A shmup or not?

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professor ganson
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Post by professor ganson »

Let me now add my own view about how we should define shmups. I want to say that the concept of a shmup is what is called a "cluster concept." To illustrate the idea think of the concept of religion. We associate a cluster of things with the idea of religion: a supreme being, a moral code, rituals, prayer... The point is that something can count as a religion even if it lacks some one (or even more) of the features in the cluster, as long as it satisfies nearly all of them (at any rate most of them). Note furthermore that in the case of a cluster concept, some components of the cluster may be absolutely core features, features without which we wouldn't have the thing in question. My suggestion is that the concept of a shmup is a cluster concept with three core components: if something is going to be a shmup, then it must be a videogame, a shooter, and lack a z-axis. But now we can fill out the concept by mentioning other components of the cluster that are not core in this sense: there is typically a scoring system often including combos, power-ups, forced scrolling...
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Post by professor ganson »

One question I have about this: Must a shmup involve dodging enemies/enemy fire/features of the environment? I cannot think of a shooter that lacks this feature. Perhaps it is a fourth core feature, additional to the three I mentioned previously.
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Post by Blue Lander »

During most of the "What's a shmup?" arguments here, most people use "I know a shmup when I see one" as their way of determining if a game is a shmup or not. But I think it is possible to make a more specific definition by using the "cluster concept" you mention.

Basically, a shmup isn't a game or a list of features, it's a style of gameplay. It's more of an esoteric thing than something you can put your thumb on, but I think the "shmup gameplay" has two primary components and primary purposes...

1: Free ability to dodge and weave through bullets/ships/projectiles/missiles/enemies/whatever

2: Destruction by firepower of as many enemies as possible for high score. In the words of Gradius II, "Destroy them all!"

So that's the more esoteric definition. I think there's a definable list of gameplay features that are needed to achieve this shmuppy gameplay. If a game has all of these features, it's a shmup. There should be no doubt in anybody's mind about that. If it's missing one or two of these features yet achieves the ideals of "shmup gameplay", then it's probably a shmup. If it's missing one or two of these features but doesn't fully achieve the ideals of "shmup gameplay", then it's a borderliner.

1: There must be free 2d movement (no gravity). No platforming games.

2: The gameplay field must consist of one or more 2D planes. Games like Vertical Force, Soukyugurentai and Raystorm are basically two 2D playing fields stacked on top of eachother, so those are okay. But you and your enemies should not have 3D coordinates. So no Wing Commander.

2: Your bullets and enemy bullets must travel along an axis that is completely visible to the player. Meaning you must see the bullet along it's path towards you. I think seeing "waves" of bullets coming at your and their trajectories is imperative to the shmup gameplay style. So isometric games like Iridion II or Tempest 2000 are in, but ones like Space Harrier and Afterburner where the bullets just get larger as they approach you are out.

3: Forced scrolling. The game should decide the pace and direction, not you.

4: The thing or creature that you're controlling must be visible. So no Doom or rail shooters where you just see the aiming sight.

So if it has these four features and achieves the two ideals of shmup gameplay, it's a shmup. Beyond that, there are other features that most shmups seem to have. They don't make the game a shmup, but they enhance and complement shmup game play. Stuff like...

1: The ability to power up your weapon and your ship.

2: The game is split into discrete levels with bosses at the end.

3: You're rewarded for killing enemies in a specific way (stuff like chaining)

4: Lots of little enemies you can kill in one shot.

... and so on.

And finally, there's a practical matter. If a game fits better in a different genre (run 'n gun, rail shooter, racing game), then it isn't a shmup. Questionable shmups should fit best in the shmup genre.

So what about these questionable games? Fantasy Zone doesn't have forced scrolling. So it is it a shmup? Yes. Because it satisfies all the other requirements, and it achieves "Shmup gameplay" (dodging bullets and shooting enemies).

How about Defender? It satisfies all but one requirement. And the game does feature freely dodging bullets and destroying enemies. But I'd argue that your primary purpose in Defender isn't destroying enemies, it's rescuing those little people. So I'd say Defender is something unique, and not a shmup. And from the practical point of view, Defender doesn't need a genre. It's Defender, one of the all time classics.

How about Spy Hunter? It satsifes all requirements except forced scrolling (you can choose how fast the game accelerates). And it has things like powerups. But bullet dodging and destroying other cars isn't your primary function. This game fits better as a racing/action title, so it isn't a shmup.

How about Galaga? It satisfies all the requirements except free 2D movement. You can only move back and forth. But your primary purpose is destroying enemies and dodging bullets. But the "bullet dodging" gameplay is lessened by the fact you can't move up and down. So I'd say Galaga achieves shmup gameplay, but in a less perfect way than later games did. So it's a shmup, but it isn't as shmuppy as Xevious or Scramble or something.
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Post by SPACE HARRIER »

I think the best way is to split them up into groups..

1.Scrolling shooters..(gradius,r-type,gigawing)
2.Platform shooters..(metal slug,contra)
3.Arena shooters..(robotron 2084,total carnage)
4.others..(space harrier,missle command,tempest,mercs)

AND they all feel and play like shmups to me!

Just look at racinggames;you got driving simulators,arcade racers,top down racers, either a car/boat/plane/motor..they have all one thing in common, WIN THE DAMN RACE

So all SHMUPS have one thing in common; IF IT MOVES,SHOOT IT WITH YOUR GUN/PLASMA LASERS/BOMBS/MISSLES and KILL IT!!
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a suggested reconciliation

Post by professor ganson »

In my (enjoyable) time on this forum, I have come to believe that the term 'shmup' really has two senses, and that we would do well to distinguish these.

Sense 1: A shmup strictly speaking (the less inclusive sense). Following Blue Lander, we should say that a shmup strictly speaking is a videogame that exemplifies a specific ideal of gameplay:
i) free ability to dodge through enemies, enemy fire, environmental structures, etc.
ii) destruction by firepower of as many enemies as possible for a high score.
Shmups strictly speaking realize these gameplay ideals through specific gameplay features. Some of these gameplay features are more central to our cluster concept of a shmup, others are less central. (See Blue Lander's lists for details.)

Sense 2: A shmup loosely speaking (the more inclusive sense). Following Space Harrier, we can think of a shmup loosely speaking as any 2D shooter. In this loose sense we can distinguish at least the following kinds of shmups:
1. Shmups strictly speaking
2. Platform shooters
3. Arena shooters
4. Defender-Fantasy Zone shooters
5. Others... (see Space Harrier's discussion for details)

Once we have this distinction in place, we can ask whether our top 25 lists ought to be lists of shmups strictly speaking or of shmups loosely speaking. Perhaps we should be asking this question!
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Post by Shatterhand »

Well... In The Hunt has no forced scroll. Does anyone dare to say that is NOT a shmup? (Actually, I sometimes think that In The Hunt is one game that makes shmup definition a lot harder :D)

Also, in Defender, you only get past a stage after destroying all enemies... I always think the " save the little guys" is more of a "score gimmick"...
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Post by BrianC »

Any comments on Total Carnage? Like I said before, It's an extremely hard game to define. I'm wonding what your opinion of it is.
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Re: a suggested reconciliation

Post by nullstar »

Blue Lander wrote:In a way Galaga does have forced scrolling. The star field in the back continuously scrolls.
But this is precisely why the notion that a shmup must include forced scrolling doesn't make sense -- sure the background scrolls, but you're not interacting with it so it's just a cosmetic thing. (In some games you do interact with the scrolling level, but that fact doesn't generally make the game more or less of a shooter.) What I would agree is important (and seems to be what you're really getting at) is that the game decides when to throw more enemies at you vs. you deciding for yourself -- I've tended to refer to is as the "intensity" factor that distinguishes the shooter genre (in general) from other games that have elements of a shooter, but aren't totally focused on that. (I will also suggest that "the intensity test" can't be objectively applied -- similar to the question of which genre a game best fits in.)
Blue Lander wrote:Nobody's really come up with a good definition of what is or isn't a shmup. But most people agree that Contra style games, Robotron style games, Space Harrier style games, Wing Commander style games, Star Fox style games, and Doom style games aren't shmups. And it seems people are 50/50 on Space Invaders and Galaga, too.
I'd say whether or not Robotron-style shooters are shmups or not is close to being as contentious as games only permitting a single axis of player movement (e.g. Galaga, SI) -- say 35/65 vs. 50/50. The others you mention all involve 3D gameplay and -- you're right -- most people wouldn't consider them shmups. (That is unless they look at it from a purely linguistic perspective and equate "shmup" w/ "shoot-em-up" w/ "shooter".) But around here, except for maybe a rogue review every few years, shmup has always implied a 2D-but-not-3D-shooter -- even if not much else about the definition has remained static. ;)
professor ganson wrote:In my (enjoyable) time on this forum, I have come to believe that the term 'shmup' really has two senses, and that we would do well to distinguish these.
I think the issue here is that one person's shmup is another person's "not quite even though it's a shooter" genre; that is to say, people use their differing definitions to their own ends, and there are roughly to major schools of thought of what constitutes a shmup or not -- which you've approximately defined here. Several years ago, I drafted a taxonomy to try and get some discussion going on the topic. (I never finished it, however, and looking at it again tonight it contains some embarrassing errors -- like Gyruss in the Space Harrier category.) That said, the taxonomy -- and a good couple years of discussion -- helped me see the limits of how far game geometries could go do define "shmup." In the end, I think we end up with something not too far from what Blue Lander has outlined here (though I would modify a few more things) -- but it's not a strict checklist of features that can be objectively processed for each game to decide where particular games fall -- sometimes the jury has to be brought in to render a decision.
professor ganson wrote:Sense 1: A shmup strictly speaking (the less inclusive sense). Following Blue Lander, we should say that a shmup strictly speaking is a videogame that exemplifies a specific ideal of gameplay:
i) free ability to dodge through enemies, enemy fire, environmental structures, etc.
ii) destruction by firepower of as many enemies as possible for a high score.
Shmups strictly speaking realize these gameplay ideals through specific gameplay features. Some of these gameplay features are more central to our cluster concept of a shmup, others are less central. (See Blue Lander's lists for details.)
But the devil is in deciding the importance of those features/attributes/concepts. 95% of us probably agree what a 2D shooter is. 45% of those see no real difference between games where the player only moves left and right, while 45% see it as vitally important. Who knows how many more views the remaining 10% have. Some people can be swayed to one position or another because they haven't thought the issue through -- others have thought it through and won't be persuaded to change that position. I won't say that it's a pointless discussion to have periodically, but I doubt it will ever be as successful as most people think it will be the first time they get involved.
professor ganson wrote:Sense 2: A shmup loosely speaking (the more inclusive sense). Following Space Harrier, we can think of a shmup loosely speaking as any 2D shooter. In this loose sense we can distinguish at least the following kinds of shmups:
1. Shmups strictly speaking
2. Platform shooters
3. Arena shooters
4. Defender-Fantasy Zone shooters
5. Others... (see Space Harrier's discussion for details)
For purposes of the shmups forum: we do ourselves a disservice by referring to anything as a shmup that isn't considered On Topic in shmups chat. (But for each's own purposes: knock yourselves out.) Currently, a couple of the 2D shooter subgenres you mentioned there are considered Borderliners -- that is, shooters, but not quite shmups. But as mentioned, you'll find a lot of people who will question why 3 and 4 are considered less shmuppy than a strict definition -- Galaga more like Gradius or the Platonic Shmup Ideal than Fantasy Zone? Please... ;)
professor ganson wrote:Once we have this distinction in place, we can ask whether our top 25 lists ought to be lists of shmups strictly speaking or of shmups loosely speaking. Perhaps we should be asking this question!
For the record (again?), the reason stuff like Galaga is considered offically in-bounds this year is because the site admins have a soft spot in their hearts for such games. In past years, I didn't count it against people if they voted for such games (even thought it wasn't encouraged) but the Admin Vibes have changed and now votes for such games are encouraged.
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Post by Blue Lander »

Shatterhand wrote:Well... In The Hunt has no forced scroll. Does anyone dare to say that is NOT a shmup? (Actually, I sometimes think that In The Hunt is one game that makes shmup definition a lot harder :D)
Well, I'd say that since it satisfies most of the gameplay requirements for a shmup and also achieves "shmup gameplay", that it is a shmup under my definition.
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Post by black mariah »

Everyone in this thread sounds like some douche-y 15 year olds arguing over what constitutes 'harcore'. "Dude, Atreyu is SOOOO much more hardcore than As I lay Dying!"

:roll:

Look, I'll put it this way, if you have to ask then it isn't a shmup. End of story.
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Post by TWITCHDOCTOR »

SPACE HARRIER wrote:I think the best way is to split them up into groups..

1.Scrolling shooters..(gradius,r-type,gigawing)
2.Platform shooters..(metal slug,contra)
3.Arena shooters..(robotron 2084,total carnage)
4.others..(space harrier,missle command,tempest,mercs)

AND they all feel and play like shmups to me!

Just look at racinggames;you got driving simulators,arcade racers,top down racers, either a car/boat/plane/motor..they have all one thing in common, WIN THE DAMN RACE

So all SHMUPS have one thing in common; IF IT MOVES,SHOOT IT
WITH YOUR GUN/PLASMA LASERS/BOMBS/MISSLES and KILL IT!!

"If it moves, shoot it with your gun"...so I guess with this logic, we all have to to accept Halo as a shmup?

Sorry dude...its a FPS. Games like Smash TV and Doom are similar, its just that one is played/viewed trough the eyes of the main character, and the other is "top-down" view. So yea, even the view in which the game is played can dictate what style of game it is.
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Post by Dylan1CC »

Frogacuda: Forced Scrolling should not be requisite for a shmup. Fantasy Zone is absolutely a shmup and it doesn't have forced scrolling.
Fantasy Zone does indeed have forced scrolling when you aren't moving back and forth.
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Post by Shatterhand »

You know... I usually tend to not post on this kind of thread, as it never gets anywhere really.

But yesterday I went to bed thinking about it.... (Maybe a play of Tempest 2000 before going to bed help it, with all this talking about Tempest not being a shmup).

I always feel that a shmup must have the action centred in 2 key-features:

1 - You have to dodge enemies/bullets
2 - You have to shoot enemies

You also NEED those features in a game:

1 - The game must be played in a somehow 2D world. (Tempest and Gyruss DOES fit here.. also Soukyugurentai, but not SPace Harrier or Star Fox)
2 - The main character can move only in a 2d axis or a 1d axis (Galaga?)
3 - The main character has to be visible.

The game must NOT have any of those elements

1 - Gravity. Aleste Gaiden and Last Duel has no gravity. I think it's easier to say "Platformy action" than "gravity" :D

And then, the game has to feature at least one of those elementes:

1 - Forced scroll
2 - You can shoot in only one direction

I dunno, but for ME, this seemed to be perfect. IT leaves Asteroids games out, but then I begun to believe they are not real shmups, but Arena shooters. But then I noticed it leaces Fantasy Zone, Defender and all thos games out.

So, I add this element to the last rule

3 - Be a defender clone

And now, for me, that's a perfect definition, unless someone proves me wrong.


Please, to anyone who says that Defender and Tempest aren't shmups. Don't go saying "Oohh, they are a unique kind of things". Think about it, if you HAD to give it a genre, what would you call it? Arena SHooters? 3D shooter? Run 'n Gun?

I can't think of ANYTHING that fits better than "Shmup". And both games are inside of the above rules, so...

Well, just my 1/2 cent...
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Post by dboeren »

And then, the game has to feature at least one of those elementes:

1 - Forced scroll
2 - You can shoot in only one direction
3 - Be a defender clone

And now, for me, that's a perfect definition, unless someone proves me wrong.
There are some issues with #2. Quite a few shmups have ways to shoot in more than one direction. Spread and 4-way shots, detaching your pod and sticking it on another part of your ship, the rotating shooty thing in Prehistoric Isle, and so on.

#3 just seems arbitrary

Also, for #1 I want to point out something that most people miss. Forced scrolling does not refer to graphics. It refers to gameplay! Who cares what some scenery tiles are doing, the important aspect is that the game action moves forward and you can't stop it from doing so.
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Post by system11 »

How far down the spiral of madness must you all continue? It's not possible to define with rules - you have to apply common sense and judgement, as people should with topics.
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Post by professor ganson »

Nullstar's insightful comments has had my head reeling, but Shatterhand has restored some of my confidence.

When there is evenly divided disagreement about how to use a term of art, it is usually a good idea to devise new terminology to mark the division. No doubt there is something wrong with the following suggestion, but it seems to me to be going in the right direction.

We need to distinguish:

I. A shmup in the strictest sense of the term. And we define it as follows:
Shatterhand wrote:a shmup must have the action centred in 2 key-features:

1 - You have to dodge enemies/bullets
2 - You have to shoot enemies

You also NEED those features in a game:

1 - The game must be played in a somehow 2D world. (Tempest and Gyruss DOES fit here.. also Soukyugurentai, but not SPace Harrier or Star Fox)
2 - The main character can move only in a 2d axis or a 1d axis (Galaga?)
3 - The main character has to be visible.

The game must NOT have any of those elements

1 - Gravity. Aleste Gaiden and Last Duel has no gravity. I think it's easier to say "Platformy action" than "gravity" :D
...
And for a shmup in the strictest sense of the term we must add one more necessary game feature:

4 forced scrolling

II. A shmup in the less-strict sense is to be distinguished as follows. A shmup in the less-strict sense is just like a shmup in the strictest sense except that it does not include 4 (forced scrolling).

Now some will no doubt argue that the problem here is that Defender and Fantasy Zone are shmups if anything is, so that it is misleading to describe them as shmups in this less-strict sense. My response to this is that if people don't like the terminology we can change it. There still does seem to be a worthwhile distinction to be drawn between I and II, as is clear from the fact that there is so much dispute about what to say about Defender.

One further point. We may want to distinguish yet another category: a shmup in the loose sense of the term. We may want to do so, e.g., to allow that platform shooters like metal slug and contra will count as shmups.

Feedback much desired!
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Post by Ex_Mosquito »

Who the hell cares if a borderline is classed as a "shmup" or not, does it REALLY matter?? AGH!!!!
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Post by sffan »

Shatterhand wrote: The game must NOT have any of those elements

1 - Gravity. Aleste Gaiden and Last Duel has no gravity. I think it's easier to say "Platformy action" than "gravity" :D
Lots of shmups have gravity, as when bombs fall to the ground in Scramble, P-47, etc. Even vertical shmups like Xevious have bombs that fall via gravity.
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Post by professor ganson »

Ex_Mosquito wrote:Who the hell cares if a borderline is classed as a "shmup" or not, does it REALLY matter?? AGH!!!!
Of course, there is ALWAYS a perspective from which our concerns in life look arbitrary and unmotivated. I concede, however, that very little is at stake in this particular issue. Before I was suggesting that the issue might matter in determining which set of games might be candidates for the top 25 games. But even if that issue is no longer on the table, as nullstar has suggested, I would personally like to have a definition that I could share with my non-shmuping (or is it 'non-shmupping'?) friends and family. My friends at work often demand extreme precision, as they are experts in logic and such. A further point: wouldn't it be nice to have an agreed-upon definition somewhere connected to the shmups forum, say, on the mainpage of shmups.com? Wouldn't YOU like to help craft such a definition?
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Post by dboeren »

Lots of shmups have gravity, as when bombs fall to the ground in Scramble, P-47, etc. Even vertical shmups like Xevious have bombs that fall via gravity.
I think they just meant gravity applied to your ship. Not powerups, bonus items, or bullets.

I think in reality "gravity" is just an example and the real requirement is more about that your ship is always under your direct control and is not acted on by external forces that influence its movement.

Even that has borderline cases. Cyvern has a scene where the big boss ship takes off and the backdraft makes your sprite shake a bit. It's done when there are no enemies or bullets onscreen so it doesn't actually affect you, but you are still in control so it's not quite just a cutscene.
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Post by Ganelon »

Wolf Fang and Atomic Robo-Kid both have gravity and thrusters. So does that Robotech GBA game in certain transformations. Does that make them less shmuppy?
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Post by Davey »

Which is more of a shmup: Thunderforce V Saturn or Thunderforce V PSX?
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Post by system11 »

professor ganson wrote:My friends at work often demand extreme precision, as they are experts in logic and such. A further point: wouldn't it be nice to have an agreed-upon definition somewhere connected to the shmups forum, say, on the mainpage of shmups.com? Wouldn't YOU like to help craft such a definition?
No, because it's absolutely pointless. Any eventual definition can be torn down in mere seconds with just one more game that doesn't fit the model.

Some things are judgement calls. To put some sense of scale to the discussion, we're discussing something that's blatantly obvious to anyone with a functioning brain (at least I hope it is), while genuine scientists are actually having to look at redefining what constitutes a star or planet.
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Post by professor ganson »

bloodflowers wrote: Any eventual definition can be torn down in mere seconds with just one more game that doesn't fit the model.

Some things are judgement calls. To put some sense of scale to the discussion, we're discussing something that's blatantly obvious to anyone with a functioning brain (at least I hope it is), while genuine scientists are actually having to look at redefining what constitutes a star or planet.
While it doesn't take an advanced degree to understand the term 'shmup', it is worthwhile to keep in mind that it's not a part of everyday English, so there does seem to be some point to having a working definition. Though, you may be right that our efforts will ultimately fail.

On a different note: thanks bloodflowers for the review of Shienryu Explosion. I've been curious about this game because I've always loved Shienryu on the Saturn.
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Post by Shatterhand »

dboeren wrote:
And then, the game has to feature at least one of those elementes:

1 - Forced scroll
2 - You can shoot in only one direction
3 - Be a defender clone

And now, for me, that's a perfect definition, unless someone proves me wrong.
There are some issues with #2. Quite a few shmups have ways to shoot in more than one direction. Spread and 4-way shots, detaching your pod and sticking it on another part of your ship, the rotating shooty thing in Prehistoric Isle, and so on.

#3 just seems arbitrary

Also, for #1 I want to point out something that most people miss. Forced scrolling does not refer to graphics. It refers to gameplay! Who cares what some scenery tiles are doing, the important aspect is that the game action moves forward and you can't stop it from doing so.
Well, that's why I said it only has to have ONE of the elements, not all.

And I wasn't taking "4 way shots" and stuff like that on account. I was more like changing the direction like Robotron or Asteroids or Commando.

Forgotten Worlds, for example, you can change the direction of your shots, but it has forced scroll, so its a shmup.


But in the end, I really think all this discussion is pointless. Try to describe what is "dog" or "water" or "house" without resorting to a dictionary.. it's not easy!. Yet you know one when you see one. Same thing with shmups :)
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Post by Dylan1CC »

I don't see why changing the direction of your shot would matter either. Why would the shot have to be fixed? In gradius 3 you can choose the 4 way lazer. Also, Gate of Thunder allows you to use your gun pods to shoot behind you as an example.
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Post by CMoon »

I haven't gotten back to this thread for a while. You remember, I said 'If you jump, it isn't a shmup', to many boos and hisses.

But my point is made here nicely:
Blue Lander wrote:
1: Free ability to dodge and weave through bullets/ships/projectiles/missiles/enemies/whatever
It isn't the nature of jumping itself that is a problem, but that because when you jump and are now fighting gravity, you are not freely dodging bullets, but rather are limited by the original speed of your jump and the decline.

I agree with the 'I know a shmup when I see it', because it is a very tight-knit genre preceeded by a vast number of proto-shmups (that never quite fit the rules!)

I think you just have to ask 'Am I doing the same thing I do in Raiden/Gradius/Strikers)?' I feel what you are doing in Gunstar Heroes (despite its greatness) is fundamentally different than what you are doing in those other games.

And Shmuppy bits just isn't enough to cut it! the GBA Astroboy is almost constaly a bit shmuppy with actualy shmup levels contained within--however, like a shmup, I also know when a game is a platorm game. Which brings me back to: if you jump, it isn't a shmup.

To me (of course) this seems simple. My reason for wanting the shmup chat forum to remain about shmups is because I think a shmup (as we've defined it in multiple ways) uses a different set of skils than run&guns and platformers.
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nullstar
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Post by nullstar »

Shatterhand wrote:I always feel that a shmup must have the action centred in 2 key-features:

1 - You have to dodge enemies/bullets
2 - You have to shoot enemies
i.e. It's a Shooter. (Though I'd add that this is the primary game dynamic.)
Shatterhand wrote:You also NEED those features in a game:

1 - The game must be played in a somehow 2D world. (Tempest and Gyruss DOES fit here.. also Soukyugurentai, but not Space Harrier or Star Fox)
i.e. It's a 2D shooter.
Shatterhand wrote:2 - The main character can move only in a 2d axis or a 1d axis (Galaga?)
I'll leave that alone for now. ;)
Shatterhand wrote:3 - The main character has to be visible.
i.e. 3rd person perspective. (Which brings up an interesting point: if you were to do a game like Space Raiders but permit the player two degrees of freedom, the screen could scale out but then everything would be too small -- so you would have to basically restrict the part of the field of play the player can see to what is in front of them.

So I find myself going w/ Blue Lander's point:
The field of play must be fully visible to the player.
Shatterhand wrote:The game must NOT have any of those elements

1 - Gravity. Aleste Gaiden and Last Duel has no gravity. I think it's easier to say "Platformy action" than "gravity"
Some shmups do feature gravity (or, occasionally, inertia)...Maybe it's better to say: "The player's character doesn't move relative to the field of play without their intervention." and then have a separate "Not a platformer" test.
Shatterhand wrote:And then, the game has to feature at least one of those elementes:

1 - Forced scroll
How about "Forced Progression"? I think that gets to the point of what background (usually) scrolling tries to accomplish. I don't remember if that helps you at all w/ Fantasy Zone or Defender...
Shatterhand wrote:2 - You can shoot in only one direction
I know this is generally the case -- at least for the pea-shooter -- but I wouldn't agree with it as a necessity.
CMoon wrote:I think you just have to ask 'Am I doing the same thing I do in Raiden/Gradius/Strikers)?' I feel what you are doing in Gunstar Heroes (despite its greatness) is fundamentally different than what you are doing in those other games.
And yet only half of us agree that what you're going in Galaga is fundamentally different from that.

(By the way: has anyone considered that Space Harrier is the 3D analogue (I think that's the word) to Galaga? That is, the player is only free to move in one dimension less than the space of the gamefield. I'm curious how many people see Space Harrier as fundamentally different from something like Descent...that is if you feel that Descent is a shooter, though that shouldn't stop discussion of "would it be different".)
CMoon wrote:And Shmuppy bits just isn't enough to cut it! the GBA Astroboy is almost constaly a bit shmuppy with actualy shmup levels contained within--however, like a shmup, I also know when a game is a platorm game. Which brings me back to: if you jump, it isn't a shmup.
I agree -- but would you agree that it's still nice to know about "partial shmups," where at least a portion of the game is a shmup, but it isn't the major focus? Arguably, this would not only include stuff like Astro Boy and Gunstar Heroes, but everything up to Guardian Legend and Xexyz (no, Xexex is something else).
Fost wrote:Maybe this board needs another forum though: 'Almost On Topic'.
If we unleashed a Borderliners section now, we'd get even more howls over where the various genres got placed. I'm mostly thinking of arena shooters here...which means I'm also thinking of non-platform run'n'guns (e.g. Commando).
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TVG
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Post by TVG »

so zero gunner 2 isnt a shmup?

whats the point...

you know what is a shmup, just need to mention if 3d shooters (space harrier, panzer dragoon) and run'n'guns fits the category.
as i see on this site, they dont, but in the end, why does it matter?
princec
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Post by princec »

When I was a lad a shmup was called a shoot-em-up, and it involved shooting. That was the only definition. Anything with bullets in it was a shoot-em-up. Why's it suddenly changed now I'm 31?

Cas :)
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