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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:02 pm 


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CyberAngel wrote:
BrainΦΠΦTemple wrote:
do you think that you are approaching this without bias? i don't mean to come across strongly, but you seem to be dead set that he didn't cheat and are emotionally driven by it, and being emotionally driven can cause the biggest biases, so it's important to not get as heated as you're getting.

I don't have any strong opinion on whether he cheated or not. There have been convincing technical arguments for both sides. However, the circustantional evidence - i.e. his last post and his channel going down - have been interpreted in a strongly one-sided way. So I just provided an alternate interpretation based on my personal experience. Truth be told, your reasoning is definitely plausible and has precedents, but I've seen enough to know that my alternative is just as plausible.

But the true irony here is that those that call out my responses fail to realize that they've been given some of their own medicine, and by doing that they're calling out themselves.

But none of this matters in the long run. Perikles' channel is deleted, and he said he's okay with his scores removed. I might find that a negative outcome, but I have no issue with you or anyone else who approached the whole thing reasonably. I do, however, have issue with stuff like the post I linked above. Even if you turn out to be right, it still should not be acceptable to forget basic human decency. And while I may not be a saint myself, well, you know what they say - mote in my eye, beam in your own.

fair enough lol
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:02 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:20 pm 


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Perikles wrote:
No matter what you believe, you will always be able to arrange even the most nugatory details into a coherent tessellation. You can argue with the actual demeanour or its polar opposite and it still fits perfectly. That's not to say some of it couldn't be veracious all along, but that is really more happenstance than keen profiling.


This is a totally normal reply that someone being accused of cheating would say. It doesn't sound like weird copypasta written by a sociopath at all.

Bloody wrote:
He is from germany im living in Germany


That settles it then. He didn't want to meet some dude in real life just because they live in the same country, so you could magically "prove he's legit", therefore he's guilty! When did we become Twin Galaxies? Meeting in real life doesn't mean anything. In fact, posts like these are creepy and weird. You share a mutual interest in a video game genre, and that's it. Why would he meet you in real life over this? It's such a shame he decided not to do this, can't imagine why. I'll lose sleep over this sad outcome.

Ako wrote:
I have even done it myself in similar ways such as deleting old videos or literally decades-old accounts from when I was a teenager


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:43 pm 


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Elixir wrote:
Perikles wrote:
No matter what you believe, you will always be able to arrange even the most nugatory details into a coherent tessellation. You can argue with the actual demeanour or its polar opposite and it still fits perfectly. That's not to say some of it couldn't be veracious all along, but that is really more happenstance than keen profiling.


This is a totally normal reply that someone being accused of cheating would say. It doesn't sound like weird copypasta written by a sociopath at all.

Bloody wrote:
He is from germany im living in Germany


That settles it then. He didn't want to meet some dude in real life just because they live in the same country, so you could magically "prove he's legit", therefore he's guilty! When did we become Twin Galaxies? Meeting in real life doesn't mean anything. In fact, posts like these are creepy and weird. You share a mutual interest in a video game genre, and that's it. Why would he meet you in real life over this? It's such a shame he decided not to do this, can't imagine why. I'll lose sleep over this sad outcome.

Ako wrote:
I have even done it myself in similar ways such as deleting old videos or literally decades-old accounts from when I was a teenager


gaussian blur 3 by kil


lol I mean even older shit than mere bemani memes

Real talk though can someone explain to me why perikles writes like that, it has always been a bit spooky.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:41 pm 



Joined: 16 Feb 2019
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Isn't that just how all Germans speak?


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:15 am 


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Gonna leave this here, assuming this is the catch-all thread for suspected cheaters.

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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:18 am 


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Can you not?


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:39 am 


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I really hate to think we're dealing with yet another cheated Truxton II/Tatsujin Oh attempt, but alas, I can't help but feel that his stage 5 opener looks rather odd. When I first watched his clear, that one dodge near the beginning really grabbed my attention, where he tapped up and immediately went back down, but that section overall just looks twitchy, and not like it's being played by someone who's put 177 attempts into the game like he claims to have in his video description.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:46 am 



Joined: 16 Feb 2019
Posts: 163
Ugh. Are you seriously gonna start chalking up every single lucky twitch-dodge to cheating? Do you people really believe you somehow know The Only True Way To Play Every Single Shmup? Or are you testing how far you can push your bullshit just because you've done SOMETHING notable in shmup community?


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:08 am 


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edusword's truxton 2 run looks really suspicious in general, to me. he nmnb's the stage 3 boss, fighting it normally, at max power. he twitch dodges near the beginning of stage 4 where there's several reasonably obvious safespots. surely he would know about them by the time he can no miss. the beginning of stage 5 looks just as ridiculous as perikles's run, and he has bombs to boot. why isn't he using them? anyone who knows how dangerous that section is, if they get off route, is probably going to bomb due to the sheer number of bullets, all being obscured by explosions no less. and it doesn't even look like he tried to follow any kind of route for that section. he straight up looks like he doesn't know what he's doing. approaching that section in that way is suicide. i can't really speak for any of his other replays cuz i haven't watched them but the truxton 2 replay looks fuckin weird and doesn't look like the play of someone who can no miss the first loop

i could very well be wrong but thats just what it looks like to me
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:33 am 


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CyberAngel, there's a big difference between having a couple of luck dodges here and there, and having multiple consecutive luck dodges like edusword does in his stage 5 opener. Playing that part of the game as recklessly as he and Perikles did in their replays is, more likely than not, going to get you killed, especially with enemy bullets being covered by the giant explosions created by destroying the big red enemies. edusword in particular has less of an excuse for this, because like myco said, he had a few bombs in stock that he could've used at any point to clear the screen up and get back on track. Now, might everything seen during that part of the replay be humanly possible? Sure. Would I consider it a reliable and consistent way of getting through that section that I could recommend to other players of this game? Absolutely not.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:54 pm 


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Only other thing I'll say is this kind of petty drama is surely a large reason you don't see too many newbies trying out shmups. Outside of the toxic atmosphere in the Dota scene, I've not seen a community that likes to mudsling other players so often. And I've not been around too long, but I hear this is a tame version, that apparently used to there were more heated call-outs. Can't help but be amused when people ask "How do we get more people to play shmups?" on the Discord. I don't know, maybe stop doing this kind of stupid shit?


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:51 pm 


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we don't see newbies trying out shmups because its not a very attractive genre to most people. there's millions of dota players despite its supposedly toxic atmosphere, yeah?
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:12 am 


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What's a bigger issue, asking questions regarding suspicious play or having people complain about the genre constantly - without playing or sharing scores?
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:36 pm 


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wait are you trying to say the former Armed Formation F Formation No Autofire WR holder was full of shit after all these years


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:19 pm 


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Was feeling artistic today...This is how I see this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:27 pm 



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I sure love how this "community" shows more passion for silencing "complainers" than actually discussing cheating. And proves them right in the process.

But okay, I'll voice my thoughts on the video to prove I'm not complaining just for the sake of complaining. The non-Truxton II dodges are mundane, and including them destroys its credibility as an honest cheating callout. The sharp direction changes in Truxton II segment are nothing unusual for a keyboard player, and last I checked using MAME was okay outside Japan. They aren't done rapidly enough to suspect cheating like slowdown or savestate usage. And as even the "Experienced Shmup Players"™ agreed, it feels perfectly humanly possible, even if it lacks routing a master would have. Except once again, guess what, lucky clears happen, and "1CC collectors" that wouldn't play the game beyond that would be fine with something like that.

I'm not saying people shouldn't voice their concerns about possible cheating. What I'm saying is that the context should be taken into account as well. What has been posted here is a video with bogus claims that obviously came from the same shady place as the one before it. I understand this is a forum for shmups and not psychology, but even basic common sense should tell you to take something like this with a pinch of salt. What was the goal of doing that? And why is nobody else questioning it? Is it because of who dropped it here? Showing a shmup to 100,000 people and visiting a Japanese company's office don't make one better at catching cheaters, just sayin'.


Last edited by CyberAngel on Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:14 pm 


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Lags, you are a fucking retard and absolutely part of that 4chan/shmupg crowd. You would like nothing more than for the shmups community to burn. You're just as new to the community as I am, and you're more concerned with identifying cheaters than discussing shmups. Does that not seem the least bit suspicious?

Furthermore, that dramatic clip reel meant to damn edusword started off on the wrong foot. Donpachi stage 2 boss? Really? I do that same dodge every time and I suck at shmups. I'm not familiar enough with the other two games, but if that's one of the "examples" of his cheating, then I call into question the entire video. I don't care how much Flobeamer and mycophobia think they know Tatsujin Ou, if Donpachi stage 2 boss is meant to be evidence, you lose all credibility to me.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:40 pm 


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CyberAngel wrote:
The sharp direction changes in Truxton II segment are nothing unusual for a keyboard player, and last I checked using MAME was okay outside Japan. They aren't done rapidly enough to suspect cheating like slowdown or savestate usage. And as even the "Experienced Shmup Players"™ agreed, it feels perfectly humanly possible, even if it lacks routing a master would have. Except once again, guess what, lucky clears happen, and "1CC collectors" that wouldn't play the game beyond that would be fine with something like that.


You're out of your depth on this. If you actually played the game, as in, played enough FULL CREDITS that get beyond stage 2 or so, and not just played a savestate of a particular section over and over, you would understand that this is a uniquely demanding game in terms of routing and you don't want to leave certain parts up to luck.

The fact that, in a single run, he no miss no bombs the stage 3 boss at max power while fighting him head on, and then goes on to flail through the stage 5 opener without any kind of clear route and doing all sorts of dangerous shit while not bombing at all, is pretty good cause for suspicion. Not only is it unlikely that he could pull off both of these insanely risky maneuvers in a single no miss run, the fact that he even attempts them seems to exhibit a lack of knowledge about the game; knowledge that you would naturally accumulate over the hours and hours of play required to even do a basic 1CC, much less no-miss.

Again, I can't entirely dismiss that maybe this dude is just a golden god of reaction dodging, but I have to err on the side of suspicion on this, and I really wish that you and blossom could ignore the shmupg ppl's trolling for a little bit and not be so hyper-defensive when this comes up.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:15 am 


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It would take more hours in failed runs to get a "lucky clear" of Tatsujin Ou than it would for you to just route the damn thing properly. Nothing is stopping players from defending their clears with live streams. If you aren't willing to defend your clears then you shouldn't be posting your clears/scores for the world to see. Glory ain't free.

I'd rather have a dead community than a community full of scrubs and cheaters.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:18 am 



Joined: 16 Feb 2019
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Yep, totally no elitism or gatekeeping going on here. My apologies, clearly this community has no toxicity whatsoever and it's all caused by an outsider group of shmup hate-fans with no connections to any prominent locals. Oh well, time to go grind up some WRs ^_~


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:27 am 


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debating if a player mightve cheated is toxic and not discussing shmups apparently, even though it has to do with shmups

but calling someone a fucking retard or toxic is fine

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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:45 am 


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I'm still dying to hear why Donpachi is included in that clip reel.

Also, I'll be sure to watch next time any of you stream Tatsujin Ou and scrutinize every move you make that falls out of line with your established route. That'll be a fun time.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:50 am 



Joined: 16 Feb 2019
Posts: 163
I have no problem with Flobeamer or mycophobia, their perspectives are valuable for the matter at hand, but they're not the only ones posting here.

But sure, misrepresent my posts all you want. Clearly, that's SO much more productive than my own input.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:09 am 


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I'll just say that I don't want it to be the case that edusword cheated his Truxton II run. Who knows? Maybe we are underestimating him, and he really is that good at twitch dodging, and beating insanely hard games like that without requiring much knowledge of them. But as things stand right now, and as someone who's been playing a lot of Truxton II over the past few months, I can't help but remain suspicious. I just can't ignore the oddities in this run.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:37 pm 


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I see no issue with calling out cheaters as long as there's sufficient evidence. There's no community that allows cheaters unless they're covering for them or unaware of what they're looking at in the runs.

FWIW, I have most of Perikles' videos. I also have heard sikraiken and Plasmo have a bunch of them, so definitely ask them for uploads! Personally, I intended to upload them, but after receiving a bunch of requests I've started to realize I dislike the ideal of newbies/players using highly suspect videos that they'll use as reference points for tournaments like Calice, as it's giving people a false understanding of what the standard is and what's possible. A cheated run played with a 0.5 speedhack in CheatEngine and no route isn't going to help you get better at the game.

Just like secret replays, most people don't care about the actual game. They're only wanting what they can't have, they only want it because it's private. Actually wanting footage they themselves can put into practice is a negligible thing in this genre.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:03 pm 


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are full of red flags, havent looked at other replays
The samurai shmups clan does not approve, must gatekeep HARDER! this guy is defiling yotuube
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:20 pm 


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I must admit that Gus' initial clip is not the most convincing collection of suspicious dodges (Donpachi is absolutely fine) but it essentially hits the nail on the head, most notably with Truxton II.

The biggest red flag I can find is his Battle Bakraid replay. Replay Yakuza HQ just called me - they want their money back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAid0uIreAo

He casually almost reaches max rank, which is not only absurd to survive, but also absolutely not necessary to begin with. The run becomes a complete stockpile of obviously cheated dodges, possibly with the help of slowdown again. The fake is so obvious that we probably don't even need to scrutinize the gameplay here again. This is a good example of a replay that is actually very misleading for beginners of the game. This is not how you approach a Bakraid 1cc.

Furthermore, he explicitly states in the video description that he would be playing on default settings whereas he has set the extend settings to Garegga-style (no extend items) instead of the default Batrider-style (extend items). This makes the game significantly easier as you can also gain extra lives during boss fights.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:27 pm 


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I thought Replay Yakuza is just team name in Calice right now, didn't know it's this big. Are you joining the tourney too with different username?
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:16 pm 


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Donpachi: Why was this clip even included? The Perikles video a while back also had the same problem with introducing the evidence with something that is absurdly easy to do in a real run of said game. Stop opening these things with bad evidence that is some kind of "filler" that only hurts the case.

Viper Phase 1: Haven't played this game longer than 10 minutes, but definitely seems unnatural.

Truxton 2: As for what Mycophobia said about the stage 3 boss, while it is stupid to fight the 3rd boss keep in mind that this is Truxton 2 where it is immensely easier. Not saying that it gets him off the hook, but you could technically fight the boss and it isn't impossible to NMNB without timeout like it would be in T-Oh.

As for the 5th stage though, I don't recall anyone ever trying to do pacifism strat in loop 1 Truxton 2 especially where it's just easier to route this part with green/red thanks to the reduced difficulty. In T-Oh I understand a possible solution with pacifism on this part but in Truxton 2 it's really kinda overkill and messing it up ever will get you killed so I'm really not convinced of the play seen in the video.
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