A shmup or not?

[Stormwatch]

Which is more of a shmup: Thunderforce V Saturn or Thunderforce V PSX?

Shmups are hardcore. Saturn is more hardcore than Playstation. Therefore, TFV on Saturn is more shmup.

Bow before my m4d l0g1c sk1llz!

[tehkao]

Is Moon Patrol a shmup?

Is Silkworm a shmup? (if you just control the jeep)

Is Atomic Runner a shmup?

[Neon]

I didn't read any of this thread, never will.

[SPACE HARRIER]

Everybody has his own opinion about what is a shmup or not.
We can go one forever and there will always be new games that will have the question again "IS THIS A SHMUP OR NOT?"
I really can say to you all..Just enjoy all those GREAT shmups for many years to come!!

ps..SPACE HARRIER is still a true shmup for me!!...haaha...CHEERS shooterfriends!!

[tehkao]

BTW, as per the forced scroll/forced progression argument, IMHO a better criteria would be "forced movement".

I think that a TRUE shmup should be constantly moving. It doesn't have to be in a pre-determined direction, but your ship should always be in motion. For example I consider Bosconian, Time Pilot, and the overhead stages in TF2 as TRUE shmups, because while you can control the direction, the screen is constantly scrollling.

[CMoon]

And yet only half of us agree that what you're going in Galaga is fundamentally different from that.

I like this idea of 'proto-shmup'. There is absolutely no mystery that games like Galaga lead to modern shmups. As much as I feel Defender breaks too many rules to be called a shmup (unlike Galaga). it also clearly lead to shmups and was precisely what so many of us were calling space shooters long before the idea of shmups was invented.

There were after all feathered dinosaurs long before there were birds, and clearly some of thosse feathered dinos were the ancestors of birds. That does not mean feathered dinos = birds.

And Shmuppy bits just isn't enough to cut it! the GBA Astroboy is almost constaly a bit shmuppy with actualy shmup levels contained within--however, like a shmup, I also know when a game is a platorm game. Which brings me back to: if you jump, it isn't a shmup.

I agree -- but would you agree that it's still nice to know about "partial shmups," where at least a portion of the game is a shmup, but it isn't the major focus? Arguably, this would not only include stuff like Astro Boy and Gunstar Heroes, but everything up to Guardian Legend and Xexyz (no, Xexex is something else).

Absolutely. This isn't at all like saying I only want to talk about shmups. A borderline forum would be frequented by me as much as the main forum.

You know, maybe we don't need special words for all these things--maybe we just need to say 'games like Strikers/Gradius/etc.', everyone would know that, and understand the Metal Slug, Space Harrier and even Robotron, while having basic similarities, are far more different from any of those games than those games are from each other. An ostrich is still much more like a Sparrow than any of the feathered dinosaurs were like any bird. I think the analogy is a good one and it is why I see no difficulty with this. (that said, I don't feel proto-shmup discussion should be moved out of on-topic, but that is because I think there is so little talk of those games that it would be inconsequential, it is seeing our board overrun by talk about modern active genres that would be problematic).

Zero Gunner 2? So it involves rotation? There is still forced scrolling, there is still dodging and weaving along a 2D plane, I also don't see a problem calling Ikari Warrior or whatever a shmup either. If you are freely dodging bullets along a 2D plane (IE, no gravity) while shooting and destroying enemies then it should be a shmup.

Space Harrier? You are absolutely right Nullstar, it is a proto-shmup done in 3D.

I didn't read any of this thread, never will.

Post count +1 !

[Neon]

Not really. Just wanted to annoy everyone who wrote a 5 page definition of a shmup.

Oh shit, I read it.

[CMoon]

Not really. Just wanted to annoy everyone who wrote a 5 page definition of a shmup.

Oh shit, I read it.

Sorry man, I teach innercity middle school kids. My tolerance at the end of the day for people who just want to annoy everyone can't be terribly much...

[Frogacuda]

And Shmuppy bits just isn't enough to cut it! the GBA Astroboy is almost constaly a bit shmuppy with actualy shmup levels contained within--however, like a shmup, I also know when a game is a platorm game. Which brings me back to: if you jump, it isn't a shmup.

This is a tangent, but Astroboy has like almost zero platforming in it. In order to be a platformer it has to involve like... hopping on suspended platforms and stuff, and Astroboy really doesn't. It's billed as a "2D Action" game, and that about as narrow as you can get.

I think that a TRUE shmup should be constantly moving. It doesn't have to be in a pre-determined direction, but your ship should always be in motion.

There are ALOT of true shmups that stop when you reach a boss.

Anyway, here's my attempt to define the genre:

A linear, 2D, planar action game where the action consists of primarily of dodging visible projectiles and firing back, and isn't more accurately described as a Run and Gun.

That way we include stuff like Cannon Spike, Robotron, and Fantasy Zone, which I think ought to be included.

[Fost]

Ok! Try quantifying this:

http://www.popcap.com/launchpage.php?th ... n&src=big8

shmup? It has forced scrolling, or do games that use mouse control not count