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 Post subject: split threads vs consolidated thread (split from DDP)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:48 pm 


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PROMETHEUS wrote:
I definitely dislike separation per ship, the game is balanced enough and it's a lot nicer and easier to read to have a general table. Losing it is bad because you can't actually view the ranking anymore. It is a division of players making it look like we're not playing the same game.

More explanation :
Ships in DDP are very balanced. Every ship type is able to score above 700M (extremely high), and it is impossible to score over 800M. So, there is of course a lot of meaning in a general table (like in the vast majority of shmups, actually, since the general table can also help show any imbalance to a degree which is cool). The friendly competition comes from comparing your score with everybody else in the community. It's pretty important not to lose that. I can acknowledge there is a point in also writing tables for separate ships, but this should be secondary and certainly not remove the general table which should be the primary table.

It's not that I have anything against making separate tables, but I want to say that the general table is the main table. Then, you can make whatever number of secondary tables, and separate ship tables sure are a natural type of table to make. Please do not remove the main table.



+1
I agree with PROMETHEUS about the general table turn back (like in previous topic).
And, I think the 40M limitation is sad :(, I don't know the reason (maybe a lot of works at the beginning to get back all the scores through the 5 topics...)... but it's only my opinion.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:02 pm 


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volaju wrote:
+1
I agree with PROMETHEUS about the general table turn back (like in previous topic).
And, I think the 40M limitation is sad :(, I don't know the reason (maybe a lot of works at the beginning to get back all the scores through the 5 topics...)... but it's only my opinion.

Also agree about the 40M limitation, for the following reason mainly : any new players can feel more easily included in the friendly competition by being able to submit their low score, which can help motivate them to get better scores in the future! It is a bit of work for the person who maintains the topic in the absence of a list tag working inside the code tag for the rank number, but it's worth it for sure imo. The more in the table the merrier ya know! It would be nice to give back the possibility of posting scores below 40M.

The drawback is seeing a lot of very low scores posted and it being to much work to maintain, but I don't think we're seeing that problem. It does add some management to modify lines when scores are posted above.. but again I think it's worth it. If help is needed to modify lists for lack of time, you can always msg for help!
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:15 pm 


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I think a good idea would to have 1 score table with all of the ships and separate score tables for individual ships. Sure, it would make managing the score table a pain and make the page really long but it would give us the best of both worlds.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:07 pm 


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The game is not balanced, as the ships all play differently and require you to do different things to get the same (or different!) point values. You can clearly see this from most of the table being A-L and C-S, which are generally considered to be the best ships to use. The single table will not provide any information because it will always be misleading. It should be noted that the powerups tend to change the game more than the ships do, yet only the ships are split in Arcadia.

The 40M limitation is only there because the previous threads had it; people have always wanted a score cap for DDP. I don't really mind either way, but I don't blame the previous owners for instating a cap. Should I really remove it?
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:51 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:59 pm 


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Doesn't Arcadia list only top scores? I really don't think it is a good example to follow for the main community forum high score boards.
It's up to you for the 40M limitation, since it makes a little bit more work, but in my opinion you should remove it for the reason I've said. It just allows people to post low scores and get involved and noted whatever their experience level with DDP, allowing a friendly competition between players who don't chain and only play 1st loop, for instance. I don't mind helping with that either if you want. There are plenty of scores below 40M that were posted in the past and have disappeared because of that rule which imo is bad, and even worse is that it deters any newcomer to post a score at all, even if he may just switch games before reaching 40M it's good that he can post his score, and maybe he'll keep playing. It also tends to make it look like there are less people who have played DDP than there really have been to newcomers^^ That's why I feel it matters, for all the newcomers and ultimately all players of DDP, and DDP is such a roots game for Danmaku. It's sort of an elitist rule, when it's not really that much more effort to keep a uncapped table since it's not so often that somebody new shows up and climb it, a few minutes to change numbers when that happens... definitely worth it.

About keeping or removing the general table : sure there are differences in balance between ships, but the difference of difficulty isn't so big at all, and it's not worth losing a general table where all scores are together. I think it's reasonably important since the tables in this community are pretty much the one, definitely the main, place where we can gather up and compare/post scores online. I'll also remind that the game itself lists scores with ships all together. We can still choose how we want to do things, for example we wouldn't only list the first 5 scores like in the game, or reset it everytime the forum server resets, lol. I would like that you keep the general table, and I have nothing against having additional separate tables as well, my preference being that they be placed after the general, or main, table, shortened or not (maybe best is not shortened.. really don't mind a long first post so long as the relevant things are easy to read and to find, and yes to me that means order matters, honestly). Let's not forget that these topics are one of the main reward/motivators for us who don't play in game centers to get better, get good, or keep playing, etc. They are our social link for the friendliest and the most hardcore competition alike.

I'll give you another example. If I play Type B or C in a game and have 1st score, if there is no main table, I'm pissed that my score appears far down in the post. That's because I invest a lot of time playing the game and I want my name up there, obviously, for a similar reason that I would want cheater-scores deleted. In the case of DDP I play type A, I'm immediately visible, but I don't think about myself only^^

Yet another example : for similar reasons I'm normally against splitting tables between versions, like console/MAME/PCB... so long as differences are small enough (like, few % speed difference in a few spots, whatever I guess, most of the time, though for DDP it does not work cause Saturn/PS versions are too different like you noted). Really don't like this splitting stuff, it divides people and that's not good. It's valuable extra information but not worth deleting the general tables for.

Example number 3 : in Starcraft, there are three races, and we don't make separate tournaments or rankings ;) or if we ever do they don't take precedence over the main ones. The game is balanced, but not perfectly, it doesn't matter as much as avoiding to split people^^ of course it's different since we play against each other and variety of match ups is a core part of the game... but you get the point.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:01 pm 


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Arcadia is the standard by which any of this matters. They are the reason why we care about accurate ports, and about MAME getting the slowdown wrong.

A general table is literally useless. The only information you can get from a general table for Dodonpachi is fundamentally flawed and requires that you are intentionally ignorant about a very basic part of the game.

I really cannot help people who can't be arsed to read a thread. Accuracy is more important than catering to low attention spans.

The "divided community" argument doesn't work in shmups. People in this community already know what they want to play and will not "choose sides", because there are no sides to choose. We don't have to deal with console politics like Call of Duty kids do.

StarCraft, and every single fighting game (which is the more common comparison I get), are completely different, as they are directly competitive multiplayer games. Shmups are not, unless you're playing something like Twinkle Star Sprites multiplayer.

In StarCraft, and in every single fighting game (which is the more common comparison I get), you are forced to compare all characters to each other as a large matrix of matchups, because they are directly competitive multiplayer games. You don't have this in singleplayer games, and you shouldn't. Different characters are created to change how the game is played. There is nothing competitive about comparing different experiences in a singleplayer game.

The score cap was already removed, I forgot I did that already. I don't think there were any scores in the old thread that were lower than 40M, because of the score cap. I could go through all the older threads, and there would be a lot more scores than there are now, but that is a giant pain in the ass that noone else is expected to do.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:17 pm 



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Despatche wrote:
A general table is literally useless. The only information you can get from a general table for Dodonpachi is fundamentally flawed and requires that you are intentionally ignorant about a very basic part of the game.


Why do you think that something that is useless to you personally is useless to anyone?

And more importantly, why do you think that PROMETHEUS is ignorant about DDP and you are not? I am pretty sure if asked to judge, almost every single person on this forum would conclude the opposite.


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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:01 pm 


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It's not useless to me personally, and I explained why. I don't think PROM is ignorant (that's ridiculous), and I explained why.

People are trying to tell me things that they prove wrong by their actions, that I prove wrong with research, or that anyone can prove wrong by looking at the given issue for a few minutes. I've already explained all of this here, there, and everywhere. It's just people getting facts, opinions, and decisions confused, like it always is.

I will endlessly get asked to explain myself and always get ignored when I do. I really need to just not explain things to people, because every time i try i get accused of causing everything wrong with the world.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:31 pm 


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I disagree completely about the general table being useless, and I explained why with many arguments. I am not "intentionally ignorant about a very basic part of the game", whatever that means, and did not lie about the reasons why I want the general table to stay.

I can give you more though : by removing the general table, we cannot view the ranking anymore. If you want to know what is the 3rd place score, or 5th, or 10th, you must now look at all tables and calculate it.

If you don't want to do the work of gathering previous scores below 40M, or maintaining a general table along with separate tables, I can gladly take on that work myself.
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Last edited by PROMETHEUS on Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:50 pm 



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Despatche wrote:
It's not useless to me personally, and I explained why.

The scoreboard is supposed to serve the players of the game and not the other way around. Even if you're really intent on "educating" the people who have played the game a lot when you yourself don't even have any kind of score in the board and thus no reason to care how it is set up. I do not understand at all what motivation you have to build some kind of issue out of this. The reasoning for splitting the ships would make sense if there was any high level interest in the game here, because only on the very high level do the differences of the ships start to matter. Currently when nobody has even reached 600M it makes way more sense to have everyone competing on the same category.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:28 pm 


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This is getting ridiculous. I really don't understand why I'm being attacked over Dodonpachi, of all the games in this forum. Once again, it is incredibly apparent that I'm being randomly singled out for this game alone, entirely because people feel like it, and not at all because they are legitimately concerned with how I run this thread.

It seems incredibly shitty that I need to bust out 500M just for people to allow me to restate a really basic fact about video games in general. I thought these so-called "pros" were better than that shmupsfarm garbage. That is a really shitty thing to say to someone, especially when you're also advocating getting rid of the tiny score cap of 40M, which I already did anyway.

People think I enjoy this, that I'm ruining competition somehow and I just want to see people squirm. It really depresses me that I've spent years fixing all the old problems with these crusty score threads just to get shit on like this. These old games have problems. They need to be dealt with. Please do not ignore them. Please help me. That's all I can tell people.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
I disagree completely about the general table being useless, and I explained why with many arguments.

I explained why every single one of your arguments are faulty, including this next one.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
I can give you more though : by removing the general table, we cannot view the ranking anymore. If you want to know what is the 3rd place score, or 5th, or 10th, you must now look at all tables and calculate it.

The ranking you want is objectively flawed. You're going through the effort of calculating a "3rd place score" that doesn't exist, because these scores are not comparable. The only possible reason for this is negative, as the act itself is negative to such an extreme degree.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
If you don't want to do the work of gathering previous scores below 40M, or maintaining a general table along with separate tables, I can gladly take on that work myself.

I've done the real work. You are asking for things that you and anyone else would never care about for any other game.

Erppo wrote:
Even if you're really intent on "educating" the people who have played the game a lot when you yourself don't even have any kind of score in the board and thus no reason to care how it is set up.

I'm getting really tired of seeing this. I'm not "educating" anyone, and it really doesn't matter how good you might or might not be at Dodonpachi specifically, because splitting by character is an incredibly basic principle that applies to every single singleplayer game ever created.

Erppo wrote:
I do not understand at all what motivation you have to build some kind of issue out of this.

I'm not the one taking issue here, you are. You're the ones who suddenly care about Dodonpachi instead of any and every other table I run.

Erppo wrote:
The reasoning for splitting the ships would make sense if there was any high level interest in the game here, because only on the very high level do the differences of the ships start to matter. Currently when nobody has even reached 600M it makes way more sense to have everyone competing on the same category.

This isn't valid reasoning, and it never has been. Again, "scoring potential" has absolutely nothing to do with why characters are split; it has everything to do with actually having to play the game differently. If you were able to get the exact same points with every single ship, the tables would still be split.

Just look at the boards here. They're filled with A-L and C-S, again and again and again, no matter the skill level. First, clearly these players are playing on a higher level than everyone else simply because of ship choice. Second, A-L and C-S are completely different from each other in every possible way; those players simply aren't playing on the same level as each other.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:52 pm 


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Please keep the tables split like you have, it is the FAR PREFERRED system and actually encourages people to use some different ships for a change. The same with Batrider, if you only used the overall scores, then you wouldn't see ANY scores with 3/4 of the characters. How is that a good thing?

Also, it's not that difficult to figure out the top 5-10 overall, if you absolutely feel the need to cater to PROM and Erppo, then maybe they will be satisfied to have a short list of top 'overall' scores with their names on them :wink:

[edit] If all scores go on a general list, than a single player would be only able to have 1 score listed, right? So that doesn't really encourage them to use other ships and post scores. So essentially if you only want a general list, you are in favor of people not being able to post scores while using ships that they might have a lower score with. Shame on you :evil:
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:23 pm 


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Don't take this so personally. The reason the DDP thread is a big deal is because there are a lot of members who are really passionate about the game, combined with the fact that DDP threads have been using an overall table for literally more than a decade. It's not an either or situation - both styles manage to coexist in the Garegga thread, despite Garegga being a game where ship selection really, really matters.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:54 pm 


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I'm pretty sure that if I simply didn't explain anything and told people to fuck off from the outset, they'd actually leave me alone.

The system is fundamentally busted; doing it for years and years just makes it all the more worse. I have explained so many variables and so many problems with the system, and they have all been completely ignored with bizarre reasoning. I don't really want to call so many top players ignorant, but it's becoming very hard not to.

The Garegga thread has a total table because it almost always had one and the current thread owner decided to keep it, and it was never more than ten scores anyway. It's still a gigantic issue to have it in at all, for reasons I have so thoroughly explained. If you look at the DDP world records, there's about as much difference as there is in Garegga, and that's just with the three ships.

Inspired by Garegga, I added a troll top 5 modeled after the game because you guys are worth it, and because those are the only scores that matter as the top few scores have huge gaps between themselves and between the rest of the tables.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:32 pm 


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I agree that pretty much every game should be split by shot type, but a top 5 or 10 overall board is fine too. Even in games that have well balanced ships, it doesn't make sense to directly compare one score to another because the routes are different and the overall difficulty level can vary quite a bit (ie. one character may have to work harder to score high than another, even if their theoretical limit is the same). Aside from that, having an 'overall' board encourages people to only use the easiest ship with the highest scoring potential, which is bad. Even Arcadia screwed up in this area by not tracking individual shot types in Futari, so nobody had any reason to use Abnormal Reco or Normal Palm.

What's far more problematic is the Deathsmiles thread, which has every score smashed together with no regard to character type or EX on/off.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:55 pm 


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I agree completely. I just think having an overall board at all, even the stupid troll one I put up, only ever reinforces the exact kind of bad thinking we're talking about. That particular bit might be opinion, but there's good reasoning behind it, such as this dumb "discussion" right here. Dodonpachi might not be as horribly broken as Gunbird or whatever, but it's nowhere near perfectly balanced; even if it was somehow, the underlying principle would still be the same.

Yeah, Arcadia's kinda dumb about this. They won't split DDP/DOJ powerups, and they won't split Futari shot types. I'm amazed they split for the Deathsmiles extra, and I always wondered why they don't split for the MBL extra too.

Shepardus wrote:
(I assume autofire on/off is referring to the C-button option in the game's config?):

Thanks for actually posting something!

It is for the C button, though having a custom button can't even give you an advantage as far as I know. The option is mostly there because the C button is disabled by default; I know some arcades leave it disabled, and I'm pretty sure it's banned from MARP. In newer CAVE games, and stuff like Tatsujin Ou, it wouldn't matter too much. Though in Tatsujin Ou's case, the game might as well be unplayable without autofire...
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:45 am 


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oh fuck you despatche,
no you haven't answered all arguments, nor is your opinion inherently better than other people's. All I want is you don't delete the information that we had before, the large main table that I found fun and interesting to watch and I'm not quite the only one. The general ranking you regard as flawed is what we've always happily rolled with and you deleted it and now you pretend it's a scandal that we view things differently and ask you to roll some things back, martyring yourself calling yourself a "fixing of old games problems"? You make short sentences like they are statements of ultimate truth and there is only one way to see things, but there is not. You haven't actually answered all the arguments I gave you either. But I can see it's useless arguing with you, because you are not even arguing at all, you're only interested in imposing your view and method no matter what other people think. Even though DDP isn't a game that you even play yourself. I can see and you said it yourself, it would only be easier to you to just "tell people to fuck off", that's what you want, impose your way and that's all. Well get out of here then.

Despatche wrote:
The ranking you want is objectively flawed. You're going through the effort of calculating a "3rd place score" that doesn't exist, because these scores are not comparable. The only possible reason for this is negative, as the act itself is negative to such an extreme degree.

Doesn't exist? Sorry, it does. Also, you ignore everything about DDP's balance. Sorry but ships are comparable in this game, it was designed that way. It doesn't matter that there are small differences, it is still fun and makes sense to compare it. You are way too elitist and focused on the ultra top level competition. It makes sense to track which are the best few scores for each ship type for the top of the competition, but it doesn't make sense to refuse tracking scores all together for a general ranking that includes everybody, because yes, the difficulty for making 50M, or 100M, or 200M, or 300M with Type A-L or B-L or C-S is actually pretty close! It's the player's job to pick his weapon of choice to climb the ranking and snipe his target opponent! Your stupid 1-line game-theory is quite meaningless and doesn't justify having only 1 way to do things and censoring different opinions or methods.

Despatche wrote:
I've done the real work. You are asking for things that you and anyone else would never care about for any other game.

Sorry I've seen plenty of people maintain topics with a lot more care and understanding than you haha. Your work is certainly not any more real than other people's. What a douche this guy is seriously.

The reason I don't get involved with other games topics is because I don't play them so I let the players of those games do it the way they want to, I might give my opinion sometimes, but let it be. Now you don't play DDP... so why don't you just scram?

Erppo is right, you are just building an issue because you don't want to discuss, you simply categorically oppose by pretending your way is the only way, which doesn't make sense. See, we could do this any way we WANT. We could keep track of only 5 scores, or 100, with cap or no cap, with video or no video, split by ship type or powerup, we could have all of these or none at all... What matters is what the players of DDP want, and what else matters is that you do not care, in conclusion you are of no use as a board maintainer^^ Exactly like Erppo said, you're supposed to serve players of the game and not the other way around. Since you've proven you don't care, again I say, scram.

Despatche wrote:
Just look at the boards here. They're filled with A-L and C-S, again and again and again, no matter the skill level. First, clearly these players are playing on a higher level than everyone else simply because of ship choice. Second, A-L and C-S are completely different from each other in every possible way; those players simply aren't playing on the same level as each other.

A-L and C-S are strong, but other ships are strong as well and can score way high.. It doesn't make that much difference in difficulty which ship you pick, and that's the responsibility of the player to pick his weapon. Your reasoning is fine justification for maintaining separate tables, but not for removing the general table. I've seen A-S score 200M in first loop.. If a player picks an inferior ship, that's ok, if they play well they can still climb the ranking, the general ranking is useful to get a full view. In fighting games, there are Tier D characters, people still play them in tourneys and maybe they win. People will still play and compare each other, and I want me and others to be able to do that because yes, it does make sense, whether you like it or not. And there is not even a Tier D ship in DDP.

chempop wrote:
Please keep the tables split like you have, it is the FAR PREFERRED system and actually encourages people to use some different ships for a change. The same with Batrider, if you only used the overall scores, then you wouldn't see ANY scores with 3/4 of the characters. How is that a good thing?

Also, it's not that difficult to figure out the top 5-10 overall, if you absolutely feel the need to cater to PROM and Erppo, then maybe they will be satisfied to have a short list of top 'overall' scores with their names on them :wink:

[edit] If all scores go on a general list, than a single player would be only able to have 1 score listed, right? So that doesn't really encourage them to use other ships and post scores. So essentially if you only want a general list, you are in favor of people not being able to post scores while using ships that they might have a lower score with. Shame on you :evil:

You know, when I started with A-L, there was no A-L at the top of the DDP ranking, it actually encouraged me to play A-L. It's fine to track separate tables, it's fine to keep a general ranking as well, obviously, and most of these games do on the boards.

Sorry but I'll say again chempop, it's not just me I'm thinking about. Idc if you believe me or not, I don't want just the top 5-10 up there with my name at the top, I want a full general table for everybody, and that's because I think it's fun to have and because I know others like it too.

Also, Despatche removed scores that were posted by same person with different ships. And no, the reason why I want a general table is not to prevent people from posting more scores with other ships (I did that myself), and no, I don't "only want a general list". Thanks for not contributing in a smart and constructive way.

Despatche is not fit for the job of maintaining the thread for a complete lack of care for what DDP players would want, he has shown this by explaining whatever he is told he'll just reply with his own immovable opinion, martyr himself and impose his own rule. This is no proper way to maintain a community score board.

Now there is a "troll" general top 5...
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Last edited by PROMETHEUS on Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:18 am 


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Despatche wrote:
The Garegga thread has a total table because it almost always had one and the current thread owner decided to keep it, and it was never more than ten scores anyway. It's still a gigantic issue to have it in at all, for reasons I have so thoroughly explained. If you look at the DDP world records, there's about as much difference as there is in Garegga, and that's just with the three ships.


I think this is quite an interesting discussion.

I am well aware that basically the top 10 table in the Garegga topic is trash. Trash that doesn't hurt though. And trash that was born out of necessity. If you have a very low frequented topic with only a handful of scores, it doesn't make any sense to split up tables for individual ships and it's simply more fun to look at one general table. Who wants to look at 10 empty tables when you can look at one empty table?

As soon as you really have a lot of scores for a game, it's always better to split up tables for comparity reasons. So as things stand nowadays splitting up Garegga and DDP is a good idea and it follows Japanese rules which makes it even more comparable with WR scores.

The decision for splitting up DDP tables was long overdue.

Oh and fuck elitist score caps.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:25 am 


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It depends on the game though, how important the imbalance is. I don't know about Garegga, but can't see how a DDP general table could be regarded as trash. It's just fun, too. We can just have both. Dangun Feveron with Uo Poko sure damages a general table for instance I guess.. a possible solution being to keep that one out of a general ranking if the players want that. Anyway, it's important that the maintainer cares about the players and be open to discuss and adapt.

Just saw despatche is holding a ton of score boards. Taking over as many as possible to impose his own rule regardless of the games?
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:02 am 


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PROMETHEUS wrote:
Anyway, it's important that the maintainer cares about the players and be open to discuss and adapt.


Yes, this is very important!

Why don't we have a poll for splitting vs. not splitting?

Also, this topic has inspired me to finally split up the score tables for Strikers 45 II. One of the ugliest scoreboards just got a little bit more beautiful: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=182
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:09 am 


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In my opinion, the best, at least for DDP, is to have both, and uncapped. Though the general table is indeed relevant for competition, it is also very relevant for fun, and for all the extra information it provides. This is still valid for split tables too. So I would vote for having both, my preference being general table first, split tables second, which is more fair for visibility, the highest scores at the top, not the first letter ship scores, and because the general competition happens on the main table (we regard DDP's WR as being WTN's score, the others are ship-specific WRs). Don't mind splitting power-ups too, even though it makes many tables, it seems better. For example, B-L is way more similar to A-L than it is to B-S. It's a bit weird to have lots of tables with some of them nearly empty, but I don't mind, and it can encourage people to fill them indeed. I definitely don't want the general table to disappear, and I like to see split tables too. I'd also prefer that somebody else maintain the tables^^ I can do it, or anybody else who isn't self-centered.
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Last edited by PROMETHEUS on Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:38 am 


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Voting for split to be the main. Regardless of scoring "balance", the way they play is so different that it's not worth comparing them. To appease some people, just keep the top-5 combined as it is now, I guess.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:46 am 


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trap15 wrote:
Voting for split to be the main. Regardless of scoring "balance", the way they play is so different that it's not worth comparing them. To appease some people, just keep the top-5 combined as it is now, I guess.

The goal is not to "appease some people", but to serve the players who play this game and use this board.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:53 am 


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I think this raises an important point that maybe hasn't been addressed before. With all score threads, the person managing the tables needs to take the community's requests into account and always keep it open to revision. If people want a general score listing it should be listed, even if the TS disagrees. Since usually we only want one thread per game, it's unfair to designate yourself the scorekeeper and impose your own rules. Pouting and adding a "stupid troll" table isn't particularly helpful.

In this case, I don't see a problem with listing both. It looks like most people like the separate listings and I also would give those priority, but I like the general table and would like to see it expanded.


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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:57 am 


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Thank you NTSC-J.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:11 pm 


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PROMETHEUS wrote:
oh fuck you despatche,
no you haven't answered all arguments, nor is your opinion inherently better than other people's. All I want is you don't delete the information that we had before, the large main table that I found fun and interesting to watch and I'm not quite the only one. The general ranking you regard as flawed is what we've always happily rolled with and you deleted it and now you pretend it's a scandal that we view things differently and ask you to roll some things back, martyring yourself calling yourself a "fixing of old games problems"? You make short sentences like they are statements of ultimate truth and there is only one way to see things, but there is not. You haven't actually answered all the arguments I gave you either. But I can see it's useless arguing with you, because you are not even arguing at all, you're only interested in imposing your view and method no matter what other people think. Even though DDP isn't a game that you even play yourself. I can see and you said it yourself, it would only be easier to you to just "tell people to fuck off", that's what you want, impose your way and that's all. Well get out of here then.

I did answer everything (it's what I do), and I just rechecked to be absolutely sure. I am talking very little about opinion, while your desire is almost entirely opinion or based on a horrible misunderstanding. I have explained very carefully why the overall table and your bizarre sense of nostalgia are fundamentally flawed, and I will do so again further down. I have done years upon years of studying this community and this genre, while your only claim to fame is that you're good at a particular game. You are doing exactly what you accuse me of, and I'm tired of struggling to respond to you. Once again, I do not need to be good at a particular game to understand something that applies to the entire genre and beyond. I felt that telling you to fuck off would somehow be better understood by you than an actual explanation--people have told me this numerous times about other topics, and this "conversation" gives me the impression that they were right.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
Doesn't exist? Sorry, it does. Also, you ignore everything about DDP's balance. Sorry but ships are comparable in this game, it was designed that way. It doesn't matter that there are small differences, it is still fun and makes sense to compare it. You are way too elitist and focused on the ultra top level competition. It makes sense to track which are the best few scores for each ship type for the top of the competition, but it doesn't make sense to refuse tracking scores all together for a general ranking that includes everybody, because yes, the difficulty for making 50M, or 100M, or 200M, or 300M with Type A-L or B-L or C-S is actually pretty close! It's the player's job to pick his weapon of choice to climb the ranking and snipe his target opponent! Your stupid 1-line game-theory is quite meaningless and doesn't justify having only 1 way to do things and censoring different opinions or methods.

"DDP is better balanced than some games, but nowhere near perfectly balanced, and it wouldn't matter if it was (which is pretty much impossible)." That is what I've said, because it's true.

I really don't think you understand that half the forum has been told to use C-S for the entire game's life, with a number of people using A-L being inspired by the top players. Every single time someone asks about how to play DDP well, they always get the same response: "use C-S". All the other ships and powerups get ignored. It's right here in the thread, and I'm willing to bet most of those old scores use C-S. Your entire belief that the game is sufficiently balanced even for "casuals" is simply untrue.

Even if you could somehow get the exact same points with every single ship and powerup (just look at the world records), actually getting those points would still be completely different; if it wasn't, then the ships probably behave exactly the same and there is never a need for a split. This would all be obvious by playing the game for a few minutes, as it is for DDP.

It's completely ridiculous that you, as someone who actually knows how to play DDP well, cannot understand this. I don't know why you're resorting to outright lying, either.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
Sorry I've seen plenty of people maintain topics with a lot more care and understanding than you haha. Your work is certainly not any more real than other people's. What a douche this guy is seriously.

This is the part where I actually get pissed off. I have been in this community for nearly a decade, just like you. I have seen countless countless countless threads that fail to put any effort into describing anything about how the game is supposed to work, throwing tons of unbalanced characters into a single pool and telling people to deal with it, and even considering completely different versions of the game as the same. The only threads I've seen with any effort put into them are the newer nicer threads, usually for CAVE games, sometimes by people who are pretty good at those games. These newer threads also generally adhere to Arcadia rules at the bare minimum.

With that alone, DDP should be split by the ships at the very least. But anyone who's tried all the DDP types and powers knows that they play completely differently and require different strategies just to play the game on a really basic level. That's why, once again, always, the thread will be dominated by C-S.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
The reason I don't get involved with other games topics is because I don't play them so I let the players of those games do it the way they want to, I might give my opinion sometimes, but let it be. Now you don't play DDP... so why don't you just scram?

I was speaking to everyone involved. Jaimers and Erppo don't particularly care for other threads either, even though they play everything and I have a lot of respect for them as far as this genre goes. Which makes it a bit ridiculous that they agree with your sheer ignorance, mostly for the sake of seeing their names at the top.

That's what this really comes down to. You don't care about the "casuals" at all, you care about your score.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
Erppo is right, you are just building an issue because you don't want to discuss, you simply categorically oppose by pretending your way is the only way, which doesn't make sense. See, we could do this any way we WANT. We could keep track of only 5 scores, or 100, with cap or no cap, with video or no video, split by ship type or powerup, we could have all of these or none at all... What matters is what the players of DDP want, and what else matters is that you do not care, in conclusion you are of no use as a board maintainer^^ Exactly like Erppo said, you're supposed to serve players of the game and not the other way around. Since you've proven you don't care, again I say, scram.

You have no idea just how angry it makes me to see my explanations thrown in the trash as if I never said anything. This is why I figured it'd be better to tell you to fuck off. Once again, you are doing exactly what you are accusing me of, and you think your ignorance matters because you happen to be good at a single specific game. You have proven that you don't care. What a fucking shame.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
A-L and C-S are strong, but other ships are strong as well and can score way high.. It doesn't make that much difference in difficulty which ship you pick, and that's the responsibility of the player to pick his weapon. Your reasoning is fine justification for maintaining separate tables, but not for removing the general table. I've seen A-S score 200M in first loop.. If a player picks an inferior ship, that's ok, if they play well they can still climb the ranking, the general ranking is useful to get a full view.

You are agreeing with me while at the same time trying to make it seem like you're saying something different. How? How do people do that? I really don't know what else to say that I haven't said a million times, and I really do not understand why a top player is saying "you can score about the same!", never mind that the world records are literally twenty millions apart from each other.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
In fighting games, there are Tier D characters, people still play them in tourneys and maybe they win. People will still play and compare each other, and I want me and others to be able to do that because yes, it does make sense, whether you like it or not. And there is not even a Tier D ship in DDP.

Why do you keep talking about fighting games? You do not have to treat a singleplayer game like a multiplayer one. I have explained why.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
You know, when I started with A-L, there was no A-L at the top of the DDP ranking, it actually encouraged me to play A-L. It's fine to track separate tables, it's fine to keep a general ranking as well, obviously, and most of these games do on the boards.

Sorry but I'll say again chempop, it's not just me I'm thinking about. Idc if you believe me or not, I don't want just the top 5-10 up there with my name at the top, I want a full general table for everybody, and that's because I think it's fun to have and because I know others like it too.

Here is why I do not want to put a general table.

First and foremost, it encourages the bad thinking I've been talking about this entire thread. It is completely misleading to put completely different characters that require completely different strategies on the same playing field, especially if they cannot actually achieve the same result. And they can't. You've said this yourself, while trying to say such huge gaps in ability are "close enough" at the same time.

Second, your ignorance and slander are really pissing me the fuck off right now.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
Also, Despatche removed scores that were posted by same person with different ships. And no, the reason why I want a general table is not to prevent people from posting more scores with other ships (I did that myself), and no, I don't "only want a general list". Thanks for not contributing in a smart and constructive way.

You are a god damned liar. I didn't remove a single score, I don't do that shit. Every single score in this thread was in the previous thread, and I then added the new scores S.L was not able to.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
The goal is not to "appease some people", but to serve the players who play this game and use this board.

These are the same thing to you. The only self-centered people around here are you top players who want to see your names at the tippy top all the time. You're a giant hypocrite.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
Despatche is not fit for the job of maintaining the thread for a complete lack of care for what DDP players would want, he has shown this by explaining whatever he is told he'll just reply with his own immovable opinion, martyr himself and impose his own rule. This is no proper way to maintain a community score board.

I have once again explained why you're being ignorant, and I have now explained why you're being ridiculously hateful. I'm not replying to you anymore, because this has been a giant waste of my time.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:18 pm 


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NTSC-J wrote:
Pouting and adding a "stupid troll" table isn't particularly helpful.

I don't mind some concessions and I always ask for comments, but there really is a lot of bad thinking and bad practices in this community, and clinging to them because you always have is really the worst thing someone can do. If it were a small detail, it'd be fine, but this is really serious. Not only do we have people wanting to ignore Arcadia policy (what top players like PROM care about), but we also have an incomplete Arcadia policy that we have to make adjustments to.

So, the real problem is mostly the behavior of PROM and certain other people who challenged me, constantly bringing up opinion and tradition when I tried to give them explanations. Seriously, he used "people have low attention spans, including me" as a reason. That giant post of his up there is filled with complete lies, as I have explained above.

Judging by the raw amount of replies I've gotten (I've gotten some outside of the thread), it seems to be half and half for having the general table. I feel like I should be the tiebreaker, but I guess that's so terribly self-centered, huh? God, that just really pisses me the fuck off.

Despatche wrote:
People think I enjoy this, that I'm ruining competition somehow and I just want to see people squirm. It really depresses me that I've spent years fixing all the old problems with these crusty score threads just to get shit on like this. These old games have problems. They need to be dealt with. Please do not ignore them. Please help me. That's all I can tell people.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:23 pm 


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I'm not wasting my time to read your post. Yeah you deleted my B score, whatever.

You are not interested in arguing or understanding things, only shaving off all differing opinions as a personal annoyance to you and getting your way while insulting me for disagreeing.

C-S is easiest to play because when you don't score, you just shoot away and it's the best at it. When you chain you can't do that, so C-S isn't easier than B-L or A-L.

It's not only a matter of perfect balance but of other things that you didn't answer previously, and yes things are also a matter of opinions, as for facts there are facts that explain why I or others would want to keep a general ranking. Your only purpose as thread maintainer, is to serve us players. You're not interested in that, you fuck off. It's so painful to you, having to discuss right? So get out of here, and anybody else can do the work soooo much better than you =)

Anyway, I can plainly see what kind of person you are. You are a bully little shit. Get the fuck out of my face, scrub.
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 Post subject: Re: Dodonpachi
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:39 pm 


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I honestly didn't see that score because it seemed like all the individual ships scores were the same. Looking at it again, all the individual ship scores are in fact the same except for your B-L score. It's been added. It was a mistake. I'm sorry.

I answered everything. I answered everything again. I did question your motives, but I did not insult you until you outright insulted me just now. You have outright told me that you aren't going to read my explanations yet again, even though you keep asking for them. You are wrong, ignorant, and hateful. I respected you as a person before this, but it's clear that you don't know what to do. Your skill at Dodonpachi means a lot less to me now. There is nothing more to say to you, because you won't read it anyway.
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