S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
velo
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by velo »

Final Vendetta is coming soon, kinda resembles a Neo Geo game imo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LinXOxaHe-w
Sima Tuna wrote: Most of the 1ccs I've seen of Captain Commander were of Baby. I can't remember if I've even seen one of Mummy/Mack the Knife. He is my favorite character to play though. Anyway, Baby seems the best to me for a 1cc, since his low speed can be compensated by dashing and you can do invincible jumping throw spam to deal damage and position yourself.

In general, with beat em ups that have dashing, I have found that the slowest characters are often the strongest. Because the presence of a dash or dashing move almost completely negates their speed disadvantage. SoR 2 Max is a great example. He's supposed to be "slow" but moves faster than every other character except Skate, thanks to his slide. :lol:

Shitrom is a huge asshole. No idea how to beat him consistently but I thought I'd just add that. I've seen strats for Shitrom but I have no idea what you do with Double Shitrom.
I have noticed that most 1ccs seem to be with Baby. He deals the most damage and must be best for speed runners. He can pretty much kill crowds the moment they spawn by infiniting them. I can clear the game with Mummy but I'm doing well to reach the halfway mark with Baby, he's the hardest character by far for me. Check the double Shitrom fight in a Mummy 1cc for a good example of why he's the best for filthy casuals like me, he can just stand in the corner and jab and do nothing. Baby actually makes you play the game...
Licorice wrote:
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Sir Ilpalazzo wrote:The specific attack is just this - once you have the turbo jets, do a neutral jump (not a directional one), then attack while in the air. This launches a bombardment in four directions, during which you can move around freely and continually attack. Almost no enemies can reach you while you're high in the air, and it's trivially easy to maneuver yourself to land in a safe position while using the bombardment attack to keep enemies at bay, then repeat the process. It certainly isn't a fast way to play the game, though.
Thank you for this, I'd heard Armored Warriors is brutally hard and have kind of shied away from playing it a whole lot, it's nice to know if I want to make life easier on myself there's a fairly potent exploit available I can choose to use (or not use).
I'm a complete noob at the genre, but I've played a fair chunk of Amored Warriors. I can get to the rail level on one credit. Anyway I've found that while the turbo jets are safe, they don't do a lot of damage, so even though there's lots of room for error, the fact that you have to repeat the action so many times increases the chances you'll mess up and get hit anyway. It's a tediously safe way to play the game that at least requires endurance, which is a skill of its own. In my experience, I've found it more worthwhile to focus on other tactics as well.
Anybody have any idea why the western version of Armored Warriors isn't in Capcom Arcade Stadium? It's one of the few games with only a Japanese rom. I thought it might be a censorship thing (of what, I don't know).
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Gamer707b »

In general, with beat em ups that have dashing, I have found that the slowest characters are often the strongest. Because the presence of a dash or dashing move almost completely negates their speed disadvantage. SoR 2 Max is a great example. He's supposed to be "slow" but moves faster than every other character except Skate, thanks to his slide. :lol:

Shitrom is a huge asshole. No idea how to beat him consistently but I thought I'd just add that. I've seen strats for Shitrom but I have no idea what you do with Double Shitrom.[/quote]
I have noticed that most 1ccs seem to be with Baby. He deals the most damage and must be best for speed runners. He can pretty much kill crowds the moment they spawn by infiniting them. I can clear the game with Mummy but I'm doing well to reach the halfway mark with Baby, he's the hardest character by far for me. Check the double Shitrom fight in a Mummy 1cc for a good example of why he's the best for filthy casuals like me, he can just stand in the corner and jab and do nothing. Baby actually makes you play the game...
Licorice wrote:
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Sir Ilpalazzo wrote:The specific attack is just this - once you have the turbo jets, do a neutral jump (not a directional one), then attack while in the air. This launches a bombardment in four directions, during which you can move around freely and continually attack. Almost no enemies can reach you while you're high in the air, and it's trivially easy to maneuver yourself to land in a safe position while using the bombardment attack to keep enemies at bay, then repeat the process. It certainly isn't a fast way to play the game, though.
Thank you for this, I'd heard Armored Warriors is brutally hard and have kind of shied away from playing it a whole lot, it's nice to know if I want to make life easier on myself there's a fairly potent exploit available I can choose to use (or not use).
I'm a complete noob at the genre, but I've played a fair chunk of Amored Warriors. I can get to the rail level on one credit. Anyway I've found that while the turbo jets are safe, they don't do a lot of damage, so even though there's lots of room for error, the fact that you have to repeat the action so many times increases the chances you'll mess up and get hit anyway. It's a tediously safe way to play the game that at least requires endurance, which is a skill of its own. In my experience, I've found it more worthwhile to focus on other tactics as well.
Anybody have any idea why the western version of Armored Warriors isn't in Capcom Arcade Stadium? It's one of the few games with only a Japanese rom. I thought it might be a censorship thing (of what, I don't know).[/quote]

Can't answer your question on Armored Warriors on Arcade Stadium, but I believe we got the North American version on the Capcom Belt Action collection.
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Sir Ilpalazzo
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Finally cleared Final Fight earlier. Legendary game. I fell in love with it years back but hadn't given it any serious 1CC attempts until my arcade brawler binge this year.

I think it's the best game in the genre. All of its elements are brilliantly-judged - every move in your toolkit is distinctly useful and important, Cody and Haggar are brilliantly distinct characters who approach the game in ways that are both wholly separate yet thoroughly interesting (Guy is fine but feels like the decidedly least interesting character). The enemies, too, are excellent, with all of them serving specific and clear-cut purposes and niches, but without ever being too individually overbearing to deal with - and the level design does a great job of mixing up the enemy types you fight throughout the game, so it never feels like the game is just spinning its wheels or repeating enemy types.

Final Fight feels to me like the only brawler that matches the tremendously elegant design found in The Ninja Warriors Again (which isn't exactly in the same field given its fully 2D nature, but it's comparable enough both in mechanics and in quality), which is about the highest praise I can give a game. If I had any one criticism of the game, it's that that attention to detail was certainly turned against the player in a few spots, too; it's hard to imagine things like the lack of wakeup invincibility or enemies' propensity for attacking you out of a throw weren't considered by the developers and left in as a way to force ailing credits to an end.

(I'll also say one of my favorite considerations in the game is the way that you do your greatest damage after grabbing an enemy - it adds a distinction between standard attacks - used as crowd control - and more powerful grab attacks, meant as punishment for enemies you've either briefly isolated from the crowd or as a way to ruthlessly stomp down the last survivor of a group of enemies. A lot of later brawlers, including some of Capcom's - like Warriors of Fate, sporting a similarly trimmed-down moveset - don't quite replicate this, but that you can really tear enemies apart once you get your hands on them adds a lot to FF's particular character and cadence; it almost feels like an equivalent to Technos's ruthlessly cathartic attacks against downed enemies or grapples that require enemies to be weakened first.)

I cleared with Cody, but I do want to go through with Haggar (probably the more fun and more difficult of the two) sometime.

-

I cleared Violent Storm a bit ago also. Very good game - some of the very best presentation in the genre, which is what you'd expect from Konami (and especially from their last arcade brawler). The player movesets and enemies are probably, on the whole, the very best of any of Konami's arcade games, which makes me initially lean towards calling this the best of their brawlers (above the excellent Crime Fighters 2 and Metamorphic Force) - but damn, this game's bosses are among the worst Konami ever put out, which is really saying something. The majority of them seem basically impossible to fight with conventional methods; they're so tremendously overbearing that your only real recourse is to rely on annoying cheese strategies.

Despite that, it's still a pretty excellent game overall. None of the boss cheese strategies are so difficult to pull off that you come away feeling like the entire run depends on some pixel- or frame-perfect trap, so once you have them down, it's a reasonable enough clear - but it's still a bit of a shame.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Randorama »

Very impressive pair of 1-CC's, Sir Ilpalazzo. Can I ask you a brief synopsis of the cheese techniques you used in Violent Storm, if you don't mind?
I'd like to focus on this game, sooner or later, but figuring out just any boss beyond the 3rd one is putting me off. One-line sentences are perfectly fine for me.

Also...why no Guy for you, on Final Fight? I never really liked it (too hard to use for me), but I was wondering your reasons for not liking it too.
Last edited by Randorama on Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Air Master Burst »

Final Vendetta is pretty great so far, the grab distance could be extended a bit but otherwise it seems to handle pretty well. The sprites look very classic Neo Geo and the soundtrack is really good! Enemy variety could be a bit better, but they do a good job with what's there.

The only major issue is a lack of custom remapping, none of the 6-8 defaults are quite perfect for my arcade stick. It seems they've been patching it pretty diligently so far, though, so I'm holding out hope here.
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Sir Ilpalazzo
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Randorama wrote:Very impressive pair of 1-CC's, Sir Ilpalazzo. Can I ask you a brief synopsis of the cheese techniques you used in Violent Storm?, if you don't mind?
I'd like to focus on this game, sooner or later, but figuring out just any boss beyond the 3rd one is putting me off. One-line sentences are perfectly fine for me.
Thanks! I haven't had Violent Storm on the mind lately but here's what I can pull together (all applicable to Boris). These aren't always the fastest or most efficient strategies, but I found them the safest:

ST3 Drigger: Do damage by grabbing him, landing two squeezes, then throwing (this does more damage to bosses than Boris's jumping slams). Only go for grabs when he's taunting or coming out of his long-range flying headbutt (try baiting this out so you can punish it). The best way to do damage is to throw him against a wall, then use your OTG grab to immediately pick him back up and repeat - but after you've done this enough times, he actually gains resistance to your OTG grab (the window will shrink to something like 5 frames or less). Get him down to 40% health, then start throw-looping him - or just do the throw loop against the wall the entire time if you're confident you can keep your timing consistent.

ST4 Doyle: Grab, squeeze, and throw at the start of the fight; you can follow up every one of these with Boris's down-forward-punch roll special for some extra damage. Once you've knocked him down, get far away, to the opposite corner if possible, to bait him into flying offscreen and descending on you. As he lands, stand inside him, then quickly walk away up or down - the idea is to bait him into doing his quick vertical swing once he's landed, which will squander his usual landing invincibility and let you go back in for another throw.

ST5 Mr. Julius: Walk into him and grab. The loop here is very particular - squeeze twice, then jump - do not slam or do any attack, just jump - then wait a beat, then jump again. Only after this second empty jump should he escape your grab. Walk into him again, grab, and repeat. If you start getting close to the edge of the screen (where you won't be able to regrab him once he pops out of your grip), make one of your jumps a backwards one; just be prepared for this to allow him to escape a little earlier. You can do a more aggressive loop using your OTG grab as with Drigger, but the timing to OTG grab him is significantly tighter even at the start and becomes moreso as the fight goes on (I think it eventually shrinks to one frame). This strategy is slow, but Julius in particular feels impossible to fight straight-up.

Throw the Crossbones enemy into the statue before the fight to guarantee a pipe drop as insurance.

ST6 Sledge: Grab him, squeeze twice, then throw him towards the other side of the screen. As he gets up, use Boris's down-forward-jump lunge special directly towards him. If your timing is right, he'll block - walk into him, grab, and repeat. If he ever gets away, try to stay far away and approach him with lunges to force him to block.

ST7 Red Fredy: Use the same strategy as for Sledge. There's a decent chance Fredy will go for a lunge of his own instead of blocking, but if he does, your lunge will stuff his and knock him down. Lunge back to the opposite side of the screen to escape afterwards and try again.

FINAL - Geld: Walk into him, grab, squeeze twice, then walk forward - he should pop out of your grab and be caught again. Repeat. Once he gets to half HP, he'll eventually do a super burst that covers the area around him and will force you to special / superjoy out - anticipate that and break the loop yourself with a throw and maybe a followup roll OTG for extra damage once he approaches that threshold. After that, he'll enter his second phase - once you've gotten in on him, grab him, squeeze twice, then use your special to i-frame through the mini-burst he'll use to escape. Wait for it to end, then go in for another grab. Good luck getting in on him during any of his phases, I never figured out a reliable way to and just depended on keeping him in the loop.
Also...why no Guy for you, on Final Fight? I never really liked it (too hard to use for me), but I was wondering your reasons for not liking it too.
Guy is fine, but he lacks one of Cody's two essential abilities - his knife usage, frequently vital for crowd control and quick damage on Hollywoods - and his damage is lower enough to be problematic, especially on enemies with punch resistance like Andores. He also actually has noticeably worse hitboxes on some of his aerials and his special. I could see him being easier to clear the game with than the highly technical Haggar - he still does have Cody's ability to wall off many enemies just by standing in place and punching, and his speed is a decently useful asset - but he's definitely the least interesting of the three characters to me, and feels distinctly flawed next to Cody. Cody and Haggar are two of the most fun characters in the genre, anyway, so it's fine that the game's other protagonist ends up being a bit of a junior partner.
Air Master Burst wrote:Final Vendetta is pretty great so far, the grab distance could be extended a bit but otherwise it seems to handle pretty well. The sprites look very classic Neo Geo and the soundtrack is really good! Enemy variety could be a bit better, but they do a good job with what's there.

The only major issue is a lack of custom remapping, none of the 6-8 defaults are quite perfect for my arcade stick. It seems they've been patching it pretty diligently so far, though, so I'm holding out hope here.
Genuinely excited to play this sometime. It looks rough around the edges in spots and the overly-fluid, snap-less animations are unappealing, but it looks like it gets a lot right and seems much more appealing to me than the recent TMNT.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Air Master Burst »

Been digging deeper into Final Vendetta, but unfortunately the Ultra difficulty is locked behind a Miller clear and I kind of suck with grapplers. The underwhelming grab distance makes it even more of a chore, and while I guess he has a cheesy infinite that makes things easier, that's just not how I play these games. Also, his aerial attacks all only hit down, so the only way he can get the hidden 1UP on level 2 is by carefully keeping a barrel alive while fighting 2-3 dudes at once. I'm almost there, but the final boss gets me every time because there's nowhere to hide with Miller's hilariously enormous hitbox.

That said, the devs update it constantly and are very receptive to feedback. Apparently it's actually getting a physical Neo Geo release at some point, which would instantly make it the best belt-scroller on the system (not that that's a particularly high bar to clear). It's not on the same level as Fight'N Rage or Streets of Rage 4, but it's also only about 30 minutes for a full clear, which makes it easier to jump into.

I personally think it plays better than Shredder's Revenge (which only beats it out for GOTY so far based on the off-the-charts nostalgia). After I finish Final Vendetta, it's on to Jitsu Force to see if that can dethrone TMNT for my GOTY.

Unless they get Bomb Rush Cyberfunk out the door before 2023, in which case it's theirs to lose.

ETA: Also blocking still seems completely unnecessary and kind of stupid. If the block button wasn't necessary for multi-input commands I'd never touch it. Maybe Duke needs it, haven't tried him yet.

ETA2: Looks like the Neo Geo forums HATE this game, which is hilarious given how shitty that system's current library of belt-scrollers is.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by spmbx »

Air Master Burst wrote: ETA2: Looks like the Neo Geo forums HATE this game, which is hilarious given how shitty that system's current library of belt-scrollers is.

If that bunch of autistic fucks hates it, it must be good.
No clue why anyone would visit that place
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Sima Tuna »

Weird as hell to me that people would hate on Final Vendetta on a neogeo forum, when the majority of neogeo scrollers were/are complete shit like Robo Army and Burning Fight.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by BurlyHeart »

Final Vendetta is great. I cleared Hard with Miller before the patch, using the basic beat 'em up tactics of knowing your spacing, enemy knowledge and crowd control. I have yet to learn his new juggles. Stopped playing to focus on TMNT, but turtles just can't hold my attention. Shredder's Revenge is a fun romp, but I do prefer Final Vendetta. Will return to it soon after...

...Ninja Warriors Once Again! I am so happy to be able to play this again. [I got lucky that a used PS4 Pro became available locally and cheaply. I was also very fortunate that nobody was willing to buy my collection of physical shmups/beat em ups back when I was foolishly trying to sell them.]. Did a quick playthrough with the Murder Machine aka Ninja. The game is so well designed. I love how powerful you feel. One punch deaths, swinging goons around on top of each other. I played the game maybe 3 years ago, got the 1cc with Ninja and barely touched the game after. Not this time. I am going to play the shit out of this. Try out all the characters, and especially looking forward to learning Raiden.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Air Master Burst »

The funniest part is that most of them are complaining about the graphics not being Neo Geo enough and too generic or some shit, but the first time I saw a screenshot without knowing anything about it I was like "Hey, that looks like a Neo Geo game!" so I dunno what they're even on about.

As far as being "too generic" goes, well, Burning Fight says hello. And that game fucking sucks!
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

I wonder if those of you calling NG brawlers "shit" have really tried? They're not in the same league as Capcom's but they far from bad games. Even something like King of the Monsters 2 can be fun once you know how to approach to it. Actual shit.

And gotta agree that F. Vendetta looks generic, boring, and derivative. They made in no time, after all.

Image

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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by BurlyHeart »

I totally missed the Telephone Box having a life bar :lol:

I think Final Vendetta looks very good with a fairly cool & unique style for a modern beat em up. I certainly wouldn't say it looks boring, even when compared to a pinnacle of the genre.
But each to their own.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Sima Tuna »

Bassa-Bassa wrote:I wonder if those of you calling NG brawlers "shit" have really tried? They're not in the same league as Capcom's but they far from bad games. Even something like King of the Monsters 2 can be fun once you know how to approach to it.
I have tried. They are shit. Sengoku II and Mutation Nation are good. The others are bad. King of the Monsters 2 is complete horseshit made to screw over the player.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Air Master Burst »

Bassa-Bassa wrote:I wonder if those of you calling NG brawlers "shit" have really tried? They're not in the same league as Capcom's but they far from bad games. Even something like King of the Monsters 2 can be fun once you know how to approach to it.
I've tried them, they suck. Mutation Nation has its charm, and I haven't really dug into Sengoku 2 or 3, but the overall selection is somehow even more anemic than the Neo Geo's shmup library.

King of the Monsters 2 ruins what could be a true classic by being exceptionally spiteful to any poor sap masochistic enough to try and play it as intended. Don't try to tell me a game about kaiju using cool wrestling moves that's only playable by avoiding all the cool wrestling moves doesn't fucking suck, because it does.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Ashita no Joe Densetsu is probably bad. The boxing-based mechanics makes it all too deliberate and slow to be enjoyable as you need to tightly position your character for a hit and there's not much of crowd control in the game. The move set isn't implemented in the best way either. Maybe fans of boxing games look at it with other eyes, but boxing games were always the poor bunch in the whole fighting genre, anyway. It doesn't help that visually it's even laughable at times.

The rest, aren't.

Sengoku 1 and 2 are likely the biggest memorizers in the genre. It's even difficult to compare them with any other brawler. The first has its issues but you can just take it as a prototype for the sequel, which is a stellar game no matter what - the diversity of moves and techniques makes incredibly fun the task of finding out the best approach (which sadly isn't as fun once you do), and artistically is like no other game. If you're familiarized with Japanese mythology it's even more fun.

Sengoku 2001 has been mentioned in this forum many times. Nobody calls it bad, just wrongly named and short of enemy types.

King of the Monsters 2 is indeed a waste of resources in a way and ultimately quite poor mechanically, but until you find out it's okayish thanks to the colorful and elaborated visuals and atmosphere. Couldn't call it a bad a game, and I got to reach the last stage on my own.

Mutation Nation and Robo Army aren't too different each other - cool visuals and music, a bit lacking mechanically but they still work thanks to their pace and sense of spectacle. Not stellar, not bad, either.

Burning Fight is full of issues and stupidly nasty, but the way you combo punchs and kicks is (or was) quite unique. With a lot of patience you can make your way through it, and, as it's again a cool game visually, it may have its place.

Ninja Combat, in the case you want to include it here, is great. Again, quite unique, it works well enough mechanically, has a lot of variety -though not from the beginning-, and artistically it's very cool.

If these are bad, then what's something like this.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Air Master Burst »

Bassa-Bassa wrote:If these are bad, then what's something like this.
Just because even worse games exist don't make most of those games not bad.

Like, if you were a big Fatal Fury/KoF fan in the 90s, I get it. You did what you had to. But in this day and age I can't call any of those games "good" when actual good games from the time period are just as easy (if not easier) to play than any of these. There isn't a single CPS1 beat-em-up that doesn't outclass the entire Neo Geo lineup.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by qmish »

What you're calling as "bad" are just 7/10 games, and you're too used to playing 9/10 instead :roll:

Anyway, why don't y'all just stay on positive and talk more about what you like... instead of bashing each others favs...

:mrgreen:

p.s.
Also stay away from neo-geo com forums, lol. That place is just CUHRAYZEE.

Neo Geo For Life is much more adequate (now reborn as "neo geo forever").
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Just because even worse games exist don't make most of those games not bad.
My point is that "bad" is an adjective you don't use for something that works, even if it's just mildly. The distance quality-wise between something like Robo Army and something like Final Fight or Captain Commando is in no way comparable to the distance between Robo Army and Cliffhanger.

Like, if you were a big Fatal Fury/KoF fan in the 90s, I get it. You did what you had to. But in this day and age I can't call any of those games "good" when actual good games from the time period are just as easy (if not easier) to play than any of these. There isn't a single CPS1 beat-em-up that doesn't outclass the entire Neo Geo lineup.
There isn't a single CPS1 brawler that doesn't outclass any other title in the genre from the same time period, man. You've just set your line way too high. I guess, other than Capcom's, you only save late stuff like Guardians, Violent Storm, Night Slashers, Zero Team and League Man? Maybe, perhaps, Undercover Cops, Metamorphic Force, and the IGS games do pass if you have a good day as well?

And you really don't call say, KOF96, "good"!?
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Air Master Burst »

Bassa-Bassa wrote:There isn't a single CPS1 brawler that doesn't outclass any other title in the genre from the same time period, man. You've just set your line way too high. I guess, other than Capcom's, you only save late stuff like Guardians, Violent Storm, Night Slashers, Zero Team and League Man? Maybe, perhaps, Undercover Cops, Metamorphic Force, and the IGS games do pass if you have a good day as well?

And you really don't call say, KOF96, "good"!?
I don't play KOF so I have no idea if KOF96 is good or not.

I'd put Streets of Rage, Splatterhouse 3, and Revenge of Death Adder on the same level as any CPS1 game, as well as Zero Team and Night Slashers. The Denjin Makai games might be on that level too, but I haven't really had a chance to dig into them. The first Double Dragon probably is too, although I've never quite got on with any of them personally.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Sima Tuna »

Zero Team is better than most beat em ups, including CPS1 games. The best (beltscrolling) beat em ups IMO are SoR 2, Zero Team, Vendetta, Double Dragon (fc), River City Ransom (although it's kind of a mix of genres), Final Fight and Warriors of Fate. I'll admit to not playing every beat em up ever made though.

I don't really want to get into a discussion of personal taste on what games are good or what "good" even means. With titles like Burning Fight, even those who have 1ccs are on record saying the game is shit. Punch/combo attacks have no hitstun and enemies spend half or more of their time onscreen (or off) fully invincible. The infamous Duffy is a great example. A couple Duffies can put you on the ground by spamming invincible moves and then take a life off you for free with no chance to recover, because they can stand on top of your body and keep doing invincible charges and buttslams. Most of Burning Fight consists of battling multiple Duffies + whatever those jumping chain whip guys are called. There's such a massive gulf of quality if you compare that to even the first Streets of Rage or Golden Axe game.

King of the Monsters 2 is shit because the only reliable method to clear the game is to manipulate it in a way that forgoes all of its enjoyable game mechanics. Imagine if devil may cry 3 was impossible to complete unless you killed every enemy by gun spamming ebony and ivory from across the map. Even if the music and visuals were identical, people would think DMC3 was a shit game. King of the Monsters 1 is much better because you can actually play the fucking game.
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it290
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by it290 »

Sima Tuna wrote:King of the Monsters 2 is shit because the only reliable method to clear the game is to manipulate it in a way that forgoes all of its enjoyable game mechanics.
Not that I disagree, but you literally just described Double Dragon :lol:
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Sima Tuna
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Sima Tuna »

it290 wrote:
Sima Tuna wrote:King of the Monsters 2 is shit because the only reliable method to clear the game is to manipulate it in a way that forgoes all of its enjoyable game mechanics.
Not that I disagree, but you literally just described Double Dragon :lol:
You saying Double Dragon Famicom is like that? That's the one in my list. Double Dragon Arcade is a broken game because of the slowdown.
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It's pointless to discuss if arcade DD is a good game or not until we get some kind of definitive release that fixes the slowdown. Until then, it's in the same camp as Metal Slug 2. Could be the best game ever or the worst game, but the question is moot.
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BIL
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by BIL »

It's the Elbow, and a lack of comparably good options, that really relegates AC DD1 to a salvage project. You can limit its use, like I do, but the rest of your moveset is awkward to connect with and weak - doesn't surprise me that anyone not in love with the game's aesthetic and engine will just say fuck it and break out the Spanish Archer.

AC DD2 fixed this by 1) dialling the Elbow's damage way down 2) improving the surrounding moveset and 3) upping the enemy+timer intensity. AI is just as confounded by the 'bow, and it's still an instant knockdown, but the damage is puny, and you'll soon be either swamped or timed out if you spam it - and more importantly, you'll probably want to tear into enemies with the much nastier new Sidekick and its followup grapple or Tatsumaki.

There actually are a couple of situations where the raw Elbow comes in handy, but they're drastically harder than anything faced in AC DD1. This is either facing multiple boss-type enemies, or the rare enemies whose range and speed will crush your stronger, slower pokes.

Double Burnov: Fat Bastards no Kizaishi. Grab hitbox is nastier than it looks.
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Invade GREAT VALUE T800's space with Elbow, then commence demolition.
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Funnily enough, the AI having absolute no idea how to deal with the Elbow's unique hitbox is kind of a cross-platform Double Dragon tradition. It's just as present in FC DD1, but again, you have plenty of good options and it also arrives late in its unlocking moveset. It's even in the superlatively excellent DD Advance, where it more or less realises its original intended purpose, as an emergency knockdown for pincer/crowd escapes.

KANASHIMI no ON-AXIS ATTACK :cool: :lol:
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For an example of this balancing process in reverse, see Splatterhouse Part 3 (Japan) VS Splatterhouse III (US). The former's Roundhouse is an elegant crowd flattener / boss stuffer; does near-nil damage and lasts a split-second, but it's totally invincible. The latter turned it into basically Haggar's FF1 desperation attack minus the health penalty, and naturally people tend to complain it's the only move worth using in that version.
Last edited by BIL on Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by qmish »

The Denjin Makai games might be on that level too, but I haven't really had a chance to dig into them.
Denjin Makai II is on level of CPS2 games, being among most important 90s beatemups.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Air Master Burst »

Finally got the Miller clear on Final Vendetta this morning after way too many runs ending at the final boss. Overall I think he might actually be the easiest character to use. I absolutely shredded the game with him despite not being great with beat-em-up grapplers, but there are a couple of fights where his speed and hitbox are a major liability, and the final boss is one of them. Conversely, I breezed through the game with Claire, only taking like 3 runs to 1CC it. I'm much better with fast characters, though, and she definitely has a harder time with some of the more difficult group fights. Miller can also cheese a lot of encounters with elbow drop spam, while Claire has to work for it a bit more.

Sadly, Ultra mode appears to be mostly the same as hard. You only start with one extra life, and they appear to have removed all of the hidden lives. Still, I appreciate the thought.

On to the Duke clear. Maybe he'll actually give me a reason to use the block mechanic! I never found it useful with Claire or Miller, but who knows?

ETA: Duke's grand upper is pretty OP, and comboing it into his forward special flurry absolutely deletes life bars. Just gotta be careful to let off forward on the heavy strike or else it'll kick them out of range. Came within a half inch of beating the final boss on my first real try. I'll finish it off later today and move on to something else for a while, unless Ultra gets an actual bump in either AI or number of mobs.
King's Field IV is the best Souls game.
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by velo »

it290 wrote:
Sima Tuna wrote:King of the Monsters 2 is shit because the only reliable method to clear the game is to manipulate it in a way that forgoes all of its enjoyable game mechanics.
Not that I disagree, but you literally just described Double Dragon :lol:
I'd say SoR2 as well... but apparently everybody else on earth really loves jab infinites and throw loops.
BIL wrote:Sodom's design angle seems obscure, but consistent. It's apparently:

1: "LMAO he instakill u @ range unless u MegaWhiff XD"
2: "OSHI he get grab outta he clothesline powerup - FO FREE :O"

I have to consult this handy video every time I return to FF for another shot at the 1LC before getting distracted by something. :cool:
Thanks for trying to help. When I try to do that, that's not how it goes down. :(
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it290
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by it290 »

I mean, sure, SoR2 has the jab infinite thing, but it's only situationally useful (especially in Mania mode), doesn't break the game, and most importantly it can be completely ignored and the game is still totally playable and clearable. That doesn't describe KoTM2 or DD1 at all...
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Re: S2RPS - Beat 'Em Up 911

Post by Air Master Burst »

Just played the demo of Fallen City Brawl on a whim, and it's still pretty rough, but damn if there aren't a couple of great ideas in there. There's this dope screen where you fight alongside a badass dog who goes absolutely apeshit on a big crowd of mooks, kinda like the monster truck version of the dog button from Shadow Dancer or Dead to Rights. The shotgun is pretty cool, although it would be way cooler if enemies would pick it up and use it on you back.

The boss is also a really cool design, although he wasn't nearly aggressive enough. He's a rogue military lookin dude with a giant grenade launcher in one hand and a DEAD BODY he drags around in the other. He randomly sets himself on fire and no-sells it, and if you touch him when he's on fire it burns you too. I kept hoping he'd slap me all around the screen with the body of his fallen soldier or whatever but he mostly just kept doing the stupid full-screen firebomb attack.

Hitboxes are surprisingly good, although the enemy motorcycle riders are probably too generous on this. Jumping is stiff as fuck since it's a set distance and there's no jumping down lead-in attack. There's some sort of special meter that, once full, makes you glow purple and slowly depletes when activated, although I couldn't tell if it had any mechanical effect. There's a special attack you can do while glowing that will take off a whole chunk of meter that's kinda neat. There's also a cool SOR1 style summon special where a sports car shows up and dudes in full swat gear pop out and unload on the whole screen with machine guns. Looks pretty cool although it doesn't do nearly enough damage.

The speed on everything REALLY needs to be cranked up like 200%. The enemies aren't nearly aggressive enough and all have way too much health. There's no way to exit unless you alt-F4 and I couldn't find a way to switch to the second supposedly playable character. It still needs a ton of work and that 2022 release date seems... overly ambitious, if I'm being generous. But there's definite potential here! Hopefully they can pull this thing off. Props for even having a playable demo at this point, really.

Overall an enjoyable 10 minutes.
King's Field IV is the best Souls game.
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