4th Annual Top 25 Shumps of All Time! - Results

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue May 02, 2006 1:04 am

I might've voted for Divine Sealing, but I did not vote for R-Type Final. Let's be fair.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Tue May 02, 2006 1:17 am

Arrow Flash is higher than Super R-Type! I have fulfilled my role!

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Tue May 02, 2006 1:19 am

Fair enough! R-Type Final is the unbelievably airheaded but attractive blonde to Mars Matrix's fat chick; an airhead who demands all of your attention, forcing you to endure hour after hour of pointless babbling, only to cheat on you with everyone you bring over to the house.

...even the short chubby bald dude from work.

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Tue May 02, 2006 1:48 am

hahaha, this said by someone who voted for Bio Metal, Divine Sealing & Millipede.

What?! Millipede rocks!

...

Millipede vs. Mushi, let's go!

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Tue May 02, 2006 4:38 am

bVork wrote:...I finally 'get' MM's previously aggravating one-button gameplay.

I imagine you're playing the arcade/MAME versions: in case you're not aware, the DC port allows you to set 3 different buttons for "regular" fire/barrier, rapid fire, and piercing cannon, which makes things a bit easier.

And since the topic seems to have shifted from Mushi to Mars Matrix for the moment, I might as well toss in my cent and a half...I did vote for the game (near the bottom of the list, though) because I like a lot of what it does: the overall feel of the game is much more slick and focused than the first 2 Giga Wings (though Generations moved more in this direction), the plot (while unimportant, as always) tosses you a little twist in not putting you on the "small rebel faction" side, there's lots of extra stuff to unlock, and most importantly (to me), bullet visibility is absolutely top notch. In truth I was never bothered by the graphics, though the sound doesn't do a whole lot for me.

My main beef with the game is the same main beef I have with Radiant Silvergun, namely the fact that you pretty much MUST learn to not only dodge, shoot and survive, but also score well, not just to gain bragging rights but to simply make progress. I don't have a problem with the scoring system in itself, but on that same note, dang is it tough to get the hang of...if you can't stay alive, kill stuff quickly and efficiently, use the barrier at the right times and places, and maneuver well enough to keep the cubes a-comin', your score (and your weapon level) is screwed. Also, the emphasis on collecting items puts the slower ship at a further disadvantage. It's not impenetrable, but it does take a LOT of practice, and comes off as rather intimidating, at least to me. To its credit, though, the DC version includes replays and other stuff to help you out.

Overall perhaps Takumi's best, though not without its hiccups, at least that's my view on it anyways. Toss it on top of the already-lofty pile o' opinions, heh heh.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue May 02, 2006 5:17 am

Damn you, bulletmagnet, and your level-headed well thought opinions.

ST Dragon · Post by **ST Dragon** » Tue May 02, 2006 6:28 am

FraGMarE wrote:
ST Dragon wrote:It’s nice to see that everything maintains its Shmuping values in this forum!
I believe in the power of laughter!

Me too and judging by a few members here, we got a whole lot of that!

Good luck on your cool PCE Shooter by the way. Who knows we might even see in the top 25 one day...

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Tue May 02, 2006 6:37 am

I will say this, it really doesn't matter which shmup is the best, just so long as you enjoy each and every one of them at least a little when you play.

ST Dragon · Post by **ST Dragon** » Tue May 02, 2006 6:41 am

Amen to that!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue May 02, 2006 6:44 am

ST Dragon hates the games I voted for and when he plays them he doesn't enjoy them. And then he posts about what the two minutes playing them was like, so we can feel the power of laughter!

ST Dragon · Post by **ST Dragon** » Tue May 02, 2006 7:05 am

Hate?! That’s a pretty strong word for a list of shooters!

Actually, I have spent quite some time with most of the shooters (even 1'cc) in your list and completed Mars Matrix with a mate, using minimum credits, back when the CPS-2 emulation hype was still going, so your argument is not valid.

But, I have 1'cc most of the shooters in my list, which is something questionable about you & your list, so my views carry more authority than yours.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue May 02, 2006 7:15 am

It's a strong list, only strong words will do.

I'm not sure you've got MM quite figured out after multi-creditting it with a second player. MM like most modern shooters is really a one player game. For example, how does the chaining work? Each player individually? Do the levels offer enough chaining opportunities for 2 individuals? I don't think they do, so it just turns it into 2 people reflecting all of the patterns to the end. Boring and steamrolls the level designs.

But, I have 1'cc most of the shooters in my list, which is something questionable about you & your list, so my views carry more authority than yours.

Oh no you didn't just say that. Catty.

ST Dragon · Post by **ST Dragon** » Tue May 02, 2006 7:35 am

Rob wrote:It's a strong list, only strong words will do.

Show off!

Rob wrote:
But, I have 1'cc most of the shooters in my list, which is something questionable about you & your list, so my views carry more authority than yours.
Oh no you didn't just say that. Catty.

I’m only implying the truth there.
Prove me otherwise.

Rob wrote: I'm not sure you've got MM quite figured out after multi-creditting it with a second player. MM like most modern shooters is really a one player game. For example, how does the chaining work? Each player individually? Do the levels offer enough chaining opportunities for 2 individuals? I don't think they do, so it just turns it into 2 people reflecting all of the patterns to the end. Boring and steamrolls the level designs.

I spent more time playing it with a friend, because I simply found it more fun and worthwhile in 2P. But that doesn’t mean I didn’t take my time in 1P mode.
The level music and the Boss Tracks were catchy though, an element that is very important in my book, which would also explain why I kept coming back to it.

Like I said it’s been a long time since I last played it back when it was 1st emulated, but from the impression it gave me back then, after all the time I spent, was of a very irritating shooter and the fact remains that it does not deserve to be in 5th place.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue May 02, 2006 7:54 am

ST Dragon wrote: The level music and the Boss Tracks were catchy though, an element that is very important in my book,

Good boss/level music is nice but it's window dressing. The game isn't limited by it (I listen to whatever music I want while playing), so it's not a very essential element. I'd argue the least essential element for that reason.

Ship select screens are big point earners for me.

You should play the DC version. The control layout is infinitely more accessible.

I’m only implying the truth there.
Prove me otherwise.

Agh, 1cc'd from my list: Mars Matrix, Gunbird 2 (1r), GigaWing 2, Gradius V (2-6), Lightening Force, Giga Wing, TF3, Bio Metal, Strikers 2 (1r), Zero Gunner 2, Forgotten Worlds, Shikigami 2, DDP DOJ (1r), Giga Wing Generations. I'm not God, so I have a few favorites left to solve. Luckily, or I'd have to buy more horse racing sims.

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Tue May 02, 2006 12:28 pm

howmuchkeefe wrote:Fair enough! R-Type Final is the unbelievably airheaded but attractive blonde to Mars Matrix's fat chick; an airhead who demands all of your attention, forcing you to endure hour after hour of pointless babbling, only to cheat on you with everyone you bring over to the house.

so when she uses her valley girl interjectives, does that represent the game's inherent slowdown?

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Tue May 02, 2006 2:48 pm

so when she uses her valley girl interjectives, does that represent the game's inherent slowdown?

Works for me! A good way to separate the everpresent slowdown from the protracted periods of time where nothing happens.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Tue May 02, 2006 3:34 pm

That's just when she's "thinking".

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:29 pm

I'd also like to think that Mars Matrix is not the fat girl, but the smart girl wearing glasses in the back reading one of her favorite books for her latest intellectual inspiration that R-Type III lent to her awhile back.

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:37 pm

If you make her look kind of like a chipmunk and slap some birth control glasses on her, you have a deal!

Eps · Post by **Eps** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:48 pm

dai jou bu wrote:I'd also like to think that Mars Matrix is not the fat girl, but the smart girl wearing glasses in the back reading one of her favorite books for her latest intellectual inspiration that R-Type III lent to her awhile back.

Yes, while in the hand that isn't holding the book is an AK-47 that never runs out of ammunition, continually spraying bullets at everything in a 200ft radius

jp · Post by jp » Wed May 03, 2006 2:19 am

I'm surprised games that require you to put time into them (i.e. Radiant Silvergun and Mars Matrix) even made the list. That does not seem to be the favored flavor around here...

All I know, is I'm yet to play a Cave game where I don't get at least to level 3 on 1 life and probably somewhere in level 4 on one credit on my first try. And I'm yet to play a G.Rev shmup where I can get to level 3 on one credit on my first try, or a Treasure shmup where I can get past level 2 on one credit on my first try (I would've said level 1, but Ikaruga...).

And yes, I know virtually everyone 1CC'd Blast Wind on their first try. Sue me.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:46 am

jp wrote:I'm surprised games that require you to put time into them (i.e. Radiant Silvergun and Mars Matrix) even made the list. That does not seem to be the favored flavor around here...

Seeing as, according to the chart on page 1 of this thread, both have made the list every year since 2002, and have spent almost the entire time rising, methinks you may need to re-gauge the "flavor favor" around here, heh heh.

All I know, is I'm yet to play a Cave game where I don't get at least to level 3 on 1 life and probably somewhere in level 4 on one credit on my first try...

DOJ? Or Ibara, if that counts...

As for all the other stuff you said about how far you can get on your first try, methinks that's hardly a rational way to gauge the lasting value of a game, especially for someone who holds the act of putting a lot of time into a shmup in such high regard.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:11 am

Thankfully there's only one jp so the list doesn't get too fucked up. Cave games don't require time to be put into them? Are you for real? DOJ takes more time than RS and MM easily. Yea if you don't want a world record score you can just clear the game in a short amount of time, but the same could be said of any shooter. MM is not my fav shooter by any stretch, not even my fav Takumi, but I can respect the game's system and think it deserves a high spot on the list. You don't have to put much time into it to beat it either. I beat it years ago with almost just the pierce shot, and this was when I was very new to shooters (MM was my second 1cc, right after Giga Wing 2).

Overall a good list. Ketsui should be at the top and it would be if everyone here had played it. DOJ is the quintessential shooter to me, but DDP is a worthy champion.

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:35 am

Regarding Mars Matrix:

You don't have to put much time into it to beat it either. I beat it years ago with almost just the pierce shot, and this was when I was very new to shooters (MM was my second 1cc, right after Giga Wing 2).

Yeah it doesn't take much time compared to, say, the age of the universe. Seriously, I've had it for years and still can't reliably get past the phoenix on one credit-- it is probably the hardest shooter that I own (with GW2 being probably the easiest arcade port I have).

Additionally, I don't think difficulty level should be the deciding factor on whether a game is good or not. Sure, if you can beat it without having to react to much, it's probably not a candidate.. But a game may be bad and *also* punishingly hard.

jp · Post by jp » Wed May 03, 2006 4:45 am

NTSC-J wrote:Thankfully there's only one jp so the list doesn't get too fucked up. Cave games don't require time to be put into them? Are you for real? DOJ takes more time than RS and MM easily. Yea if you don't want a world record score you can just clear the game in a short amount of time, but the same could be said of any shooter. MM is not my fav shooter by any stretch, not even my fav Takumi, but I can respect the game's system and think it deserves a high spot on the list. You don't have to put much time into it to beat it either. I beat it years ago with almost just the pierce shot, and this was when I was very new to shooters (MM was my second 1cc, right after Giga Wing 2).

Overall a good list. Ketsui should be at the top and it would be if everyone here had played it. DOJ is the quintessential shooter to me, but DDP is a worthy champion.

Well, my point was that, with Cave games (at least the ones I have played), you don't HAVE to master them to get far. Yes, to score well you must master them. I imagine the same could be said of ANYTHING, including Blast Wind. But the amount of time one (or in theory, me) would have to spend to even clear RS or Mars Matrix would probably be a lot higher than that of a Cave game. I will admit though, I have not played DOJ or Ibara, probably never will though.

And hey! If there was more than one jp, it would just mean more Tecno Soft, Genesis, and NEC console shmups on there. *shrugs*

Well, and Saturn shmups. Heh. Of course.

But I would say 6 or so Cave games on the list? Mmmmm... kinda fucked up.

Seeing as, according to the chart on page 1 of this thread, both have made the list every year since 2002, and have spent almost the entire time rising, methinks you may need to re-gauge the "flavor favor" around here, heh heh.

You got me there. :p I was just saying though, a lot of people complain about shmups they have to "learn to play" to get anywhere in them, especially around here. *shrugs*

As for all the other stuff you said about how far you can get on your first try, methinks that's hardly a rational way to gauge the lasting value of a game, especially for someone who holds the act of putting a lot of time into a shmup in such high regard.

Eh... in my defense on that I will say, that G.Rev, RS, and MM kept me coming back for more constantly, whereas the longest a Cave shmup has remained in rotation was... 1 week or so with DDP. Haven't even taken it off the shelf since

GRANTED, now I'm playing/collecting for the PC-FX, so I should probably shut up about mediocre games and lame consoles... at least until I'm finished.

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:54 am

And hey! If there was more than one jp, it would just mean more Tecno Soft, Genesis, and NEC console shmups on there. *shrugs*

Preach on, brother!

Eh... in my defense on that I will say, that G.Rev, RS, and MM kept me coming back for more constantly, whereas the longest a Cave shmup has remained in rotation was... 1 week or so with DDP. Haven't even taken it off the shelf since

Seriously.. the arcade here actually got DDP, and I just don't *feel* like wading through several stages of bullet scrapes. I like shooters where they know how to be hard while also giving the player breathing room, or gives the player some sort of cleverly designed shield.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:04 am

There's plenty of breathing room in DDP. 70% of the bullets don't exist.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:52 am

So very true. Everyday I go to the arcade some guy is pushing through the game like it was nothing, getting 200+ million scores. Some fellow pulled up a stool, popped in a coin, and chained the whole thing his first go and didn't die until 2-6. Likely not his first try at the game, but seeing one guy after another obliterate it made me think I've been approaching these games the wrong way. As long as you know what to be looking at, the rest of the bullets onscreen are just part of the scenery. Such is the magic of manics.

Alpolio · Post by **Alpolio** » Wed May 03, 2006 6:24 am

I heard on TV that a university did a study on people who can control computer generated random numbers by just staring at the screen. And they found out that it is possible for some people to influence them!

But I'm beginning to think that they had a bunch of Cave masters in their "experimental" group, so that study doesn't seem all that fantastic to me anymore.

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:48 pm

NTSC-J wrote:So very true. Everyday I go to the arcade some guy is pushing through the game like it was nothing, getting 200+ million scores. Some fellow pulled up a stool, popped in a coin, and chained the whole thing his first go and didn't die until 2-6. Likely not his first try at the game, but seeing one guy after another obliterate it made me think I've been approaching these games the wrong way. As long as you know what to be looking at, the rest of the bullets onscreen are just part of the scenery. Such is the magic of manics.

The game's been out almost a decade, man. I'm sure there are plenty of people who got a chance to play it a lot.

Magic of manics = eye candy?