split threads vs consolidated thread (split from DDP)

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Despatche
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by Despatche »

I was terse, but never openly rude. I was only terse at all because there's not really a better way to explain the problem, and because PROM and co. are people who are supposed to know better. I didn't even think to insult anyone until I got insulted first.

It would be wrong of me to "adapt" to something that's clearly fundamentally broken. You are ignoring that there's even a problem, and now you don't even want to hear the explanation anymore. Does that really sound like something that needs a compromise? Who's really "refusing to adapt" here?

edit: Man, I'm still trying to be somewhat reasonable, and all you're doing is treating me like scum.
Last edited by Despatche on Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by PROMETHEUS »

I think the correct answer is very simple and short : you.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by trap15 »

Kiss and make up. Despatche do the split boards in the OP, PROM do his silly combined board in the reply. Everybody is happy.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by PROMETHEUS »

Yeah I'm on it soon silly.

Despatche will you keep your top 5 up there? Best scores shown first is nice, no shame in that. I did something like that on my Mushihimesama thread. At Ebisen top scores are clearly displayed on the wall, and only those I think (#1 for different games). Maybe it doesn't matter to others, but I think it's nice and fair, that your score is up there too if you play type B or C and rank high.

lol it makes me think, what if we reversed lists sometimes and #1 is at the bottom instead

:P everything is possible
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by PROMETHEUS »

Icarus wrote:I'm going to make it absolutely clear that it's entirely on you to keep that table up to date though, and if you can't at least match Despatche's frequency in updating the tables, its not his problem if it isn't.
One last thing, I'm going to make it absolutely clear that it is not your problem either.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by Eaglet »

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moozooh wrote:I think that approach won't get you far in Garegga.
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Re: Dodonpachi

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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by ArrogantBastard »

PROMETHEUS wrote:
Icarus wrote:I'm going to make it absolutely clear that it's entirely on you to keep that table up to date though, and if you can't at least match Despatche's frequency in updating the tables, its not his problem if it isn't.
One last thing, I'm going to make it absolutely clear that it is not your problem either.
You should have just walked away from this one.
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Re: Dodonpachi

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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by Icarus »

PROMETHEUS wrote:
Icarus wrote:I'm going to make it absolutely clear that it's entirely on you to keep that table up to date though, and if you can't at least match Despatche's frequency in updating the tables, its not his problem if it isn't.
One last thing, I'm going to make it absolutely clear that it is not your problem either.
*sigh* I expected better things from you, Prom.

As much as I respect you as a player, I do often find you to be incredibly arrogant and conceited, and your constant desire to have the last word in everything really grates my nerves. Considering I was already happy with the resolution and quite content to leave the matter to rest, for you to come back and openly show me disrespect disappoints me greatly, both as someone who knows you in real life, and as a moderator of this forum.

Now considering you were openly hostile to another user by threatening to start up another thread in spite of the effort they had put in, and the fact that I had warned you that I don't care about you or anyone else's standing on this forum in regards to your behaviour and punishment, I'm going to revoke your posting rights for a few days. Do I think the punishment is harsh? Perhaps. Because it's you, this decision was hard for me, because I had seen your post hours ago and had to sleep on the response. But as ArrogantBastard had said, you should have walked away. I already did, until you came back with the parting shot.

I'm leaving this message here as a reminder over the next four days before I strip the discussion out of the thread, so that you see it. If you want to complain about it, take it to Ghegs or system11b.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by DMC »

Despatche do the split boards in the OP, PROM do his silly combined board in the reply.
I am strongly favoring general tables for a game, regardless of ship balance. In fact, I find split tables quite uninteresting or even misleading.

In my opinion, if you want to compare hi scores (i.e., score as high as possible) it's up to you as a player to select the ship with the greatest scoring potential for you. Finding a ship that maximizes your scoring potential is part of the task, and very often ships with greater maximum scores are more difficult to handle. For example, in Soukyugurentai the most difficult ship to handle has a higher maximum multiplier than the ship that is the easiest to handle. Second, ships with higher scoring potential are naturally more popular, which means that there is greater competition there. Split tables falsely imply that, all else being equal, a player who is handicaping himself with a poor ship with less competition is doing better than another player who chooses the good ship with more competition.

The sports analogy would be something like this. Instead of running against Usain Bolt you decide to amputate one of your legs just to win the special olympics. Good for you, but I still regard Usain as the fastest (or whoever is running fastest nowadays).

Edit: And some more personal examples:
In 19XX (stgt 06) I selected Mosquito because I found it easier to get a reasonably hi score with that one, whereas Lightning/Sinden had higher potential but were more difficult for me to master.
In Garegga, I found Wild Snail much more easy to use than Gain even though the latter had greater potential generally.
In Darius Gaiden I selected the upper stage route because it was easier, even though the lower routes had higher scoring potential (shall we have split tables for all routes in Darius games too then?).
In Batrider I selected Strawman in my team because it was easier to survive with that one, and failed to explore Car-pet which, it turned out, had higher scoring potential. Others explored car-pet and found new sources for scoring, and for this they rightfully deserve higher places.

All these ship/stage selections were strategic decisions, trying to get the most of my score within my boundaries. Having split tables ignores ship-selection which is an important strategic part of getting a hi-score.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by Hagane »

That would make sense in a versus game such as a fighting game, but none whatsoever in a score based game. Rather than your Bolt analogy, I'd see different ships as different disciplines within the olympics or something like that. Choosing a different ship often varies the game wildly, demanding different skillsets, especially in games with high variety among ships. Which is why Dariusburst's extensive scoring tables are excellent and should be imitated by every upcoming STG. In that game playing with Assault is completely different from using Genesis or Legend or Origin, and different zones have very different scoring limits. So it has a general table for each zone, and it also keeps track of the best scores per ship. Just think if it just kept track of the overall best score regardless of ship and zone: everything would be Assault CFJ or QUZ. I couldn't use other ships I find fun like Gaiden and Genesis and should ignore other fun routes just because those are overall the highest scoring.

A player who chooses a ship that doesn't score as high isn't "handicapping" himself, he's choosing the ship he finds interesting. And a separate score table gauges how far the player has taken that ship, which is definitely something worth gauging. And taking a lesser ship to its limits is just as skilled as doing the same with a higher scoring one.

Having only general tables limits the playerbase because, if one wants to compete seriously, he is forced to pick the best scoring ship in the game because, as oppossed to something like fighting games in which the best character could be beat by one which is not the absolute best, in an STG the best ship will always win. And really, gauging how good the players are is the main thing a score table should do, but having only general tables puts a lot of importance in gauging how good for scoring the individual ships are, which is not as relevant. What if I want to push a lesser ship that I find more fun to use to the limit?

So to me having both tables is clearly the best approach, even if it takes a bit more effort to do.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by DMC »

Rather than your Bolt analogy, I'd see different ships as different disciplines within the olympics or something like that. Choosing a different ship often varies the game wildly
I disagree with your analogy, because different olympic disciplines have different external rules/game elements (that is, they are different games).
In contrast, regardless of which ship you choose, the enemies come in the same form, the same numbers, in the same positions, and importantly, they give you the same base points*. The only thing that has changed is you (this includes your ship and its weapons), and how you strategically choose to approach the game.

The game developer lets you choose how to strategically approach the game by allowing you to select different ships with different strategies, but all the external parts of the game are identical regardless of ship selection. And a majority of ship selection games typically design some ship for beginners with less scoring potential and some ship for advanced. The developers many times even tell you what the strength and weaknesses of different ships are so you can choose the one that suits your strategy or level of ability. And critically, virtually all games use general tables for all ships but have split tables for difficulty levels and modes (in which enemies come in different forms and numbers). It all point to the one conclusion: ships are part of stragetic choices that make you approach the same game with different strategies.

My two somewhat rhetorical questions to split-table-for-ships advocates:
1. When selecting a game mode to play--such as White label vs Black label, Original vs Maniac Futari. When selecting, do you consider which mode you can get the largest score number with? I assume "no". It would be silly to compare scores in original and maniac mode in Futari, for instance. The modes give you different points and enemies come in different forms. Virtually all games (except some Cave port failure I recall) understands this and have split tables for modes. Instead, you base your mode selection decision on other aspects that I guess boils down to some enjoyment factor. Okay, good. So choose one mode then. Next.

2. When you are at the ship selection screen, do you hi score players seriously not consider which ship you get the highest score number with when you choose ship? I think you do. So, then at least implicitly you actually do compare scores of different ships. Or do you mean that you entirely base your decision on other aspects? At least I almost always consider scoring when I select ship. Enemies give the same points, they come in same numbers, they have the same strength, etc. Stages are the same, scoring system works the same. The game developer do not split these tables for good reasons.
A player who chooses a ship that doesn't score as high isn't "handicapping" himself, he's choosing the ship he finds interesting.
I perfectly understand the choice criterion ("interesting"), but it is irrelevant to this section labelled "hi scores". Here we compare our best scores.

I agree that that both general tables and split tables is a nice compromise. Split tables can encourage people to explore less populare ships and find new scoring sources. Despatche's solution here is nice although I would have liked the general table to be expanded a bit. I also would like to add that Despatche is doing a great job keeping the hi score section alive, and the ambition to arrange a fair competion is admirable. However, ship selection is a part of the game, an important strategic part that should not be trivialized.


*esprade might be an exception in which different characters have different stage orders.
Last edited by DMC on Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by trap15 »

I hate playing as Gain so I guess I just should stop playing Garegga for score then? There's much more to ship choice than the score potential.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by DMC »

I hate playing as Gain so I guess I just should stop playing Garegga for score then?
No, that's a straw man argument. I have not argued anything like that. All I am saying is that your ship choice limits your ability to rank high on the game and you should consider it if ranking high on the forum's hi score section is part of your motivation. If you hate using bombs that will also limit you. If you hate stage C in Darius because the stage is ugly that might also limit your scoring. You can still make your selections based on interest, but it is inevitable that you limit your chances of ranking high in the hi score section. That's all.
There's much more to ship choice than the score potential.
Yeah, play the one you enjoy but keep in mind it influences your ranking, if hi scoring and comparing scores here is a priority of yours.

If we take DDP as an example. If I go in here (a hi score thread, I might add!) i might be interested in what are the top players in DDP. Apparently, the three best players in DDP here are Prometheus, Abandoned Witch, and Erppo. I can see that Prales is the best one with Type B, and it certainly is a great score, but if he wants to be a top 3 player he needs to score better with B or switch ship. It's his choice, maybe he doesn't care about that because he find B more fun to play - that's his choice.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by Hagane »

DMC wrote: In contrast, regardless of which ship you choose, the enemies come in the same form, the same numbers, in the same positions, and importantly, they give you the same base points*. The only thing that has changed is you (this includes your ship and its weapons), and how you strategically choose to approach the game.
The ship you choose necessarily changes how you approach strategy. Even if the stage is the same, changing the ship significantly alters how the game is played. It doesn't make sense to separate the stage and enemies from the ships when it comes to game mechanics, both are integral to how the game plays. Dodonpachi would play significantly differently if it had Garegga ships instead of what it has. How the ships play is part of the scoring system; scoring isn't just limited to general mechanics.
And critically, virtually all games use general tables for all ships but have split tables for difficulty levels and modes (in which enemies come in different forms and numbers). It all point to the one conclusion: ships are part of stragetic choices that make you approach the same game with different strategies.
Not having tables for ships is a bad design decision, and Dariusburst has set a new standard when it comes to score tracking. Why lump Assault with Origin when they have completely different playstyles (and multipliers) and scoring potentials? Hopefully developers realize this is the way to go for future releases.
My two somewhat rhetorical questions to split-table-for-ships advocates:
I pick whatever ship feels nice to play. Often they are strong ships, sometimes not, and many times I like several ships but I'm forced by bad scorekeeping to use the most optimal to compete.

It is much more important to measure player strenght than ship strenght, and general tables focus too much on ship strenght. Also, in many instances "weaker" ships are much more technical than the highest scoring ones. Take Koyori in Sengoku Blade for example, who score less than Aine or Katana yet is extremely hard to play skillfully as you have to constantly pointblank enemies with your familiar. Why should she be ignored in a score table when playing her is such a different and demanding experience?

Again, having both is the best, but having only general tables is definitely inferior and needs to go away.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by DMC »

Well, we agree on having both kinds of tables so I guess the debate is of academic interest.
Hagane wrote:
DMC wrote: In contrast, regardless of which ship you choose, the enemies come in the same form, the same numbers, in the same positions, and importantly, they give you the same base points*. The only thing that has changed is you (this includes your ship and its weapons), and how you strategically choose to approach the game.
The ship you choose necessarily changes how you approach strategy. Even if the stage is the same, changing the ship significantly alters how the game is played. It doesn't make sense to separate the stage and enemies from the ships when it comes to game mechanics, both are integral to how the game plays. Dodonpachi would play significantly differently if it had Garegga ships instead of what it has. How the ships play is part of the scoring system; scoring isn't just limited to general mechanics.
The game mechanics in DDP are the same regardless of ship choice. You get the same number of enemies, same number of base points, the chaining works in the same way, etc. The game is the same. Your strategy is different because you have different weapons. But the ship is a choice, just as other in-game choices (like power ups in gradius or pick-up weapons in strania or twinbee). It is the same for every player, because every player has the choice.
It's like a horse race in which the game allows you to select shoes or no shoes for your horse. It will lead to different strategies, but everyone has the same choice, and the developer/rule maker explicitly allows it.

Darius Burst might be a good exception then. The developer maybe did not try to balance the ships and decided to split the tables accordingly. As you can see, most game developers try to balance ships with some having better primary weapons, some better secondary weapons, and some better speed.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by Hagane »

If your approach to the game changes radically the game is not the same at all. It doesn't matter if everything comes in the same order or the base score is the same, your ship itself is part of the mechanics and changing ships is often like playing a different version of that same stage. You change strategy because the most important mechanic (your ship) has changed, and what worked for other ships doesn't work know.

Instead of your horse race example, I'd say an STG is a race. You can pick a car, or a horse, or run on foot, and even if the course is the same the experience will be different and require vastly different skills. It would not make sense to compare the times of those options of course, everyone would pick the car (unless it was a Darius like race that would make the horse better in wooded courses and the car on asphalt courses, ha).

In Dariusburst the ships are so wildly different (some having burst, bursts being extremely different from ship to ship, different shots and multipliers, etc) that having the kind of score tables it has is even more of an obvious necessity, but they can and should be applied to any STG that cares about scoreplay. It doesn't make sense to "balance" (homogenize) ships in an STG since it's not a versus game and perfect balance is impossible; more so than in a fighting game ship variety is the most important. Most developers have lots of ship variety (and very different scoring potentials as a result), anyways. They kept using general score tables as a tradition they didn't care enough to change, but thankfully Pyramid/Taito realized they could be improved.

In any case yeah, this issue has been solved so any further discussion is only for the sake of arguing.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by DMC »

Hagane wrote:If your approach to the game changes radically the game is not the same at all.
I guess we just disagree here and can get no further. :D
I say it is you, the player, who change, not the game. I argued specifically why the game doesnt change (same number of enemies, same points), but I don't think you have argued specifically how the game has changed, have you?
You can pick a car, or a horse, or run on foot, and even if the course is the same the experience will be different and require vastly different skills. It would not make sense to compare the times of those options of course, everyone would pick the car
Well, I cannot drive a car nor ride a horse, so I would run and settle for a lower-tier position! :mrgreen: Most stg developers at least strive to balance their ships to enhance strategic elements.

I like your Darius Burst example though, it seems to be a good exception in which the developer consider the ships incomparable (there is no general table there though?).

My general take is that the developer is the default rule maker. If ships are freely selected and belonging to a combined table according to the developer, that is the default for hi scoring. We should only change those default rules when there is a clear consensus/strong agreement for doing so.
The hi scoring community could change the rules if we believe that it would make hi scoring more interesting. Darius Gaiden autofire might be an example of that with a minority of counteradvocates. For instance, if you arranged a poll and found out that separate tables in DDP are supported that is fine, or if few objected to the OP that would be fine too.
But as it stands, you overule the developer and a substantial part of hi scoring community (including two of the top three scorers, that is, those who contributes the most) without consensus.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by trap15 »

Except Arcadia, the de-facto WR recording publication, splits by ship. The Japanese also came to the conclusion the ships are not comparable.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by Shepardus »

If the ship plays differently the game has changed, as the ship is part of the game. The game is about how you use the ship in the context of the levels, so changing either the ship or the levels is a change to the game. In games like Hellsinker character selection arguably makes even more of a difference than your choice of stages (you've got choices in both; changing character doesn't change the stages, and vice versa). Dodonpachi's ships are more similar but that doesn't mean they don't change the game.
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Re: Dodonpachi

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Except Arcadia, the de-facto WR recording publication, splits by ship. The Japanese also came to the conclusion the ships are not comparable.
Yeah, a different scoring community, albeit a prominent one, and one game developer vs other scoring communities and virtually all other game developers. Don't forget that we are a smaller community so the conditions are not the same as over there. This is DDP, one of the most popular games in the community and Type B table has one(!) score. I think it will take a lot of time before the Type B table gets interesting. With an overall table, that player doesn't need to look back and forth between several tables to see how he is doing. And this is just with three ships. Many other games would have an unreadable amounts of table. We should just do a poll that is interesting for once and be done with it--or simply have both kinds.

*Edited spelling/typos
Last edited by DMC on Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by trap15 »

It's already concluded there will be both.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by DMC »

Trap, yes, I guess that is true.
Shepardus wrote:If the ship plays differently the game has changed, as the ship is part of the game.
In chess you can select which character you like to use when your pawn has reached the other line. It's still the same game, as the selection is part of the rules, and it is the same for everyone.
You mean that we play two different games if I choose a Queen or a Knight? I will play differently with them. The strategies will be different. But I would say that the game is still the same.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotion_(chess)
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by Shepardus »

I'd say promotion in chess is more analogous to your poweup/upgrade selection in Gradius, while choosing a different ship is more like choosing to play Fischer Random chess or choosing your ship type in Gradius (like the options following behavior, laser type, etc.). The way I see it the game starts after choosing your ship, but I guess you see it differently.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by pestro87 »

lol, this is getting absurd. I get the feeling that at the end of the day, no one is convincing anyone here.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by DMC »

Shepardus wrote: The way I see it the game starts after choosing your ship, but I guess you see it differently.
Yes, I see it the way most developers* apparently see it. The game starts with selecting the ship, which is indicated by having all ships included in one overall hi score table at the end.

*That might change though, if Taito is setting a new trend.
I'd say promotion in chess is more analogous to your poweup/upgrade selection in Gradius, while choosing a different ship is more like choosing to play Fischer Random chess or choosing your ship type in Gradius (like the options following behavior, laser type, etc.).
I don't know about Fischer Random Chess, but I guess one player cannot select standard chess and the other choose Fischer random and meet each other, because the rules are different? Then there's where that analogy fails. Two DDP players can choose different ships but the rules are still the same, chaining works the same, etc.
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Re: Dodonpachi

Post by Shepardus »

DMC wrote:I don't know about Fischer Random Chess, but I guess one player cannot select standard chess and the other choose Fischer random and meet each other, because the rules are different? Then there's where that analogy fails. Two DDP players can choose different ships but the rules are still the same, chaining works the same, etc.
I haven't heard of anyone doing it, but technically I think it would be possible for one side to play normally and the other to play Fischer Random, since Fischer Random just affects your starting position and castling rules. But whatever, it's just an analogy here.
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