kept to for most of the game; an enjoyable difficulty level. I know when I'm being thrashed, limping away pounding vials. The bosses where I had to throw everything I had at 'em just to survive (from memory: Cosmo, Larry, and Chalice-only Headless) I considered "credit feeds," and settled up with on later loops/NGs.

I don't think I ran into anything as brutal as those three in DS1, though Arty, Manus and Kalameet all took a little figuring out with their high aggression and brutal hits, as expected of DLC.

DS2 I found a more onerous game in general, owing to its combining of weightier movement, trickier parry windows, and nastier crowds (and also locking away BB/DS1-comfy i-frames behind its ADP stat, while making END and Equip Load two separate ones). I resorted to summons for a few of the more irritating bosses - never the prestige duels like Fume Knight and Alonne, just the CTRL+V gangs like Ruin Sentinels and King's Pets. I liked DS2 for the most part, but I don't find its handling model or general world design nearly as enjoyable as either bookend's... so where I jumped back into them immediately, to brush up on the harder bosses and just enjoy the sights again, I couldn't be arsed with more than NG+1.

RE: levelling, I'm happy to die in two or three solid hits, but what I despise is feeling weak. In a fresh file, I know if I go straight to BB's DLC @ lv60 with +6 weapons (this after mowing straight through Central, Old Yharny, Hemwick, and Cathedral Ward's Workshop, Lower and Cathedral districts, with all bosses and optional nooks cleared out), I'm going to be hitting enemies with five, ten, or more V-ATKs, which looks and feels absolutely dispiriting. So I know to either wait until I've reached Willem (lv80 after whacking everything in Forbidden Woods), or do some of the story Chalices (as Gehrman suggests) for a smoother, less Euroshumpy ride.

For all I know, the random mainstreamers who talk about these games like they're AC brawler/STG skullcrushers are playing by harder rules than me - though I genuinely doubt it, given the way they describe their downfalls. One thing to be said for these games: they kill flailers fast, and casuals love nothing more than to flail. :lol:

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These are quality games that kill bad players. Bad players - inattentive, easily-frustrated, and unaccustomed to hard self-evaluation - are the overwhelming majority of the audience. Hence "PREPARE 2 DIE" / "EASY MODE PLS" hysteria with each new title. It's nothing for aficionados to worry about. :cool:
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Last edited by BIL on Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:17 am 


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The hardest bosses in DS1 are probably Capra Demon and Bed of Chaos. The reason they are hard is because of jank game design. I never see anyone claiming these fights are particularly fun.

The fights people DO think are fun are usually stuff like O+S or Artorias, who are fought in large open arenas where the jank is minimized. But those fights aren't particularly difficult, especially if you summon help.

I realize I haven't even brought up the fact that you can summon NPCs and/or other players to help with just about every fight in every Souls game, but that definitely makes them easy. I've only ever played solo, and I never use NPCs for my first run at bosses, because I like a bit of challenge and that's the best way to ensure I get one. I often hear stories about "i summoned this crazy guy who solo'd the boss for me in 2 shots at level 1!" There's literally a mechanic to have better players carry you! It's almost impossible to get stuck for long in a Souls game without intentionally avoiding certain mechanics.

Which goes back to my whole bit about self-imposed difficulty, because if you use all the stuff Souls games have baked in, they're not hard games.

ETA:
Blinge wrote:
So.. you're replaying the boss. because you died to the boss

... because the game is easy!?!? :lol:


So you consider any boss that isn't beaten upon the first encounter to be hard? And you call me reductive.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:38 am 


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Capra surprised me, and not in a good way. "Let's have the goatman bum-rush you before the mist clears" :lol: Totally disposable otherwise (as to be expected with the boss itself being a random midgame heavy and a couple of zako). "As soon as you enter the boss area, book it to the top of the stairs" covers it. Bed of Chaos I don't even consider a boss, it's a trainwreck in which the traincars are full of raw sewage.

For a slightly less egregious version of these two, I'd cite Ceaseless Discharge (sans the automatic win for running away). Even then though, once you get the timing down for his flame blasts, there isn't much going on.

In BB, I remember summoning Alfred for Starvin' Marvin, on my absolute first run, and knowing afterwards that I'd had absolutely no idea what just happened (even with a relatively simple boss like Marv), so I avoided them from there and in DS1. I do like the aesthetic of a three-a-side battle royale VS the Shadows (bringing in Henny and that bitch Madaras Younger). Pretty rad pummelling the shit out of one while your bros go to work in the background. Actually makes the last survivor's SNAKEMAGEDDON Hyper SDM logical, too! Just as enjoyable solo though.

And seeing minor characters like Defector Antal, Damian of Mensis, and Valtyr in his Beast Eater persona is neat from lore perspective, though it's just as easy to read up on that stuff.

Apparently BB's summons are more trouble than they're worth in higher loops, since they continue using lower-level gear, they still give the boss an HP buff despite that, and they screw up speedkills/low-level kills by causing the boss to randomly switch targets. No idea if that's the case for DS1/DS2, I actually went through the former missing 90% of summon chances since I was Hollow most of the time. When Loop 2 came around, and I wasn't dying nearly as often, I thought all the NPC invaders (Yellow King, Butcher Waifu etc) were bonus content, haha.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:25 pm 


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Lol capra.
okay Airmaster so you have the slightest amount of challenge and that’s “jank.”
So you can conveniently dismiss it and not factor it into your “games be easy” claim.
Got it.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:30 pm 


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Guess the boss I've died to the most in this Thief DS3 run so far challenge (impossible). Currently through Pontiff, for reference. Most bosses have been 0 deaths.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:25 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
Lol capra.
okay Airmaster so you have the slightest amount of challenge and that’s “jank.”
So you can conveniently dismiss it and not factor it into your “games be easy” claim.
Got it.


Capra got me twice on my first run. I think the only other bosses to kill me were the Bed and the Gargoyles once when the second one surprised me before I finished the first one off.

Hardest in the game doesn't mean they're that hard.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:54 pm 


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Hey assmaster, I never said they were.

Capra is clearly not the hardest boss in the game.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:09 pm 


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Air Master Burst wrote:
Blinge wrote:
So.. you're replaying the boss. because you died to the boss

... because the game is easy!?!? :lol:


So you consider any boss that isn't beaten upon the first encounter to be hard? And you call me reductive.


Ah you didn't say your model was based retrying the boss just ONCE. and you were talking about 'grinding' so I assumed your model was about someone replaying a boss multiple times and cashing in all the souls afterwards.

Quote:
Let's take your "you can just level" point in good faith. I don't know how much levelling up is actually required in say, DS1, to be at the point where everything is trivialised. I'd say probably quite a lot? I've never done it tbh. There's diminishing returns on levels right quick, especially with how many souls it takes to level up. Imagine just grinding the undead burg repeatedly? Sounds awful tbh. I mean.. I could do it for the sake of experiment.

edit: In most games grinding feels like a tacit admittance of defeat. I don't know if that's my particular hangup. I felt like it when I grinded up to beat the endgame of DQ11 on 'hard mode'

Also replaying the boss each time assumes the player is able to always retrieve their pile of souls without dying again. This is not so.


No response to this either, I see.
I'm not sure if you wanna just sling shit or have a discussion, i'm good for both tbh.

Yeah summoning players IS the game's easy mode.

assmaster wrote:
It's almost impossible to get stuck for long in a Souls game without intentionally avoiding certain mechanics.

You've got it ass backwards, assmaster. Intentionally spending humanity to go human, then finding a player to summon (assuming you're playing online, too. which isn't everyone, far from it), is going out of your way to seek a mechanic. If you have to seek something out, then not using it does not count as avoiding.
Enough people get plenty stuck without summons.

Hell, I literally watched a friend spend all of his humanity summoning Solaire for O&S.. and dying in the fight. He had no more left and couldn't summon. :mrgreen:

Yes, From included several player-led ways to modulate the game's difficulty, like an organic easy mode. That doesn't mean I use them all and say "ffs. shit's too easy. how boring."

what was that quote.. "players will optimize all the fun out of a game if you let them."
hmm.

Not diverting the normal course of play by level grinding or summoning NPC/human help is not a "Self imposed challenge."
Yes, i'm claiming there's a normal course of play. Perhaps this is a bold claim.

None of the DMC games are hard [or insert whatever shitty action game you enjoy], because i can just play on easy mode. i would be *intentionally* not using the game's mechanics by playing on normal. why would i do that? i can just play on easy, using all the tools at my disposal.

Birru wrote:
These are quality games that kill bad players. Bad players - inattentive, easily-frustrated, and unaccustomed to hard self-evaluation - are the overwhelming majority of the audience


Pretty much nothing else needs to be said.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 7:12 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
Hey assmaster, I never said they were.

Capra is clearly not the hardest boss in the game.


I don't understand why you're taking this personally, but if you're just gonna hurl abuse we're done here.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:07 am 


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Depends on perspective mate, assmaster could be a compliment :wink:

Edit:
Let me hammer the point home as my adversary has quit the field.

Ketsui is an easy game because if I make use of all of the game's mechanics, I can finish it easily.
I can simply continue.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:59 am 


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Blinge wrote:
Depends on perspective mate, assmaster could be a compliment :wink:


Look, I just want to be able to have a nice talk about video games without someone insulting me like a 90s playground bully. I'm not your opponent and this isn't a field of battle. If you ever decide you wanna try again without acting like a jerk I'd be willing to engage.

Unlike most things in life, being polite is free.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 1:23 pm 


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Air Master Burst wrote:
If you ever decide you wanna try again without acting like a jerk I'd be willing to engage.


I could but I've made my points and backed them up, I feel no need to do so again.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:57 pm 


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Air Master Burst wrote:
There's literally a mechanic to have better players carry you! It's almost impossible to get stuck for long in a Souls game without intentionally avoiding certain mechanics.

Holy shit, all this time I thought Ketsui and Metal Slug were difficult games, turns out all I had to do was use 2P mode and let a better player carry me. SMH my head, arcade games are easy baby shit. :roll:

Quote:
So you consider any boss that isn't beaten upon the first encounter to be hard? And you call me reductive.

"The boss is easy after you die to it a bunch" is a dumb argument. I think even you know that since you've already backpedalled to "I never died even once because of my 1337 pro skills, except to that one boss BECAUSE JANK", which TBH isn't a very believable claim coming on the heels of the previous argument. If you really thought the game was easy regardless of grinding then you obviously shouldn't have brought up grinding at all.

Quote:
DS2 is probably objectively the hardest just because they make you work a bit more to grind souls.

Patently false statement. DS2 is easier and faster to grind souls in than any of the other games. So much so that grinding was literally the speedrun route, until people figured out how to skip the 1 million soul memory door. Getting a million souls by grinding is exponentially faster than doing it by playing the game normally. DS2 is the easiest Souls game, "objectively", because Lifegems render the player invulnerable to anything that isn't an instant kill from full life, and they are so cheap to buy that even if you use them constantly you can still easily have 99 of them on you at the start of every area for most of the game. I'm assuming you didn't know this stuff because anytime anyone says anything that can be construed as positive about DS2, I assume they are misinformed, and am usually right. :P
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 7:07 am 


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I found DS2 slightly harder overall (though never as hard in isolation as BB's most deliberate malevolence, the cursed/rotted/gonorrhea Chalices), simply because 1) DS2's handling is innately a bit shite, and 2) it locks DS1-comfy roll n' chug behind its ADP stat, which is why I dump all XP there until they're DS1 spec, without a care in the world for my other stats. :cool:

Because I can deal with low HP and moderate attack power just fine, but ho ho hoooly fuck - crummy, laggy basic movement can choke to death on my cock m8. I want a BATTLE AT THE EDGE OF LIMITS, unworried my ponderous poncy cunt of a PC is going to tumble off when I order his fat ass to swerve clear of a would-be killshot!

(haha, got the rare "DEF! DEF 2 THA MINISTAH!" mob yell @9secs, and an "Iona will be the judge" right before the start)

As if OG Dracula let you pivot anything less than frame-instantly. Oh man, this reminds like a motherfucker. A journo (almost) discovers a clue! :shock: "You are the experience points," indeed. The development of the player, not merely his avatar; that's the cornerstone of any substantial game.

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Rondo of Blood is so thick with commitment actions that it literally places a warm-up on turning around! Think about that: it takes almost a full second to turn around in Rondo of Blood. This is a side-scrolling platform action game from 1993, and its designers were thinking that hard about risk-reward.


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My mans got so excited with that POPPIN FRESH OLEH-OLEH-OLD SKOOOL namedrop, he confused nigh-bulletproof Rondo with busted-ass Alisia Dragoon and Raf World! Image

Still, points for insight however limited. Some > None Image

Speaking of dubiously tough DS1 bosses, I forgot all about Red Hellkite, or Red Drake, or whatever his official name is. A cinch to damage-race him in NG, as the Ring of Steel Protection hints.

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Of the many legends surrounding the Knight King Rendal, one of the more well-known speaks of his standing down a giant drake and slashing it to pieces.


On NG+1 and higher, the bugger has too much HP and will simply VTOL you to a crisp. Everyone knows about sniping him from the walkway below the bridge, but that's LAMER THAN A MUHFUCKA. I was wishing they'd gone with something like MGS2's awesome Harrier fight; a rousing game of artillery-dodging musical chairs, with precision counterattacks mixed in as you're able to. You can kinda do this, as-is, using the bridge's terrain features - the recesses and lower storey are refuge from straight blasts and VTOLs, respectively. And you can certainly fight it out toe-to-toe VS his bludgeoning attacks, while simply side-switching if he goes for a straight blast - but this means leaving said refuges and exposing yourself to a random 1HKO VTOL.

I thought I'd discovered a decent strategy that brought him into melee range, while leaving me an emergency refuge via the portcullis. Alas, it seemingly buttfucks his AI. :lol:

A Voyage Of Regretful Discovery :shock: (found while clearing out old clips, 1000hrs in MSpaint :oops:)

Poor bugger. I like how Kalameet is very much his redemption arc, with similarly bitch-slapping tail action, and a near-identical VTOL that can now actually be outran and/or shielded with quick player reaction, thanks to the valley arena. Plus lots of extra goodies like his CALAMITEH BEAM and stompeh feets. You can even cheese him with arrers, too, if you're a shameless weenie! :o
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:41 pm 


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Trying very hard to not get pulled into this.

Anyway DS3 Thief run is done. All bosses, clocked in at just over 25 hours. Still asking blinge to guess what boss I died to the most. It's hilarious and embarrassing. Most of the toughest bosses ended up being one death. Nameless King, Gael, Midir were all one death. Friede was I wanna say two deaths. Knife is mostly just very good. Normal enemies that are problematic for it can just be avoided. I did buy another that I also max leveled and bleed infused with a gem. Kept the regular +10 for item infusions. One issue is the deserter armor isn't very good so I did put quite a bit into vit for the extra defense boost. Also got me to full rolling pretty quick.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:47 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:51 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
The greatwood


God damn, spot on. Like 6+ deaths lmao.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:30 pm 


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https://youtu.be/bsmk2VMxS4Q?t=292
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:59 pm 


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Volteccer_Jack wrote:
Holy shit, all this time I thought Ketsui and Metal Slug were difficult games, turns out all I had to do was use 2P mode and let a better player carry me. SMH my head, arcade games are easy baby shit. :roll:


Sure, if you can find one. But the arcade cabs don't come with a feature that finds one, teleports them to you, and pays for their credit. Multiplayer in Souls games is the intended experience.

Quote:
"The boss is easy after you die to it a bunch" is a dumb argument. I think even you know that since you've already backpedalled to "I never died even once because of my 1337 pro skills, except to that one boss BECAUSE JANK", which TBH isn't a very believable claim coming on the heels of the previous argument. If you really thought the game was easy regardless of grinding then you obviously shouldn't have brought up grinding at all.


Well, my first DS1 run came on the heels of a year of playing Demon's Souls pretty obsessively, so it's not like that's gonna be a standard experience. I personally found it easy without grinding because of my prior experience, but a newer player would still find it easier to maintain forward momentum and harder to get stuck on a boss compared to, like, Ninja Gaiden Black, or any other actual difficult game.

Quote:
DS2 is probably objectively the hardest just because they make you work a bit more to grind souls.

Patently false statement. DS2 is easier and faster to grind souls in than any of the other games. So much so that grinding was literally the speedrun route, until people figured out how to skip the 1 million soul memory door. Getting a million souls by grinding is exponentially faster than doing it by playing the game normally. DS2 is the easiest Souls game, "objectively", because Lifegems render the player invulnerable to anything that isn't an instant kill from full life, and they are so cheap to buy that even if you use them constantly you can still easily have 99 of them on you at the start of every area for most of the game. I'm assuming you didn't know this stuff because anytime anyone says anything that can be construed as positive about DS2, I assume they are misinformed, and am usually right. :P[/quote]

This is a fair point, I've never used any of that stuff because I enjoy the challenge. I was thinking more of average gamers playing through it just to beat it and not speedrunners, and because they make you burn items to keep grinding the same area I figured that's probably slightly more of an impediment, but I've never been in that situation myself so I'm not sure.

Dark Souls 2 isn't a masterpiece but it's pretty good. I'd certainly play it again over DS3.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:43 pm 


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Air Master Burst wrote:
But the arcade cabs don't come with a feature that finds one, teleports them to you, and pays for their credit. Multiplayer in Souls games is the intended experience.


The goalposts are very mobile these days.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:57 am 



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Volteccer_Jack wrote:
DS2 is the easiest Souls game, "objectively", because Lifegems render the player invulnerable to anything that isn't an instant kill from full life, and they are so cheap to buy that even if you use them constantly you can still easily have 99 of them on you at the start of every area for most of the game.

This is certainly true.

What I typically do in any DS2 run is to use the equivalent of a boss' soul's worth of souls to buy up the hag's stock of lifegems. The first big pile of lifegems is more than enough to carry through a large chunk of the game, and then I do it again next time I'm low and passing by some worthless boss refight that gives easy souls.

Another thing that makes dark souls 2 very easy is the way the game has tweaked many of the systems. You do have to learn the timing on last-second dodging, but after that, there's little that can stand in your way. Between Drang Shield, lifegems and dodge rolls, you'll trounce most of the threats with ease.

Of course, you don't HAVE to use any of these systems. And I often don't, although I still buy the lifegems because there's no reason not to. I just limit their use. There are a lot of annoying forced hp loss segments in DS2 that the lifegems help mitigate.

I say this as someone who still kinda loves DS2. It's jank and can feel uninspired or downright lazy at times, but when firing on all cylinders, it has some of the most build variety of any souls game imo. I find DS2 much more replayable for me personally than many other Souls games. I mean, Bloodborne is a masterpiece of course, DeS is my favorite Souls and DS1 is a classic. But DS1 and BB kind of funnel you through the same areas on a fresh game, and DeS... I haven't made the jump to PS5, and my poor PS3 version had its online gutted by Soyny... :cry: No more will I get Scraping Spear'd by noob killers in 2-1. :cry: :cry: :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:11 pm 


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Dark Souls II is the easiest Souls game, objectively, because nearly all of the bosses are slow, lumbering slogs of enemies that'd rather sleep on the job as opposed to doing their best to murder you.

Some of those DLC bosses are pretty good though.

Still love the game regardless. It may have the most interesting world/exploration out of the whole series as well as the most replay value, with its ridiculous SL1 run potential, along with normal runs played via the Champion's Covenant.

*edit: In hindsight, I'd say Demon's Souls is the easiest, but of the three Dark Souls games, II is the easiest IMO.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:25 pm 


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If we're just comparing solz i'd genuinely say that DS1 is the easiest.
You can avoid most of most bosses attacks by walking up against their nutsack.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:51 pm 



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Austin wrote:
Dark Souls II is the easiest Souls game, objectively, because nearly all of the bosses are slow, lumbering slogs of enemies that'd rather sleep on the job as opposed to doing their best to murder you.

Some of those DLC bosses are pretty good though.

Still love the game regardless. It may have the most interesting world/exploration out of the whole series as well as the most replay value, with its ridiculous SL1 run potential, along with normal runs played via the Champion's Covenant.

*edit: In hindsight, I'd say Demon's Souls is the easiest, but of the three Dark Souls games, II is the easiest IMO.

The DLC for Dark Souls II was fantastic. The best-designed levels and bosses in all of DS2, for the most part. The Sunken City was my favorite DLC pack.

I just really like the balance tweaks DS2 made to the formula, most of which DS3 walked back in an attempt to be more like Bloodborne. DS2 really took a look at the way that shields broke the balance of DS1. You had way too many shields in DS1 that were just broken. They weighed 3 pounds, had 100% damage resistance, reasonably high poise (especially with upgrades) and 70%+ resistance towards another damage type, such as Magic or Fire. This created a meta where every player used the same 4 shields in every run and they used all of them interchangeably on the same builds. Unless you were doing a challenge run without shields, you used them because they were too good not to use. Even builds that didn't use shields would have a Grass Crest on their back.

DS2 did a lot of poking and prodding to that system. Certain builds couldn't equip the Drang shield or any 100% damage resistance shield. If they did, it was usually a result of substandard point placement for that build. And starting character choices were more meaningful due to less even stat distribution and more give-and-take with equipment starts. Most characters in DS2 don't start with a shield and most early shields aren't 100% damage resist.

But unlike DS3, shields are still powerful and useful in DS2. DS3 brought in a lot more enemies who attack quickly with moves that will drain all of your stamina on a shield block, guard crushing you instantly into a touch of death combo. DS3 pushes the player into a certain play style, based heavily around dodge rolling. Again, dodge rolls are very powerful in DS2, and necessary for some fights (Pursuer, Velstadt), but the player is given freedom outside of those few situations.

Then there's the scaling damage system in DS2, which I love. It's just great. Raw damage, strength-scaling damage, dex-scaling damage, quality-scaling damage, magic damage, lightning (faith) damage, hex damage and pyro damage. Every one of these damage types has its own associated build, as well as numerous ways to blend multiple damage types into a hybrid build. Want to be a dex/faith build? No problemo. Quality/Pyro? Sure. Strength? Why not. And aside from Raw, all of these scale off your stats. Pyro isn't like Pyro from DS1, which dealt essentially raw damage plus bonus from upgrades (and could be stapled to EVERY build for free.) In DS2, you can make anything work, but you do have to build it because every damage source scales. It's awesome. And then you have the variations even within the damage types. Like, Fire scales off Int IIRC, but there's also Magic damage that scales off Int. So there are these subtypes that use the same scaling stats. Your hex build is also going to be decent at using sorcery. But the more you try to staple onto any build, the more you have to pump points into stats other than damage, to ensure you have enough SLOTS to carry all your magic. Again, classes start more specialized than DS1, so you're not going to get many points in ANY stat for free. You won't get a bunch of free spell slots to tack on pyro or healing. If you want to build, you have to commit to the build. You can make awesome hybrid characters, but you always sacrifice. Usually on damage.

Those alternate weapon damage types, like Fire and Magic that both scale off Int, those eat into your funds by pulling your cash and upgrade materials into split weapon upgrade paths. You can equip 3 weapons in DS2 and you will probably have at least 3 upgraded weapons in DS2. It's very convenient to have multiple damage types which scale off your stats. Again though, this comes at the cost of your soul bank. A pure strength build with no frills can pump all its points into damage and 1 main weapon.

This damage system is the main reason why I replay DS2 more than the other games. In DS1, pyro is free to every class, so you take pyro on any build that isn't a magic user. Same for shields, just slap the crest shields on every build. Bloodborne has sort of a similar issue. Many of the BB weapons have low use requirements and are kind of "too good" not to use, like the Saw Spear. Sure, you can theoretically play however you want, and BB is easy enough you can use the weapons you like. But especially in the early game of BB, all my runs invariably turn into "Saw Spear until my stats are high enough to switch/Eldtrich enemies show up."

Compared to other souls games, every DS2 run feels pretty unique for me. There are so many weapons in DS2 and I can always come up with a new way to play it.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:05 pm 


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Sima Tuna wrote:
In DS1, pyro is free to every class, so you take pyro on any build that isn't a magic user.


n..no, i don't?
I understand that in theory you can use Pyro with every build. But that just wastes souls you could be using elsewhere.
You're still deciding where to put those souls.

Quote:
Bloodborne has sort of a similar issue. Many of the BB weapons have low use requirements and are kind of "too good" not to use, like the Saw Spear.


While your post was interesting i wish you guys would stop just assuming people play the same way youze do. Or making some objective claim about the design forcing players' decisions.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:35 am 



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Blinge wrote:
Sima Tuna wrote:
In DS1, pyro is free to every class, so you take pyro on any build that isn't a magic user.


n..no, i don't?
I understand that in theory you can use Pyro with every build. But that just wastes souls you could be using elsewhere.
You're still deciding where to put those souls.

Quote:
Bloodborne has sort of a similar issue. Many of the BB weapons have low use requirements and are kind of "too good" not to use, like the Saw Spear.


While your post was interesting i wish you guys would stop just assuming people play the same way youze do. Or making some objective claim about the design forcing players' decisions.

I said explicitly you can play whatever way you want. What I'm describing is a general meta. You don't HAVE to use the Saw Spear. But there's no reason not to when it's simply superior to almost every weapon available in the first third of the game. It's fast as fuck, can be set on fire and has natural bonuses against early game enemies. It even has a stab move to take on the few eldritch in early game.

In a similar way, you aren't forced to use Crest shields or take Pyro as an offhand in DS1. But there's literally zero reason not to. The souls cost argument doesn't fly. You don't need to upgrade the Crest shields even one time for them to be OP as fuck. You can just keep them in your inventory and swap on bosses or enemies that spam certain elemental attacks. Or slap the grass crest on your back for meaningful free stamina regen. Pyro benefits from upgrading the glove but it doesn't require it. If you choose a starting class with a slot and then pay the equivalent of 2 or so early game levels (basically nothing in souls cost) for another slot, you can equip Power Within (whatever that spell is called) and some other OP Pyro skills and just buff yourself... Basically for free.

There's a lot of shit like that in DS1, where you invest almost nothing or actually nothing and get free add-ons to any build. Demon's Souls had some too, to be fair. The preupgraded +1 weapons in DeS are largely free to add to any build. Their requirements are very low and upgrading a normal weapon to +1 in an elemental line in DeS is quite an ordeal normally. The Magic Falchion, Fire Longsword and Holy Mace in particular are just too good not to take unless you're challenging yourself. Free mp regen on the falchion, free hp regen on the mace and very high damage with a good moveset on the longsword.

DS2 rebalances a lot of that shit. Like, there's a fire longsword in DS2, but it's quite a bit weaker if you aren't building (int) towards it. The lightning sword doesn't regen hp anymore and scales off faith. All the bonuses are less "free" than the equivalents in DeS or DS1, and upgrading blank weapons to special forms isn't nearly as obnoxious in DS2 as in DeS.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:10 am 


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Putting points in Pyro doesn't penalize your leveling towards higher stats, so yeah it's free in that regard.

I really don't like just playing game likes this to play optimally. Dark Souls pretty much asks you to play the way you want, and I think the biggest reason "not to use pyro", or any other potentially OP build is that it requires actually caring about those. Hell, in a game like Dark Souls where a massive part of its appeal is how obscure it is, not knowing about them is a massive factor. I bet a vast majority of people who has played Dark Souls and didn't pick pyromancer from the start, weren't even aware that they could just use pyromancy for free, while focusing on melee builds. And even if they did, it would add complexity to the game, that might not be appealing for a first playthrough.

You can probably cheese a lot of things in DS1, but it really requires knowing what you're doing, and even when it just comes to basic combat, DS is already a game where "knowing" really is half the battle. By comparison Elden Ring is much much easier to cheese on purpose, and in that one, if you know what you're doing, you can just get a "push button to win boss fight" strat essentially.


I think it's also hard to really argue some weapons being notably better than others in Bloodborne. I think some are, but then others might be more interesting to play with for other reasons. And at the end of the day it also comes down to knowing how to use it well. Even if you find a weapon that's "better" than the one you're using, you'll still be at a disadvantage swapping over, because you're used to the moveset of a different weapon.


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