DoDonPachi (New Thread #4)

[PROMETHEUS]

You mean Takuro's TAS ?
I forgot about that, I should totally check it out. Does he do the extended stage 5 chain in that run ?!?
759M... is 749M + 10M ! Perhaps WTN actually did a perfect play, just with 1 miss @Hibachi instead of none :p

[moozooh]

Takuro's TAS is far from perfect. His largest stage 5 chain is 855 hit, and the first loop score is only 205 million. WTN got ~218 million in his run, and NAI can do over 225 with C-S. I'm certain that very esoteric optimizations are taking place there.

Also, additional hits at 2-5 are a lot more expensive than 1-5 because you're cashing them in at a much higher multiplier.

[sikraiken]

I don't think you can get "well over 750M", I think WTN's best run is probably very close to ultra perfection.

WTN is approaching the max but is a decent distance from it. I wouldn't call it "very close to ultra perfection," anyway. At least a 6% improvement in score can be made.

It's important to grab all the bombs by destroying the carrier the soonest available moment possible, then grabbing the bomb immediately after. Every frame you wait, you're losing points.

Some other (not all) improvements:

You can get an extra 600k by bombing the 2-6 boss when the guage turns red (once you reach 2-6 boss, your bombs are worthless point-wise, there are no points for them at the end of 2-6 or end of the game).

0hits on Hibachi gives you the base score of 5M for the boss bonus. 100hits will increase your boss bonus from 5M to 10M. 333hits (max hits) will increase your boss bonus from 5M to 21,650,000. That's a lot of points.

[moozooh]

Also, damaging bosses and large enemies with the aura decreases the amount of hits you get from them as the hit calculation is based on the time your laser stays connected, not the amount of damage dealt. So ideally there should be no pointblanking and safespot abuse, and 1-4/2-4 boss would be killed normally to avoid the inevitable hit gauge decrease (as well as to grab some surplus stars).

That's also why shot types can get higher chains during the stages, which is one of the reasons I think C-S has a higher scoring potential compared to A-L. Much harder to take advantage of its benefits at such a high level, though.

[sikraiken]

To go along with what Moozooh said, here are the boss hits you can get on 1-6:

A-S: 273
A-L: 259
B-S: 282
B-L: 261
C-S: 286
C-L: 259

So, C-S > B-S > A-S > B-L > A-L/C-L. This is just based off of this data, of course. Also, C-S can get more enemies in stage 5 and in other places since it can reach on both sides of the screen. C-S definitely has a higher scoring potential.

[moozooh]

Interesting! I never knew there was such a difference in power between the ships. :o That should also explain the seemingly large discrepancy between WTN's 218 million and NAI's 225 million first loop scores.

[PROMETHEUS]

Those 218/225M first loop you're talking about, that's WITH the 900+ stage 5 chain right ?
In my own "saved state TAS", the maximum I'm getting is 203M, and I really try to get everything I can.

I do always bomb 2-6 boss when his life is red that's an easy additional 600K indeed.
Also I do try to get as many hits as possible when making my saved state TAS. No idea how to get more than 700M without the stage 5 extended chains tbh.

There are things that seem like a nice little score inscrease on the paper, but that I consider pretty damn near impossible to implement without adding a lot of risk to your run... At least finding the safe routes that get those additional points is no simple task !

333hits @hibachi sounds nearly impossible to me, you just can't stay in front of him and still be safe all the time.

[Aguraki]

anyone have links to these superplays?(even the TAS one)

[moozooh]

Those 218/225M first loop you're talking about, that's WITH the 900+ stage 5 chain right ?

Confirmed in case with WTN, but should be no-brainer in NAI's case as well.

If you watch, say, HFD's DOJ BL superplay very closely you'll notice just how much attention to small detail it contains. For instance, he always tries to start the chain with or at least tuck the larger (more expensive) enemies closer to the beginning of the chain, even if that makes 1-2 smaller enemies get away. Some other larger enemies, on the other hand, are left alive so that it's possible to milk more free hits off of them as soon as they enter the invulnerability area at the bottom of the screen. Hypers that are to be used immediately are picked up at the top of the screen regardless of the dangers involved. That's all observable in stage 1-2 alone, and the difference it makes isn't really that great, a couple million tops. But that's the level of optimization you need to be looking for.

There are things that seem like a nice little score inscrease on the paper, but that I consider pretty damn near impossible to implement without adding a lot of risk to your run... At least finding the safe routes that get those additional points is no simple task !

If you're going for the WR, that's pretty much a given. In all seriousness there are way too many things we underappreciate about top-tier superplays by not paying attention to small details in our own execution.

anyone have links to these superplays?(even the TAS one)

Takuro's TAS is available but the original page is down; I can make it available tomorrow, or maybe somebody else will by that point.

[PROMETHEUS]

That's really crazy, I never even looked at STGs that way @_@

[TLB]

Those 218/225M first loop you're talking about, that's WITH the 900+ stage 5 chain right ?

Confirmed in case with WTN, but should be no-brainer in NAI's case as well.

If you watch, say, HFD's DOJ BL superplay very closely you'll notice just how much attention to small detail it contains. For instance, he always tries to start the chain with or at least tuck the larger (more expensive) enemies closer to the beginning of the chain, even if that makes 1-2 smaller enemies get away. Some other larger enemies, on the other hand, are left alive so that it's possible to milk more free hits off of them as soon as they enter the invulnerability area at the bottom of the screen. Hypers that are to be used immediately are picked up at the top of the screen regardless of the dangers involved. That's all observable in stage 1-2 alone, and the difference it makes isn't really that great, a couple million tops. But that's the level of optimization you need to be looking for.

There are things that seem like a nice little score inscrease on the paper, but that I consider pretty damn near impossible to implement without adding a lot of risk to your run... At least finding the safe routes that get those additional points is no simple task !

If you're going for the WR, that's pretty much a given. In all seriousness there are way too many things we underappreciate about top-tier superplays by not paying attention to small details in our own execution.

You're even failing to see, moozooh, that he not only pointblanks for hits, but (and more importantly here) to grind up the hyper gauge faster. If you've ever tried to imitate HFD's 1-1 and 1-2 strategies, you'll see how he perfectly builds his hyper gauge so as to have precise levels in anticipation of further opportunities to raise the gauge optimally later in the game. This is most obvious at the end of 1-1, where he leaves his second hyper bar just slightly unfilled (you can't even tell the difference between the bars) so that when he picks up his hyper and sets them off at the beginning of 1-2, he fills the gauge immediately.

As he continues the stage, he gets enough hypers to have five at the end of the long pop-corn-idor (get it? :D), which is a far better payoff compared to having 4 at the beginning and 4 at the end. The difference is at least 20 million, from experience, and it is fucking difficult to set it up the way HFD does every time like he must be able to. It takes a lot of practice. Savestates would help >_>

Speaking of practice...

[moozooh]

Oh yeah, forgot about that trick with leaving the hyper bar at the 1-1. I also noticed that the last time I rewatched it. I swear, this dude is nuts. :D

[PROMETHEUS]

pop-corn-idor (get it? :D)

Omg I love that word you just made up :D
We should add it to the Shmuptionary !!

[spl]

HFD himself says in an interview I read those BL runs have alot of errors and can be optimized even more!

He invites people to come and make his record "obsolete". Insane.

[PROMETHEUS]

I have just posted a first version of The Full Extent of the Jam. I am open to modify it if you guys can help me identify any shortcomings, so definitely tell me what you think about it in its thread if you have read some of it !

It's currently a 44 pages PDF document, I tried to make a nice layout.

Thread : http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 30#p636430

[Ravid]

Hi everyone. Sorry for my long and unexplained absence, but as you may have guessed I haven't visited this site or so much as played a computer game in the last few months: I've just started my PhD and am extremely busy. Anyone who wants to can and probably should take over from me. I believe =SNC= called it, if he's still interested.

[=SNC=]

Hi everyone. Sorry for my long and unexplained absence, but as you may have guessed I haven't visited this site or so much as played a computer game in the last few months: I've just started my PhD and am extremely busy. Anyone who wants to can and probably should take over from me. I believe =SNC= called it, if he's still interested.

It will be done ASAP