Incredible boss milking and bomb tricks say otherwise. (can't say the same about Chitta or the 1st and 3rd Garegga ships, but oh well)BulletMagnet wrote:Guess it depends on what you define as "awesome" weapons, seeing as the game more or less requires you to power up and utilize your main guns and options as little as possible.
Yeah, after you've walked on eggshells for the first 70 percent of the game.Twiddle wrote:In fact, the optimal scoring route for Gain (and apparently, Wild Snail) is to stop caring about rank after you destroy Black Heart version 1.
Shooting contributes half a percent to your rank, tops. Even as Gain, you have to actually have the options off screen to get your shooting rank contribution above one percent.BulletMagnet wrote:Not to mention that while bombing too much in a Cave game will gut your score, shooting/powering up too much in Garegga et al kills your chances of even clearing the thing.
You're right, in that I took it to mean something else, as in the bosses don't gradually get more difficult throughout the game. Regardless, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you're saying, which is why I don't understand how or why this conversation has gone on so long. I just think you're giving the game short shrift because the boss milking, which even I think is boring, and mullettgeezer's bit about it not being included because of the boss milking.Icarus wrote:
Or did you not know about the difficulty scaling of boss attack patterns, which is what I was originally commenting on? Even Cave themselves knew of the problems of boss milking that was exploited by Esprade players, and who endeavored to make boss milking more difficult to players with their subsequent games.
DOJ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Guwange
But I agree, the argument is moot. So I'll let it rest here.
...
No I won't. Guwange >>>>>>>>> Esprade.
^_-
captpain wrote:Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb
The difference, BM, is that in a Cave game, unless I'm 100% confident in my strategy, I'm always put on the defensive to try and protect that special bonus given by surplus bombs or whathaveyou. In a Raizing game, I can be as aggressive with my arsenal of weaponry and playing strategy as I want and not worry about the consequences, because dying is just as beneficial as staying alive.BulletMagnet wrote:Yeah, that's nothing like Raizing, which just instantly penalizes you for collecting, oh, ANYTHING.Icarus wrote:Plus getting bombs and then being penalised for using them is something I find quite hard to adjust to.
Pfff. DOJ could totally kick Guwange's ass.... AND eat it's children.Icarus wrote:Bleh. Daioujou is butt-ugly, pretty typical of Cave's style, and kinda generic compared to what Cave can really put out. Daioujou lacks the style, design and flair that Guwange has.
Tell that to Bakraid.Scoreplay in a Cave game is all about getting that perfect run, and in my case, the perfect run happens every thousand credits. Scoreplay in a Raizing is freeflowing and often adlib. I definitely know which one I prefer.
captpain wrote:Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb
What? Reading comprehension dear BM, do you have it?BulletMagnet wrote:That's fine, but both styles of game still give you things that they expect you not to use, so criticizing just one or the other for that seems a bit odd...
Even at its peak, scoring in Bakraid is less anal about routes and timing than anything in Cave. Chaining the multipliers in Bakraid is just about knowing what to hit, you have the option of attacking it with whatever weapon you want. Plus, if you break your chain at any point, or make a mistake, you can still recover a good portion of your score.Acid King wrote:Tell that to Bakraid.Scoreplay in a Cave game is all about getting that perfect run, and in my case, the perfect run happens every thousand credits. Scoreplay in a Raizing is freeflowing and often adlib. I definitely know which one I prefer.
More specifically, I'd say, maximum use of one (bombs, in most cases) and limited-as-possible use of everything else.Icarus wrote:Coming from a gamestyle where use of all weaponry for scoring is encouraged
To be fair, methinks, in many Raizing games bombs aren't designed to save your butt when you're playing the game correctly, but instead are intended to be used to score more points (most notably in Garegga, wherein you have that nasty delay before the bomb activates, though admittedly later titles are a bit more lenient). In fact, I seem to recall a mini-debate from some time back in which it was stated "It isn't 'Bomb, it's 'Weapon!'" Either way, in both games (most any shmup, really) the ideal is to play without using bombs to save yourself from mistakes, they just make you do it in different ways.to a gamestyle where you're penalised for using the one weapon that can save you in a tight situation
Yeah, they're linked, but in the opposite sense of the way they're linked in at least some Raizing games: in Cave's stuff, you have to survive to score, while in something like Garegga (less so for their other titles) you have to score to survive as well. Also, as you mentioned, some of the more recent Cave titles (the Mushis, the Galudas, Ibara, if that counts) have stopped penalizing the player for bomb use, so give at least a little credit there.And lest you forget, survival and score are linked in Cave games. As a scoreplayer, I have to attempt the perfect run - dying is just as detrimental to your score as using the aforementioned bombs.
I vaguely recall you acknowledging that dropping a medal in a bad spot in Garegga or Batrider in particular can pretty much ruin your game, sometime back during Raizing Week ("Welcome to Battle Garegga 2" is the specific comment I recall, though I forget exactly where you made it). Perhaps not "as bad" of a penalty as in some Cave games, but still plenty nasty for my tastes.Plus, if you break your chain at any point, or make a mistake, you can still recover a good portion of your score.
Getting the "perfect run" is just as important in Bakraid as it is in any Cave game. Missing or losing the 64x multiplier (or dropping medal count in any raizing game) is going to have a huge amount of influence on your score. Just missing a few million points in Bakraid (say, screwing up the 10 million trick on the first boss) means you lose extends, which means you lose chances to continue your multiplier, which means you lose lots and lots of points. You could argue that it's more open than DOJ or other Cave games, but it's just as anal when it comes to perfect runs since an unplanned death can fuck you over just as much as in a Cave game. And I don't know about it being less anal about timing and routes, considering the fact that Bakraid gives you fewer enemies to chain. Suiciding a fraction of a second too late and you won't have enough time to drop a bomb and lose your chain, not damaging a part enough to have it explode on time to continue a chain, dropping a bomb too early or too short etc etc etc...Icarus wrote:
Even at its peak, scoring in Bakraid is less anal about routes and timing than anything in Cave. Chaining the multipliers in Bakraid is just about knowing what to hit, you have the option of attacking it with whatever weapon you want. Plus, if you break your chain at any point, or make a mistake, you can still recover a good portion of your score.
In Cave you're not given that possibility. Breaking your chain in something like Daioujou or Guwange means a massive loss in points. In Daioujou, miss a bee in a stage and you not only lose the 2x multiplier on the last bee in the stage, but increased base bee values in the next (almost 2x score lost). Lose your chain at any point in Guwange and the lost score potential is almost unrecoverable. Losing the max bomb bonus in Progear drops your base jewel size back down (making it harder to both score and survive).
There's a FUCKING HUGE difference between "freeflowing" scoreplay and very strict perfection of routes.
captpain wrote:Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb
Everything else meaning... what? Shot?BulletMagnet wrote:More specifically, I'd say, maximum use of one (bombs, in most cases) and limited-as-possible use of everything else.
Yes, but at least you can use your bombs for that survival purpose in most Raizing, and incur little penalty to your score. Use a bomb in most Cave and you stand to lose all manner of juicy bonuses.BulletMagnet wrote:To be fair, methinks, in many Raizing games bombs aren't designed to save your butt when you're playing the game correctly... <snip!>
Mushi does penalise you for bomb usage though. Your parent counter decreases rapidly during the bomb usage. Happens in both Mushi and Mushi Futari.BulletMagnet wrote:Yeah, they're linked, but in the opposite sense of the way they're linked in at least some Raizing games: in Cave's stuff, you have to survive to score, while in something like Garegga (less so for their other titles) you have to score to survive as well. Also, as you mentioned, some of the more recent Cave titles (the Mushis, the Galudas, Ibara, if that counts) have stopped penalizing the player for bomb use, so give at least a little credit there.
I made the "Welcome to..." comment.BulletMagnet wrote:I vaguely recall you acknowledging that dropping a medal in a bad spot in Garegga or Batrider in particular can pretty much ruin your game, sometime back during Raizing Week ("Welcome to Battle Garegga 2" is the specific comment I recall, though I forget exactly where you made it). Perhaps not "as bad" of a penalty as in some Cave games, but still plenty nasty for my tastes.
And I find it funny how when a known Raizing player makes even a minor comment relating to Raizing or Cave games, that you're always the first one to jump in and jump down people's throats. You were pretty quick to latch on to my original comparision between the way I play Cave and Raizing, and took it completely out of context.BulletMagnet wrote:It just seems a bit odd that most of the time you and some others like to crow about how difficult and unforgiving Raizing's games are, and how only the best of the best and most devoted players can truly appreciate them, but as soon as someone complains about how merciless Cave's games can be, the slogan switches to "...but Raizing Understands, and Loves You."
How much of a differentiation is there between something that wants you to keep something at a lower power which makes it less useful, and something that doesn't want you to use it at all? Not exactly the same thing, granted, but I'd still consider it "limiting" certain weapons...then, of course, you've got something like Souky, which more or less demands that score players in particular stick almost exclusively to the web weapon and never shoot OR bomb for most of the game.Icarus wrote:Everything else meaning... what? Shot? This is weaponry we're talking about, not powerups.
As I said, maybe not "as bad" as much of Cave's stuff if you want to nitpick, but still plenty mean...check two replies down, or Acid King's latest reply above.BulletMagnet wrote:Yes, but at least you can use your bombs for that survival purpose in most Raizing, and incur little penalty to your score. Use a bomb in most Cave and you stand to lose all manner of juicy bonuses.
Gah, forgot about that, for some stupid reason...maybe it was the lack of a "bombs remaining" bonus that threw me off.Mushi does penalise you for bomb usage though. Your parent counter decreases rapidly during the bomb usage. Happens in both Mushi and Mushi Futari.
When read "in a vacuum," no, but consider the statement it's being made in response to:Read it. The comment had nothing to do with "ruining a game" at all, but is rather a comment about Batrider's scoring systems.
If I took it out of context I apologize, but it honestly did strike me as puzzling, since no group of shmups is more well-known for requiring players to limit the use of certain weapons than Raizing's is, and seeing Cave criticized for punishing bomb use, in purely score-repated ways with little to do with survival, caught my attention...You were pretty quick to latch on to my original comparision between the way I play Cave and Raizing, and took it completely out of context.
Oh come on, that's just silly. Or have you already forgotten about that sizable chunk of the Garegga ST I volunteered to help with, among other things? I've got nothing against Raizing's games or those who play them, and methinks you know that, but when I see an equivalent (or think I do) of the infamous "visible bullets are ugly" fiasco, I see no reason to not say anything, in the same manner as yourself and others have no qualms, and rightfully so, about reacting to "rank suxxorz" type comments. All things considered methinks I try to keep my speech on any topic, this sort included, pretty civil around here, you of all people should know I've had more than enough enough of flame wars on this sort of thing.Sorry BM, but it has to be said. Congrats. You've become the forum's numero uno anti-Raizing troll. -_-;;
You'll have to further elaborate on that one, methinks...I still see both as having at least a roughly equivalent ability to make score players in particular bash their heads against walls, just via different methods. If you prefer one over the other I've got no problem with that, but implying that one is unquestionably superior to the other is another matter.As for your actual comment, I'll use one of your comparisons: when played for score, Raizing is merciless, but fair about it. Cave is just merciless.
There is a difference. Just because you're limiting Shot power doesn't make the weapon any less useful, it merely changes the way you use the weapon. Even with a limited Shot power in Soukyu, you still use your Shot in many circumstances to weaken targets, clear areas and attack particular enemies. Even if you use a bomb in Soukyu, you can instantly recover the maximum bomb bonus as the only time the bonus resets itself is when you die - pick up one or two bombs to hit max again and you can continue to reap the benefits.BulletMagnet wrote:How much of a differentiation is there between something that wants you to keep something at a lower power which makes it less useful, and something that doesn't want you to use it at all?
Oh puh-leeze. Even from breaking your Medal chain in a Raizing the score lost is nowhere near proportional to the massive loss incurred by doing the same thing in a Cave. 130k from bringing your Medal chain back up from a standing start is... what? Less than 1% of my ALL score? 1% of my possible Strawman Only Advanced Course max?BulletMagnet wrote:When read "in a vacuum," no, but consider the statement it's being made in response to:
This game is pretty frustrating in that if you lose your medal chain in a level with lots of medals, you might as well restart.
If nothing else, you certainly didn't deny what was said there, and followed it up with a more specific breakdown of how badly your score gets knocked down if you do the aforementioned. And now here I'm seeing seemingly contradictory comments about how (comparatively) forgiving Raizing's games are...I hope you can see how it strikes me as questionable off the cuff.
The fact that you took it out of context is what made it initially "puzzling" to you. It was nothing more than a mere tiny comment, and take a look at what it has developed into.BulletMagnet wrote:If I took it out of context I apologize, but it honestly did strike me as puzzling, since no group of shmups is more well-known for requiring players to limit the use of certain weapons than Raizing's is, and seeing Cave criticized for punishing bomb use, in purely score-repated ways with little to do with survival, caught my attention...
Yup, but like me with the mentioned "rank suzzorz" threads, you're always the first to dive in.BulletMagnet wrote:Oh come on, that's just silly. Or have you already forgotten about that sizable chunk of the Garegga ST I volunteered to help with, among other things? I've got nothing against Raizing's games or those who play them, and methinks you know that, but when I see an equivalent (or think I do) of the infamous "visible bullets are ugly" fiasco, I see no reason to not say anything, in the same manner as yourself and others have no qualms, and rightfully so, about reacting to "rank suxxorz" type comments. All things considered methinks I try to keep my speech on any topic, this sort included, pretty civil around here, you of all people should know I've had more than enough enough of flame wars on this sort of thing.
Three replies up in this particular post, the "oh puhleeze" comment.BulletMagnet wrote:You'll have to further elaborate on that one, methinks...I still see both as having at least a roughly equivalent ability to make score players in particular bash their heads against walls, just via different methods. If you prefer one over the other I've got no problem with that, but implying that one is unquestionably superior to the other is another matter.
I agree. Serious Business.Plasmo wrote:lol internet
I was thinking (and continue to think) in broader terms, so we're sort of flailing away at air here. I guess I could possibly reword it as (some variation of) the semi-infamous "playstyle that goes contrary to instinct"...both never bombing and keeping weapon power low might fit into that category, and involve "limiting yourself" somehow. Hopefully that's a little clearer...Icarus wrote:Like I said before, I'm talking about weaponry use, not powerups.
You seem to have neglected to address the "losing the medal at a bad spot" specific...lose your chain at the end of Garegga's level 2 and you're out a ton of points at the beginning of stage 3, for instance. Once more, perhaps not "as bad," but it can still put a good dent in your run, especially when you're depending on keeping extends coming for pure survival purposes (plus death-related bomb fragments for additional scoring, and further extends). As for the "exponential" stuff you mention, it's a valid point, certainly, though Cave's games are hardly the only ones which do this, though they're the only ones which seem to take regular flack for it for some reason. In any case, I thought you liked games which play rough with you.Even from breaking your Medal chain in a Raizing the score lost is nowhere near proportional to the massive loss incurred by doing the same thing in a Cave. 130k from bringing your Medal chain back up from a standing start is... what? Less than 1% of my ALL score? 1% of my possible Strawman Only Advanced Course max?
Bah, this is peanuts compared to what we've seen before.The fact that you took it out of context is what made it initially "puzzling" to you. It was nothing more than a mere tiny comment, and take a look at what it has developed into.
And again, I obviously didn't mean to interpret your comment differently than you intended, I just commented on how it initially struck me, there was no malice or anything behind it...hopefully you're well-acquainted enough with me by now for that not to be an issue.Consider us dual sides of the same coin then, heh heh.Yup, but like me with the mentioned "rank suzzorz" threads, you're always the first to dive in.
Raizing is merciless, but fair about it. Cave is just merciless.And where did I say "Raizing is superior to Cave" in any of my posts in this thread? All of my comments have been of a gameplay comparison-based nature. Stop putting words in my mouth!
Haha. Don't worry. Although I havent really been here long I can see that this is just bickering to pass the time.BulletMagnet wrote:If you think THIS is a fight, you ain't been here too long.
Nahh, not in every game, you know. I actually don't recognize that as a main characteristic of Cave games, even if it's present in some (even most of their) games. Watch the Maniac run on the mushi's DVD, for example. The player absolutely doesn't care about lifes and bombs at all. And that's lovely.Twiddle wrote:They have the gall to let you keep playing after you've effectively rendered your run pointless.
