The Problem with Perikles

[Plasmo]

What's wrong with Tatsujin Oh? A closer look on stage 5

The section features extremely fast reactions and amazing precision in movement throughout. While you are normally supposed to point blank the midsize enemies and kill them as soon as possible, Perikles gets pushed down (this can happen anytime and is not necessarily bad routing) and has to go through a lot of tough dodges without any bomb. Dodges like this can surely happen to any of us, but it's a mixture of flailing and precision that needs our attention here. I will only focus on the most questionable parts. Watch the section as a whole to get a better picture. The explanations are specifically aimed at lesser experienced people to give them an idea what to look out for and what the exact issues are.


Situation #1



Right when the bullets become readable, he moves down 4 frames, then diagonal down-left 4 frames and escapes the situation to the right. Very fast reactions and good decision making. This one looks believable to me but showcases some great skill.


Situation #2



Two lines of twin bullets are fired at him. Coming from the left, he moves exactly to the position he needs to be to fit through the red lines. Then he moves up 8 frames (into the blue bullets!), stops for 2 frames and then escapes to the right. Movement is super fast and super precise. No correction whatsoever. The upwards movement is slightly too far. Potentially a mistake here.


Situation #3



Before the barrage has properly unpacked (blue circle) and can be read by the player, he starts a straight, continuous movement of 14 frames to the right only to suddenly stop at the perfect spot and stays there. The gap has barely become readable before he stops. No correction of movement whatsoever. Due to the difficulty of reading the enemy projectiles, a more natural solution would’ve been to move further to the right and try to macro dodge it. This would have resulted in a death.


Situation #4



The moment the bullets of the left ship become readable (4-5 frames reaction time at most) he moves down 6 frames and stops precisely before crushing into the enemy bullets. This downward movement is made more difficult because he also had to simultaneously pay attention and read the appearing bullets from the other ship above.


Situation #5



He gets trapped in a very nasty situation and has to move up. The directly aimed bullets leave absolutely no room for dodging them and form a constant line. Nonetheless, Perikles manages to do a successful cutback. From the very first moment a potential gap emerges, he needs exactly 5 frames to react and moves down, perfectly fitting through the two bullets. Doing a cutback this high up on screen and at this speed is absolutely mindblowing.


----------------------------------

So while the actual argument behind the suspicion is a quantitative one, these qualitative analyses are necessary to exemplify what exactly is being questioned here. If this were a single occurrence, noone would've ever raised any doubts. The thing is that other replays feature similar problems. While we are dealing here with a lot of precise dodges, the problem with Same Same Same rather appears to be the routing (from what I can see in Jaimers' post). Many of Perikles' videos are perfectly fine and I see zero problems with them at all. But I can't deny that there are some very suspicious videos as well. For this reason I think the opening post is justified.

This could've all been solved in private communications but as NTSC-J already told us, Perikles didn't seem to be very receptive of that.

I also want to stress again that I am far from being convinced that Perikles has ever cheated. And this is exactly what this topic is for: to have a discussion and listen to each other's arguments. I have to admit that you need a certain degree of experience with these games in order to understand why people have these doubts in the first place. When people like BareKnuckleRoo, blossom, Squire Grooktook or Shepardus bring up arguments for Perikles, I can respect that a lot. They are all very experienced players and know what's going on.

You don't have to be a superplayer to follow the arguments presented here. But if you have never routed a shmup at all and have no clue about the intricacies of dodging, it will be difficult to understand this discussion. I see some people here trying to defend Perikles on a personal level. This is completely unrelated. The case has nothing to do with Perikles as a person. This is only about his videos and scores. If you have never cared about playing shmups more systematically, maybe this is simply the wrong topic for you.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Honestly Bananaman, that's what you came up with? This strikes me as extremely biased. Allow me to break it down a bit, no offense, of course.

Plasmo who is super serious about record keeping and rules

Jaimers who is incredibly serious about the technical details but doesn't really care about online leaderboards because they lose all personal value once you're #1 in everything

These two and some other folks fail to account for the possibility that routing doesn't mean as much to Perikles as it does to a competitive shmupper. (Heck, I don't give a damn about routing but I've beaten a ton of shmups. Oh, and in case you mention scoring, consider that it isn't an issue in this case at all. Why does a person who just wants to clear games have to adhere to routes? Cmon now...)

Further, consider that he had multiple attempts. Infinite attempts, even. You don't need routing for that to succeed. If you flail around in a section ten times, it'll work one of the times. It's like people are assuming he cleared these games on the first attempt or something...

Perikles's own attitude (as presented here) seems to be the cause of real suspicion, honestly. The chosen moments are nothing short of mindblowing, but with enough attempts, anyone can achieve this. Sadly, Perikles himself could've easily averted this by going in-depth about the runs instead of staying quiet.

A bunch of people who think doesn't have enough proof (despite not understanding the issues in the replays in the first place

There's no proof of Perikles cheating. There's proof that his playstyle is weird. The more you stress out how suspicious his nitpicked dodges are, the further you dig yourself down. Everyone's capable of dodging weird, especially with infinite attempts and tons of training, which Perikles does have. It's been said before and I'll say it again, the only proof you can get is proof of his skills, and that's not what this was presented as. Consider for a moment that he has a ton of clears. Finding some strange dodges in such a large selection of clears is only natural.

directly denying the intense interest of Plasmo

How do you 'deny interest' , exactly? What is this even supposed to mean? No one's pretending his posts don't exist, and he's gotten mostly civilized responses. (Heck, I think he did a nice approach, myself).

Some people who think that gaming should be a safe space

More like some people who think that being assholes is wrong. This thread shouldn't exist. The goals might be OK but the execution is garbage. People should be punished for their mistakes but this isn't what's happening here at all! If someone's openly a shit person on the internet, they'll get called out, and if you make an edgy accusation thread like this, then you're the shit person. If you think that we should be fine with this display, then that speaks more about your own depravity than anything else. But no, let's continue propagating muh shmup culture by being dicks!

ignoring rules which directly undermines Plasmo's goal

Bullshit. There are no broken rules. There were only requests which Perikles denied. The validity of those requests is extremely high, but this doesn't make them rules. We can't know if Perikles is just extremely reclusive or fond of privacy, or if there's ulterior motives, but being weird isn't breaking any laws. (This is a good moment to note that this should've just been propagated in DMs instead of there being a thread)

this group also doesn't really have the credentials to tell what replay looks fake and what doesn't

Keep your toxic sludge to yourself. Shmups always had a degree of nepotism around them and you're pretty much openly embracing that now. Bold move...
People don't need "credentials" to tell what looks fake or not. Anyone can play the games and try to do things that Perikles did. There's people here who've played thousands of shmups but just don't care about the competitive scene (myself included), and saying that they don't have a right to speak is just being a toxic shit. While a few folks certainly don't understand what's going on, most people "in this group" are just being reasonable instead of being elitist pricks. Even worse, the "proof" is nitpicked, while no one mentions the rest of Perikles' submissions. (This isn't to say that some folks aren't being far too kind to him, but there's very little of that in the thread.)

People who think this is character assassination and we shouldn't scare Perikles off

But it is. Perikles is being accused of cheating but the evidence presented is just things that look off. You can pretend that it's a demand for proof all you want. The reality is that this thread says "Perikles needs to prove that he's not shit" , and that the consequences say "Perikles will be known as shit unless he does this."
As I've noted previously, I don't know, and can't know whether this is just due to shortsightedness of the OPs or if there's actual bad intent involved. I'm leaning towards the former, tbh.

no one who is actively participating wants to give an inch because they're too firm in their beliefs

There's nothing we can do, though. The only solution is for Perikles himself to respond. Our inches are irrelevant.

the monhun board on gamefaqs is another good example, there's the speedrunner who despises the "plebs", you have the people who hate speedrunners for being "too serious"

Except this isn't what's going on here. For one, this isn't even about scores! The only people who want to bring big time shmupping into this are people who'd benefit from it, which is to be excepted. The desire to tell other people to shut up because of X (in this case, shmup skills) is too strong, I guess. No amount of shmup experience will make this look like less of a dick move, and you're not entitled to being a dick because of shmup experience.

[wiNteR]

As an uneducated guess, looking at that 30--40 second clip.

This looks roughly on par roughly with harder parts in 2-4 or possibly beginning of 2-5 of donpachi (nmnb play and us version). Would this assessment be roundabout correct? But this is still a 40 second clip compared to whole long stages of donpachi (which have significantly bigger duration). It might also help others to gauge the rough difficulty of this kind of section here.

To someone completely foreign to this given game, the 40 second clip seems plausible though quite impressive. But exactly "how" impressive idk honestly (I am not good at judging at this kind of thing without playing) ...... and that seems to be the main question here. The main difficulty seems to be positioning with such fast ship movement speed (once again, hard to guess without playing the game and possibly the same section extensively).

Edit:
I looked at first 3 situations briefly. Quite honestly (but admittedly on a fairly cursory look), I don't see that big of a deal (at least in the situations you described). Yes, very impressive (and perhaps more than that), but I am not convinced that this is harder than say donpachi (under the situation I mentioned above) or harder parts of Jamestown (judgement) etc. I think it might be pertinent to mention those games because while they have much more bulletcount than the game in the post, they aren't exactly bullet-hell.

I don't really know whether 40 second clip is enough. But perhaps I am really underestimating the handling of fast movement speed of ship in the given circumstances. But I would stop now and like to see an opinion of an expert player (or someone willing to spend sometime on that section).

[copy-paster]

For what it's worth, he hasn't logged on in two weeks, so I'm not sure he's even seen this thread. Doesn't discount the possibility that he's been visiting while logged out, but periods of inactivity aren't unusual for him either (look at his posting history).

Keep in mind that you can hide your login status in login page. Interestingly his last login was the exact same time as I posted Macross II score on his thread.

Try post your score of any game hosted by him, then wait for days or two. If your score gets updated but he's not been commented on this thread then it might be something.

[Licorice]

Someone archive his YT videos please. I'd also say his forum posts. I would be a very sad Licorice if Perikles senpai's amazing content disappeared due to bullying.

[donluca]

I also want to stress again that I am far from being convinced that Perikles has ever cheated. And this is exactly what this topic is for: to have a discussion and listen to each other's arguments.

And this is the feeling I always got from this thread.

I don't understand why people are feeling that this is anything even remotely close to a personal attack or saying that he's cheated.

Some suspicious dodges have raised a question which is not condemning in itself because god knows how many times people have lucked their way out of seemingly impossible situation and obtained a 1CC.

From Plasmo's scrutiny, I'd say that Perikles used a massive amount of save states when learning the game to find his way through some situations such as those described above, learned precisely what to do and maybe developed muscle memory doing this and then he went on and did his 1cc video. Maybe he's just stubborn in finding his own way out of some situations instead of proper routing, who knows?

That's why this thread is here, if he just dropped in and gave us some insight it will be alright.

There's no witch hunt going on and no malice, although some people are trying to make this look like it.

[copy-paster]

I'd say that Perikles used a massive amount of save states when learning the game to find his way through some situations

Might as well put his old post regarding his playstyle.

EDIT: This is his writeup of that link in case people lazy open the link

Spoiler

I can understand both sides of the argument and like to mix it up depending on the game and mood.

When I re-discovered the genre a few years back I exclusively played on consoles without ever touching any emulator, I also refrained from watching videos save for very rare occasions. Progress might've been slower than it could've been, but I still cleared several shmups (far over 100) with this method, continuously learning the fundamentals along the way. And I do believe it was very helpful in that regard: to come to terms with some universal mechanics as opposed to particular spots. As someone who has no outstanding reflexes or motor skill I sorely needed to get an idea how to dodge bullets in general. Like several novices I started out frantically moving all over the screen instead of resorting to fewer, but methodical manoeuvers. Instead of condemning checkpoints just as impossible I sat down to learn them, discovering that there are indeed logical ways to conquer them (in some games, that is), I even started to really enjoy the challenge of recovering in certain titles. I purposefully killed myself in the SFC Gradius III to see how every single checkpoint would work out, and was greatly pleased when I managed to get back on my feet from every one of them. Improving the entire game was also beneficial - sometimes a certain boss or spot would prove to be a major roadblock, yet with enough resources it was possible to beat those, as well. This also taught me a lesson in strategy: there might be more than one way to achieve the desired goal.

My fondest memory of that is probably the first R-Type. I played it on the PS1 without any external help. I wasn't even aware at the time that you could enter a code to fully power up the ship which would've lessened the pain of the checkpoints considerably. All I did was playing the game from the start, tossing credits in and learning it. You might imagine what a massacre it was - recovering in R-Type is no simple task at all for a neophyte, I have to admit that I still never managed to beat the game without both bits (in order to have them for the final boss you're not allowed to die after stage 4). Despite all the frustration, it was a magical experience. When I finally managed to clear the first loop on a single life I was tremendously thrilled.

Maybe I'm romanticising matters, but I like to think that I didn't really "waste" time while playing like that. I tried to productively learn from every session and game, and I do feel that this was ultimately the case. Even dabbling with some monstrosities such as Dimension Force, Battle Squadron or Legion was valuable since they forced me to re-evaluate some of my concepts. Adapting to terrible games can be a veritable chore, dealing with sloppy, colossal hitboxes, baffling design choices or flat-out unfair enemies a real torture. Nevertheless, it helped to pave the way for later games to come.


The turning point for me came when I thought about loops. Some games got so much tougher in their subsequent loops that I couldn't get any efficient practice in. The Gradius Deluxe Packs for the 32-bit consoles for example don't even allow any sort of loop select, so if you want to practice higher loops you always have to beat the first loop before getting into the real challenge. Then and there I realized it would take me forever to clear the second loop of an Irem game or Konami title, and that other means of practice were in order. I still play games without any savestate practice simply because I have more fun just inserting a credit once in a while (Twin Cobra is the perfect example for this) and other games have highly dysfunctional savestates anyway (like Dragon Saber; or the game doesn't run well in MAME at all such as Gradius IV), so it's not like I can't beat tougher games without them all of a sudden. There is no denying that it would be a horrible waste of time in other situations, though. Recovery in R-Type II's second loop was completely out of the question for me, so what would be my alternative? Playing for thirty minutes, dying once, starting all over, getting tired and eventually shutting off without any progress whatsoever? I had a lot of joy to figure this game out with savestates, it granted me the freedom to just test things I never would've dared otherwise. If anything, the savestates can be a tool for the player to get more creative. I'm not advocating to use them all the time, I do believe there is such a thing as genuinely experiencing the game which might get lost if you immediately divide the game into little chunks. There are other circumstances where they not only facilitate beating a long, tough game, but also generate a lot of delectation you might be missing otherwise.

[donluca]

Might as well put his old post regarding his playstyle.

Thanks for posting that, I think that long post almost single-handedly answered all the questions brought up in this thread.
In particular:

Recovery in R-Type II's second loop was completely out of the question for me, so what would be my alternative? Playing for thirty minutes, dying once, starting all over, getting tired and eventually shutting off without any progress whatsoever? I had a lot of joy to figure this game out with savestates, it granted me the freedom to just test things I never would've dared otherwise. If anything, the savestates can be a tool for the player to get more creative.

This post was made by Perikles on the 10th of August 2016.

With the exception of the Raiden II video (which was uploaded on the 11th of June 2016), all the others were uploaded past that post's date which meant that Perikles might have been using savestates to a larger extent to get through those difficult situations.

Honestly, after reading that post, I feel satisfied and I can, for myself, say that there is proof enough that he weren't cheating, but pushing his own strats to get the 1cc.

[Shepardus]

There's no witch hunt going on and no malice, although some people are trying to make this look like it.

I think this particular thread is mostly fine, but I'm sure there are people outside this forum who really want to see Perikles burn. Squire Grooktook's screenshot from earlier is testament to that. I'd hate for forces like that to pressure Perikles out of the community, even if they do turn out to be correct in their assessment.

There probably isn't a whole we can do at this point besides frame-by-frame the videos like Plasmo has been doing, and the one input file we happen to have. At the same time, though, I can't help but take such analysis with a grain of salt, knowing that players like WC exist whose movements seem to defy all reason.

[6t8k]

@Shepardus and pegboy: Yes, thanks, shmupmame 4.2 was the catchword

Recorded a video for convenience: Gradius 2-ALL [3-2] 1.015.300 pts (player: Perikles)
(sorry for no audio / quickly threw it together / shouldn't matter here anyway / might delete it sooner or later)

@donluca: Keep in mind there's a difference between savestate practice and purported 1CCs that were achieved via savestates / re-recording.

[kitten]

This could've all been solved in private communications but as NTSC-J already told us, Perikles didn't seem to be very receptive of that.

then maybe respect that? this thread feels like it is being treated as if the guy is getting away with something serious and not some dodgy clears. i'm sorry for being repeatedly baffled at the sanctity of legitimacy, here. dropping "the problem with [valued member of this space]" is firing some klaxons on most public spaces.

I see some people here trying to defend Perikles on a personal level. This is completely unrelated. The case has nothing to do with Perikles as a person. This is only about his videos and scores. If you have never cared about playing shmups more systematically, maybe this is simply the wrong topic for you.

to reiterate, it's not. it's not in good taste. to quote the op -

Of course, I did bring the accusations up to Perikles when asking for his INPs, expecting that he'd be eager to prove his innocence considering how much work he's put into all of this, including his frequent requests to me via PM to update the Hall of Records with each new score he posted. Unfortunately, his reply, while polite, was mostly disinterest in providing any evidence and a request to just quietly remove every score. When pressed further, his next and final response was uncharacteristically typo-riddled and somewhat hostile (and eerily reminiscent of the bit about typical cheater responses at the end of the DOOM video, although still not insulting to me or anyone here), and he said he would not try to explain himself and did not wish to discuss the issue further.

the thread opens with admission that perikles was pushed for INPs and then offered an (apparently unsatisfactory) explanation. he got pushed again, then retreated and asked for removal of his scores. he then got pushed again and finally demonstrated breaking down a bit and gave a request for this to die. maybe you want to push the thread in the direction of pure examination, but i really think it's not suitable to publicly lambast someone who has asked for privacy right after he's asked for it. there's a very clear discomfort with him receiving co-ordinated suspicion & requests and he reacted in a way that is frankly not that weird for someone who has never obviously looked for a spotlight or been seen to be basking in generating respect. going from hounding him to the point of obvious discomfort to "well, you didn't give us what you want, so we're just going to take this public on your home turf" just because he has this imagined onus of proof on him is aggressive behavior whether you want to believe it or not.

i agree the play is suspicious. i agree there's the possibility for cheating. i even agree there's probably a place for that scrutiny, i just really do not think that place was a public thread on here. imho it's disingenuous or ignorant to suggest this thread was a fair and reasonable way of bringing this up. to try and ease things a bit and be less combative, when i said this was a witch hunt i don't mean to imply most people looking to scrutinize perikles' play are being willfully and deliberately malicious, but i think a public callout like this one is in intrinsically poor taste. almost no one here looking for proof is actively thinking to themselves they want to see the guy disappear, but it's quite likely what is going to happen and with obvious factors. there's a reason quite a few people in the thread are identifying this as bullying, and it's not to stir up drama or out of sheer conviction the guy is purely innocent based on charm in his character.

- -

that said - and i hope it wasn't wasted breath because these things are ugly - the healthy direction for this thread probably is play examination at this point rather than asking for it to be dropped and moved out of the public, which unfortunately clearly isn't happening. in good faith of it moving in that direction and because i'm sure i've become more than annoying to several people at this point for butting in, i've giffed up the points of scrutiny you had over his tatsujin ou play for the benefit of the thread (feel free to append them to your post or use them in a future one). apologies for the cropping on the last one, getting these to imgur size but with a reasonable speed & framerate to assist in ease of analyzing took some time and zealous optimizing. some of these in the quick succession that they happen are indeed more than a little eyebrow-raizing, even after factoring in his style of play.

Spoiler

[copy-paster]

GIF 2, 4, and 5 are indeed raise my eyebrow, bullets through at the very near of your hitbox like that also this isn't even original speed. BIL might do gif capture job better.

[kitten]

^ i deliberately giffed at a slow speed & high frame rate to try and demonstrate the intricacies of what plasmo was pointing out. here's a gif of #4 at full speed for comparison (from about this timestamp). BIL does seem to have better gif-making skills than i do and i presume is using better tools to boot, but i don't know if he would want to bother.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I suppose my efforts to record a replay showing this section is doable was a complete waste of my time then? Oh well. :/

I appreciate Plasmo detailing his specific complaints with this section. Examining the complaints in detail about what he finds unusual leaves me convinced more than ever that this section of his Tatsujin Ou video is legitimate.

• Absolutely nothing noteworthy happens at 34:24. The popcorn fire predictable spreads with more than enough of a gap to move through, and it looks like he's trying to sweep around them to misdirect their aimed shots as he's either not comfortable with being in position to kill them quicker or he's messed up.

• The dodge at 34:29 is actually more believable to me that it's a fuckup and a close scrape. If it were TAS'd you'd just move diagonally up and to the right. Your hitbox is gigantic in this, but with your massive speed, some degree of bullshit luck is still possible.

• I don't see what's at issue at 34:36. The red things have a very slow and predictable animation for when they fire, Perikles is staying close to the popcorn to kill them quickly, the far more dangerous enemies, before moving to locate a gap. He doesn't try to wide dodge here because it'd leave the popcorn on the left alive which would get him killed, and it would risk him getting hit by the enemies on the right that appear after. It looks like he's anticipating and looking for a gap in the red enemy's spread and getting ready to deal with the next enemy wave. Difficult timing and in need of good reflexes and a bit of luck perhaps, but not inhuman by any means.

• Suggesting he only has "4-5 frames reaction time at most" to dodge at 34:38 when he's getting close to the red enemies is not an accurate assessment. He can actually anticipate the red ships and rely on timing to help dodge because of how they animate and open up visibly as they fire. He's not relying on pure reaction time to dodge here as you can anticipate and clearly see when the next one's preparing to fire, and get looking for a safe place to move ahead of time. This is a major factor in allowing you to make some aggressive movements at close range to them. Factor in your speedy ship that allows you to zip in and out effectively (albeit with a large hitbox), and this bit looks pretty darn realistic.

• The dodge at 34:54-34:55 is the most irrelevant of all his dodges in the video. While there's clearly an element of luck here and it looks a bit like he's panicking (understandably!), the gaps are larger than some of the stuff I've panic dodged through. What's important though here is this: it doesn't matter whether or not he managed to dodge this section, as if he had died here he's already reached the point where he's triggered the next key checkpoint in the game that he ends up having to do shortly after anyways. By the time the last red ship pops up on the top right, you've already hit the next checkpoint, which he then demonstrates he can get through by dying as the golden enemies first show up.

It's worth noting that there's a far harder checkpoint in the middle of this section where dying will leave you with an abysmal recovery, but if you got as far as the section shown at 34:54 without bombing, then you're basically home free if you die as that checkpoint (where you have a wave of popcorn, one red enemy, then those wide golden enemies) is quite a bit more manageable (as Perikles shows).

[NTSC-J]

Just to clarify what was said between me and Perikles, while I don't feel comfortable sharing his entire replies without his consent, I will post mine.

This is what I first sent:

Hi [name redacted],

I hope you're doing well.

I've recently received a few complaints from players regarding your scores. I still give you the benefit of the doubt and would be happy to have this settled so that your many records remain yours, so it would be a great help if you could provide an INP of one or two of your MAME runs. In particular, if you have your INPs for Truxton 2, Raiden 2, and Daioh, that would be much appreciated.

He explained that he didn't have those anymore because he switched computers and said I could remove the scores.

This is my reply:

Hi [name redacted],

Do you have any INPs at all?

He said he didn't have any and mentioned the Gradius INP on Restart Syndrome. He mentioned finally that he wouldn't exculpate himself or continue the discussion in any way.

I don't feel I was being too pushy, but I understand how the way I presented this rubbed a number of people the wrong way. My intention was just to lay out everything that had been talked about regarding the matter because it just wasn't going away. I do appreciate these posts with players trying these sections and discussing what looks suspicious or not, that's the kind of thing I had in mind.

[donluca]

@donluca: Keep in mind there's a difference between savestate practice and purported 1CCs that were achieved via savestates / re-recording.

Absolutely, but, personally, based on evidence shown and what people have said here, I've made up my mind on the matter.

Not that someone will obviously give a single fuck about it, I'm a guy who's biggest achievement so far has been getting a 1-ALL of Batsugun Special and CAVE's easy modes on X360 (although played on the hardest difficulties and, in the case of ESPGaluda2, with Kakusei Shikai Over always active to make it more challenging).

Not trying to convince anyone, just my own thoughts about this whole discussion.

[copy-paster]

I think it's best asking to Same Same Same 1P and Tatsujin Oh expert (be it japanese or western player), show them Perikles clear and what are they think of his run.

[kitten]

I suppose my efforts to record a replay showing this section is doable was a complete waste of my time then? Oh well. :/

apologies, roo. if you've got some bits in your play you'd like to point out for me to GIF for comparison, i'd be glad. i'm getting tired and about to hit the hay, though, so it'll have to wait until tomorrow. i feel side-by-siding some similar serendipity in your own play would go a distance in making perikles' video here look more legitimate.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'm just whining cause I was hoping it'd put the claims about the Tatsujin Ou vid being fake to rest. ;P

But whatever, getting through there helped with me being able to analyze Perikles' own movements and they look pretty damn reasonable to me. The rest of his Tatsujin Ou video is filled with spots where he clearly has the section planned out and memorized, and there's tons of spots in the game where if you're not comfortable with learning to make rapid dodges through some scary, dense stuff, you might as well not bother going for a 1-ALL clear.

I'm not entirely sure how helpful a side-by-side comparison would be because I'd argue a lot of what people see as "unusual" in his videos could be chalked up to him simply being a player with a very unorthodox, unconventional playstyle, something that could easily be the result of him being determined to learn the games without relying on watching other replays.

[BIL]

something that could easily be the result of him being determined to learn the games without relying on watching other replays.

This is what I'm wondering, as well.

edit: to clarify, "wondering" if that is why his replays come off the way they do. I'm not convinced he's cheating.

[CStarFlare]

I've probably drafted and deleted three posts for this thread now. I don't have much to add: the situation is perfect for fence-sitting. The videos cited have some very odd play, but we've all had/seen absurd plays work out when they shouldn't (the WC SDOJ Stunfest video is great). Perikles demonstrates his knowledge and strategies in spades in his posts and youtube video descriptions and it can feel intuitively true that this is something one can only attain from being good enough to conquer the games. It's not really true, but it is a sign that someone is several steps ahead of Replay Burners (who I've found to be an incredible source when I needed info about games for RS).

The fantastic DOOM video provides several examples (which are dime-a-dozen in the speedrunning world) about how even highly respected and talented players aren't immune from the temptation/need to cheat, and those people are exactly the people who have the familiarity with game systems needed to pull off a convincing falsification. It's a disappointing reality that we need to acknowledge: the possibility is never off the table. And without some sort of strong statement/performance from Perikles we'll probably live in an uncomfortable grey zone no matter where the community falls on the question of whether some/all of his scores aren't credible enough to remain.

Both the Same!x3 and Tatsujin Oh videos are three years old at this point, so I'm content to table concerns about them for a while pending two things:

1. Review of the Gradius INP file that was retrieved from RS by someone knows what to look for. It won't prove the legitimacy of any other scores, but if it establishes some use of trickery that would be valuable.

(Full disclosure: when this thread was posted I went looking for the INP because I suspected I was lazy in coding what happened to media uploads when the record they're attached to is modified/deleted. I sent Perikles a link to it but told him I wouldn't release it without his consent; he would have had good reason to expect it was gone and I would have felt weird dropping it without his permission. I'm pleased someone was able to sleuth it out, though.)
2. Some sort of contact from Perikles. I would love to hear from him, even if he wants to reach out privately.

As a fellow fence-sitter, I do feel there's a point at which a decision must be made by the people in charge: either remove the scores or state definitively that we're moving on from that question. The OP put the question to the community, but the people who have suspicions have largely held off on advocating for action so far (understandably so).

So I'll move first: if NTSC-J's report that Perikles requested his scores be removed is accurate I would recommend doing so on the 1st of the year unless we hear from him. At that date I'll also mark them as private on Restart Syndrome (that is easily reversed if he decides to come forward and maintains his own private record of his scores if he wishes to keep it). Without that request, I'd say that without several people willing to move beyond chatter and actually commit to the accusation and request removal, no action should be taken.

This isn't and won't be intended as a reflection on him as a player, person, or member of the community. It's a reflection of wanting the scoreboards to be able to stand up to scrutiny (and silence does not qualify). The questions raised aren't unreasonable, and if members of the community are willing to state outright that they believe the scores aren't legitimate ignoring that undermines the entire enterprise of maintaining a supposedly moderated scoreboard.

Rare as this situation is, it might be worth attempting to set some sort of pre-determined mediation process for this kind of dispute, and/or explicitly state what the community's gold standard of proof actually is. A mediation process might allow for things to be raised and settled before people have been talking about it amongst themselves for years, and a gold standard would give players absolute guidance on how to preemptively answer any questions about legitimacy. I'm sure many of the people in this thread have an idea of what would have been perfect contemporaneous proof of these scores; let's say formalise that.

[Jaimers]

Let's play a game.
Go watch the Tatsujin Ou clip again, but this time set the Youtube video speed to 0.5.

All the movement suddenly makes a lot more sense now doesn't it.
This would also perfectly explain the odd behavior and movement in the Same! replay.
And also explain the lack of routing because you don't need it when you have so much more time to react to the insanely fast (now slow) bullets.

I tried to produce this myself and was shocked at how easy it is.
You can just open CheatEngine and enable speedhack, record an inp while playing at half speed, then play the inp back and it just plays at normal speed.

Why does a person who just wants to clear games have to adhere to routes?

These two particular games are not clearable without very strict routing.

Further, consider that he had multiple attempts. Infinite attempts, even. You don't need routing for that to succeed.

He had very limited attempts because he beat these games in record time.

With the exception of the Raiden II video (which was uploaded on the 11th of June 2016), all the others were uploaded past that post's date which meant that Perikles might have been using savestates to a larger extent to get through those difficult situations.

Everyone uses savestates to learn and practice these games, yet don't produce replays this weird.

[Shepardus]

I tried to produce this myself and was shocked at how easy it is.
You can just open CheatEngine and enable speedhack, record an inp while playing at half speed, then play the inp back and it just plays at normal speed.

You don't even need to do that much, just launch MAME with the parameter "-speed 0.5" and you get half speed.

[Xyga]

Right, now we're talking, all that was needed is more clarity.

With the material on this page, and playing that segment on YT at 0.5 speed, what I can see is that his way of moving around is not natural, it is mechanical and lazy even in the hottest spots, for me that's practically the nail in the coffin, say 95% convinced unless someone has an explanation nobody thought of (keyboard play?)

I'll have a look at Same3 half speed now.

EDIT: I mean keyboard could explain some strange angled V>H, H>V movement, I do the same shit when I shmup with one (rare but it happens, like when trying stuff on an emulator, of w/ a laptop and forgot pad), but that doesn't explain the wtf relaxation in front of danger we see, if anything a keyboard makes you do more usless panic moves, unless maybe you're under some substance that helps prevent accidents.

[ACSeraph]

It's a reflection of wanting the scoreboards to be able to stand up to scrutiny (and silence does not qualify).

This sums up my feelings on the issue.

Rare as this situation is, it might be worth attempting to set some sort of pre-determined mediation process for this kind of dispute, and/or explicitly state what the community's gold standard of proof actually is. A mediation process might allow for things to be raised and settled before people have been talking about it amongst themselves for years, and a gold standard would give players absolute guidance on how to preemptively answer any questions about legitimacy. I'm sure many of the people in this thread have an idea of what would have been perfect contemporaneous proof of these scores; let's say formalise that.

I'm in full support of this. If we assume that Perikles didn't cheat then it's honestly quite unfair to demand proof of his scores when we don't have an official rule for that. So we need to make an official statement that the curators of score threads can reserve the right to request INPs etc. for unusual scores, especially new records. It should be a normal thing rather than something people view as an attack.

[Ko.oS]

.

im not taking any sides, but two things to note, re Tatusjin Ou:

Spoiler

in the comments to the suspiscious Tatsu Ou vid, perik wrote:

1)
"Truxton II is very similar, but it has a few tweaks that make it easier in the long run" (..) "I've covered a lot of the basics in my Truxton II video already (..)";

so, maybe, and just maybe, the experience with the easier Trux 2 might have helped him in clearing Ou's 1st loop in a relatively short time;

&

2)
"I'm not faring all that well at the dreaded start of stage 5, but I devised a "non-optimal" route/plan in advance for this occasion (..)"

if the gifs posted above arent from the start of stage 5, then dont read further.
however, if they are (min 34.xx-35.xx), then his comment 2) could be taken in at least two ways:

the pro camp:
a) he did have a plan, and *in addition* also got very lucky, ergo the run is legit

the contra camp:
b) he did indeed use slomo or another cheat, is perfectly aware that due to that his execution for that part does look quite suspicious, so he "cleverly" added that comment pre-emptively (if you get what i mean - if you dont, its okay, carry on)

---

again, not taking any sides -- but as i was bit active in the doom demo scene back in the day when "accusations" of cheating would happen occasionaly --

(usually warranted (as in the suspect players were indeed cheating) & i can only remember one single instance of where someone was wrongly "accused" -- however the suspected player
a) did do defend and explain himself (and got backed up by other seasoned players who had played against him in lan meetings)
and b) he used a rather rare control scheme, which was partiallly responsible for the super sharp sr50 movement --

i just wanted to let you know that i do find this thread quite interesting regardless. take it easy,

shumpers.



btw

Spoiler

i wrote the above before the two last posts, just FTR

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I hate jump to the conclusion that because his dodges and reactions are good that the only explanation is he's using a slowdown cheat. I still want to be able to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I don't agree with all of the claims of what's suspicious and what's not, but given his apparent unwillingness to defend his vast number of runs at all... yeah it doesn't look great either. It's reasonable to assume people will want more solid evidence of skill if you're posting a lot of high level clears so I understand why there's general skepticism. I think it's unfortunate, but it's fair to remove his scores if their authenticity is being questioned by people who know the games and he's not willing to defend them by giving a more public, live demonstration.

If runs are that easy to fake, then how do we end up trusting anything without seeing people play live runs?

[Licorice]

IMO removing scores doesn't make sense, especially if you're not going to hold up all other scores to the same scrutiny, because then you're introducing a different kind of unfairness.

The simplest resolution would be to institute some new submission requirements or whatever and have two different eras. Old and new.

Just like tennis. You have the open era and the pre-open era. Or like historical time and mythological time. Appropriate given the Perikles' love for mythology.

[NTSC-J]

Jaimers, great post. It really is striking how much more the movements make sense when at half speed.

As a fellow fence-sitter, I do feel there's a point at which a decision must be made by the people in charge: either remove the scores or state definitively that we're moving on from that question. The OP put the question to the community, but the people who have suspicions have largely held off on advocating for action so far (understandably so).

So I'll move first: if NTSC-J's report that Perikles requested his scores be removed is accurate I would recommend doing so on the 1st of the year unless we hear from him. At that date I'll also mark them as private on Restart Syndrome (that is easily reversed if he decides to come forward and maintains his own private record of his scores if he wishes to keep it). Without that request, I'd say that without several people willing to move beyond chatter and actually commit to the accusation and request removal, no action should be taken.

This isn't and won't be intended as a reflection on him as a player, person, or member of the community. It's a reflection of wanting the scoreboards to be able to stand up to scrutiny (and silence does not qualify). The questions raised aren't unreasonable, and if members of the community are willing to state outright that they believe the scores aren't legitimate ignoring that undermines the entire enterprise of maintaining a supposedly moderated scoreboard.

Rare as this situation is, it might be worth attempting to set some sort of pre-determined mediation process for this kind of dispute, and/or explicitly state what the community's gold standard of proof actually is. A mediation process might allow for things to be raised and settled before people have been talking about it amongst themselves for years, and a gold standard would give players absolute guidance on how to preemptively answer any questions about legitimacy. I'm sure many of the people in this thread have an idea of what would have been perfect contemporaneous proof of these scores; let's say formalise that.

Agreed with everything in your post. A New Year's deadline sounds reasonable to me for hearing back from him.

To clarify, will you quarantine all of his scores or just the ones people have the most issues with (Tatsujin Ou and Same!)?

I also think it's probably long overdue for a mediation process of some sort that can be carried out discreetly with the thread manager, the player, and maybe another player that is well-versed in the game to avoid clumsy dispute attempts like mine here. I think live streams are a good first option since so many players use emulators and/or have the ability to stream, but I understand that isn't available in all cases so we'll have to think of other possibilities (smartphone videos, etc.). As far as a gold standard, I think that's a bit trickier because I want to say first place scores should have video as proof, but this again might not be easy in some cases (like playing on a cabinet), and obviously, in Perikles's case, more than just his videos have been requested. Also, as Licorice just said, any rules we decide on should only apply from that day forward and wouldn't apply to previously posted scores.

If runs are that easy to fake, then how do we end up trusting anything without seeing people play live runs?

Yeah, that's what's so shitty about this situation. We've gotten along so well for so long mainly on an honor system, but it does leave things open for someone to take advantage. I still think we can carry on by trusting each other and only disputing scores when multiple players start to raise doubts.

[DenT4F]

Ain't well known here and I'm not qualified to be suspicious of Perikles' movement and lack of routing. But while I think the honor system is great, if someone new came out of nowhere and started submitting top scores without any tangible proof, at some point you'd probably ask for INPs or something.

So to me, it looks like the "problem" with Perikles is that this step was overlooked for too long.. Because if this thread was about Jaimers for example, it could be shut down before he could log in to defend himself. Any truly great players went to shmupmeets, has countless INPs, screenshots of their big scores at HEY, they stream.. whatever.. while Perikles has Youtube videos. And most of his videos aren't traditional because he can beat the games with minimum effort. To my knowledge, that puts him in a class of his own.. truly legendary if 100% legit. The "problem" being, we have nothing to believe it is legit.

To be clear, I'd like to say that I'm not calling him out. Not my place.. but I do respect the people who are claiming some of his content is suspicious. Just a shame that DMs didn't shake things up and this thread came to be.