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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:31 am 


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I think Streets of Rage 4 is fantastic. Its player movesets, enemy movesets, and encounter design are all best-in-class, but it is a bit long for a single-sitting game and the bosses are pretty weak (though that might be par for the course for the series, only SOR2 had a bunch of great bosses).

To throw in my two cents, though: I think the game is best played in arcade mode (once you've done a playthrough to learn enemy behaviors). It is slightly long for a playthrough meant to be done in one sitting but the levels aren't long enough to make for interesting challenges when played in the segmented story mode or in the individual stage select mode. (I don't really find the scoring in the game very gratifying so I'm not really interested in it as a score attack game, but if you are that would make the stage select mode more appealing, I think.) I think the survival mode is really novel, and interesting to dive into at first, but it's incredibly imbalanced and ultimately devolves into accumulating elemental buffs and spamming your blitz - once it's been turned into a massive AoE attack - for easy crowd control. Though it's a fun side mode, it streamlines the game's combat so much that I can't think of it as the centerpiece of the game.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:39 pm 


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Mischief Maker wrote:
The Streets of Rage games have always been too long, all the way back to 1. I have childhood memories of playing co-op with friends and exclaiming, "oh, COME ON!" when the recycled bosses start showing up in Mr. X's tower.


The boss rush is the most fun part of the game, man. :o


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:48 pm 



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I fell for the marketing scheme dude. Based on the relentless shilling from BIL, I nabbed Ninja Spirit. :lol: Was a little surprised to see no region select from an ACA release. So I'm stuck with NINJA SPIRIT instead of SAIGO NO NINDOU.

First impressions are positive overall. I was able to blast past the first two levels, so it's already a gentler into than a typical Irem memohell. 8) I'm a little confused about level 3 though. I like how the game gives you your weapons and lets YOU decide what to use. Reminds me of Thunder Force AC, a shmup I played only recently and loved. I don't understand why more games don't do this. Just give the player control over all the weapons and their traveling speed and trust them to figure things out.

That said... I do have all these options, but I'm a little confused about what does what. I figured out sword was great for levels 1 and 2, and I could swing it to keep myself safe from projectiles. But now there are these ashigaru fucks with tanegashima rifles, and their bullets travel fast! I try to run past them, then an ogre spawns and I die. Or I try to dodge the ogre and kill him, then they shoot me. Or... I kill the ogre while retreating, but then the ogre respawns and now the gunners are on my ass again... :oops: I've tried all the weapons in stage 3. I THINK Kusarigama might be best here, but I'm not too expert at doing the "I whip my hair back and forth I whip my hair back and forth" motions. :lol:

I will be reading through the archived posts from BIL and others in the index. If there's any specific info not listed there about stage 3, feel free to let me know. ACA needs to do a better job advertising these games btw. A lot of these old arcade games, frankly, look like total ass in screenshots. These games are best in motion.

Spoiler: show
Image

SICK NINJA RAVE DANCE


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:20 pm 


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Sima Tuna wrote:
That said... I do have all these options, but I'm a little confused about what does what.


Figuring that out is part of the fun. :)
Saigo has been discussed a lot so you'll likely find any info you might need indexed. Feel free to ask stuff anyway; good games like these are always worth re-discussing.
The ninja pit on the last stage is the only bullshit, pure memorization section that really benefits from a guide (there's an image of the route to take in the index). For more of this kind of Irem last-minute-bullshit check out Kaiketsu Yanchamaru (ARC). :)

Sima Tuna wrote:
like how the game gives you your weapons and lets YOU decide what to use. Reminds me of Thunder Force AC, a shmup I played only recently and loved. I don't understand why more games don't do this. Just give the player control over all the weapons and their traveling speed and trust them to figure things out.


Check out Hagane (SFC), which also follows this type of design.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:44 am 


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Sima Tuna wrote:
I've tried all the weapons in stage 3. I THINK Kusarigama might be best here, but I'm not too expert at doing the "I whip my hair back and forth I whip my hair back and forth" motions.

The dev recommended weapon will have a flashing icon, and yes at that section it's the Kusarigama. To do the spin, I input the direction 45-degrees off from the attack direction (e.g. right, then diagonal up-right).

Someday I will beat Ninja Spirit, but for now I'm still stonewalled by stage 6.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:47 am 


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Sima Tuna wrote:
I fell for the marketing scheme dude. Based on the relentless shilling from BIL, I nabbed Ninja Spirit. :lol: Was a little surprised to see no region select from an ACA release. So I'm stuck with NINJA SPIRIT instead of SAIGO NO NINDOU.


I have to check, but I thought it was the Saigo no Nindou version? Hamster has a habit of using the western names for US/EU releases, even when the JP version is used (Kid Niki is a good example of this. Despite using the Kid Niki name, it only has Kaiketsu Yanchamaru). Some of the early PS4 US releases were stuck with just the US versions, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:21 am 


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Yeah, AFAIK, it's the JP rev - Saigo no Nindou - you get with ACA. This is most definitely the case on NTSCJ PS4 - I would be surprised if it differs overseas.

An easy way to tell which one you're playing - die at a boss. Ninja Spirit will send you back just a bit. Saigo, meanwhile, has only one checkpoint per stage, at its midpoint - that's where you'll go back to.

Or just watch the title sequence. Only the World revision has "NINJA SPIRIT" fade in - Saigo leaves it at the moon runes.

As for stages 1 and 2, they're a giveaway. :wink: Stage 3 is where the curve starts to ascend. Expect it and Stage 4 to push back a bit. Stage 5 falls back slightly - it can kill, but is largely neutralised by routing. Stage 6 is the game's most sustained threat, and one of the most harrowing passages you'll find in any scrolling action game. Stage 7 is short but brutally route-intensive, nowhere moreso than in the infamous Pit, which you should use this to neutralise. Image And then the last boss is a motherfucker, these should help. 10~15minutes of near-perfect controlled chaos.

I suggest ignoring the recommended weapons - sometimes they'll be very sub-optimal, in my opinion. I couldn't tell you which gets recommended where, at this point - my eyes are on the action. For Stage 3-1, Kusarigama is indeed the best pick. Note how its standing horizontal strike will mow straight through Rifles and their bullets. Rifle incoming? Rifle got a shot off? Standing Kusarigama, job done.

Assuming you've got POW (there's a carrier at the start of 3-1; if you die and respawn, use him to immediately POW up Kusarigama) - you can also dovetail seamlessly into an overhead swing. As Jack said, you do not need to mongle the pad/stick around to get the swing - once you've executed the initial strike, just nudge any adjacent direction for a full 180' (or 360', if you're off the ground)

ALART! Image There is a small, but potentially deadly glitch associated with the POW swing. It's easy to avoid with a bit of muscle memory, but will likely make you say "NAWW FER FUCK SAKE" early on! Here is the deets!

Also, HG101 wrote a bunch of dangerously ignorant shite about Saigo's weapons (and indeed Saigo itself) - plus ca change! Here is a potent anti-bullshit serum! It will stop your knackers from shrivelling up and falling off - the way theirs did, so many years ago! Image

Anyhoo - POW Swing's especially good here, since it'll wipe the air clean of leaping Katanas, while also slamming down on anything approaching from your six.

So now you know how to neutralise the Rifles and Katanas. Giants (sporting the classic Ochimusha motif, hence their badass PCE name "Ghost of Fugitive Warrior" Image) are the rub. Here is a great learning opportunity that will serve you to the end! Image You'll have noticed they lash out once in proximity. Their attack is devastatingly fast, and all but impossible to dodge if you're caught in its radius. HOWEWER! They're placed in a long, harmless cooldown, afterward... and more importantly, they can't distinguish a jumping player from a running one. They're completely Y-AXIS BLIND.

This concept is going to become very important in 3-2, and Stage 4, and Stage 6-2, all of which introduce their own XY-Axis-triggered heavy killers. With Stage 4 on the horizon, you would do well to observe the SUPER ADVANCED TECHNIQUE Ryuichi Hop, and the ULTIMATE DEATH TECHNIQUE, Ryuichi Drop!

Spoiler: show
Image


Slowed-down:

Spoiler: show
Image


Now, it is normal to say "OH HELL NAWW!" when confronted with Ryuichi! He is one hard cunt! Image But as you can see, his KAZEKIRI draw cannot beat your jump acceleration! The second example, the Ryuichi Drop, relies on tripping his X-axis while falling - it looks pants-shittingly tight, but due to his slash hitbox, is actually quite forgiving!

Spoofing Saigo's simple enemy AI is key to consistent victory. Enemies may spawn at random times/places - but their behaviour is carved in granite, and further restrained by spawn limits (you will never see three Ryuichis, or two Giants). You're not dealing with total chaos, a popular misconception of Saigo that promotes despair and/or blind RNG gambling. Rather, you're negotiating a shifting array of set parts, each with their own consistent solutions. The challenge is in executing these solutions on the fly.

Spoiler: show
Image


^^^ Enemies in hot pursuit, Monky Monk rushing in for the bulldozer kill? Naw, tripped his Y-Axis on engagement, ain't missed a step.

Spoiler: show
Image


^ fooling around. as is Saigo's wont, reflexes help, but dynamic tactical play is the best defense against its erratic spawns.
1] Ryuichi Hop - you can get incredibly close and still beat his draw, jump acceleration is king. Never feel compelled to retreat!
2] Purple windup - note their significant delay. Note also their monstrous reach!
3] Moleman ain't shit up close. Sneaky prick.
4] Ryuichi is useless while transitioning between ceiling/floor.
5] Ryuichi Drop - trigger his X-axis while falling into pointblank, he'll miss you by a mile.

Thankfully, Giants are a nice easy intro to XY spoofing! So, when you see a Giant up ahead, take a high running jump over him. Or aim a descending jump onto him. Once you've tripped his X-Axis, he'll whiff - and you'll have an invaluable window of time to hustle past. You can also flat-out kill them, but of course, war is not fought in a vacuum, and Saigo laughs at plot armour. If you're gonna kill one, make sure to cover your six, and twelve, as bullets and katanas will be raining on your position.

Stage 3-2 (Marsh) has its own deadly innovations, but I must check the Bloomberg. Image Remember, Tuna-kun!

    ImageALWAYS Image
    ImageBE Image
    ImageLEARNING Image
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:54 am 



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BIL wrote:
Yeah, AFAIK, it's the JP rev - Saigo no Nindou - you get with ACA. This is most definitely the case on NTSCJ PS4 - I would be surprised if it differs overseas.

An easy way to tell which one you're playing - die at a boss. Ninja Spirit will send you back just a bit. Saigo, meanwhile, has only one checkpoint per stage, at its midpoint - that's where you'll go back to.



Ah. Pretty sure it's Saigo then. The checkpoints are typical Irem, aka "git gud scrub." Not sure why it says NINJA SPIRIT at the game selection. BTW, this game still seems nicer than a lot of Irem memohells. You're all warning me about ninja pit, but that's stage 7. That's a really long time for an Irem game to wait to hit you with total bullshit. Even metal slug 3 (so fondly remembered by many) brings the bullshit to 11 before the final stage.

Quote:
Also, HG101 wrote a bunch of dangerously ignorant shite about Saigo's weapons (and indeed Saigo itself) - plus ca change! Here is a potent anti-bullshit serum! It will stop your knackers from shrivelling up and falling off - the way theirs did, so many years ago! Image

Spoofing Saigo's simple enemy AI is key to consistent victory. Enemies may spawn at random times/places - but their behaviour is carved in granite, and further restrained by spawn limits (you will never see three Ryuichis, or two Giants). You're not dealing with total chaos, a popular misconception of Saigo that promotes despair and/or blind RNG gambling. Rather, you're negotiating a shifting array of set parts, each with their own consistent solutions. The challenge is in executing these solutions on the fly.


Yeah, I've already encountered a lot of Saigo information on the internet that seemed wrong to me. I saw one speedrun of the (way easier) PCE game where they were just saying everything is RNG, you can't react to anything... And I was thinking, "bitch why don't I see you using the kusarigama sweep at all?" Sure, he beat the game fast, but it wasn't a 1LC even with the added health of the PCE version. >_> He used grenades for the entire game. I can't remember him ever switching once the run started.

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Remember, Tuna-kun!

    ImageALWAYS Image
    ImageBE Image
    ImageLEARNING Image


Roger! Saigo is definitely a game that teaches that! I noticed right away how many different enemy types there are and how they introduce them by steps. First basic ninja, then here's a house section with feet stabbers, now here's a monk, here's an ogre etc.

Between Ninja Spirit, Ninja Saviors and the soon-to-be released Okinawa Rush (if I get that one), I'll be in R2tR heaven for a while.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:45 pm 


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Saigo arrived at an interesting time not just for Irem, but also shooting-influenced sidescrollers in general. One year after R-Type, same year as ImageFight - the now-legendary "living memoriser" ethos (tm/c Perikles) was hot of the presses, Saigo and other luminaries largely doing their own things (Mr. Heli is another).

I'm convinced Saigo's chassis was The Legend of Kage; a similarly volatile, open-plan affair with many prefigurings. Wuxia moonjumps... slash+shot always on... free player/enemy overlap, with only weapons lethal. Saigo's STG influence actually seems to have come via Konami: Contra's newly-minted hybrid of gravity-bound scrolling and STG-massive killcount, plus an unmistakable Gradius/Twinbee nod, in its Option shadows.

What I really wonder about is Saigo's influence on Metal Slug; there's a tempting through-line from Kage to Nazca, in those sharply un-Contra melee and overlap mechanics. Slug also shares not only Saigo's distinctive "sweet n' low" shot ceiling (mild tap is all you need for the max, a blazing deathwall), but also its massive attack hitboxes, ensuring uproarious carnage with every slash/blast. The "Akio" in Saigo's default HS table is promising... though AFAIK, the first Irem game he was officially credited for was Air Duel.

Because I am a lazy bastard, I still have not finished my Saigo OGST (Other Gaming Strategy Treatise) :o For now, here's my most ardent Saigo lovin' to date ITT, covering my most recent engagement with the game. Once I was reliably posting a 1LC a weeknight, I decided I could finally move onto some new (2 ME :oops:) games. :cool: Scattered across those three pages are my most up-to-date R&D on various endgame matters, like how to not get glitched @ Stage 5, how to counter STEALTH RYUCHI, and That Bitch Boney-Sama.

Rabbit Hop Dojo vs Strong Bones School, The Final: Dec 18, 2020 ~ Jan 16, 2021 Image Image Image

Some crises of faith along the way, mostly centering on Stage 6-1, and the final boss. The former... early on, I was considering using Grenades, to disarm the menace of STEALTH RYUICHI (Monk+Ryuichi spawned on the same frame - executing a perfect Monk counter will set you up for his lurking pal!). As catalogued there, I gradually realised the menace is illusory; Ryuichi Hop the Monks to counter them and safely expose any lurking shitbirds, your Shadow train poised to annihilate both as you move on. Kusarigama is decisively recommended for st6-1; Grenades are fun and effective, but demand perfect technique to offset their lack of zako/bullet defense.

For Boney, the pattern I eventually arrived at seems to have held, as demonstrated a page or so back during a couple casual credits. Deceptively punishing, random boss.

You'll see mention of Rank throughout; basically, Saigo's large enemies and bosses gain a bit of HP with every POW you're carrying. Rank50 with POW Kusarigama and Grenades is my favoured setup, by far. However, this is speaking from a lot of experience, not only dodging POW carriers (though their locations are set, they appear from random sides), but also dealing with the spots where POW Katana and Shuriken are most useful. In the early going of a first 1CC attempt, it's probably best to not sweat Rank too much; you'll naturally die quite a bit while learning stages, which will likely keep you around Rank50/75. When you get more familiar with Saigo's stage layouts, and nearer the finish line, you might want to start skipping POWs to gain a small edge. Absolute control is more recommended for players who've gotten the basic layout down and want to ensure consistent nomisses - though even then, it's by no means vital.

I follow Sonny Chiba's prescription. If you're gonna fight - fight dirty! Image Also, the body-obliterating power of Rank50 Grenades gives me a god damn boner. Image

WASSHOI (■`W´■)

Image

Spoiler: show
Image


^^^ I'd wondered where I'd left that - Ryuichi Hop ZERO SHIKI Image Counterhop executed from ground zero, his draw starting while I'm still on the ground. You don't need to get this close - starting your jump from just outside his X-trigger is fine. Just to illustrate just how powerful and consistent Saigo's mechanics are.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:18 pm 


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AKIO definitely did the graphics for the first R-Type. So he was already at Irem mid 80s. I remember reading that the design for Dobkeratops was in the art portfolio he submitted when applying at Irem.

Here's an interview where another former staff gushes a bit about working alongside AKIO on In the Hunt and seeing him develop that distinctive pixel shaded look.

http://www.onemillionpower.com/shinichi ... etal-slug/

Quote:
(Hamada) There were a lot of amazing people, but the one that sticks out most is naturally the graphic designer, AKIO. This is a conversation I heard from a senior employee while I was there, but apparently AKIO figured out designs and coloring on paper first, and then drew them out as pixel art. And by doing that he was very particular about the intermediate color between the pixels when comparing them to the illustrations he did on paper. I guess he’d use the blur created by the CRT monitor to reproduce the intermediate color accurately, and used the thought process of determining colors a half pixel at a time when drawing them out.

To think that he’d even put effort toward trying to reproduce the illustrations. He’s truly a pixel art craftsman.


Quote:
(Hamada) I felt exactly the same way. AKIO’s graphics in R-Type were so exciting: Machines were fused with disgusting aliens, and even the machines themselves felt like they were dirty. His use of color is one of a kind.

And it moved so smoothly too.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:20 pm 


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Akio's first game at Irem was R-Type, so I'm sure he would've worked on Saigo no Nindou as well, especially if he's in the default score table. It does seem like most of Nazca came out of the original R-Type team, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine that through-line, I think.

As Rastan78's quotes attest to, my impression has always been that Akio was an absolute monster of an artist and everyone who ever worked with him was astonished beyond words at what he was capable of (and we can certainly see that in the work that he's created!).
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:21 pm 


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Blaster Master Zero 2 is sooooo much better than the first game, or the original for that matter. Glad that I gave it a chance. Top-down segments are still slow and a bit clunky, but the blast counter helps a lot, as does the fact that enemies pose a real threat now. Hoping for more side view boss fights since they are the highlight so far.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:36 pm 


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Rastan78 wrote:
AKIO definitely did the graphics for the first R-Type. So he was already at Irem mid 80s. I remember reading that the design for Dobkeratops was in the art portfolio he submitted when applying at Irem.

Here's an interview where another former staff gushes a bit about working alongside AKIO on In the Hunt and seeing him develop that distinctive pixel shaded look.

http://www.onemillionpower.com/shinichi ... etal-slug/


trap15 wrote:
Akio's first game at Irem was R-Type, so I'm sure he would've worked on Saigo no Nindou as well, especially if he's in the default score table. It does seem like most of Nazca came out of the original R-Type team, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine that through-line, I think.

As Rastan78's quotes attest to, my impression has always been that Akio was an absolute monster of an artist and everyone who ever worked with him was astonished beyond words at what he was capable of (and we can certainly see that in the work that he's created!).


So rad. Image Image Ta buds! I'd made a short-lived attempt to look up Nazca's Irem roots, a couple years back, but quickly got lost. I'd never seen that interview, will enjoy tonight!

I feel a lot more convinced there was some direct Saigo-Slug influence; of course, there were many other notable Irem sidescrollers, but none feel as conspicuously similar. Even Slug's jump handling, while obviously not as Wuxia-crazy as Saigo's, is notably floaty, and can be a similar liability if you get careless/panicky. And while Saigo's sprites aren't outright cartoony, it's definitely geared towards Slug's compact proportions and detail.

Tsukikage stance + walk cycle (Saigo no Nindou)
Spoiler: show
Image


Marco Rossi stance + walk cycle (Metal Slug)
Spoiler: show
Image


Man I love this stuff. Image Image

Volteccer_Jack wrote:
Blaster Master Zero 2 is sooooo much better than the first game, or the original for that matter. Glad that I gave it a chance. Top-down segments are still slow and a bit clunky, but the blast counter helps a lot, as does the fact that enemies pose a real threat now. Hoping for more side view boss fights since they are the highlight so far.


Astonishingly good sequel - very much what I like to think Sunsoft themselves would've created, had they not vanished at their latter-day FC peak. I need to get back to Zero 3, it was definitely off to a strong start before Bloodborne promptly devoured my summer.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:10 pm 


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trap15 wrote:
It does seem like most of Nazca came out of the original R-Type team, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine that through-line, I think.


Nah, most of them were later hires from 1990 onwards. Only guys that had their roots in R-Type were Akio and Kinte (I guess Kujo, too, if we're including playtesters)

Susumu debuted on Hammerin' Harry
Hiyamuta debuted on Air Duel
Meeher debuted on Undercover Cops
Kozo debuted on Hook
Hamada debuted on Ninja Baseball Bat Man
Andy debuted on Air Duel
Most of the NTM team debuted on Major Title 2, couple possibly debuted on Hook

Can't find any official acknowledgement that Akio worked on Ninja Spirit, but it's almost certainly him. Too similar to his other work from that era.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:04 pm 


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Quote:
Astonishingly good sequel - very much what I like to think Sunsoft themselves would've created, had they not vanished at their latter-day FC peak. I need to get back to Zero 3, it was definitely off to a strong start before Bloodborne promptly devoured my summer.


I have to check out Zero 2. I like the first one well enough, but it was a bit of a slog at times. Some of those overhead sections could really drag, especially given how OP your maxed out shot could be. Having a penetrating shot just makes all the terrain and obstacles pointless.

I had a similar experience with Curse of the Moon. Decent enough homage to the 8-bit CV's, but doesn't really feel all that exciting. Maybe there was a similar jump in quality with Curse 2 like what happened with Zero 2?

Speaking of legendary designers, I love the fact that Shin Nakamura of Psikyo fame worked on graphics for all these 8-bit style Inti Creates games.

Kinda wish they went with a 4:3 aspect ratio. Retro pixel art games with a slow walk speed and smallish sprites don't benefit from the move to 16:9 much IMO as it makes just walking from one screen edge to the next that much longer.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:05 pm 



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Rastan78 wrote:

I had a similar experience with Curse of the Moon. Decent enough homage to the 8-bit CV's, but doesn't really feel all that exciting.


Yeah, I played that one on a sale and still felt like it wasn't great. The easy mode was pathetic but the normal difficulty felt rough and kinda jank. I mean, jank compared to CV1 and CV3. I love the visual style of Curse of the Moon and I want to like it, but jumps feel... Bad. I kept clipping slightly into walls and platform edges and getting pissed off. I mean, I'd jump against a platform, trying to climb it, and I'd slide down instead. Which I don't recall happening when playing CV1 or CV3. The weapon types were all inferior to their classic Castlevania analogues imo.

By contrast, I like Blaster Master Zero a lot. Yeah, the on-foot sections aren't as strong as the tank sections, but that's always been the case. The first Zero was somewhat hamstrung by being a remake of Blaster Master 1. And it's the definitive way to experience Blaster Master 1 in a lot of ways. I have Blaster Master 2 but haven't played it yet. I've been saving it for when I need a game to play that I know will be fun.

Unrelated, tried some Ninja Spirit today and I think I've gotten worse. :D First the stage 1 monk got me and then I struggled to reach stage 2 boss. But I'm working my way up time attack in Ninja Warriors Once Again. When I've got a recorded time for every stage, then I'll probably pick my best character and start working on the 1cc.

Edit: and then I gave ninja spirit another go and made it back to level 3 with no trouble. :p


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:12 am 


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Rastan78 wrote:
I have to check out Zero 2. I like the first one well enough, but it was a bit of a slog at times. Some of those overhead sections could really drag, especially given how OP your maxed out shot could be. Having a penetrating shot just makes all the terrain and obstacles pointless.

For reference, I thought BMZ1 (and the original Blaster Master) was a complete slog and honestly difficult to get through. With BMZ2 on the other hand, I don't want to put the game down, and I'm eager to see what the game has in store as I get farther. The intro stage alone had me impressed and ready for more. The same problems from BMZ1 are still there, but I'd say they've been improved from serious problems to minor annoyances. It's still an easy game so far, I haven't died once yet, but I've had a few close calls and I'm rarely at full health for long periods. The max level shot in topdown stages is still kinda OP, but it no longer eviscerates bosses, and losing my weapon by getting hit is a lot more frequent, and it shrinks down to a peashooter if you fire it too much in a short time, forcing you to either give it time to cooldown or reset it with successful blast counters. Blast counters are the savior of the topdown stages IMO, the counter mechanic adds a lot of engagement to dealing with enemies, and the attacks themselves are really fast and impactful and make combat more dynamic. You can also favorite any two weapons or subweapons to give yourself more options without needing to pause the action and change equipment (this goes for the sideview mode as well).

Quote:
I had a similar experience with Curse of the Moon. Decent enough homage to the 8-bit CV's, but doesn't really feel all that exciting. Maybe there was a similar jump in quality with Curse 2 like what happened with Zero 2?

My experience with Curse of the Moon was that I played it and said "OMG IT'S MORE CASTLEVANIA 3!!" and then I devoured everything it had to offer and 100%'d it. But then whenever I tried to go back and replay it, I found myself thinking "I should just play Castlevania 3 instead." So you could say I have mixed feelings about it. Was majorly disappointed by Ritual of the Night and wasn't overly impressed by the trailer for Curse of the Moon 2, and so while I AM interested in Curse of the Moon 2, it is not at the top of my to-play list.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:27 am 


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Kino wrote:
trap15 wrote:
It does seem like most of Nazca came out of the original R-Type team, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine that through-line, I think.


Nah, most of them were later hires from 1990 onwards. Only guys that had their roots in R-Type were Akio and Kinte (I guess Kujo, too, if we're including playtesters)

Susumu debuted on Hammerin' Harry
Hiyamuta debuted on Air Duel
Meeher debuted on Undercover Cops
Kozo debuted on Hook
Hamada debuted on Ninja Baseball Bat Man
Andy debuted on Air Duel
Most of the NTM team debuted on Major Title 2, couple possibly debuted on Hook

Great list, thanks for the information!
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:22 am 


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Volteccer_Jack wrote:
Blaster Master Zero 2 is sooooo much better than the first game, or the original for that matter. Glad that I gave it a chance. Top-down segments are still slow and a bit clunky, but the blast counter helps a lot, as does the fact that enemies pose a real threat now. Hoping for more side view boss fights since they are the highlight so far.


For sure. Blaster Master is a series I don't care much for but I always felt could potentially be very good. BMZ2 kinda feels like the first game to really actually tap into that.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:28 am 


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Rastan78 wrote:
I had a similar experience with Curse of the Moon. Decent enough homage to the 8-bit CV's, but doesn't really feel all that exciting. Maybe there was a similar jump in quality with Curse 2 like what happened with Zero 2?

Sima Tuna wrote:
Yeah, I played that one on a sale and still felt like it wasn't great. The easy mode was pathetic but the normal difficulty felt rough and kinda jank. I mean, jank compared to CV1 and CV3.


Did you guys play any of the solo run variations of Normal mode?
Nightmare mode is kinda a joke, and a misnomer, it's mostly just the same game with all characters unlocked and a different final stage.

Playing normal mode through as only Zangetsu is by far the most fun aspect to COTM1. If you kill all your partners instead of teaming up with them, you get a set of much more fun powers that don't require character switching. And if you just leave them behind instead you never get any upgrades at all, and need to make it through the entire game using only your ninja gaiden'esque ranged stabbing knife.
Game still isn't very challenging, but it's a ton more fun to play that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:03 am 


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Gettin BACK IN TEH GROOVE Image Gonna get that OGST up before something distracts me. You know I got lured into the Thunder Dragon WIN BIG TEN MIL CHALLENGE, of all fuckin things! :o Goofiest helicopter! Bangingest tunes! Bombingest BOMBAs! Temptation abounds nowadays Image

My lord! These hops are unequivocally fuckin bussin! Image Image Image
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As noted above, you absolutely don't need to be this mortally close/late to spoof KAZEKIRI. It just looks+feels rad, and is reassuring to know! Input response is sharp, like brade of ninja! But pre-emptive movement is preferable!

Mogura-san WILL try to jam a yari up your hellnoplace Image Image
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I never did nail down whether there is a cooldown on heavy-type spawning. I'm pretty sure there is though, cuz I'm searching muh brainmeats and can't recall seeing duplicate Monk/Ryuichi ever. Most definitely paired M/R, but as outlined a few posts up, that ain't shit. Bunnyhop over to neutralise both, jogging on while SHADOW MURDER SQUAD demolishes both, boof!

Shadow Murder Team Wa Muteki Da! Image
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Coming back from Super Contra, a game whose spawns will trample you into the floor if you sleep on 'em, it's especially apparent how elegant Irem were here. Easy to imagine a total clusterfuck, with heavies spawning all over the shop, the CPU spluttering, all kinda bad Euroshump shit. Instead, in classic STG mode, they paired limited heavies with functionally unlimited zako - an uneven pressure that continually tests player control without resorting to brute gridlock. (it also yields a killer battlefield aesthetic; lowly zako shredded and replaced so furiously, they eventually stop registering as individual units, with bad bastards regularly charging in to repel your impetuous Last Ninja)

Even st6.2's HELL BULLDOZER - a simultaneous RyuichiV2+Ghost spawn, forming an unjumpable wall of razor death - relies on all of two enemies, and can be elegantly toppled with a deft baiting hop (not a deft superjump, they'll split you from balls to brain Image)
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:01 pm 



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So if I wanted to play Guevara, Ikari and Ikari 2, is the SNK 40th collection (currently on sale) any good? Or should I go with the Hamster ones? Then there were the ps3 mini releases... It seems like the SNK collection has save states and all those modern convenience features, along with extra console ports of games. But I've heard rumblings of emulation problems. I assume the Hamster stuff runs the best. I do find ACA's lack of proper save states a little annoying.

Spoiler: show
I did see the comment from BIL, about having a problem with his gun jamming in one of the run and gun games. ;p


I have tried to search "the mainstream" for reviews/opinions on arcade games and arcade game collections, but I am inevitably disappointed by the low quality of the coverage.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:20 am 


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I actually have SNK40th, strictly for the best SNK topdown army man game ever SEARCH AND RESCUE - a hellish battle for TEH FACTS - and there are some other treasures on there, like Battle Field, Bermuda Triangle and Prehistoric Isle.

Suffice to say I'll rebuy them all on ACA if/when they appear. Everything else - Ikari, Dogosoken, Guevara, TANK, Psycho Soldier and ASO - is preferable on ACA. I enjoy playing arcade games for one-life survival clears. I can't enjoy if if I'm constantly watching for the friggin joystick to lock up. That sounds especially nightmarish for Dogo, where you're regularly batting away shitstorms of flak.

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^ NONE OF THESE ARE GOOD TIMES FOR YOUR CONTROLLER TO SHIT ITS PANTS (■`W´■)

To be charitable, the dpad seems mercifully exempt from the random freezes - so the single-stick STGs like ASO and Prehistoric Isle are tolerable. I'd still go with ACA for peace of mind. God knows what else Digital Eclipse's mess of duck tape and bluetack can do.

>Check out this quality! :shock: :evil:

SAR is so goddamn good I've no regrets, even with the LS-30 controls technically being broken (you've got to manually hold aim via right stick... otherwise your dude will just aim wherever he's moving). I asked about a patch and was told that at a couple years old, the collection was now unfathomably ancient and would never be fixed. :lol:

Athena, Ikari III and POW are all varying degrees of bad, and I wish I could prisoner-exchange their ACA versions for SAR, Battle Field and Bermuda Triangle. 3; Although Athena did teach me that even cheap, digital purchases bring shame upon a proud Hard Gayming house! Worst game I've bought in fifteen years - and the cheapest too!
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:56 am 



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Credit fed some Senjo no Okami II on the capcom collection. I used to love playing the ps2 port. But I guess that was the USA version and this is the japanese. Either way, top quality run and gun action. Very short game, but it's lean and mean! My only disappointment was reaching the "final stage" and realizing it's just a boss fight. Vehicle sections could have been a little longer too, since the vehicles are so fun.

Tried out some Strider as well, but I couldn't get into it. Same as years ago. Something about the original game doesn't gel with me. I prefer Strider 2, jank as it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:03 am 


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Sima Tuna wrote:
Credit fed some Senjo no Okami II on the capcom collection. I used to love playing the ps2 port. But I guess that was the USA version and this is the japanese. Either way, top quality run and gun action. Very short game, but it's lean and mean! My only disappointment was reaching the "final stage" and realizing it's just a boss fight. Vehicle sections could have been a little longer too, since the vehicles are so fun.


Have you played the MD version's Original Mode? Secretly one of the best coinop ARPGs ever - eight brand-new stages with a compulsive treasure-hunting element, but best believe the emphasis remains bussin. Image Bangin' tunes too! Even has a hidden XTREME difficulty, recently given some first-rate coverage by kitten. Image

Quote:
Tried out some Strider as well, but I couldn't get into it. Same as years ago. Something about the original game doesn't gel with me. I prefer Strider 2, jank as it is.


Strider 2 does suffer from dog-eared PS1 polys, and its checkpoints lose the original's flawless cinema - but where acrobatic ninja action is concerned, it's ace. Beyond its furious slashing and wildly inventive grappling, the original is a reserved, methodical game - jumps are set in stone ala Makaimura, and the Saucers do more shredding than Hiryu himself. S2 is tempered to perfection - I particularly like the air control, where normal jumps bend easy, running jumps are a bit trickier, and full-blast sprinting double somersaults call for the aerial command barrage, which doubles as an airbrake. The free enemy overlap was a great idea too, letting you really bulldog onto hard targets while ghosting around their vicious reprisals.

A great ninja sidescroller on suboptimal hardware - I bet a Naomi version would've enjoyed total cult acclaim. I'm not normally big on "HD remasters," but this is a game that could legitimately use one, just to smooth out the tatty presentation; it was always totally at odds with the first game's world-leading artistry. The sprites and character designs, OTOH, were and are great. :cool:

Image

^ via BlackZero24

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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:52 pm 


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I almost wondered if Nintendo's Zelda Game and Watch was actually a reskinned Ninja Spirit handheld since it doesn't play much like Zelda and has a spear enemy similar to the one in Ninja Spirit.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:55 pm 


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Haha. :mrgreen: I can almost see it, 1989 being right after Saigo's release. Can't recall many other sidescrollers offhand where ambush via crawlspace figures quite so heavily.

That's oldschool Nippon for ya Image
Spoiler: show
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I wonder if Saigo's Earth Ninja had some cultural template, like a lot of its other content. Saigo's part of the same tradition as Mr. Goemon, Genpei Toumaden and Kiki Kaikai. Ashura, Hitodama, Hanzo... the game starts at a Buddha statue, and ends in front of a monstrous Sokushinbutsu, the killer Monks furthering that theme. Execrable as the Ninja Pit is in game design terms, I like it as a corrupt Samsara; spewing back up the innumerable foes you've shredded along the way, all that staggering carnage for naught while the thing leagues below survives. Tsukikage himself plausibly reflects Shirokami, while the Ghosts of Fugitive Warriors are ghoulish takes on their namesake.

(the pit being overlooked by a big dong goes great with the Samsara interpretation :cool:)

Could see mole dude being inspired by the oldschool Kamui Den manga/anime, if nothing else.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:17 pm 



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BIL wrote:
Sima Tuna wrote:
Credit fed some Senjo no Okami II on the capcom collection. I used to love playing the ps2 port. But I guess that was the USA version and this is the japanese. Either way, top quality run and gun action. Very short game, but it's lean and mean! My only disappointment was reaching the "final stage" and realizing it's just a boss fight. Vehicle sections could have been a little longer too, since the vehicles are so fun.


Have you played the MD version's Original Mode? Secretly one of the best coinop ARPGs ever - eight brand-new stages with a compulsive treasure-hunting element, but best believe the emphasis remains bussin. Image Bangin' tunes too! Even has a hidden XTREME difficulty, recently given some first-rate coverage by kitten. Image


I basically didn't play arcade games until the ps2 era, and never had a mega drive or master system. So if it wasn't on one of the ps2 compilation discs, I didn't get to experience it. :) Thank god for ACA.

Speaking of games I didn't get to experience as a kid, I picked up the contra collection a month or two ago when it was on sale. I've been casually trying to play it here and there. What is the general consensus on the series quality? I was a Metal Slug kid (via the ps2 collection and arcade emulation.) My super scrub first impression is hard corps kicks ass and I love it the most. Browny <3

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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:41 am 


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People on this forum adore the Contra series. I'm pretty sure there was a time where the classic Spirits vs. The Hard Corps discussion came up on a weekly, if not daily, basis. Those two and Famicom Contra obviously get the most attention, but Game Boy Contra is also surprisingly good, and even the arcade versions of the original and Super Contra aren't half bad on their own terms.

On an unrelated note, any particular reason you aren't just using non-commercial emulators for these older titles? Nothing wrong with supporting quality re-releases, of course, but there's no shame in being like BIL and enjoying both routes .
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:57 pm 


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Sima Tuna wrote:
I basically didn't play arcade games until the ps2 era, and never had a mega drive or master system. So if it wasn't on one of the ps2 compilation discs, I didn't get to experience it. :) Thank god for ACA.


I was pretty much the same - always had a fondness for AC-styled stuff, but arcades weren't a thing where I grew up (consoles barely were, tbh). It wasn't until Gradius V that I finally appreciated the value of all killer, no filler single credit design. (the hardass announcer is my godfather, I only cleared it to earn his booming approval Image) At that point I realised I had a shit-ton of catching up to do, on AC and console alike. Still do. Image

Quote:
Speaking of games I didn't get to experience as a kid, I picked up the contra collection a month or two ago when it was on sale. I've been casually trying to play it here and there. What is the general consensus on the series quality? I was a Metal Slug kid (via the ps2 collection and arcade emulation.) My super scrub first impression is hard corps kicks ass and I love it the most. Browny <3


Errehbody love Contra, p.much. Image My old BFF Drum used to say Midnight Resistance was better, I miss him. 3; As far as extended series go, it's one of scrolling action's most foundational. The FC port is still an excellent starting point, got a rare balance of accessibility and quality. (the NES revision is great too, but makes an already mild game slightly easier - go with FC, the collection has both)

WelshMegalodon wrote:
On an unrelated note, any particular reason you aren't just using non-commercial emulators for these older titles? Nothing wrong with supporting quality re-releases, of course, but there's no shame in being like BIL and enjoying both routes .


My attitude's always been try before you buy. :mrgreen: Wouldn't have 1/nth of the collection I do if not for emulator tryouts.

Lately I've done most of my gaming via M2 and Hamster. I wanted to nail down a few decent clears, and they've racked up a huge library of killer home releases; consistently the most accurate, frequently the only (I was thiiiis close to giving in and picking up MD Double Dragon II :shock:). I've never been much of a PC gamer, and tbh I like the standardisation that comes with consoles. Makes it easier to smack down the falsificare brigade. ;3
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