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 Post subject: Why bother?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:09 am 


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I keep telling myself that I'll get good at a particular shmup with enough practice. But I just don't have the perseverence, dedication, and time to improve, meaning that no matter what I'll always die by the stage 3 boss of Battle Garegga, die after 2 stages of Batrider, make the same mistakes on DDP:DOJ, and so on. I just play a specific shmup for a few days or weeks, then move on and come back to it later. I feel hopeless and completely n00b; I know that there are casual gamers who can't play shmups if their lives depended on it, and just want to have gun, but at the same time whenever I try to compete, I realize that I have only a little more skill and knowledge than said casual gamers. Should I even bother playing shmups competitively anymore?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:23 am 


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I have a time constraint for playing shmups. So I decided to focus serious practice on just one game, and play the others for fun, with no expectations. I'm actually making progress on the one and feel pretty good about it, while not getting completely bored or burned out on it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:24 am 


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Hey calm down, the competition is just meant to entertain you. ;)

I think the invention of n00bs or progamers is pretty hilarious. We all do this for fun. If you find it stressful to keep up with certain players then don't bother about their scores. I mainly try to break my own score, I don't mind other's scores so much. They are a nice motivation, but I don't think I am by any means under pressure to beat them.

I dunno why people come up with topics like do real shmuppers play on easy, can you credit feed. Don't worry what other people may tell you play the games the way you enjoy it, I think. And this community isn't build about how "hardcore" you are. Just some rendom people who like to play shmups, no one really cares who have better scores. :D

So don't bother, or don't push yourself. Shmups are meant to be fun. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:23 am 


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Before Rando gets here and starts bellyaching, I figure I ought to point out that there was a relatively recent topic here with a similar theme and a near-identical name. ;)

And to save anyone else from having to say it: "I'm still waiting for the 'omg what's rank???' topic!" :mrgreen:
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:48 am 



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I gotta admit I haven't tried to seriously one credit a shmup in months. There's too many great games and not enough time for me to focus on just one anymore. Curses.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:03 am 



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I just play to see if I can amaze myself by getting just that little bit further. My limit seems to be level 5, where as 6-12 months ago level 4 was a remarkable achievement.

You can't have modern gaming mentality with a shmup. The challenge is always a long term one unless its a familiar feel to an older one.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:41 am 


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neorichieb1971 wrote:
You can't have modern gaming mentality with a shmup. The challenge is always a long term one unless its a familiar feel to an older one.


Very true.

When I play shmups, I play just for the fun of it. Yeah, a close group of friends and myself compete with high scores and distance, but for me, it's all about dodging those bullets and throwin' shots right back. And Edge has a point: the competition is just for more entertainment. Whenever I break a high score or distance of my own is when I'm just totally having a good time. So do just that; have fun. :D
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 Post subject: Re: Why bother?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:29 am 


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gs68 wrote:
I keep telling myself that I'll get good at a particular shmup with enough practice.

Should I even bother playing shmups competitively anymore?


You should play what you enjoy and do what you want to do to have fun.

If you want to improve on a game, you can't "just play" unless you have a ton of talent. You have to be fairly disciplined, figure out where you are messing up, try to find out why you are messing up, and practice those areas over and over. If a world class player can take 80 hours to practice one level in ikaruga, it will probably take you or me 400 hours to get the same result. Do you want to put in the time? Is that your idea of fun?

Finally, PICK ONE GAME and play it 2-3 hours a day, 5 days a week. Do not expect to 1cc (finish all loops/stages) a game without months of practice. If you pick a really hard game like DOJ, it make take you years of practice. The other 2 days during the week play random games to take your mind off of what you are practicing, or don't play anything at all.

Good luck and remember to have fun when you play. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:10 am 


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the best competition is the competition against yourself :)
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:17 am 


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Deja Vu.. and what Shatterhand said
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 Post subject: Re: Why bother?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:36 am 



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gs68 wrote:
....and just want to have gun, ...


That typo gave me a chuckle, thanks. Good freudian fit.

It's about time we set up some kind of Shmuppers Anonymous group where we can hug and confess to our godawful shooting scores. I'm in no way making fun of you or this thread gs, but two recent topics on this say the average player is getting frustrated. Average meaning semi-godly in casual gamer terms. Me I'm even below that, and I know what you're talking about.

Why does it frustrate you though? If you want to get better, you'll have to bite down hard and put in the time. If like me you lack the perseverance to do so you'll never get there. Make the choice or get it out of your head fast. I'm seeing this with a lot of things recently. In any field we try to be competitive in we look to the best and forget we've left 99.5% of the population behind us already. You get frustrated and start switching fields, never mastering any of them. Yes we're 'only' talking about shooters here but the same rules apply. If you want to get better and not just screw around, you have to put in regular effort and be patient. It's like going to the gym: progress comes easy at first, then slows to a crawl, coming in unexpected bursts. And then it gets worse. Reading these boards sometimes reminds of gym stories (I took a long break and got a new PB on my first try back; I hit a plateau and suddenly I was over the hill etc.).

Face it: you're probably a proficient amateur if you're here and all that's gonna help now is perseverance. The few people who are better than you have been where you are and kept going. If you want sympathy, you got it. I'm tail-lighting this joint, I only ever 1-CC'ed Thunderforce III, and I think I was cheating while I did it too. How pathetic is that? Make up your mind and you'll feel better.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:56 am 


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I've got a story for you that'll make you feel better.

I'd been practising Gradius V for a few weeks and was quite pleased with myself after reaching some pretty good scores.
Then a friend (extremely casual) of mine came visiting and I put GV on and let him have a go.
- "Oh, it's that Nemesis game I played as a kid. Cooool!"

And...he trashed my hiscore in his third try.

So I put Dancing Stage Fusion in and beat (pun intended) him at his own game. Seeing that he is a pro dancer.

So, as long as I don't compete wth anyone I'm having a blast with shmups, that's why I ususally try to stay away from the competition bit if it.
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 Post subject: Re: Why bother?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:11 am 


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zlk wrote:
If you want to improve on a game, you can't "just play" unless you have a ton of talent. You have to be fairly disciplined, figure out where you are messing up, try to find out why you are messing up, and practice those areas over and over. If a world class player can take 80 hours to practice one level in ikaruga, it will probably take you or me 400 hours to get the same result. Do you want to put in the time? Is that your idea of fun?

Finally, PICK ONE GAME and play it 2-3 hours a day, 5 days a week. Do not expect to 1cc (finish all loops/stages) a game without months of practice. If you pick a really hard game like DOJ, it make take you years of practice. The other 2 days during the week play random games to take your mind off of what you are practicing, or don't play anything at all.

Good luck and remember to have fun when you play. :D

good advice zlk, but 2-3 hours a day is a bit much even if you have the time you will soon become disgusted of the game.
i would rather say, try to play 2 credits on week days when you're tired, and at least 1 hour on week end days. rotate your main game with a secondary game, say an horiz or a non-shmup.
you can't play well if it becomes work after you work day..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:13 am 



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Oh that reminds of that Marble Blast thing on XBOXLive Arcade. I was at a friends place and one of the last levels was driving me nuts. Some tricky jump'n'run tests with ventilators, no room, tilted floors. Now I fancy myself still pretty decent at jump'n'runs but this was kicking my ass. Told another friend about it, laying it on thick about how difficult it was. He came over, just sorta sat there asking "so this is it?" and cleared it on his first try. No luck involved either. Then we checked the online best times for the level and neither of us could possibly conceive of how those were even possible in direct flight, let alone rolling. We laughed our asses off and proceeed to try and beat each others extremely lousy Geometry Wars scores. Among the blind, the one-eyed is king.

It's a mind game. The art is to keep going. Do your thing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:52 am 


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I often find that those who suck at shmups have crappy setups.

That is not to say that you cannot get good with a crappy setup. You can, if you play a lot and are talented. I am sure that several people here will come up and say they kick ass on Dodonpachi on a 12 yoko monitor with a keyboard.

But if you are trying hard and still having trouble improving, I'd bet the car I don't have that you have a shitty setup.

For modern shmups you NEED a big, tated screen. BIG. TATED. At least 25 inches. And a nice, loose stick--not the stiff fighting ones. Forget about pads. Have you ever seen a Superplay DVD where they play with pads?

So, I'll say it again. Big, tated screen and good quality, loose stick.

Play on this sort of setup for a couple of weeks and you'll see what I mean.


Also:

Shatterhand wrote:
the best competition is the competition against yourself :)


The best competition is that amongst equals. Really.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:21 pm 


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icycalm wrote:
For modern shmups you NEED a big, tated screen. BIG. TATED. At least 25 inches. And a nice, loose stick--not the stiff fighting ones. Forget about pads. Have you ever seen a Superplay DVD where they play with pads?

So, I'll say it again. Big, tated screen and good quality, loose stick.


"A bad carpenter blames his tools".

The controller of choice is a matter of preference and to what you're accustomed to - every single one of my clears was done on a pad. Not saying I'm a pro player, but the idea that one needs a real arcade stick in order to get results in arcade games is a myth. SnapDragon, the guy who won the Ikaruga US competition, used the stock GC controller.

As for the screen...I have a 14'' monitor for tate use myself, and while I wouldn't mind if it was a bit bigger (21'' at max, though) I don't feel it has hindered my play any. Ex_Mosquito did his Strikers 1945 II ALL on a similar monitor.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:34 pm 


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Ghegs wrote:

"A bad carpenter blames his tools".

The controller of choice is a matter of preference and to what you're accustomed to - every single one of my clears was done on a pad. Not saying I'm a pro player, but the idea that one needs a real arcade stick in order to get results in arcade games is a myth. SnapDragon, the guy who won the Ikaruga US competition, used the stock GC controller.

As for the screen...I have a 14'' monitor for tate use myself, and while I wouldn't mind if it was a bit bigger (21'' at max, though) I don't feel it has hindered my play any. Ex_Mosquito did his Strikers 1945 II ALL on a similar monitor.


Well, I am not a bad carpenter, and my tools are great anyway, so I don't have any reason to blame anything.

But look here!

I wrote:
That is not to say that you cannot get good with a crappy setup. You can, if you play a lot and are talented. I am sure that several people here will come up and say they kick ass on Dodonpachi on a 12 yoko monitor with a keyboard.

But if you are trying hard and still having trouble improving, I'd bet the car I don't have that you have a shitty setup.


Edit: I'll give you an analogy which might help you understand what I am talking about.

A pro surfer can take a wooden plank and still shred. But give it to a beginner and he'll be struggling for years.

Give the noob a nice modern longboard and some good tips, and he'll be on his way to drastic improvements within hours.
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Last edited by icycalm on Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:35 pm 


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icycalm wrote:

The best competition is that amongst equals. Really.


couldnt agree more.

the most fun a shmup can offer is some tight HS chasing with a friend or two!!
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:10 pm 


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icycalm wrote:
Edit: I'll give you an analogy which might help you understand what I am talking about.

A pro surfer can take a wooden plank and still shred. But give it to a beginner and he'll be struggling for years.

Give the noob a nice modern longboard and some good tips, and he'll be on his way to drastic improvements within hours.


Ah, but that's a different thing altogether. Of course what you play with has to be of good quality and in good shape - I don't use pads with unresponsive d-pads and you don't play with sticks where the buttons are broken, even though both of us could probably still get some results when playing with them.

(Bad choice of analogy since it was directed at me, though. I'm Finnish, I have never even seen a wave that would go higher than my knees. ;) )
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:06 pm 


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Some people are better with small screens, others with larger. Commodore 1084S was my tate preference. You input does make a large difference. I tried at one point to switch to stick, and my improvement slowed dramatically. Moving back to pad I topped my stick score in DB within a couple plays.

I thought the "summer shmup goals" thread was good motivation. Getting down your goals. Also, having someone as good or just a bit better to chase gets you going. You can improve a lot in 6 month or a year. I was a 1 main game and 1-2 on the side for fun player, switching too often gets you nowhere. Also, making little plans and noticing your weak points helps. Credit feeding to see the game speeds up your improvement, makes it so that when you improve and start getting further on 1 credit you aren't in unknown territory.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:51 pm 


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I personally chalk it up to good days and bad days.

Good days I'm kicking butt and scoring like mad, wizzing past bullets that used to scare the living Count Crapula out of me.

Bad days I can't even nail the first 22 chains in Ikaruga. :P

Screensize really has little to nothing to do with it. I usually use a tiny Daewoo with Mono sound (and it bites but that doesn't really effect my gaming skill).

As soon as I find those Speakers I should be able to use my 20" monitor. *HINTHINT*
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:07 pm 


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sven666 wrote:
icycalm wrote:

The best competition is that amongst equals. Really.


couldnt agree more.

the most fun a shmup can offer is some tight HS chasing with a friend or two!!


Exactly. On EFNet #shmups, we used to hold weekly scoring competitions with an agreed upon shmup of choice. A lot of the time, it would come down to SiKrAiKeN, Randorama, and myself. Now, I'm not saying any of us three are shmup ninja or anything, but we can hold our own, and we are all of a comparable skill level, and I will tell you this... the rivalry and spirit of competition that developed, the trash talking, and the fun had by all were truly great times. We should get that started again... damn.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:59 pm 


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Ghegs wrote:
icycalm wrote:
Edit: I'll give you an analogy which might help you understand what I am talking about.

A pro surfer can take a wooden plank and still shred. But give it to a beginner and he'll be struggling for years.

Give the noob a nice modern longboard and some good tips, and he'll be on his way to drastic improvements within hours.


Ah, but that's a different thing altogether. Of course what you play with has to be of good quality and in good shape - I don't use pads with unresponsive d-pads and you don't play with sticks where the buttons are broken, even though both of us could probably still get some results when playing with them.

(Bad choice of analogy since it was directed at me, though. I'm Finnish, I have never even seen a wave that would go higher than my knees. ;) )


Well, actually, you got the analogy wrong. Unresponsive d-pads and sticks with broken pads would be the equivalent of old, half-broken, badly maintained surfboards. Or broken golf clubs, smashed tennis rackets, etc etc.

I am not talking about having well-maintained equipment. That is a matter of course. I am talking about having better, more suitable equipment.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:42 am 


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icycalm wrote:
Shatterhand wrote:
the best competition is the competition against yourself :)


The best competition is that amongst equals. Really.

Damn straight; my problem is that most of the people above me are well above me, and most of the people below me are casual gamers.

I just feel like crap if I see several good players in a row in any game. Whenever I'm at the arcade, if I see a lot of people sucking at a game and only a few playing decently, I feel too good to be with these people. But when the opposite happens, I just want to give up because even if I get better, so will these people.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:46 am 


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So what sort of hardware do you usually play your shmups on?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:33 am 


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Well Blade, I guess we differ. I find having a small monitor where I can quickly survey the entire screen to help a lot. Combined with that the downward angle of viewing it seems to put less strain on my eyes. Different things work for different players.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:24 am 


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Sorry, analogies based on sports are usually lost on me.

icycalm wrote:
I am talking about having better, more suitable equipment.


And arcade sticks and large screens aren't necessarily it. It's a matter of preference depending on the player, like Venom concurred. I've been playing with d-pads since I was six or seven years old. Hence they're much more comfortable to me than sticks, which I rarely used when I was a kid and rarely use them now.

Other people (like you, I'd guess) grew up in the arcades where sticks are the default controller, so naturally you're more comfortable with them.

There's no better or worse here.
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 Post subject: wtf
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:23 am 


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I'm a relative noob to this shmup thing,but a life-long gamer,and the recent rash of "frustrated" players/topics is kinda disconcerting.

I think a big problem is the way people use the forums.Lotsa players seem to look on message boards for strategy before ever even really playing the game!Quit letting people do the work for you.Figuring out successful strategies is a very rewarding part of playing.

I'll frickin never be a top-tier player,but damn,how I love conquering new levels,improving scores,and most of all,BLOWING SHIT UP!

Also,on a side note...ever since I saw that kid beat SMB3 in 11 minutes,I've been on a gaming tear!That video has inspired me so much.Thanx to whoever that kid is!!!!!!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:38 am 


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Before I continue this thread, I have to remark how especially calm and thoughtful this one is. Someone should put this up as a example of how to dicuss in a forum without smacking each other.

Well, I played DoDonpachi for a few weeks in a more dedicated manner, meaning 3 or 4 runs over the day plus practicing my weaknesses via MAMEstates (mainly the bosses), and I got better quick - BUT! while there was an increase of fun (damn that sounds retarded) in the beginning, after a certain time it became a chore. I haven`t played it for two weeks now. Be careful, don`t overstrain it. Like, if you`re a couchpotato, you don`t start working out 3 times a week. Start slowly, but don`t play it TOO much. I guess practicing one or two games regularly combined with some relaxed blasting in others is a fine thing and keeps you fresh. Hobbies need a proper approaching, too.

Oh, and mentioning Batrider, you should keep things like Rank in mind; especially that Batrider has the rank maxed out when you just started it - I read that you have to keep it running so the Rank decreases with time, but you better check that in the Strat section :? When I start it in Mame the game is fierce right from the start and that can`t be normal. But it`s so damn fun either way. Those bosses kick me hard if the levels didn`t before that.

Experimenting with ship types in Raizing games helped me, too. And knowledge from different games are neat too; for instance, I played Type C in DDP for quite some time - the slowest ship for careful dodging. So I chose Saber Tiger in Battle Bakraid for survial, which worked fine. Then I started playing Dangun Feveron recently with a extremely quick ship; playing Batrider after that I picked a quick ship too (Gain, from the bonus characters) and played much better than with a slow one - I reacted very differently from how I did months ago. So keep it flexible would be my advice. Especially in Batrider that has the most ship types I have ever seen in any shmup, it has more ships than Streetfighter has people.


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 Post subject: Re: wtf
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:14 pm 



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BeauZilla 002 wrote:
Also,on a side note...ever since I saw that kid beat SMB3 in 11 minutes,I've been on a gaming tear!That video has inspired me so much.Thanx to whoever that kid is!!!!!!


That video is fake.
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