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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:47 pm 


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I don't care that you don't respect me, you haven't shown any. I'm not replying you for fame or your respect but for what I believe is better for the DDP high score thread. I think it takes someone who is open to discuss things and acknowledge different opinions and possibilities, so I hope you go.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 5:13 pm 


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chempop wrote:
Please keep the tables split like you have, it is the FAR PREFERRED system and actually encourages people to use some different ships for a change.


Prometheus wrote:
It's a bit weird to have lots of tables with some of them nearly empty, but I don't mind, and it can encourage people to fill them indeed.


Prometheus wrote:
Thanks for not contributing in a smart and constructive way.


If you are going to say I'm not smart or constructive, at least disagree with me instead of reiterating my point.

The previous topic only included Top 5 Split and did not allow space for beginners to post multiple scores, so it really seems like what's important to you is seeing your name high on the lists, not that you are looking out for the needs of the entire community. In fact, I recently went and cleared the first loop with 5 different ship types, but couldn't post any scores because they didn't exceed my high score, so what Despatche has done actually encourages me to play the game. I understand you have your opinion and that's fine, but I have a strong feeling that the majority of players will disagree with it and that is something you just might have to accept. Just like I have accepted that my scores will never reach those of the players who practice with save states, but I don't demand PCB ONLY lists, I accept that the majority of high scores were accomplished by players who resort to practicing games using cheats because they are impatient.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 5:25 pm 


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Keeping an expanded general table won't help getting my name higher. I am defending that scores in DDP are comparable between ships, it is part of the beauty of it. Among other things. Also I don't cheat. Thanks again.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:33 am 


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Despatche has the right idea about splitting and his arguments for it are sound and I'm in agreement, however there is no reason why you can't have an overall table in addition. in some cases there's so many categories that it's difficult to get an overview of how people place. you could say that oh, it doesn't matter where you would place on an overall table, only where you place within your category, but I don't think that's entirely true and clearly many people also don't think that's true.

splitting is superior but the best way imo is always to have both an overall table (if there's varying difficulties, one per difficulty) and a table for each category, and I fail to see why that wouldn't make everyone happy.

also you have to understand that Despatche has been doing every thread this way and already has his reasons for it so it's kind of late to have this discussion now. It's a plus if the systems behind each thread is consistent so if you all want him to remove splitting on this thread then you are indirectly telling him to remove splitting for every other game.

just have both overall table and individual tables
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:30 pm 


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yeah but if dude takes control of a score thread we play then we all at the mercy of his whims cos he only cares about what he wants not the actual players.dude is taking over nearly every thread and imposing his rules liek a nazi.
quoting despatche
"If it were a small detail, it'd be fine, but this is really serious."

you need to get outside dude you take this stuff far too seriously really. i suffer from mental illness problems myself and you should probably get checked out.not being mean just being real
i know it's cos you care a lot and youur heart is in the right place but you need to bend a bit to be someone people would like to sort out score threads.
the fact this happens in most of your score threads shows YOU are the problem no matter how many long winded self important posts you make
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:50 pm 


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charlie chong wrote:
yeah but if dude takes control of a score thread we play then we all at the mercy of his whims cos he only cares about what he wants not the actual players.dude is taking over nearly every thread and imposing his rules liek a nazi.
quoting despatche
"If it were a small detail, it'd be fine, but this is really serious."

you need to get outside dude you take this stuff far too seriously really. i suffer from mental illness problems myself and you should probably get checked out.not being mean just being real
i know it's cos you care a lot and youur heart is in the right place but you need to bend a bit to be someone people would like to sort out score threads.
the fact this happens in most of your score threads shows YOU are the problem no matter how many long winded self important posts you make


Can't tell if serious. My troll detector is malfunctioning.

Some mod should probably clean up here anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:22 pm 


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I just want to say I agree with Chum. If you have both, everyone's happy.

I'm not sure if Prometheus mentioned this, but one (possible) benefit to having a general table is that if you have a friend who's also working the game, you can directly challenge each-other's scores even if your both playing different ships (which is probably a strong possibility, as far as probability is concerned). I could see this being a good motivator for some people.

I don't want to have an argument and I won't be posting or reading this mess again, just wanted to throw in my two cents.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:07 pm 



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The Gradius V board did a general table and specific tables per type and it works out perfectly. Yes, it is more work to maintain, but is it really that big of a deal if you are only limiting the general table to 5 entries like in this thread (I'd argue the general table should be a top 10 but that's not my call)? I like looking at the general table to quickly see the best scores and what they are achieved with. If you want more specific data you can go to the specific boards per ship/type. Restartsyndrome.com also does this (although the tables are autogenerated).
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:28 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
I'm not sure if Prometheus mentioned this, but one (possible) benefit to having a general table is that if you have a friend who's also working the game, you can directly challenge each-other's scores even if your both playing different ships (which is probably a strong possibility, as far as probability is concerned). I could see this being a good motivator for some people.

Exactly :) I didn't mention this directly, but that's something I've always loved about score threads and in particular DDP which is often active/reactivated and people play different ships and talk and challenge or help each other. The general table is useful to that, and if it's capped, it only shows the top scores so it doesn't work as well. It's really good and fun to have a full general table :)
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:34 pm 


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Because let's be honest here fellas, comparing numbers that are on different lists is really difficult for some people.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:38 pm 


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Yeah you can also easily make up split tables in your head watching the general table^^ there are other arguments for the general table, you don't necessarily compare with only just one person. Seriously it's best to just have both. Again I'll just say I can take the thread, or somebody else who wants to do it.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:48 pm 


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I understand the reasoning about splitting the tables, I did prefer the old way for this game though. None of the ships are particularly inherently so bad that they are unusable, there may not be a super great reason to play with A-S for example but it still isn't useless. I had no issue with the general + top 5 tables of each ship like before...but to each their own. If a war must break out so that we must decide on who gets to control numbers...then so be it.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:23 am 


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I really like the idea of the different lists encouraging people to play different ships, because let's face it - not everyone is gonna put in the amount of effort the top player is putting in. But with the ship lists, they could at least focus on one ship and still achieve a goal. When you don't have realistic goals, you're very likely to give up. That's also why I think STGT would be more fun with varied ship games, so people could focus on different ships and earn some decent points for their teams.

But the general table is fun, and not too weird in a close game like this. So my suggestion would be to just display the ship lists prominently, and put the general table at the bottom as a fun thing.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:41 pm 


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That was basically what I had in mind. Only six scores in this thread even matter right now, so I just did a mock version of DDP's in-game table. I kinda wanted to just edit the in-game table itself, but that's too much work for this club.

Obviously, I don't really want to expand it anyway, even if more great scores appear. I don't want it to be there at all, because it's wrong to have it. I know having a general table is going to make a few people "happy", but the vast majority simply don't care either way, and it really truly is wrong to even have such a table.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:57 pm 


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Despatche wrote:
Only six scores in this thread even matter right now


What a great attitude. Really fostering that community spirit. I'm glad you run so many scoreboards here.

Actually, why do you run so many scoreboards? You're always complaining about this place being a shithole and everyone having it in for you.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:57 pm 


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Separate tables for each ship is defintely the way to go. In many games (particularly if there's a great variety in playstyles) each ship is almost a different game when it comes to scoring and it makes no sense to compare them with each other in-game. But of course a general list is nice to have to compare how all the players do, and there's no reason why both types can't coexist.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:22 am 


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So here's a suggestion: why don't you keep a complete single table in an externally linked file like what MrMonkeyMan does in his Espgaluda thread, and leave the OP of the score thread as the split tables?
That way, all the whiny girls can have their full compiled table, and Despatche can run the split tables as usual.

Also, I'll wait until this discussion is resolved before I chop the conversation out of the thread.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:37 am 


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whiny girls


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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:55 am 


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Icarus is a real saint. He used to "just" be one of the best members of the community, but then he became the mod we needed and even overhauled the entire Hi Scores forum. Don't know what we'd do without him.

Hagane wrote:
Separate tables for each ship is defintely the way to go. In many games (particularly if there's a great variety in playstyles) each ship is almost a different game when it comes to scoring and it makes no sense to compare them with each other in-game. But of course a general list is nice to have to compare how all the players do, and there's no reason why both types can't coexist.

You outline the exact problem: it doesn't make sense to begin with. These are not sides to choose from, these are not two different ways of displaying the same information. Adding a proper general list is nonsensical tradition that pleases some very specific people, and others are trying to pacify these people without understanding the problem.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:14 am 


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I'd say a general list is still useful for quickly checking how different players compare. A matter of convenience, mostly, and not the big deal some seem to believe, in my opinion, but it doesn't hurt to give both sides what they want.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:33 am 


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That is the very problem. It's not convenient at all, because it's completely misleading. It has zero meaning outside of equally meaningless tradition.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:19 am 


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Whiny girls? No thanks for Despatche as OP, he can go, he's a whiny girl I guess. I can make the next thread, unless someone else wants to.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:13 pm 


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PROMETHEUS wrote:
Whiny girls? No thanks for Despatche as OP, he can go, he's a whiny girl I guess. I can make the next thread, unless someone else wants to.


Prom, you have no right to go and declare that someone isn't fit for maintaining a thread and attempt to supplant them as a result - I think you'll find that Despatche is free to maintain a score thread any way he wants as long as he keeps it active, and you'll also find we have a history of people taking over score threads here and changing the format without the huge uproar that apparently follows this thread. If I find you trying to start up a new thread without good reason, I'll be deleting your thread on sight.

While I do think Despatche could be a little more receptive to criticism overall, as someone who used to maintain score threads around here myself, I too would find it offensive just how aggressively some people are attempting to force their will on things here. I think the compromise I suggested in an earlier post is a good enough solution to the demands of both sides.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:40 pm 


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The issue is that Despatche aggressively tried to force his will here, calling what we requested and had before literally useless, meaningless and wrong, our arguments ridiculous, that he is just fixing problems, etc. Talking to people who are much more knowledgeable than him about the game in topic, and who are players who use this thread and have invested a lot in achieving the scores that appear in it. He stepped up by suggesting he should just tell people who disagree to fuck off. Why do you then come in here as moderator calling people who want something different "whiny girls" ? Don't you understand that there is an issue with someone taking over the thread and behaving this way ? Why not let someone else have it who is more open to discussion and suggestions ? Shouldn't we be able to have a full general table show here as before if that's what some of us want, rather than send it away to a external link ?

We're actually quite open to compromise, since we're all okay with having split tables show as well..
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:15 pm 


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First of all, it's a thread format Despatche maintains throughout the rest of his threads, and he has good reason to maintain his threads this way - standardisation in scoreboard formatting is something that is sorely needed in this particular section of the site, and if this goes towards achieving that, then so be it. While I do think that Despatche could be a little less standoffish and more receptive to suggestions and criticism, I do agree with a lot of his points that he makes about the older consolidated format being outdated - some people mentioned the Garegga thread as an example where both table styles exist, however contrary to popular belief, the Top 10 in the Garegga thread is rarely up-to-date and is also a terrible idea simply because the scoring balance between the ships is so badly skewed that the Top 10 inevitably is filled by people playing Gain.

The other reason why a consolidated table is always a bad idea for a score thread is that, even if the game may give off an air of having some scoring balance between ships, it inevitably favours the ships/characters that are easiest to score with - just take a look at the various games where there is one selection that makes scoring/survival trivial or easy, eg Strikers 1945 II (Flying Pancake), Strikers 1999 (X36), Batsugun Special (Beltiana), Raiden Fighters 2 (Fairy over Slave), the list is endless. A split table, while inherently harder to maintain as there's more to organise, actually favours competition better because

1. there are more tables for people, even beginners, to place on,
2. it is easier to see progression for your particular selection,
3. less popular picks can potentially explode into a mass of activity,
4. placing in a split table requires skill with the selection rather than simply picking the highest scoring ship, and
5. specialists have an excuse to play all the ship selections.

While there are positives to a consolidated table - seeing how you rank amongst the player base - for the reasons above the format isn't the most suitable for any game that has a number of selectable ships.

The other thing is that while Despatche inevitably brought it on himself by being aggressive and confrontational in his replies, it's also not a good idea to exacerbate the problem by announcing that you or someone else should take it over - it achieves nothing except making you look just as childish as the person you're trying to denounce. As a mod, my job here is to maintain order, and if I have to make an example of you or anyone else along the way to keeping order, then I will.

As I've said before, there's a suitable compromise to this supposed "problem" - I've already outlined it in my first reply to this thread - and both sides should take it away and consider it. And if it gets implemented, then both sides should suck it up and stop throwing their toys out of the pram. I certainly won't be losing any sleep no matter what happens. There are far more important things to get all uppity over.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:01 pm 


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Make sure you don't call people "whiny girls" in such a context as a moderator who wants to maintain order then. Also consider that both kind of tables being shown in the OP is a most reasonable compromise as DDP is no Garegga (I'm no judge on Garegga which I don't play), there is a lot of meaning in comparing scores between ships in DDP which are all quite able to score very high, and people may find it fun to get ranked and displayed all together and have expressed they would like it. Even where imbalances exist this may still be interesting, including as a way to show them. Finally, I do think that in the event someone doesn't show good will to listen, adapt and respect the people who use their service, there should be room left for others to do it.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:16 pm 


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Just as a conciliatory proposal: since you have the second post in this thread, PROMETHEUS, you could just edit and maintain the general table in that one. Then we had all the different tables in the opening post and a general table in the second one, doesn't sound too terrible to me. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:10 pm 


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hahaha that's awesome proposal man :D
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:11 pm 


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PROMETHEUS wrote:
Make sure you don't call people "whiny girls" in such a context as a moderator who wants to maintain order then. Also consider that both kind of tables being shown in the OP is a most reasonable compromise as DDP is no Garegga (I'm no judge on Garegga which I don't play), there is a lot of meaning in comparing scores between ships in DDP which are all quite able to score very high, and people may find it fun to get ranked and displayed all together and have expressed they would like it. Even where imbalances exist this may still be interesting, including as a way to show them.


Suggestion noted, but I'll mod the forum in any way that I see fit, thank you.

As for this thread, having both types in the OP is a compromise, however it is entirely up to Despatche if and how he wants to implement it as this is his thread, whether by short table, long table, external file, whatever. That said, Perikles' suggestion is also agreeable. There are a few resolutions here, it's up to you guys to decide which one is the most suitable. The other less-popular-for-the-majority-option is that Despatche runs it how he wants. I don't care either way as long as it is kept up to date.

Finally, as for this:

PROMETHEUS wrote:
Finally, I do think that in the event someone doesn't show good will to listen, adapt and respect the people who use their service, there should be room left for others to do it.


You had your chance to run it, and you missed it. You should now do exactly what you suggest, and adapt to however the new owner wants to run it, within reason.
You can go ahead and maintain a consolidated table in the second post, if Despatche doesn't mind. I'm going to make it absolutely clear that it's entirely on you to keep that table up to date though, and if you can't at least match Despatche's frequency in updating the tables, its not his problem if it isn't.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:22 pm 


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Icarus wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote:
Finally, I do think that in the event someone doesn't show good will to listen, adapt and respect the people who use their service, there should be room left for others to do it.


You had your chance to run it, and you missed it. You should now do exactly what you suggest, and adapt to however the new owner wants to run it, within reason.

Yeah I was not made aware the thread was being given up. It goes both ways man, definitely not unilateral players to maintainer, like Erppo said. Unwillingness to adapt came from Despatche dude. Well, I just happen to have a little room here even if you said you will prevent that it exists in a different thread.
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