STGT 2k6- Results Week #5

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:09 pm

mulletgeezer wrote:you mean breaking the forum record? 4 weeks out of the 5 i think. I imagine the 2 scores at the top of our esprade HS board used some milking.

Yeah thats what I meant. Sure, some milking, but judging by the scores not much and certainly not 40+ minutes per round of play milking if that's what it took TAC to get 42+mill.

mulletgeezer · Post by **mulletgeezer** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:16 pm

yeah, not many players would have the skill and patience to do it as well as TAC, and bacause of this most players wouldn't take quite as long to finish the game, but there would still be some long and tedious games needed for a winning score. Unless everyone agreed not to do any boss milking i'd rather not compete at Esprade.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:18 pm

Acid King wrote:Yeah thats what I meant. Sure, some milking, but judging by the scores not much and certainly not 40+ minutes per round of play milking if that's what it took TAC to get 42+mill.

The question remains: will most players be bothered enough to play the game for score? While boss milking isn't an issue for intermediates, the experts will have to consider that each boss battle can take up to five minutes a piece, and those battles do drag on somewhat. Would you rather play a game that is deeper and more rewarding in terms of score, such as Progear's jewelling or Guwange's coin chaining, or would you rather spend five minutes at a time flicking bubbles off a boss?

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:28 pm

Icarus wrote: If you count Kewing's old forum record of 29mil+, then I'd say that's a lot more then "slightly over" 50%. And I've seen the replay, there is some extensive boss milking going on.

So we had one score that extensively used boss milking. Wowee zowee... I dunno, I still think it's a lame reason not to include it since most of the people playing don't have the skill to successfully milk the bosses, we've already had two games (Blazing Star being the big offender and Batrider) that used milking pretty extensively. You can argue it's boring, but I don't think it's a reason to cut it out completely.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:33 pm

If you've got the patience to do it, then go ahead and vote for it.
There are far better, deeper and richer games available for Cave Week, however.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:35 pm

Icarus wrote:
The question remains: will most players be bothered enough to play the game for score? While boss milking isn't an issue for intermediates, the experts will have to consider that each boss battle can take up to five minutes a piece, and those battles do drag on somewhat. Would you rather play a game that is deeper and more rewarding in terms of score, such as Progear's jewelling or Guwange's coin chaining, or would you rather spend five minutes at a time flicking bubbles off a boss?

For me, I've been playing Ra.De on and off for a few months now, and I'd lean towards that since I'm not a fan of Guwange's orb based weapon system and I can play on my cab. I like Progear allright though, so I'm not averse to that choice.. Also, I think by focusing on the boss milking of Ra.De., you're ignoring the difficulty and technique required to score well on the stages with a lot of room for different approaches.

Also, taking into considerations experts, why wouldn't Guwange be discounted due to being able to counter stop it?

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:36 pm

What is the probable games that compose the Cave Week? Progear? Donpachi? Esprade? Guwange?

I'm thinking so, as well. Dangun Feveron'll probably be in the running too. If it's playable in MAME and is not DDP, it stands a good chance of making the short list.

A DOJ week would give me the perfect excuse to play it again, but could also treat me to the embarrassing experience of watching people who've never touched the game destroy in a matter of days a score that took me 60-80 hours of playtime over the span of several months to achieve. So I'm pretty much glad that it's right out.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:44 pm

Acid King wrote:Also, taking into considerations experts, why wouldn't Guwange be discounted due to being able to counter stop it?

More skill is required to counterstop Guwange than it is to bossmilk Esprade. Due to the fact that the bosses actually get harder in Guwange as time goes on, unlike Esprade. Plus scoring is a lot more difficult in Guwange, yet more fluid, and more enjoyable.

Funny how the game that came out after the divine Dodonpachi turned out to be hideously boring if played extensively for score.

Guwange > Esprade

At the end of the day it's up to Edge. I have the feeling that Esprade won't get that many votes in the face of it's potential poll competition, however.

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:34 pm

IIRC the counterstop video score only reaches 99,999,999 after the game finishes and the end game bonuses are worked out.

mulletgeezer · Post by **mulletgeezer** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:06 pm

yeah, i think he ends with over 80 million, then he gets a few million bonus for bombs/life and a massive 10 x chain bonus. guwange has a counter stop but it requires truly insane skills to get it - i've never heard of a western player that can even attain 20% of the max score so if guwange is chosen for cave week there won't be too many players here getting a counterstop.

Acid King: The milking in BS and APB doesn't compare to Esprade. Try it and you'll understand, it doubles the length of the game.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:54 pm

The only cave game I truly enjoy is Guwange, though I don't find any of them exactly crap. I suck at all of them though (even Guwange). I still will do my best on the cave week, but my team really shouldn't count on me

I hope Guwange gets selected. If not, then Feveron, as I haven't played it a lot. I have barely playes Esprade too, ,but as it has this boring milking involved , I don't want to play it on this tournament

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:15 pm

All I want is DDP DOJ for Cave week! Is that really too much to ask for?

If the problem would be th emulation of that title, I'd second my teammate's request and rather get ProGear.

It'll probably be the lamer Dodonpachi though.

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:15 pm

Rob wrote:
Nemo wrote:"Hi, I'm Rob, I make you join MY tEaM and then I talk smack about u. GAH."
I see, you've taken something I've said personally. Cheer up, Nemo!

Don't worry, you didn't bother me, I was just having some fun at your expense. BTW for anyone wondering, it is all true though, but I already knew how Rob was when I joined the team, so I'm used to it. GAH.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:22 pm

Nemo wrote:Don't worry, you didn't bother me,

You're bringing the lulz lately.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:23 pm

Rob wrote:
Nemo wrote:Don't worry, you didn't bother me,
You're bringing the lulz lately.

Lulz.

If I was in the comp 'officially' then I would probably go for Progear, or Guwange. I've had a bit of an obsession for progear lately, and I have hardly ever played Guwange even though I thought it was excellent.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:15 pm

Icarus wrote:
More skill is required to counterstop Guwange than it is to bossmilk Esprade. Due to the fact that the bosses actually get harder in Guwange as time goes on, unlike Esprade. Plus scoring is a lot more difficult in Guwange, yet more fluid, and more enjoyable.
.

Whaaat? That's some horse right there, Icarus. The bosses definitely scale and get harder. Boss milking say, the 4th stage boss, especially with the dense later sprays, is fucking HARD, much more difficult than the earlier bosses. Especially considering that you have to throw the bubble shots on an angle, which means you have to be moving while firing and that after the second stage, the boss patterns give less and less room for movement. You can claim it's harder to counter stop Guwange, but saying Ra.De's bosses don't get harder is crap.

Acid King: The milking in BS and APB doesn't compare to Esprade. Try it and you'll understand, it doubles the length of the game.

I have tried it, I know exactly what you're talking about, I know it makes the game longer. It's comparable in this way; the boss milking trick with Peplos was allowed in the first week (How long does that extend the game for?) though I don't know that anyone did it because it's hard and boring. Not to mention (going by maximum point values here) APB's WR is close to 30 million, right? That's all extra bosses and boss milking with 10k medals. How much longer do you think that is from a regular Advance all clear?

Lookit, I understand you guys think boss milking in Ra.De. is stupid and boring but to say it shouldn't be in the vote because of the boss milking is silly. 50% of the max comes from that but the current board record is only few million more than half that. Not to mention that big percentages of points from previous games came from boss milking. Some silly, sick crazy skills are required to just pull 50% from the stages, and facking hard to get good chunk of the boss milking. Regardless, it doesn't look like it will win so this discussion is pretty much over.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:31 pm

Acid King wrote:
Icarus wrote:
More skill is required to counterstop Guwange than it is to bossmilk Esprade. Due to the fact that the bosses actually get harder in Guwange as time goes on, unlike Esprade. Plus scoring is a lot more difficult in Guwange, yet more fluid, and more enjoyable.
.
Whaaat? That's some horse right there, Icarus. The bosses definitely scale and get harder. Boss milking say, the 4th stage boss, especially with the dense later sprays, is fucking HARD, much more difficult than the earlier bosses. Especially considering that you have to throw the bubble shots on an angle, which means you have to be moving while firing and that after the second stage, the boss patterns give less and less room for movement. You can claim it's harder to counter stop Guwange, but saying Ra.De's bosses don't get harder is crap.

He's saying that the longer you let bosses live, the angrier they get and that is reflected in the difficulty of shot patterns. I.E. kill a boss quickly to have an easy time. Let him live and milk him to deal with tough, fast patterns.

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:39 pm

Acid King wrote:Whaaat? That's some horse right there, Icarus. The bosses definitely scale and get harder. Boss milking say, the 4th stage boss, especially with the dense later sprays, is fucking HARD, much more difficult than the earlier bosses. Especially considering that you have to throw the bubble shots on an angle, which means you have to be moving while firing and that after the second stage, the boss patterns give less and less room for movement. You can claim it's harder to counter stop Guwange, but saying Ra.De's bosses don't get harder is crap.

So what if you're flinging bubbles at an angle? You don't even have to move that much to do so, and the boss patterns certainly aren't that dense as to not allow you to attack in such a manner. Boss milking involves working during gaps in the patterns, and even the stage4 boss leaves plenty of breaks inbetween pattern shifts to let you get a few shots in.

Milking in Guwange and Progear takes just as much, if not more effort due to the already difficult scoring systems (Guwange: holding coin chain and coin farming; Progear: jewel farming) and the fact that the bosses are actually hard and whose patterns visibly scale upwards as quickly as the second cycle. The bosses in Esprade appear to not scale their patterns up with each cycle, letting you milk confidently. And the game starts to get tough at... what...? Stage 4?

Or did you not know about the difficulty scaling of boss attack patterns, which is what I was originally commenting on? Even Cave themselves knew of the problems of boss milking that was exploited by Esprade players, and who endeavored to make boss milking more difficult to players with their subsequent games.

Sure, if Esprade is your thing, then by all means you'd rate it over Guwange. I've played both extensively and prefer Guwange - better scoring system, better stage design, more intuitive, far more enjoyable.

Acid King wrote:Regardless, it doesn't look like it will win so this discussion is pretty much over.

It didn't need us talking negatively about the game to drop it's chances of getting votes. I'd suspect the majority of votes for the other games are based on the fact that people rate those games over Esprade, possibly for the same reasons we've been discussing. Surprised? If it wasn't for Donpachi, I'd suspect Esprade would be the lowest rated game out of Cave's complete catalogue.

But I agree, the argument is moot. So I'll let it rest here.

...

No I won't. Guwange >>>>>>>>> Esprade.

^_-

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:42 pm

Icarus wrote:If it wasn't for Dangun Feveron, I'd suspect Esprade would be the lowest rated game out of Cave's complete catalogue.

fixed

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:47 pm

Twiddle wrote:
Icarus wrote:If it wasn't for Dangun Feveron, I'd suspect Esprade would be the lowest rated game out of Cave's complete catalogue.
fixed

I dunno, Twiddle. I'd suspect Feveron is quite highly regarded, but the main reason it's not getting voted is because of its difficulty. People are only voting Donpachi because of the existence of ports which allows them to compete this week.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:49 pm

Dangun is so un-Cave it hurts certain people.

WILL THIS BE

THE ONLY WEEK

I DON'T PLAY?

(This is funny because this may be the only week (cough) SOME (cough) people play)

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:22 pm

Twiddle wrote:Dangun is so un-Cave it hurts certain people.
WILL THIS BE
THE ONLY WEEK
I DON'T PLAY?
(This is funny because this may be the only week (cough) SOME (cough) people play)

You know you'll be competing this week, anyway.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:24 pm

I'm just abysmally bad at scoring in any Cave game except for Dangun, where point blanking is something I can just carry over from Raiden Fighters et al and it's not like I don't know how to herd fast shots.

I can get the hang of Guwange, but I'm not sure one week will allow me to do a score higher than five million, which is around what I got when I last seriously played it two years ago.

I also WANT TO USE MY BOMB AS A WEAPON, something Cave games largely discourage for scoring.

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:38 pm

Twiddle wrote:I'm just abysmally bad at scoring in any Cave game except for Dangun, where point blanking is something I can just carry over from Raiden Fighters et al and it's not like I don't know how to herd fast shots.

I can get the hang of Guwange, but I'm not sure one week will allow me to do a score higher than five million, which is around what I got when I last seriously played it two years ago.

I also WANT TO USE MY BOMB AS A WEAPON, something Cave games largely discourage for scoring.

Yeah, Cave goes against my natural, Raizing-trained, suicidal tendencies. Plus getting bombs and then being penalised for using them is something I find quite hard to adjust to. >_<

Guwange isn't too hard to get used to, a lot of it is just careful use of the Shikigami and Shot to keep your chain meter up. It might not be Guwange this week anyway, as Progear and DP are busy leading the pack in votes at the moment.

NEED MORE GUWANGE VOTES DAMNIT!! >.<

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:32 am

Icarus wrote:Plus getting bombs and then being penalised for using them is something I find quite hard to adjust to.

Yeah, that's nothing like Raizing, which just instantly penalizes you for collecting, oh, ANYTHING.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:34 am

BulletMagnet wrote:
Icarus wrote:Plus getting bombs and then being penalised for using them is something I find quite hard to adjust to.
Yeah, that's nothing like Raizing, which just instantly penalizes you for collecting, oh, ANYTHING.

you're rewarded for using instead of collecting

Post by **Icarus** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:43 am

BulletMagnet wrote:Yeah, that's nothing like Raizing, which just instantly penalizes you for collecting, oh, ANYTHING.

Yeah, because in war, bombers just use their machine guns, and let their payload rust in the bomb hatch.
Seriously. （￣へ￣）

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:09 am

I'd figured you'd learned something from your last ill-fated foray into the "realism matters in shmups!" dimension, but apparently not.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:16 am

it's not a realism issue. being forced to use your AWESOME WEAPONS or having the option to do so and be rewarded for doing so is fun.

your score being raped permanently by pressing b to keep your game going -- not fun.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:19 am

Twiddle wrote:being forced to use your AWESOME WEAPONS or having the option to do so and be rewarded for doing so is fun.

Guess it depends on what you define as "awesome" weapons, seeing as the game more or less requires you to power up and utilize your main guns and options as little as possible. It's just the "bizarro" version of Cave, and vice versa.