Battle Garegga

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Neon
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Battle Garegga

Post by Neon »

I haven't put much serious play into this game, but it seems a lot of complaints about it are unfounded...

"Invisi-bullets" as they were called on the old forum can be turned into bright yellow wads-o-laser on the saturn version (or so I've read...) as well as some versions of the PCB/MAME...

Then there's the complaint about the rank, that it 'just isn't right' that it isn't possible to 1 life the game. It seems to me kind of a silly attitude, rejecting the game because it isn't traditional. I would think it would be fun just to play the game on its own terms, though I reckon the suiciding makes for irritating memorizations, similar to complaints people have about Ikaruga. Judging from the replay tidbits I've seen it's very memorization/hidden bonus based (ex. bombing that cave to make the bats come out in stage 2) which could turn off some.

Anyone who knows what the hell they're talking about care to comment? :lol:
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peeveen
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Post by peeveen »

I never had a quarrel with the thin-grey "invisible" bullets ... if you're seeing mainly multi-coloured bullets on the Saturn version, you must have the "coloured ball" option switched on in the menu.

Regarding RANK, I'm on the side of the RANK-haters ... a shmup should be a set challenge ... it's like the bookie giving you back your bet just before your horse passes the finishing post ... unethical. :)
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BulletMagnet
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Post by BulletMagnet »

I have heard of the option to brighten the dull-colored bullets on the Saturn, though I haven't actually played it so I can't say much more about it...that would definitely be a nice little option though. I wish more developers would take the initiative to improve stuff in the home port that was askew in the arcades...

As for the rank, I guess it's sort of personal preference to some extent, in terms of whether you mind memorizing key spots to purposely "mess up" to keep the rank in check, more or less the same kind of thing as the "do you like R-Type or not" debate: it's just a personal preference. Personally, I'm not a fan of excessive memorization in a shmup, and as such dislike the concept of being "punished" for shooting more, and being forced to "suppress normal shmup instincts," such as powering up and avoiding death, to have a shot at clearing the game. Of course, Garegga's not the only game to enforce such a setup in some form or other, just the most infamous: I don't really group it separately from the rest of its brethren and single it out, but I also see no reason to hold my tongue when it comes to expressing my personal dislike for the system it enforces. Granted, it's got a lot of good things going for it, but also, as far as I'm concerned, several nasty misgivings.

In a nutshell, methinks everyone should be able to express their viewpoint on it once they've had enough experience with it to make a judgement on it: both people who like it and those who don't should let the other side have their say without worrying about being flamed, same as any other game. Me, I'm in the middle on Garegga: I don't consider it a "masterpiece" by any stretch of the imagination, but nor do I consider it "ruined" or "unplayable." You'll just hafta form your own opinion on it, same as everyone else.
dboeren
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Rank

Post by dboeren »

It seems like most games these days include a Rank concept of some kind. I wasn't really aware of it much until recently, but I've noticed that I can get significantly farther in Strikers 1945 II by not picking up more than 2 powerups.

I agree that rank runs counter to a shmuppers instincts, it's weird to be trying to "do bad" on purpose in order to prevent the game from getting more difficult. On the other hand, you can view it as a different type of challenge. You can equally claim that games with score chaining are counterintuitive because they force you to let some enemies live longer to keep the chain going or have to destroy things in a particular order. Trying to "Power Down" in Psikyo games can be an interesting challenge as well when you accidentally pick up a powerup you didn't want.

Then again, I'm not good enought to 1-life anything...
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BulletMagnet
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Re: Rank

Post by BulletMagnet »

dboeren wrote:You can equally claim that games with score chaining are counterintuitive because they force you to let some enemies live longer to keep the chain going or have to destroy things in a particular order.
To some extent you're right, but I would also take into account that most games with chaining or some other such scoring system can be played either "for survival," i.e. pretty much ignoring the scoring system, or "for score," which tries to take advantage of it, though it's more challenging. There's at least some semblance of a choice: when it comes to games with extreme rank systems, however, you're more or less required to learn how to finagle the rank system just to complete the game, whether you bother with the score or not. Of course, this doesn't 100 percent cover everything to a tee, since ignoring the scoring system in some shmups can help to lower the rank and whatnot, but at least on a basic level rank-mongering is forced, while playing for score is not.
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Rank

Post by dboeren »

Yeah, good point about that. Chain scoring games do allow you to ignore the scoring if you so choose. Makes it hard to crow about how great you are at the game though when your score is so low :)

And I forgot to mention - to me it's not so much the brown bullets that make poor visibility, it's all that shrapnel in the air! Several of the Raizing games suffer from this, you shoot things and little bits of debris fly all over. Am I the only one that feels this way, or it THAT part of what makes it so easy to not see a bullet and fly right into it?
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Ord
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Re: Rank

Post by Ord »

dboeren wrote:Yeah, good point about that. Chain scoring games do allow you to ignore the scoring if you so choose. Makes it hard to crow about how great you are at the game though when your score is so low :)

And I forgot to mention - to me it's not so much the brown bullets that make poor visibility, it's all that shrapnel in the air! Several of the Raizing games suffer from this, you shoot things and little bits of debris fly all over. Am I the only one that feels this way, or it THAT part of what makes it so easy to not see a bullet and fly right into it?
I have that problem too.
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BulletMagnet
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Post by BulletMagnet »

Ditto, though in my case that problem tends to plague me even moreso in Psikyo's games than Raizing's.
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CMoon
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Post by CMoon »

I have no problem with Garegga and not because I have masta skillz.

Single crediting may indeed be hard, but I'm OK with the idea that there are a lot of shmups I can't 1cc.

-Yes, turn the bullets into orange balls. Definitely helps, but not all bullets get changed.

-There is an option to make your hit box smaller, kinda like Batsugun special version. I don't know whether people would consider this cheating or not, but it doesn't make the game cake.

-Manage rank by not going crazy on the power ups. I basically don't pick up any power-ups the first two levels. I HAVE to pick up the power ups by level 3 and typically manage to make it into level 4. Have made it to level 5 a couple times.

For me, I have no problem with the idea of a shmup that starts smaking me down around level 4. That's what they should do. I think expert players may be bothered by rank, but look at what Rando says--adapt to the rank, rise to the level of challenge!

Anyway, it is one hell of a fun shooter with deep gameplay, fantastic soundtrack, awesome visuals and brilliant level design. That it is also immensely challenging is just icing on the cake.
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CMoon
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Re: Rank

Post by CMoon »

dboeren wrote: And I forgot to mention - to me it's not so much the brown bullets that make poor visibility, it's all that shrapnel in the air! Several of the Raizing games suffer from this, you shoot things and little bits of debris fly all over. Am I the only one that feels this way, or it THAT part of what makes it so easy to not see a bullet and fly right into it?
This problem is rediculous in Raiden 2.
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raiden
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Post by raiden »

I have no problems with rank at all. Punishing the player for playing well is just one side of the medal, the other side is making the game more accessible when starting out. So it basically just prolongs the learning curve, which can bring patience down if you´re set on a 1cc but adds to replay value.
One could also argue that letting the rank go up is not "playing well". So many shmups give bonus points for not using bombs, but the bomb is a tool to help you survive in critical situations. You are rewarded for playing against your instinct to bomb. Tactical suicides are pretty similar: By suiciding, you give up a means to get further in the game. To make the decision easier, you are even rewarded with an additional bomb, thereby replacing one tool for survival (a life) with another (a bomb).
Just this week I watched a Garegga video, and the precision this player had was so far above basic survival skills it was incredibly impressive. But that´s what score shmups are all about: giving you something to do after you learned to survive. This player, afair, spent 8 years playing Garegga regularly, and the game is designed in a way to reward such dedication.
I have no serious problems reaching stage 6 in Garegga, but I´ll probably never be able to play stage 1 in such perfection as that video showed. Still, I can always try to improve my performance and strategy, and that´s an important element of what keeps me coming back to this game.
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thesuperkillerxxx
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Post by thesuperkillerxxx »

How long did it take to get fully powered up in an old toaplan game? Now counter that with the fact that garegga will let you max out on the first stage. Now someone who owns the pcb please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a fat Toaplan chip on the board? APB has one.

Battle Garegga is a game of "take what you need, use what you take". you don't need massive power at the beginning, but you do later. Lives were meant to be lost in this game. The enemies are not stupid. If you come equipped, so will they.

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Shatterhand
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Post by Shatterhand »

I like Battle Garegga. I like it a lot.

And there was an easy way to make me like it. I just don't think about the rank. I don't get pissed if I miss a medal. I just let the game go, and enjoy it while playing it.

Indeed, my score sux (And I guess this reflects in not getting to many extra lives), but whenever I play the game, I am sure to get lots of fun.

That's the same way I play Armed Police Batrider, except when I first played, I HAD no idea of what was "Rank". I just played the game for fun. I have 1cced it a few times (Only normal mode), but my scores also aren't all that great. Batrider ranks among my top 10 shmups of all time.

So, my tip is: forget about all this shit, and just have fun with the game.

Man, since I begun stop resetting my games if I lose a life in the 1st stage (Or miss a Chain, if that's the case), I begun having more fun with them...
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Dylan1CC
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Post by Dylan1CC »

I've said it before and I'll say it again, my Saturn Battle Garegga is the best $54 I ever spent. I never had a problem with the gritty little bullets, but I can see why some would. Again though, just switch on the "red ball" option if you have the Saturn rev or a proper rom. The grittiness and dull colors of the visuals only betrays how amazingly detailed and drawn the environments, ships and enemies are.

That said, I started toying with rank back in September (i need to try it again). It isn't as bad as I feared. That said though, my rank "non-kosher experimenting" mainly consisted of sticking to 2 lives, no additional powerups (of course) one-two options but going whole hog on the bombs. :P And the pink flamingo trick on stage 2 which superkiller and others pointed me too helped greatly. After a few nights I increased my high score of apprx 1 and a half mil to over 3 and a half million. Not bad.
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Frogacuda
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Post by Frogacuda »

I've never played the saturn one, but I absolutely hate the hard-to-see bullets, distracting shrapnel, and find the firing patterns lousy in general. The rank I'm sort of indifferent on. Border Down had something similar going, and it didn't really bother me, but then in Border Down rank-cooling generally involves sacrificing score, even if it does make the game more manageable.
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Post by MadSteelDarkness »

Battle Garegga is a damn fine piece of programming. It's well-designed, beautifully detailed, and great fun to boot. Sure, rank is a factor, like in most Raizing games. But that doesn't mean you only have to play it one way (avoiding power-ups, suiciding, etc.). There's something quite exhilarating about grabbing all the power-ups you can and seeing all the shit this game starts throwing at you after that.
Shatterhand wrote:So, my tip is: forget about all this shit, and just have fun with the game.
Word.
That is great advice for any game, I think...
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