4th Annual Top 25 Shumps of All Time! - Results

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shiftace
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Post by shiftace »

OK, that works. I think it'd be nice to give it a brief mention in the main rules post next time.
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ill6
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Post by ill6 »

On the basis that we don't all like the same games what I thought might be an interesting output was to see the order of the games by particular developers. E.g. We can see what the current thinking is for the best Gigawing (this came up the other day in the forum) and questions like which is the best Cave game come up from time to time...

I don't have time right now to compile the full list but for some of the popular companies this is the order of popularity:

Cave

Dodonpachi : 6.690780 41.214400 2.269528
ESPGaluda : 4.331703 24.822400 1.572509
Dodonpachi Daioujou : 3.965313 25.540800 1.283203
Guwange : 3.692844 24.116800 1.176672
Mushihimesama : 3.545335 22.536000 1.163918
ESPRade : 3.063102 21.011200 0.920158

Donpachi : 2.674381 20.798400 0.667297
Progear no Arashi : 2.496642 17.038400 0.754829
Dangun Feveron : 2.167105 16.256000 0.573857
Ibara : 1.945929 11.531200 0.685327
Ketsui : 1.476460 8.612800 0.527553
ESPGaluda II : 0.045807 0.129600 0.024000

Raizing

Battle Garegga : 4.830168 32.619200 1.479446
Soukyugurentai : 3.560094 23.700800 1.109362

Armed Police Batrider : 2.848511 17.353600 0.976920
Battle Bakraid : 2.113686 14.627200 0.627827
Dimahoo / Great Mahou Daisakusen : 1.696466 13.360000 0.414044

Mahou Daisakusen / Sorcer Striker : 0.150095 1.000000 0.046729
Kingdom Grand Prix : 0.095189 1.000000 0.009346
Brave Blade : 0.058213 0.313600 0.022241

Psikyo

Strikers 1945 II : 3.630842 28.321600 0.901239
Gunbird 2 : 3.544523 22.579200 1.160969

Dragon Blaze : 2.438482 15.761600 0.786048
Strikers 1945 : 2.089390 15.208000 0.579071
Zero Gunner 2 : 1.823884 13.780800 0.477458

Sengoku Blade / Tengai : 1.112456 8.921600 0.262591
Strikers 1945 III / Strikers 1999 : 0.951911 6.769600 0.272643
Gunbird : 0.903550 6.904000 0.232261
Strikers 1945 Plus : 0.284996 2.000000 0.083113
Sengoku Ace : 0.260982 2.000000 0.066762
Samurai Aces(ARC) : 0.132750 1.000000 0.034919
Sol Divide : 0.092848 1.000000 0.007752

Seibu

Raiden DX : 3.232808 18.804800 1.158081

Raiden II : 1.861783 15.454400 0.410437
Raiden : 1.635097 13.044800 0.389743
Raiden Fighters Jet : 1.143131 7.089600 0.385088
Raiden Fighters 2 : 1.053198 8.115200 0.266971
Viper Phase 1 : 0.777972 6.000000 0.196900
Raiden Fighters : 0.604133 5.000000 0.134005
Raiden III : 0.415469 3.129600 0.109293 (Although this is actually MOSS)

Takumi

Mars Matrix : 5.241406 36.112000 1.565713
Giga Wing : 4.291437 29.619200 1.279040

Giga Wing 2 : 2.255896 14.675200 0.721990

Giga Wing Generations : 0.245520 2.000000 0.056235
Kyukyoku Tiger II : 0.166991 1.640000 0.022735
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Dandy J
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Post by Dandy J »

Damn, some people need to get off Cave's nutsack. I mean, they are by far my favortive shmup developer...but Mushi in the top 25? Come on, it's easily their worst game. The only Cave games that need to be on the list are DDP/DOJ, ESPGaluda, and Ketsui. Of course not many people have played Ketsui, so they can't vote for it. ESPRaDe and Guwange are good games, yes, but not top 25 good.

Mushihime? Seriously what are you guys smoking? Oh and you should be ashamed of Souky above Rayforce.

On a positive note, Mars Matrix totally deserves its place.
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Post by mice »

Hehe, you're all just treasure-fanboys, obviously. Places 2 to 4 proves this.
All Cave ever did to please you was DDP, but you all like whatever treasure throws at you. :D
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jp
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Post by jp »

And once again... the results are lame as fuck.

Big surprise there.


Good job though Zach. Glad to see Battle Garegga and Border Down actually on the list this time. Mars Matrix is about right.

Just... the Cave games... and Gradius... whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!?

I guess they're newer... and more people have played them... I do not know. So many better games out there...

Poor Tecno Soft. :( More people need to play Hyper Duel. Maybe I'll buy another copy and just start a mailing chain so it can get some rotation despite being stupid rare and expensive.
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Post by BulletMagnet »

Dandy J wrote:Mushihime? Seriously what are you guys smoking?
A few people have said this...I'll definitely agree that it isn't Cave's best, but at least in my case the main reasons I voted for it (at the bottom rung of my list, mind you) were a) the presentation, arguably my personal favorite of any of Cave's games I've played so far, and, more importantly, 2) the fact that the game included the 3 different modes, to appeal to both "old school" (original) and "new school" (maniac) fans, as well as the experts (ultra). True, the gameplay didn't offer much of anything new, but it was still executed well, with no "major" problems, and the "basic" chaining system was a little more approachable than similar systems (such as DDP's), and also offered the hardware hack thingy to further challenge serious score attackers.

Will it be expunged from the list next year? I'd say it's possible, certainly, and I doubt there'll be a whole lot of outrage (from that unstoppable scourge of Evil Mindless Cave Fanboys, of course) about it if it does drop. But honestly, I think a lot of people are indignant about its placement simply because it's not its company's "best" work: I, however, and apparently others too, am of the opinion that this game, in spite of the fact that Cave largely "played it safe," is still better than the "best" work of some other companies, and deserves a metaphorical golf clap for that. I don't think it'd be a good reason to eliminate it from my list simply because "Cave's already got other games on there better than it is," or "Cave's already got more games on the list than company xyz does." Simply put, I don't give sympathy votes.

Granted, this is just my opinion, and I'm not demanding that people agree with it, but hopefully this'll provide at least a little insight into one "dissenting" voter's viewpoint on this matter.
jp wrote:Poor Tecno Soft.
I dunno, TF3 and 4 seem to be holding their own pretty well, all things considered...look at it this way, they both beat DP, Ra.de, Progear, Ketsui, Feveron, and Ibara, as well as all but 2 of the Gradius games, and TF3 also beat Galuda, DOJ, Guwange, Mushi, and Gradius Gaiden. TF5 also made the HM list: true, they're not as high up as they once were, but they're definitely the most enduring "old-school" titles on the whole list, so I'd say they've still got ample support.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

BulletMagnet wrote:the fact that the game included the 3 different modes, to appeal to both "old school" (original) and "new school" (maniac) fans
A pretty mediocre representation of both. Aren't Dangun Feveron and DonPachi quality old school-style Cave? The three modes in this game are so overstated as a selling point. When the enemies are the same, in the same place and the bullet patterns are almost all essentially the same it's just one tiny fraction away from optional difficulty levels available in any game. Ultra is just like a loop split apart (I like this idea, but let's see it as it is), Original is like Psikyo monkey level with faster speed. And still a miniscule hitbox.

Good list, though. If Dragon Blaze replaced Mushi it'd practically be perfect!
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Post by BulletMagnet »

Rob wrote:When the enemies are the same, in the same place and the bullet patterns are almost all essentially the same it's just one tiny fraction away from optional difficulty levels available in any game.
The patterns in the different modes are variations on each other, yes, but they challenge you in different ways, namely higher speed in Original and higher numbers of them in Maniac (and everything but the kitchen sink in Ultra). I certainly wouldn't call them "different difficulty levels with a fancier name."
Ultra is just like a loop split apart (I like this idea, but let's see it as it is), Original is like Psikyo monkey level with faster speed.
I dunno, I'd say that the difference between Maniac and Extreme is more drastic than the "loops" in most games, especially if you try to go for score. As far as Original goes, I can't say I found it any essentially "easier" than Maniac (certainly not to Monkey levels, heh heh), but then again, since you play more Psikyo-style stuff than I do, perhaps you'd be better-accustomed to it, and find the smaller hitbox much more lenient than the larger hit area Psikyo gives you.

Granted, if you don't like the game then you don't like the game, I'm not telling you that your opinion isn't valid: if you think that Mushi wasn't all that great, then by all means, don't vote for it, you won't hurt my feelings, heh heh. What I AM saying, however, is that if I do think it's a good game (as I do), I'm not going to vote for something I think is inferior in its place simply because it's not as "mainstream" or "popular" or whatever as it is, which I think is the real reason that a lot of people are specially singling Mushi out as egregiously undeserving over other titles. Judging by what you said above, Rob, you apparently don't belong to that crowd, so methinks my post above wasn't intended for you. ;)
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

I'm not going to vote for something I think is inferior
Dangun Feveron is no inferior, heathen.
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Post by BulletMagnet »

...says the guy who voted for Divine Sealing. ;)
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

I should've given an extra point to GB2 so it would be above Mushihimesama.
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Post by BulletMagnet »

Hee hee, Turrican and the other R-Type Delta fans are already on your case about the Divine Sealing vote in the other thread, and now all the Gunbird 2 people will blame you for the dilemma you just mentioned. ;) It will from this day forth be known as The Vote That Will Live In Infamy. :mrgreen:
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

It truly is a lesson about voting. Every vote counts, kids! Now if only I voted in the presidential election.
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Post by Neon »

the fact that the game included the 3 different modes, to appeal to both "old school" (original) and "new school" (maniac) fans
To take that to a logical extreme: Is Madden 2006 a better game than Mars Matrix because more people bought it?

Thanks to Zack + the mods for their efforts, as always.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

Doesn't Gekioh have like 10 modes. There's a game.
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Post by Twiddle »

Rob wrote:Doesn't Gekioh have like 10 modes. There's a game.
I wish every shooter had a max-rank-all-the-time No Mercy mode and a 1 life 1 bomb no extends Stingy mode.
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Post by BulletMagnet »

Neon wrote:To take that to a logical extreme: Is Madden 2006 a better game than Mars Matrix because more people bought it?
Heh heh, I knew I'd catch flack for attempting to bring some small sense of justification to Mushi's appearance on the list. ;)

Anyhow, methinks you're kind of twisting around the point I'm trying to make with the whole "modes" thing...obviously sales figures/mass appeal (and being in a completely different genre to boot) doesn't inherently make one game "better" than another, but I'm not talking popularity here, in terms of its influence on my vote. Methinks it simply comes down to this: if you think that Mushi is a good, well-constructed game at its "core," for lack of a better word, you will find the different modes to be a good thing, that further increase your opinion of an already-nifty shmup. If you think that Mushi's not that great of a game, period, you'll find the different modes to be a moot point. And as I said earlier, I've got no problem with that: however, also realize that I (and my fellow Zombie Cave Slaves :P) didn't vote for Mushi just because of the different modes and whatnot that it offers. As mentioned above, I think the "core" game is very good, if a bit uncreative: that being as it is, I see the different play styles offered as adding a sense of variety that previous Cave games (and most shmups, period) have lacked, helping to set it apart a bit. In short, I didn't look at Mushi and say "The game sucks, but I there's lots of startup screens! Must vote!" as some seem to assume, heh heh.

All hail Pocket Mode! :P ;)
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Ko.oS
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Post by Ko.oS »

weeellll, i voted for The Mushi, cuz its easily available (unlike feveron), and original is fun to play with non-shmuppin buddies. maybe some of you guys need more friends in real life? dunno.

oh, and i also voted for ESPrade -- few things more exciting than tickling a boss for 2 hours straight....


anyways, list looks fine too me (yea, like if someone would actually give a shit!) -- good amount of horzies, RTYPE at spot no 7, batrider dropped off, gunbirdII got knocked back -- couldnt be much better really. ;)

kinda surprised to see guwange doing a comeback -- then again, the "voting-userbase" changes every year, so comparisons to previous years are, indeed, POINTLESS. sorry for the bold, the caps and the underline.

mazu-matrix at spot5 is very nice to see, by the way. also, never noticed that Delta and PSONE horzies with GERMAN* titles (Einhaender) were kinda popular on here, but hey.

thanks for reading, and take it easy.

edit: added an emoticon, to avoid getting my ass flamed by a certain TNL head (you know who you are)

edit2: *BTW
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Post by IlMrm »

Thanks Zach for all the hard work. Thanks to Turrican also for that chart.
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Post by sjewkestheloon »

my first vote and i've enjoyed the whole experience a lot. as a result i went out and repurchased the gunbird special edition pack yesterday new for £2.99 and intend to yet again get smacked around by gunbird for a while :? oh well i suppose i should put a bit of practise in as i'll be picking up the dragon blaze port when it comes to the uk in about a month's time and my mame experience with that one is that it's even more punishing...

anyway nice one for the lists etc and i look forward to next year.
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Edge
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Post by Edge »

I am ok with the results, offcourse everyone has a different opinion. But that's what polls are about. But I am kinda sad that no Parodius has made it to the HM...

Cangrats Zach, it must be pretty difficult to keep track of such a long list. :)

But I think these are the same games and where list seperately by accident:

Code: Select all

Gradius                                             :  0.702510  5.235200  0.187941
Gradius / Nemesis                                   :  0.626141  4.921600  0.153338

Code: Select all

Mahou Daisakusen / Sorcer Striker                   :  0.150095  1.000000  0.046729
Sorcer Striker                                      :  0.140212  1.000000  0.040000
Rev. Stuart Campbell
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Post by Rev. Stuart Campbell »

Next time this happens, can I save up all my votes and use them as negative points for the Thunderforce games? Truly they are the shittest shmups in Shmuptown, and people's reverence for them staggers me endlessly.
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Post by Guardians Knight »

You need to spend some time with them to appreciate them, TFV is great once you've got to grips with changing speed and weapons and number 4 is cool too once you get over the difficulty factor. I guess they are not for everyone tho...
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Post by Zach Keene »

Edge wrote:But I think these are the same games and where list seperately by accident:
It's fixed now (that brings Gradius up fairly close to the HM list). Thanks for pointing that out.
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Post by Rev. Stuart Campbell »

Guardians Knight wrote:You need to spend some time with them to appreciate them, TFV is great once you've got to grips with changing speed and weapons and number 4 is cool too once you get over the difficulty factor.
I don't hate them for being hard, man. I hate them for being dull, ugly and soulless rubbish. There are games I don't like, but understand other people liking. The Thunderforces, on the other hand, are a constant bafflement. That dedicated shmup fans could place them above classics like Raiden DX, Gradius Gaiden and Giga Wing is nothing short of astounding. (If you like stuff that resembles TF3, say, then Aero Blasters is 10 times better.) I can only attribute it to nostalgia.
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Post by howmuchkeefe »

Code: Select all

Lost In Translation: 3.545335 22.536000 1.163918
:shock:

...are you people retarded? That movie was as neurotic as it was boring and unrealistic- as if a Scarlett Johansson would ever, EVAR make time with a Bill Murray, unless he was stuffing dollar bills into her outfit! What fantastic trash.
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Post by Super Laydock »

And another big thank you to Zach Keene for all the hard work and time he put in compiling the list. :D

As for the list itself, I find it very annoying to still see DDP on top of the list.:(
I actually had hope this year would be different after glancing through the voting pages, but it was not meant to be I guess. :?
Also why people prefer this over DOJ is something I can't understand, with the latter being better in almost every way.

Otherwise I am happy very happy to see Border Down making quite a nice entrance. Giga Wing up from last year and almost making the top 10 also made me smile.

I have already excepted that my two top votes will never make the list since they're too little people have played them. Taking that in mind I am at least happy 6 of the games I voted for made it to the top 25 and can live with the results. :)
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote: If you like stuff that resembles TF3, say, then Aero Blasters is 10 times better.
No, it really isn't. No aspect of that game stands out.

There is no great reason for TF3 to be so high besides being one of the most memorable, easily playable games from the early 90s. It's not a gameplay powerhouse with an in-depth scoring system or endless replay. That's the difference between it and most games on this list, which is probably part of its appeal.
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Post by FraGMarE »

Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote:Next time this happens, can I save up all my votes and use them as negative points for the Thunderforce games? Truly they are the shittest shmups in Shmuptown, and people's reverence for them staggers me endlessly.
Hahahaha... Get the fuck off this forum, seriously. You just committed blasphemy.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

That's what happens when someone starts a game blog.
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