The Problem with Perikles

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

This mentality would simply allow people to cheat freely on this forum unless they were blatantly obvious and goofy about it.
A live stream showing a high-level of competence would be sufficient, for example: 2-alling a difficult shmup or clearing TatsOu is what most people would be satisfied with, from what I've heard.

The mentality only applies to this specific case (as in - shmups), since we have no real way to determine if something is legit. The closest we can come to it is a live run, but even that won't clear up past cases, rather simply prove skill.

That's why it becomes more a matter of trust and reputation than actually getting proof.

Compare to a typical accusation case, where people'd examine provided runs in detail in order to find cheating of any kind - something which we can't reliably do here since apparently even INP files aren't true confirmation.

Trying to paint it as anything other than a request for proof of skill is wack. (And it's being painted as a request for proof of legitimacy by the OP, with some shades of threat. I give props to other people like Plasmo who just want to see the man play.)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Suppose he comes over here - what could he possibly say to dispel the accusations? What could he possibly do?

Even if he does live demonstrations, it proves nothing for old runs. Even if he explains his methods, they'll still be called bullshit.

Pretty much this. It's pretty rare to actually see something played so unusually as to be blatantly obviously cheated such as the various tool-assisted "longplays" of Cave shmups, or the infamous VixyNyan debacle, but even still, the supposed "evidence" of cheating presented here is pretty slim pickings.

I know when I first got into shmups I found it unbelievable that anyone could pull off a 2-ALL clear of anything, let alone get good enough to eventually learn to do multiple 2-ALL Ura clears of any Cave shmup, but I've gotten better and 2-ALL'd a few arcade games and seen people play live. I easily believe now that someone can get good at such a wide variety of games and the more my skill improves the more stuff I used to see as bullshit dodging is pretty mundane stuff. Nothing's impossible and it's not unthinkable that Perikles is just good at learning a wide number of games.

And even if he does play well live as a way to prove himself, I don't seriously believe that it would suddenly dispel all the claims from his detractors that some of his older runs were cheated. What if he tries to play live as a demonstration and simply has a bad day and doesn't play very well? I know I've had that happen to me before; would that mean he's suddenly branded a cheater? It almost feels like Perikles is being put in an unwinnable situation here.

[Moglar5k]

Compare to a typical accusation case, where people'd examine provided runs in detail in order to find cheating of any kind - something which we can't reliably do here since apparently even INP files aren't true confirmation.

INP's can sometimes confirm cheating but cannot confirm innocence, but no INP's from perikles exist publically anymore (the INP situation is the most suspicious part of this case in my opinion).

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

INP's can sometimes confirm cheating but cannot confirm innocence, but no INP's from perikles exist publically anymore (the INP situation is the most suspicious part of this case in my opinion).

This much is true, yes. Recording INPs for future runs would probably be a wise move for Perikles, no matter what the outcome of this particular case is.

[Plasmo]

[repost from last page as I feel it would get buried there]

Thanks for all the good contributions everyone!

I share the sentiment that without Perikles showing up everything has now been said pretty much. Both sides were able to express their thoughts.

This is an important topic because suspicions have been around for years now and it’s great to see that I’m not only seeing ghosts and that other people also think that there might be something dubious going on. However, not a single person I have talked to outright calls Perikles a definitive cheater. The evidence presented here is all there is for now. He could be for real but maybe not. We will never know. If Perikles, however, actually cares about this topic, he can easily make all of us doubters look like massive fools. A single stream or a proper recording with an external camera would fully suffice. We really don’t need much.

Worst case is that he faked one or more of his runs. This would be annoying on the one hand but let’s please not forget that in the end it’s just cheating at videogames on an anonymous internet forum. So what? Who really cares about that? His contributions as a member of this forum will be in no way affected by this. This is not and never has been a personal thing.

People (and that’s including me) have voiced stronger opinions in private settings but this public debate is not about any personal gut feeling you might have. It doesn’t matter if I am personally convinced that he’s a cheater. In this thread, it is about facts only and those have all been brought together by the OP.

After reading through all the posts I realize that the evidence is maybe too thin indeed. It’s not convincing enough for many. This is in no means enough to warrant the deletion of any of his scores. And yet I do think that this topic is very necessary. It’s a discussion we had to have at one point. Being suspected of cheating can also be taken as a compliment. I got called a cheater more than once and always thought it was quite funny. It’s basically telling you that you’re too good to be true.

If anything, this topic has shown to me how mature this forum is. This is a highly controversial topic and not a single post has really violated the boundaries of a civil discussion. I’m fine with heated replies as long as you respect each other.

This will also be my last contribution to this topic. If Perikles shows up we can perhaps continue. Plasmo over and out.

[chum]

I dunno why the Defense Force keeps making stuff up...
It is obvious that Perikles doesn't need to redo a clear live or anything like that. I've already mentioned this. Nobody needs him to do that.

All he needs to do is show himself playing. An experienced player can easily tell if his reflexes are as sharp and his movements as refined. It would be very easy to see if his playing looks similar if he just shows himself playing. Similar is good enough. He could play absolutely anything as long as it's difficult (Same Same Same would be a good start) and he has a past video of it. I reiterate: nobody is asking for anything unreasonable, difficult, or something we're not gonna be happy with anyway or whatever. Those claims are unsubstantiated and in bad faith. These same things have happened with Touhou Players who only did a stream showing themself playing. Without even getting close to replicating what it is they were first called out for, the community decided that the call out was an error after seeing streams. Streams where the player never got close to the desired result. People then live and forget. People are very lax about this and would rather believe the more positive thing (no cheating occured) than the more negative one. The only reason I'm considering the more negative one is because I find it very very difficult to swallow that some of these runs really happened due to his lack of memorization and strategies. If Perikles shows that there is even a small chance that hes for real then I bet you almost everyone will belive it; I certainly will. Maybe you can't please everyone, I certainly wouldn't want a "Jagten" situation, but you can't say that Perikles didnt have anything to do with this matter of a reputation damaging thread like this occuring to begin with. Just read the OP and it's pretty clear Perikles could've been taking this issue a bit more seriously before these things are publicized. I honestly don't see this perspective of this being some kind of permanent issue that Perikles is helpless in combatting, there's also nothing really unreasonable about people's suspicions. Nobody else I've talked to who finds this suspicious seems to be unreasonable about it whatsoever. These suspicions have also been pretty open for years, but without proof, noone ever bothered to do some public thing about it until now. I'm not surprised by how this thread went down at all, without proof lots of people will be unhappy that a thread like this gets made, I totally get that. I get it but people doubting Perikles aren't unreasonable, and everyone I've talked to wishes for Perikles to be legit. If he reads this thread and gets offended I honestly would find that suspicious as well because anyone who plays the same difficult game hes done notices that the runs are never normal.

Only an idiot would demand another Tatsujin Ou 2-all or whatever. It's not needed to see if he's legit, it's so much simpler than that, all I need to see if he's legit or not is see him play, and this is definitely true for Plasmo as well. If Perikles can't even do this then he should have a pretty good explanation for it, like can't stream because internet is too bad or something. The defense force made up reasoning that "we wouldn't accept his stream anyway" isn't it.

Should this discussion not be happening on shmups forum? Should it get buried in discords or people just talk about it privately or on streams? Honestly I don't see the defense force reasoning on this either. If people keep talking about it without Perikles ever clearing it up, and let's pressume that Perikles did not cheat, we would be spreading some very toxic opinions around and random people / less experienced players who really can't tell the difference between a Perikles Same run and a different Same run all react in really random ways; some might believe the more experienced players suspicions and base their opinion on that, some might believe that nobody would ever cheat because it's pointless, some might believe that Perikles in particular couldn't have done it due to his apparent good nature, etc. But at the end of the day all of these people hear about it and make up opinions on something which nobody except Perikles knows the truth about. I hate gossip by its very nature and would rather just see the situation get resolved than people being so uncertain about it. Wouldn't it be nice of this got resolved?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Only an idiot would demand another Tatsujin Ou 2-all or whatever. It's not needed to see if he's legit, it's so much simpler than that, all I need to see if he's legit or not is see him play

If someone really wanted to, they could potentially pre-record a run and then stream it in such a way that makes it look like it's played live as a means of providing inauthentic validation. In a digital era where fakery is relatively easy to do, it is very dangerous to assume that it is impossible to setup a stream in such a way that a determined cheater would go undetected. This is the same reason I'm always extremely skeptical about demanding INPs for everything; you can't assume with 100% certainly they're legitimate because anyone determined enough will find a way to cheat. With this kind of forum and score submissions there's always going to be an inherent element of trust involved and an acknowledgement that if someone really wants to post a fake score, they'll find a way to do it.

As others have said, the only thing that can't actually be faked is playing it live and in person in front of others. You can't fake that unless somehow you setup a recording ahead of time and made it look like you were playing live, and that would be a lot easier to detect in-person by the witness playing a credit before and after, verifying that the person doesn't have some video playing or something. This is all assuming worst case scenarios of course for someone determined to cheat. Of course, for the most part, there's no reason to suspect people streaming games live of cheating as you can attempt to do stuff like request they play with a specific shot type or weapon combination at the time that they're streaming if you're really worried they're going to attempt to cheat, and they'd have to have been crazy overprepared to beat that system such as recording multiple runs in advance.

And any current validation you receive when checking for skill doesn't technically mean the person hasn't posted cheated runs in the past. It certainly means they're far more believable, but a current display of skill cannot 100% dispel all doubt about a past run. I'm just talking in general here in terms of run validation.

but you can't say that Perikles didnt have anything to do with this matter of a reputation damaging thread like this occuring to begin with

Hoo, boy. If we grant Perikles the well-deserved benefit of the doubt that he's innocent, that is some major victim blaming going on here. Has it occurred to you to check Perikles' posting history? He sometimes doesn't login or post for weeks at a time. It's really early to suggest that somehow Perikles is guilty because he hasn't responded when he may simply not have visited the forum in a while. Remember that this is only the 3rd day since the thread was created.

[chum]

You forgot to read the OP, this has nothing to do with Perikles not posting often. Read the OP again. Here's an excerpt:

Unfortunately, his reply, while polite, was mostly disinterest in providing any evidence and a request to just quietly remove every score. When pressed further, his next and final response was uncharacteristically typo-riddled and somewhat hostile (and eerily reminiscent of the bit about typical cheater responses at the end of the DOOM video, although still not insulting to me or anyone here), and he said he would not try to explain himself and did not wish to discuss the issue further.

nically mean the person hasn't posted cheated runs in the past. It certainly means they're far more believable, but a current display of skill cannot 100% dispel all doubt about a past run. I'm just talking in general here in terms of run validation..

The default should always be good faith. Perikles has videos, so if I can see that his skill is real I see no reason to doubt his videos. If the videos are still fake at that point it's not like anyone will ever know, and I'd just move on and assume theyre real. I can't speak for everyone else, though.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I read the OP. The part you've quoted is one person's account of a series of private messages. Taken at face value it certainly looks very bad indeed, but without actually seeing the messages I hesitate to make any judgements based on them. NTSC-J's a great poster on the forum and I certainly don't think they're lying about the message; rather I'm worried (or hoping) there's some kind of potential misunderstanding going on here, like Perikles overreacting to the suggestion that he cheated with a "fine, then delete all my scores if you don't trust me" sort of thing due to feeling offended rather than an "oops delete them, you caught me" sort of thing.

Anyways, that's why I'm more concerned about the actual content of the videos themselves, which feel very lacking as far as definitive proof of cheating goes.

[chum]

That's fair, It's always a good idea to take OPs account of what occurred with a grain of salt, but even if we do not count his subjective additions as meaningful (similar to DOOM video, suddenly typos, or whatever) we do know that a correspondence has happened and that Perikles has been dismissive, assuming that OP is overall telling the truth. That is mainly what I was referring to with my comment that Perikles is not blameless; OP has a job to do on this forum, if he's not only unable to resolve the situation with Perikles, but Perikles is also dismissive about it, I think it is fair game to make a thread and ask for input, even if some missteps were made (such as the list of clips which is only undermining the argument). I am not "victim blaming" in the sense that you accused me because I have never once said anything about Perikles activity. If he's not active then that's that and there's nothing we can do about it.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

That is mainly what I was referring to with my comment that Perikles is not blameless; OP has a job to do on this forum, if he's not only unable to resolve the situation with Perikles, but Perikles is also dismissive about it, I think it is fair game to make a thread and ask for input, even if some missteps were made (such as the list of clips which is only undermining the argument).

That's a fair point. Sorry, I haven't focused too much on the potential content of the private messages and rather focused on the videos themselves, so I didn't have them in mind and misunderstood what you were talking about when you said Perikles holds some responsibility for this thread. I'm hoping that if was intending to be dismissive it's because he's not taking the cheating claims seriously or doesn't care about them and not because he's trying to avoid addressing them, which is what this thread is hoping to do. While it's always unfortunate to see anyone accused of potentially cheating, I'll admit it's nicer to see these accusations presented openly where Perikles can choose to respond to them as opposed to only seeing them floated as rumours in private where he might not be aware of how much he's being discussed.

[Xyga]

Should this discussion not be happening on shmups forum? Should it get buried in discords or people just talk about it privately or on streams? Honestly I don't see the defense force reasoning on this either.

No, what's fucked up is using this forum for, I quote without showing the author so we can preserve 'correctness':



What I mean is; if deciding if Perikles is guilty or innocent depends on a popularity contest, then they go find the useful 'masses' elsewhere, campaign on twitter or whatever, but not HERE a community him and his buddies turned their backs on years ago, they no longer have the legitimacy to expect it is fine to use this forum for doing their dirty job, we are not an emergency reserve army.
And anyway the arguments are indeed a bit too thin, so that fired back on them, karma boomerang I guess ?

Just making clear I'm not trying to blindly defend here, I'm absolutely not 100% certain Perikles is clean but definitely haven't seen enough compelling proof he's a fraud either, and I've stated it I'm not a scoring/e-sport aficionado as well so the case probably doesn't hold as much importance for me than it does for others.

But where I lost it is when I've seen the indeed rather malicious side of this thread despite the claims of the accusers.

So here we have a handful of performance-focused players who years ago pied-pipered the bulk of the upliftting and players-motivating quality shmup-talk away from here, barely visiting and sharing with us anymore, think because in their closed social media circle their highnesses's belief is that some player is a fiend, everyone else outside should share that belief...

EDIT: also whoever made that short compilation video on Perikles is a POS. people who do that sort of stuff have no balls.

I think those guys have taken away enough from this place, look, what's left here is no longer the core of the international english-speaking STG world nor 'scoring arena', it is only a retrogaming community with of course still a reasonable focus on shmups, and a strong hardware forum, unpretentiously continuing to live its little life on the ruins/legacy of a more glorious era, with much less great players presence than in the past, and more casuals.
Maybe if some hadn't left to hide in social media shadows, this forum would shine brighter today ? and their greater, wiser eceleb name's opinions would have been trusted more and received with less perplexity ? dunno, guess we will never know.

But it was incredibly preposterous to imagine the 'masses' here would easily follow their will and ostracize one of their valued members without solid-enough proof, even if the proof itself is reasoning, it has to be built around a very-fucking-solidly documented demonstration.
When the plaintiffs can't present that, then defending is not white-knighting, nor emotion, nor a meme, it is just applying elementary principles of justice, you just don't publicly judge and condemn someone on suspicious behaviour only.

I bet the regulars here can legitimately handle this including talking with Perikles himself if he will, hopefully, but without the outsiders coming from social media who have already decided he's guilty and sealed his fate.
Which community is more impartial? IDGAF because this thread was posted fucking HERE, and people who have an account but have been ignoring this forum's life for years can keep their opinion at their real own place; twatter/discord/irc obscurity whatever.

[Squire Grooktook]

>Re "why doesn't Perikles come in and defend himself? Why not just be rational?"

Has it ever occurred to you all that - as a guy who spends all his time playing and documenting obscure 90's video games while on disability or whatever - that even if innocent Perikles (no offense, I love the guy) might just be a little tiny bit weird?

Maybe, just maybe, rationality has nothing to do with it and that the public accusation over something he obsessively devoted years to has deeply, deeply upset him. Maybe, just maybe, that even if innocent his "typo ridden response" was a result of being genuinely hurt by the accusation itself.

Maybe, just maybe, we've already lost him.

[Plasmo]

@Xyga
Uh, I honestly thought I would be done with this. But just to clear things up: that "winning the masses" comment was me. I don't see how building up a convincing argument is wrong in any way? And if an argument is too weak, then it probably means you are either wrong or that there is just not enough evidence for your accusations. But this is for others to decide! I'm completely open-minded on this. That's what this topic is for. To get out of the private discords and into the public.

The videos are all we have at the moment. In a way the situation is even more difficult than the one from that DOOM video. The DOOM scene at least has frame-by-frame inputs to analyze. We only have movements on a video.

I don't think you are very interested in an honest investigation. You seem to jump in and defend Perikles without looking at the actual arguments presented here. Admittedly, understanding why some of his routes look so suspicous is not the easiest task. It also takes a considerable amount of experience, which doesn't help the situation either. But here's my challenge to you: Try to use Perikles' routes and learn Same Same Same this way!

People are playing the game for Calice Cup at the moment, so this challenge is open to all of you! Try to approach it as unbiased as possible and give it a try. Then tell us about your experience here!

This is not definitive proof that Perikles has cheated. There is no definitive proof and noone ever said that there is. But there are so many small things that giving voice to your doubts is completely justified in my opinion.

[chum]

Should this discussion not be happening on shmups forum? Should it get buried in discords or people just talk about it privately or on streams? Honestly I don't see the defense force reasoning on this either.

No, what's fucked up is using this forum for, I quote without showing the author so we can preserve 'correctness':



What I mean is; if deciding if Perikles is guilty or innocent depends on a popularity contest, then they go find the useful 'masses' elsewhere, campaign on twitter or whatever, but not HERE a community him and his buddies turned their backs on years ago, they no longer have the legitimacy to expect it is fine to use this forum for doing their dirty job, we are not an emergency reserve army.
And anyway the arguments are indeed a bit too thin, so that fired back on them, karma boomerang I guess ?

Just making clear I'm not trying to blindly defend here, I'm absolutely not 100% certain Perikles is clean but definitely haven't seen enough compelling proof he's a fraud either, and I've stated it I'm not a scoring/e-sport aficionado as well so the case probably doesn't hold as much importance for me than it does for others.

But where I lost it is when I've seen the indeed rather malicious side of this thread despite the claims of the accusers.

So here we have a handful of performance-focused players who years ago pied-pipered the bulk of the upliftting and players-motivating quality shmup-talk away from here, barely visiting and sharing with us anymore, think because in their closed social media circle their highnesses's belief is that some player is a fiend, everyone else outside should share that belief...

EDIT: also whoever made that short compilation video on Perikles is a POS. people who do that sort of stuff have no balls.

I think those guys have taken away enough from this place, look, what's left here is no longer the core of the international english-speaking STG world nor 'scoring arena', it is only a retrogaming community with of course still a reasonable focus on shmups, and a strong hardware forum, unpretentiously continuing to live its little life on the ruins/legacy of a more glorious era, with much less great players presence than in the past, and more casuals.
Maybe if some hadn't left to hide in social media shadows, this forum would shine brighter today ? and their greater, wiser eceleb name's opinions would have been trusted more and received with less perplexity ? dunno, guess we will never know.

But it was incredibly preposterous to imagine the 'masses' here would easily follow their will and ostracize one of their valued members without solid-enough proof, even if the proof itself is reasoning, it has to be built around a very-fucking-solidly documented demonstration.
When the plaintiffs can't present that, then defending is not white-knighting, nor emotion, nor a meme, it is just applying elementary principles of justice, you just don't publicly judge and condemn someone on suspicious behaviour only.

I bet the regulars here can legitimately handle this including talking with Perikles himself if he will, hopefully, but without the outsiders coming from social media who have already decided he's guilty and sealed his fate.
Which community is more impartial? IDGAF because this thread was posted fucking HERE, and people who have an account but have been ignoring this forum's life for years can keep their opinion at their real own place; twatter/discord/irc obscurity whatever.

I think I'm getting you on this.

I didn't really get a good look at the screenshot (didn't save it and it disappeared in the blink of an eye) but it doesn't resonate with me at all. Sometimes people won't be on their best behaviour... if anything it is self sabotage to share such PMs, if the goal is to somehow ruin Perikles. The guy who shared it might not give a shit about any of this. I can't relate to the "winning the masses" comment at all because I have literally no idea how to manipulate people or whatever. Maybe I'm idealistic but the PM content just probably looked more edgy than intended because privacy is different from publicity, idk. I didn't get to read more than a few lines anyway. I really hope there's no "dirty job" and the self sabotage in question is just trying to swing the masses opinions on even more people, maybe? Hell if I know, and I don't care to be honest, I just want to know the truth about Perikles videos. I personally have not had any involvement or seen any malicious discussions happen about Perikles. In fact if I wasn't playing in Calice Cup I prboably would've stayed out of this thread because my doubt of Perikles was resurrected by me playing S!S!S! and how utterly unhelpful and nonsensical his video was. I honestly, really don't know what to make of it, but I can tell you, completely truthfully, that none of the little talks I've had about his gameplay had ANYTHING to do with him or trying to frame him or convince masses or anything like that. just analyzing strange and newbie things hes doing in that run, lack of strategies, lack of common sense, etc.

I'd just like to say that I in no way condone any kind of malicious behaviour about this if this exists. Any good sane person just wants to know the TRUTH, not see shit burn. And honestly I have faith that everyone I've talked to about this is interested in the truth and not in hurting anyone. One of the two people in that screenshot was unstable and nobody listens to them anyway (I didn't even bother to look at it beyond the username). Hardly newsworthy then, unless the content is different than what I'm expecting.

I'm still not sure who you mean "those guys" are though. I've never intended to take anything away from this forum, I've just always struggle to resonate with this community partly because of the complete dismissal of Touhou which is what I've been playing this whole time and still am. The touhou community happens to be, mostly, even worse and is even harder to resonate with. It has never been my intention to take anything away from this website though Maybe you're not referring to me? Even then I struggle to think who it could be except some 4channer.

I think part of the defense is absolutely white knighting due to not adding anything meaningful but rather doing nonsense bad faith reads on the accusers which has aboslutely nothing to do with reality, this only makes the discussion more confusing and hostile. The previous pages are brimming with these idiotic comments that doesn't even try to understand where the doubt is coming from and is assuming that all of us are retards.

And again I 'd like to stress, I have nto decided that Perikles is guilty, I am not trying to appeal to the masses (if anything I am pretty dismissive of the masses in this discussion...) I am doubting him but I am not confident at all. I would be surprised if some of these videos were real, but life is full of surprises. I've been surprised many times before in my life. It happens. I would rather be surprised than have my doubts confirmed real in this case

>Re "why doesn't Perikles come in and defend himself? Why not just be rational?"

Has it ever occurred to you all that - as a guy who spends all his time playing and documenting obscure 90's video games while on disability or whatever - that even if innocent Perikles (no offense, I love the guy) might just be a little tiny bit weird?

Maybe, just maybe, rationality has nothing to do with it and that the public accusation over something he obsessively devoted years to has deeply, deeply upset him. Maybe, just maybe, that even if innocent his "typo ridden response" was a result of being genuinely hurt by the accusation itself.

Maybe, just maybe, we've already lost him.

I am good at understanding others, so of course I have already considered all of these things. However, I don't actually know anything about Perikles, so I can't say that I understand him at all, which is why there's only so much I can speculate about. I don't think getting hurt over it is very likely unless NTSC-J was exceptionally rude, because I really, REALLY don't see how Perikles could look at some of his own videos and think that they look normal whatsoever. I also don't think there's any point in getting hurt over being asked for INPs. the whole getting hurt angle is possible but it is kind of pathetic. Understanding one another isn't a one way thing: both parties need to do it. Perikles should also understand that there is reason to doubt his videos, and losing all INPs and refusing to do anything isn't helping. That's why I think getting "hurt" and refusing to say anything because of that is totally unhelpful. Also, if we assume he's cheating after all, then it's a great excuse to disappear and never confirm anything. If anything, the "getting hurt and disappearing" angle is, to ME, more likely to be pointing towards guilt than innocence. Thankfully you're just speculating though.
Besides, maybe more people than just him are weird? Don't you think I'm weird too?

[maximo310]

I want to start off with saying that I do really like Perikles tier lists for arcade/classic shmups, as they've been a pretty handy resource for comparing game difficulty for the most part.

For most of the games he's played, it's a bit difficult to find examples that don't seem entirely realistic in execution ( the tatsujin ou example has been mentioned that it could be luck even though Id personally disagree).
However, I do know about F/A (Fighter & Attacker) as its a game I've poured a ton of time into with a number of different planes.
In his replay here: https://youtu.be/fFuZ53us1Rs?t=1887 (timestamp 31:27, you may want to slow down the playback speed as well), I noticed a really weird strategy at the beginning of the tlb fight. Even though I'm not entirely consistent at this attack, my understanding is that after you dodge the spreads from the two side planes, you want to position your plane on the far left/right side in a way so your plane can maneuver diagonally to the right/left with enough space.
The highest score replay topics with GAMSIC's Mirage 2000/ F/A-18E show a even better implementation where you point blank the right side plane as it fires its spread before executing the rest of the strategy.
However, on Perikles' replay, he decides to stay in the middle and continue point-blanking the tlb even as the tlb fires off its spread. As the spread approaches, he briefly moves down, does a quick left, then right, and somehow manages to get through without taking damage. I have personally never been able to avoid take a hit by going through the middle ( as your hitbox is this game is pretty big/even bigger for some planes), and I can't think of a reason why you would use a risker strategy at this part in the game, especially when you're at 2/5 life bars from the stage 5 boss onwards.

So I'm mainly curious to see an explanation of why he used that strategy on that boss, and if it can be executed on a consistent basis.

[Squire Grooktook]

I am good at understanding others

Apparently not if you're expecting complete rationality from a guy who might literally have no life outside of this forum.

All I see in the rest of your post is a projection of your own rationality onto someone who probably put rationality away a long time ago to better passionately focus on 90's video games.

"It's unhelpful...it's not rational...getting hurt would be pathetic...I don't see how he could think...both parties should try to understand eachother...getting hurt is unlikely..."

I don't think you understand people as much as you think you do.

To chip in to PerishedFraud's anecdote, I'm pretty sure that I would be completely soured on a community and a hobby if they did something like this to me and I was innocent. And I'm a fucking casual.

because I really, REALLY don't see how Perikles could look at some of his own videos and think that they look normal whatsoever.

Me, BIL, BareknuckleRoo, and a few others have extensively played a lot of the games he's run and we don't see anything out of the ordinary in them. In fact, they're exactly what we'd expect. Also his routes actually helped me a ton in Forgotten Worlds and and Dragon Breed, among others.

Your entire argument seems to be around Same Same Same. I don't know about that one. But I see nothing odd in the ones I actually have experience with.

[chum]

You're forgetting that Perikles has over a thousand posts and many lengthy conversations which is well enough to see some amount of rationality on his part, and that he has been accused cheating... if he's cheating then being hurt is literally just an excuse to avoid fessing up. You are the one who made a spectulative comment out of nowhere. Do you know something I don't? If not, speculative comments do not make you more empathic or understanding.

Regardless of how non-understanding you think it sounds, I truly do believe that getting "hurt" is more likely to be a strategy to run away from the problem in this case, due to the apparent likelyhood if his videos being faked.

That doesn't mean I have ruled your speculations as an impossibility. I just don't think it is likely given all the nuance of the situation which involves someone who might have cheated.

[Squire Grooktook]

You're forgetting that Perikles has over a thousand posts and many lengthy conversations which is well enough to see some amount of rationality on his part

>somebody is rational on one topic so they must be completely rational everywhere else!

Again, you do not understand people as much as you think you do if that's your logic.

You are the one who made a spectulative comment out of nowhere. Do you know something I don't?.

Human nature.

And I'd say that based on my life observances, it's the more "likely" possibility.

PS: it wasn't "out of nowhere". It was a response to a line of reason that because Perikles might have seemed paniced in his response...that is evidence that he's cheating! It's not. If you know how people react to getting fucked (especially someone weird enough to put so much time into a subject like this), it's just as much evidence for the contrary.

[chum]

Why are you being so black and white? Nobody is saying that his behaviour is evidence of cheating. That was only speculation. Frankly I don't understand how you can look at speculation, make something black and white out of it, offer your own speculation, and then when I counter-speculate you, you make my speculation out to be black and white in some way as well. Maybe you're not very rational...? This is why speculation is so confusing.

No, I was never saying that any of my thoughts were the objective truth or anything like that. I saw you speculating and thought I would speak to you on your own terms by speculating as well.

I have never said that Perikles is "completely rational". I was very clear´about my language, speaking about likelyhoods and speculating.

[Squire Grooktook]

Why are you being so black and white? Nobody is saying that his behaviour is evidence of cheating.

Except they are? There have been a multitude of posts accounting his response as evidence slanting them towards suspicion, as well as demands on what Perikles "should" do in order to clear his name.

Maybe they didn't use the word "evidence" but it's very clear from the OP that Perikles response is being used against him here.

[Squire Grooktook]

Unrelated from that line, but a short convo I had with BareKnuckleRoo that talks about the "strange dodges" and why some people who haven't played the games or who play at different levels might erroneously find them strange:

Spoiler

BareKnuckleRooToday at 12:04 PM
I'm offended by your suggestion playing shmups makes you a tiny bit weird
I'll have you know everyone I shmup with is extremely weird :V

Squire GrooktookToday at 12:06 PM

but yeah, honestly. If what I've heard is true that he's basically on disability and spends all his time on this...both his runs and his reaction make a lot more sense tbh

BareKnuckleRooToday at 12:08 PM
And you pretty much have to be an ultra weirdo to play bullet hells.
I suggested he might possibly be on disability as a potential reason he can play games so much but I have no idea what his actual situation is honestly.
But I am in full agreement with you - chances are he was legit but just got offended at the suggestion or who knows what
It's really unfortunate though cause his writing is super interesting and I find it seriously hard to believe that level of dedication is backed by fakery
not to mention most of the video evidence isn't
like that akuu gallet dodge was mundane as all hell

Squire GrooktookToday at 12:16 PM
Yeah
I think a big chunk of it is people who haven't played the games a substantial amount of time thinking something is crazier than it is.
like fucking Batsuugan Special
I blind multi-looped that game
the hitboxes are too small. You can literally flail through bullet clouds for fun in that game

BareKnuckleRooToday at 12:23 PM
The Batsugun Special one is pretty believable, I have made very stupid dodges too like that
I assumed he wanted to save both his bombs for the final boss for the damage and tried to save it there
and yeah, the hitbox is minuscule compared to Batsugun normal

Squire GrooktookToday at 12:24 PM
It's a very flail friendly game, and a very easy one too.

BareKnuckleRooToday at 12:25 PM
Maximo posted a vid link he finds suspicious, but if I were unfamiliar with the game that looks kinda how I'd attempt to flail through it too
It is pretty believable that someone who runs a wide variety of games has more skill just kinda winging it with their dodges too and has routes that are more unpolished

Squire GrooktookToday at 12:26 PM
it's all really ironic because someone in chum's crowed (2huplayer or osmething on youtube) used to make compilation videos of the hypest and craziest improv dodges in 2hu scoreplays.

BareKnuckleRooToday at 12:26 PM
Some of them might be stuck in the pro replay, always follow the optimal route mindset and are forgetting how a game can look when you learn it on your own for a first time clear
especially if you aren't watching replays

Squire GrooktookToday at 12:31 PM
yeah I said something like that earlier.

BareKnuckleRooToday at 12:31 PM
the Giga Wing no reflect almost clear with Isha on Nicovideo was frankly no help to me, I was getting to the TLB with more resources and still having trouble, I had to learn a route that probably looks stupid
There's a lot of times when realistically you can improv stuff and if someone is playing these games dedicatedly there's the real possibility he's got genuinely good improv dodging skills

Squire GrooktookToday at 12:37 PM
mind if I just copy and paste this convo into a post? I think the comments on the games and the analysis of how these scoreplayers might be looking at things is a pretty good explication.

BareKnuckleRooToday at 12:38 PM
yeah, sure

Squire GrooktookToday at 12:39 PM

[chum]

Why are you being so black and white? Nobody is saying that his behaviour is evidence of cheating.

Except they are? There have been a multitude of posts accounting his response as evidence slanting them towards suspicion, as well as demands on what Perikles "should" do in order to clear his name.

Maybe they didn't use the word "evidence" but it's very clear from the OP that Perikles response is being used against him here.

Evidence to me implies an unquestionable nature. If I'm wrong about that, that's my bad. In this case the "evidence" already requires a biased mode of thinking that Perikles is guilty to view it as evidence. In that case it is not real evidence. Is that wrong?

I think of evidence as something that is clear.

[Squire Grooktook]

Evidence to me implies an unquestionable nature. If I'm wrong about that, that's my bad. In this case the "evidence" already requires a biased mode of thinking that Perikles is guilty to view it as evidence. In that case it is not real evidence. Is that wrong?

I think of evidence as something that is clear.

We're talking pure semantics now, but evidence is not "unquestionable or clear". That's why it's debated.

A smoking gun belonging to Bob might be submitted as evidence that Bob killed Brett. It may then be pointed out that it's not satisfactory evidence (or might in fact be evidence to the contrary) because John's fingerprints are mysteriously on Bob's gun.

Regardless of what terminology you use, Perikles response has been filed under the "list of reasons to think he's a cheater" pile...and I'm just pointing out that it's as flimsy as every other piece I've seen so far.

[chum]

Evidence to me implies an unquestionable nature. If I'm wrong about that, that's my bad. In this case the "evidence" already requires a biased mode of thinking that Perikles is guilty to view it as evidence. In that case it is not real evidence. Is that wrong?

I think of evidence as something that is clear.

We're talking pure semantics now, but evidence is not "unquestionable or clear". That's why it's debated.

A smoking gun belonging to Bob might be submitted as evidence that Bob killed Brett. It may then be pointed out that it's not satisfactory evidence (or might in fact be evidence to the contrary) because John's fingerprints are mysteriously on Bob's gun.

Regardless of what terminology you use, Perikles response has been filed under the "list of reasons to think he's a cheater" pile...and I'm just pointing out that it's as flimsy as every other piece I've seen so far.

Fine, then nobody is claiming that it's "satisfactory" or "final" "evidence". Happy now? Nobody is saying that. Just because someone think it might point towards guilt doesn't mean they don't realize that's speculative by nature. I feel like you are trying to paint me as more unreasonable than I really am. If it is presumed that Perikles is cheating due to his videos and the abscence of his INPs, then his behaviour doesn't help and can be viewed as complementary of that. It is not a basis for guilt but complementary of the base reasons people were doubting him in the first place. This is basic. Your reasoning that "Maybe he's just weird and that's why he's acting that way" is also basic. It is honestly a rudimentary experience to be talking about such things.

As for your conversation.

Again, the "strange dodges" people are clearly not the same people that are playing these hard games. They are confused about what makes people question Perikles runs. It is not strange dodges. I make just as many if not more strange dodges than what Perikles does.

The problem is not strange dodges, the problem is lack of strategy. Perikles uses strange dodges as a crutch to avoid strategy in games where strategy should come naturally and be mostly required to clear, as you play it repeatedly. Before you accuse me of projecting rationality again: I am not saying that every single player on earth would play videogames sensibly, that's why I cannot 100% convince me that Perikles is cheating at all. Maybe he is super skilled but just doesn't know how to route games. I just wanted to clear that up. The strange dodges people are not part of the chum team!
That's not saying Perikles playing isn't a little strange even on a dodging level though, his reactions are insanely sharp. Try looking with frame advance for how quickly reacts to spawning bullets! It's quite amazing.

[Plasmo]

I think a big chunk of it is people who haven't played the games a substantial amount of time thinking something is crazier than it is.
like fucking Batsuugan Special
I blind multi-looped that game
the hitboxes are too small. You can literally flail through bullet clouds for fun in that game

BareKnuckleRooToday at 12:23 PM
The Batsugun Special one is pretty believable, I have made very stupid dodges too like that

Let's have a closer look on this one!

I have played the game a lot myself. Funky dodges happen all the time here. The small hitbox easily lets the player get away with it anytime. However, this is not the issue. Take a look at this screenshot:



In his video, Perikles makes an upward movement, then suddenly stops for a frame to dodge the circled bullet and only then continues his way to the top of the screen. If you were in that situation, you would simply hold up and pray not to get hit. But doing this brief stop here is extremely unusual unless you're playing in slow motion or something. The next few frames feature two more dodges of that sort.

And this is without even mentioning that there is a much more reliable way to do this section.

Is this evidence? Of course not. Do I think it looks strange? Hell yeah!

[maximo310]

BareKnuckleRooToday at 12:25 PM
Maximo posted a vid link he finds suspicious, but if I were unfamiliar with the game that looks kinda how I'd attempt to flail through it too
It is pretty believable that someone who runs a wide variety of games has more skill just kinda winging it with their dodges too and has routes that are more unpolished

I should probably add a little bit more to my strat disclaimer above. That spread is a lot harder than it looks ( & the last stage plane formations resulting in dozens of failed runs), and while I've got vids showing that you can pass through the spread if you go to the next gap on the right from the middle ( see my GR.5 clear), I realized on practicing that trying to go through those gaps close to the middle was not consistent in my experience, which is why I'm curious to hear his take on that strategy of that particular section ( & final stage looking at the mid part of the stage where he lets some of the mid size planes move up after partially damaging them & kills them later).

[Squire Grooktook]

It is not a basis for guilt but complementary of the base reasons people were doubting him in the first place.

And that's what I'm saying it's not. Because it's just as complimentary or even moreso to the opposing view.

The problem is not strange dodges, the problem is lack of strategy.

And that was addressed

BareKnuckleRooToday at 12:26 PM
Some of them might be stuck in the pro replay, always follow the optimal route mindset and are forgetting how a game can look when you learn it on your own for a first time clear
especially if you aren't watching replays

He is going for SHITCLEARS as fast as possible. Of course his routes aren't perfect or refined. Of course there's a lack of strategy. He's trial and erroring it until he gets the result he wants and then moving on. In the vast majority of games he's playing, this is perfectly reasonable and what one would expect. It's also not exactly true for most of his clears, in my experience. His routes have helped me and generally look fairly fine in my experience. But then I haven't watched every video..

Which brings me to one last thing...

I don't think you are very interested in an honest investigation. You seem to jump in and defend Perikles without looking at the actual arguments presented here. Admittedly, understanding why some of his routes look so suspicous is not the easiest task. It also takes a considerable amount of experience, which doesn't help the situation either. But here's my challenge to you: Try to use Perikles' routes and learn Same Same Same this way!
.

So lets be real here:

Is his Same Same Same clear the one real major piece of evidence against him here?

Because I, and several others here, are familiar with a large number of the games he has played. And the runs submitted as evidence against him are not only NOT strange...but exactly what one would expect. Almost nothing that's been said against his playstyle and runs hold any water if you're familiar with these games.

But, Same Same Same! is an infamously difficult and stringent game. I have not played it extensively, nor watched his replay, so I cannot say anything substantial about it. I've only casually played a few credits and watched a few people stream it, enough to give an overview that it's very much a batshit game that takes a significant amount of time and practice to clear alongside strong routing and execution. One of the hardest classic clears you can go for.

So if he did some funky Vixynyan shit in there and his routes are literally impossible and he did it in six days (?)...okay. Maybe you have an argument. But let's be real about it and focus entirely on dissecting that game then, eh? Get some people who've actually cleared it in here to watch the replay.

Is this evidence? Of course not. Do I think it looks strange? Hell yeah!

I'm pretty sure I could find the exact same thing in my replays by looking for clips where I was frantically mashing the joystick at random, and by coincidence made a "slow mo" looking manuever like that.

I wouldn't say it even looks strange.

[chum]

He is going for SHITCLEARS as fast as possible. Of course his routes aren't perfect or refined. Of course there's a lack of strategy. He's trial and erroring it until he gets the result he wants and then moving on.

I do not see how you could go for shitclears in S! S! S! and not learn any routes. it is simply inconceivable to me. I'm sorry, but that is how it is.

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^see my response to Plasmo above.

As I said, I'm pretty sure Same should be the heart of the conversation here. It's the one thing that makes me raise an eyebrow. The rest is simply negligible TBH.

So let's see some dissection of that. Preferably from people who have cleared it.